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Correct, I never said it made him physically stronger, but his Ninjutsu feats with Rinnegan are superior to when he doesn't have Rinnegan up.AstralKing7 said:
Again, something I explained in the OP.
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Naruto God Tiers Downgrade
- Thread starter IMadeThisOn8-1-2017
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Again, something I explained in the OP.
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Doing the downgrade of 5-B to Low 5-B is good I think.IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
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So...this is just going to be ignored?
Not that it would make much of a difference, but still.
Not that it would make much of a difference, but still.
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7-A should be in a different thread. I don't care about that everyone (mostly) agrees with the low 5b downgrade so kets do it so we can focus our time elsewhere instead of people stonewallingMatthew Schroeder said:
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After reading the thread and responses I wholeheartedly agree with Mindovin
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Imade Madara though scales to Hags. Look the Viz scan. It says that Pre Shinjuu Madara is getting close to him (not trying like you said but he is getting close) and he even tries to attain Kaguya's power. Either have Madara at 5B at least at his last forms (Double Rinnegan version & Rinnesharingan version) or downgrade Hagoromo too.
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There are also other points that I find flawed
>Momoshiki (Off-screen and with the help of Kinshiki) incapacitates Gyuki, the Eight Tails (who is High 6-C).What is noteworthy about this Gyuki was stabbed with numerous blades which Gyuki is exceptionally weak to on top of this being done with the help of Kinshiki.
>Off screen
>With the help of Kinshiki
You contradict yourself pretty hard here. Where is this basis of Kinshiki being the one to help Base Momo subdue Killer B and the Gyuki coming from if done off panel? Because literally nothing in the scans you posted for this remotely imply Kinshiki contributed.
Momo was the only one actually shown on panel to take on the Gyuki by absorbing and resending back a stronger Bijudama to beat it, Kinshiki did absolutely nothing except stand there the entire time. So this is a baseless assumption.
The only noteworthy part of this point is the Gyuki being vulnerable to blades, which really doesnt mean anything. We all know a Kunai isnt going to kill a shinobi, much less ninjas like Naruto and Sasuke, unless its thrown/flung by people with stats relative to the opponent. So even with the benefit of the doubt, the Gyuki isnt getting notably damaged by blades used by anything under tier.
>Momoshiki is literally held back by Shikamaru's Shadow Paralysis. Momoshiki had to absorb the Jutsu to get out of it and Shikamaru is 7-C with Shadows.
Multiple issues with this.
First of all, this is assuming this isnt just an outlier for Shikamaru instead of just some anti-feat for Momo. But thats the least of the issues with this.
Second of all, Shikamaru caught Momo and Kinshiki in it via a sneak attack. Kinshiki was focused on Sasuke while Momo was focused on Naruto. An off guard attack isn't an anti-feat.
Third, the main basis of 7-C Shadow Possession comes from Shikamaru destroying Sai's ink creatures, not just simply binding an opponent. Which IIRC is from a different variation of the Shadow Posession. And even with that, Momo was shown to be completely unphased by the jutsu. In fact, he literally extends his arm to start absorbing it a second later like it's nothing, so IDK how this is suddenly an anti-feat for him.
Fourth, your using headcanon with "Momoshiki had to absorb the jutsu to get out of it." Momoshiki absorbed the jutsu because he liked the technique. Thats it. Your own scan even shows Momoshiki saying this. Momoshiki, again, was shown to be perfectly fine in the shadow posession and easily absorbed it. Simple as this.
>Momoshiki (Off-screen and with the help of Kinshiki) incapacitates Gyuki, the Eight Tails (who is High 6-C).What is noteworthy about this Gyuki was stabbed with numerous blades which Gyuki is exceptionally weak to on top of this being done with the help of Kinshiki.
>Off screen
>With the help of Kinshiki
You contradict yourself pretty hard here. Where is this basis of Kinshiki being the one to help Base Momo subdue Killer B and the Gyuki coming from if done off panel? Because literally nothing in the scans you posted for this remotely imply Kinshiki contributed.
Momo was the only one actually shown on panel to take on the Gyuki by absorbing and resending back a stronger Bijudama to beat it, Kinshiki did absolutely nothing except stand there the entire time. So this is a baseless assumption.
The only noteworthy part of this point is the Gyuki being vulnerable to blades, which really doesnt mean anything. We all know a Kunai isnt going to kill a shinobi, much less ninjas like Naruto and Sasuke, unless its thrown/flung by people with stats relative to the opponent. So even with the benefit of the doubt, the Gyuki isnt getting notably damaged by blades used by anything under tier.
>Momoshiki is literally held back by Shikamaru's Shadow Paralysis. Momoshiki had to absorb the Jutsu to get out of it and Shikamaru is 7-C with Shadows.
Multiple issues with this.
First of all, this is assuming this isnt just an outlier for Shikamaru instead of just some anti-feat for Momo. But thats the least of the issues with this.
Second of all, Shikamaru caught Momo and Kinshiki in it via a sneak attack. Kinshiki was focused on Sasuke while Momo was focused on Naruto. An off guard attack isn't an anti-feat.
Third, the main basis of 7-C Shadow Possession comes from Shikamaru destroying Sai's ink creatures, not just simply binding an opponent. Which IIRC is from a different variation of the Shadow Posession. And even with that, Momo was shown to be completely unphased by the jutsu. In fact, he literally extends his arm to start absorbing it a second later like it's nothing, so IDK how this is suddenly an anti-feat for him.
Fourth, your using headcanon with "Momoshiki had to absorb the jutsu to get out of it." Momoshiki absorbed the jutsu because he liked the technique. Thats it. Your own scan even shows Momoshiki saying this. Momoshiki, again, was shown to be perfectly fine in the shadow posession and easily absorbed it. Simple as this.
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I also agree with the 5-B downgrade.
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Hagoromo is 5-B through his calc he performed with Hamura.╬Ü╬ƒ╬£╬Ö╬× said:
Madara's rating is based off of Six Paths Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke.
Hagoromo states Madara is approaching his level, which is true because Madara had nearly all pieces of what Hagoromo in his prime had, but the reason we can't scale Madara to Hagoromo is due to Madara never fully attaining all pieces and never do we get an update to if Madara did reach Hagoromo's level.
Obviously Madara never reached Kaguya's level, this is not up for debate when Sasuke explicitly said that Kaguya was superior to Madara.
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Im not seeing how "Approaching his level" doesnt mean Madara cannot downscale from Hagoromo.
Madara would have to be in the same league or realm of power as Hagoromo in order to be remotely considered "approaching his level".
Madara would have to be in the same league or realm of power as Hagoromo in order to be remotely considered "approaching his level".
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If I'm in a 100 meter dash race and move forward 1 meter, am I not approaching the end?
We can't downscale Madara from Hagoromo when Madara doesn't ever actually reach Hagoromo's level through statements nor through actual methods that we know Madara would have to have taken to actually reach Hagoromo's level.
We can't downscale Madara from Hagoromo when Madara doesn't ever actually reach Hagoromo's level through statements nor through actual methods that we know Madara would have to have taken to actually reach Hagoromo's level.
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@Gilga I seriously think you need to cut this shit out with your very obvious attempt to annoy Naruto fans it is honestly pathetic.
As for the rest, I honestly dont really agree with the downgrade because somethings dont make sense:
Madara approaching Hagoromo in power before he unlocked the rinnnesharingan which is likely his when he reached Hagoromos power if not before, at the very least that should scale.
Kaguya being Low 5-B for no reason despite being confirmed to be much stronger than Madara and Hagoromo.
But I am simply accepting it for consistency sake.
As for Momoshiki and Kinshiki stuff, I hard disagree with 7-A for Kinshiki. And I hard disagree with anything below Low 5-B for MOmoshiki.
Just look forward to Shadow's rebuttal. It would take a while for eseveral reasons.
As for the rest, I honestly dont really agree with the downgrade because somethings dont make sense:
Madara approaching Hagoromo in power before he unlocked the rinnnesharingan which is likely his when he reached Hagoromos power if not before, at the very least that should scale.
Kaguya being Low 5-B for no reason despite being confirmed to be much stronger than Madara and Hagoromo.
But I am simply accepting it for consistency sake.
As for Momoshiki and Kinshiki stuff, I hard disagree with 7-A for Kinshiki. And I hard disagree with anything below Low 5-B for MOmoshiki.
Just look forward to Shadow's rebuttal. It would take a while for eseveral reasons.
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All pieces of what??? Madara has the rinnegan and SOSP awakened. When he obtained the rinne sharingan he technically had surpassed Hag in being closer to Kaguya then anyone else in the series
Hags statement is clearly enough to scale Madara to himself.
As well as now thinking about it we are downplaying heavy here and being hypocritical. How are we gonna say Kaguya is very superior to Madara during her second coming and u guys are trying to rate her as low 5B just to downgrade Naruto but Kaguya for the same reason as Hag should still be 5B cause of the literal freaking statement about her being superior to Madara which can be interpreted just the same as Hags statement
U guys downplaying now. Didn't even realize until now.
Hags statement is clearly enough to scale Madara to himself.
As well as now thinking about it we are downplaying heavy here and being hypocritical. How are we gonna say Kaguya is very superior to Madara during her second coming and u guys are trying to rate her as low 5B just to downgrade Naruto but Kaguya for the same reason as Hag should still be 5B cause of the literal freaking statement about her being superior to Madara which can be interpreted just the same as Hags statement
U guys downplaying now. Didn't even realize until now.
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@Rocker Doesn't the OP say Kaguya won't be affected?
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Like I said to much 5B scaling from Kishi to try and downgrade Naruto and Sasuke. God tier in Naruto verse have in some form a way of scaling to 5B including either feats or statements
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This^^ Madara scales through Hags word. Its pretty clear. Also don't forget that the Shinjuu Tree absorbed chakra folrom both Kuramas, the shinobi alience the hokage etc when Juubito controlled it. So it serves as a power up. Also after absorbing it Madara's attaire got closer to Kaguya's with more megatama.AstralKing7 said:
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In an attempt to make his shoddy scaling make more sense(since Kaguya was fought relatively evenly by Naruto(he was losing but not getting stomped)), he proposed 2 sets of keys for her, with 0 evidence that she was any weaker in her fight with Naruto.Andytrenom said:
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^ desperate to downgrade Naruto and Sasuke to low 5B even
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Err, no? Because to be considered "approaching the end", you would have to be a distance thats notably close to the 100 meter mark in order to be considered "approaching the end". No sane person would ever consider a racer nearly finished with a race just by taking a step forward. So this is a bad example.IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
Not to mention, this is blatantly ignoring tier difference. Madara before becoming the Juubi's jinchuriki is no where remotely close to 5-B. For Hagoromo, the 5-B himself, to consider Madara approching his level would mean Madara would have to be somewhere in the same realm of power as himself to notably point that out. Otherwise, if Madara was just so completely insigifnicant in comparison, Hagoromo wouldnt have bothered saying this in the first place.
"Doesnt ever actually reach Hagoromo's level" doesnt mean Madara isnt in the same tier. Your acting like Madara needs to be exactly on Hagoromo's level to scale when thats not how this works. Madara can simply, and just as easily, be simply at a lower end of 5-B than Hagoromo is as opposed to being an entire tier or 2 below Hagoromo.
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^ that's how scaling tiers on this site literal works if no one knew
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I look forward to the same logic being applied here to be applied in every other verse.
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I agree
Crazy how Imade is the only one making arguments and no one else is giving input about why they agree.
Are the people agreeing have even have knowledge on Naruto verse??? Cause it seems not if we ignored the scaling and statements for the god tier
Crazy how Imade is the only one making arguments and no one else is giving input about why they agree.
Are the people agreeing have even have knowledge on Naruto verse??? Cause it seems not if we ignored the scaling and statements for the god tier
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Apparently not oneshotting someone tiers below you with a punch means that you actually do not completely surpass them.
Despite being confirmed as a God tier of a verse.
Despite being confirmed as a God tier of a verse.
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Maybe because Hagoromo is far above moon level? And that is before his final point where he is Low 5-B. which is what people are arguing for.
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This is actually, like, a really good point for what I just said. This if anything is very good supporting evidence that Madara was nearing Hagoromo's level to an extreme extent.Rocker1189 said:
Like I said before, Hagoromo wouldnt have bothered pointing out to Naruto and Sasuke, much less express worry to them, that "Madara is approaching his level" if Madara was completely insignificant compared to him and not in the same realm of power. So when actually being given his chakra, Naruto or Sasuke would have both just completely stomped Madara individually if he was never on Hagoromo's radar whatsoever.
But thats obviously not what happened. So if anything, Madara giving both of them a struggle after Hagoromo powered them up supports Madara nearing Hagoromo to a pretty great extent at the least.
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U do realize the difference between 5C and 5B right??Sins32 said:
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Kaguya being 5-B was being used as an attempt to rescale Naruto and Sasuke back to 5-B.Andytrenom said:
However, I rectified that be providing evidence as to why Present Kaguya was not on par with Past Kaguya who retreived her 5-B rating from Hagoromo and Hamura.
And once again, Hagoromo's statement on Madara literally states that Madara was not on Hagoromo's level, solely that Madara was approaching it after having taken necessary steps (Rinnegan and Juubi).
However, as I've explained time and time again, Madara is never stated to actually achieve this.
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You all saying Madara scales to hags via it stated that Madara is getting close to Hags power
So because Madara getting close to Hags power, therefore he can't be far below 5-B
In reality Madara getting close to Hags power only grant him At least Moon level, likely far higher rating lmao
So because Madara getting close to Hags power, therefore he can't be far below 5-B
In reality Madara getting close to Hags power only grant him At least Moon level, likely far higher rating lmao
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I literally just countered this on why your wrong here.IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
Madara not being exactly on Hagoromo's level =/= he cannot scale.
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@Sins32
This is the definition of talking to a wall.
Anyway at this point, I dont really care just want to make sure that we continue to apply this style to every verse, that is all ty.
This is the definition of talking to a wall.
Anyway at this point, I dont really care just want to make sure that we continue to apply this style to every verse, that is all ty.
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Or, or, it literally simply means Madara downscales to a lower extent of 5-B than where Hagoromo is.Sins32 said:
You cannot be Moon level and be "close" to a 5-B as thats completely ignoring the unbelieveable difference between 5-C and 5-B. "Likely far higher" is only an alludement, it is an unneccessary low end to try rejecting the rating.
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>You cannot be Moon level and be "close" to a 5-B as thats completely ignoring the unbelieveable difference between 5-C and 5-B
Yet Madara is: At least Moon level (Should be far stronger than Obito Uchiha as the Juubi Jinchuuriki), likely far higher (Was stated to be trying to get close to Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki's power)
Read His profile lmao, Get close to Hagoromo power only gave him likely far higher
So back to my question: Why you all have no problem with this up till now Lmao?
Yet Madara is: At least Moon level (Should be far stronger than Obito Uchiha as the Juubi Jinchuuriki), likely far higher (Was stated to be trying to get close to Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki's power)
Read His profile lmao, Get close to Hagoromo power only gave him likely far higher
So back to my question: Why you all have no problem with this up till now Lmao?
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I wasnt a member of this wiki when that was implemented so dont ask me that. I have no answer.
But if anything, that just means Madara's key needs to be upgraded to 5-B. Especially since his current 5-B key is literally supporting evidence for it as well.
But if anything, that just means Madara's key needs to be upgraded to 5-B. Especially since his current 5-B key is literally supporting evidence for it as well.
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Madara's current 5-B key is literally solely based on Naruto and Sasuke being 5-B.
So you're saying Naruto and Sasuke should 5-B because Madara is and Madara is because Naruto and Sasuke are... that's circular scaling.
So you're saying Naruto and Sasuke should 5-B because Madara is and Madara is because Naruto and Sasuke are... that's circular scaling.
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Was the statement about Madara being on the same league as Hago currently or was Madara carrying out a plan to reach Hago's power and the statement was about him coming close to completing that plan?
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The statement was about Madara currently still at the time trying to get to Hagoromo's power as he was incomplete.
Edit: Madara was actually given a rating because of that statement, his 5-C key is based off of that statement and Juubito who was possibly 5-C through a calc.
Edit: Madara was actually given a rating because of that statement, his 5-C key is based off of that statement and Juubito who was possibly 5-C through a calc.
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Yeah currently, which is why it would be changed to him scaling from Hagromo and Naruto annd Sasuke scaling from him, while Hagoromo scales from his feat, which is not circular scaling.IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
@Sins See? so up till now you all argue over debunked argument lmao.
Nothing is debunked it is stated in the manga. That is pretty much old scaling from before that was not changed after Madara got downgraded.
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That moon level rating was suppose to be removed some time ago since the tree size of 2000km is baseless.
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