Naruto God Tiers Downgrade (Continued)

[TataHakai]

Heisuke and Tony's votes need to be added to OP. Also I agree with Arsenal on respecting people's opinions

My bad didn't see.

 

[TataHakai]

Guys regardless of which verse is getting downgraded or upgraded, Everyone has their opinions, even if i think Imade is wrong i still respect the fact that he has a right to speak his as does anyone here. Let's not get emotional over fictional verses, at the end of the day the best we can do for the Wikia is make the pages as accurate as possible

For now we should wait for Imade's response.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

The people fortifying the downgrades are just fortifying it with no clear reason as to why, all most of them just type is I support this because of this person's arguments as it seems credible and legit over the opponent's. That's not how it works, you have to provide reasons yourself as to why and how you accede with the points made else the thread would fill up expeditiously with intransigent points. And Lately, @GoW concurs with anything regarding Naruto's downgrades without any congruous reason, I have descried this and it doesn't make sense. It appears to me as hate for the verse or something. Anyways, endeavor to be equitable in your judgement and let the thread progress tranquilly.

No you don't. Not everyone is gonna know the ins and outs of a series and a lot of arguments would simply be regurgitated, so if someone has nothing new to add to the table, it is easier to just state their agreement with the side they think is making the more compelling argument.

 

[GoddessOfWinterr-]

Not gunna lie I am sassy, but if you look at any triggers it was someone getting hostile with me first. I do avoid cursing ppl out tho. Like rocker calling me a worshipper. I'm not one to cause issues, but I do tend to make some situations worse due to my tendency to fight back when disrespected or insulted in some way

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Don't fret about it Goddess, Naruto CRTs always have a tendency to get toxic from what I've observed.

 

[Might_Path]

To add to Mindovin's point, that conclusion is pretty flawed considering that, again, Naruto and Sasuke weren't instantly curbed by Madara after Hagoromo have them his chakra. My comment from the last thread:

"To add onto the Naruto and Sasuke being strengthened bit, theres also the fact that Madara didnt instantly stomp them after Hagoromo split his power between them, despite Madaras progession of power.

Multiple times, I explained above on how Madara needs to be downscaled from Hagoromos level of 5-B. The fact that Hagoromo, the 5-B himself, flat out clarifies to Naruto and Sasuke that Madara is "approaching his power" means Madara at that point was strong enough to come up on Hagoromos radar, showing he is in the same realm of power as Hagoromo already. So thats 5-B right there.

Naruto and Sasuke combined would have been easily curbstomped by Madara if they didnt get strengthened by Hagoromos split chakra between the 2. But thats obviously not what happened. They both give significant trouble to Madara, showing they are on his level too.

Unless we're going to sit here and seriously think Hagoromo is too much of an idiot to only give them seals and not levels of power to fight someone thats relative to his own, its obvious their power wasnt just focused into the seals. This and for the reasons others brought up too."

Also, to add a bit more to the table, this "power mostly concentrated into the seals" argument is also blatantly ignoring tier difference. Even if most of the power went to the seals (which many of us still vehemently disagree with), that still doesnt necessarily mean Naruto and Sasuke arent 5-B. The differnence between tiers on this scale is ridiculous and even if some power went into these seals, granted, there is absolutely no evidence specifying a vast majority of it was. Again, Hagoromo wouldnt and isnt stupid enough to give these 2 only an ability to fight someone whos relative to him and could destroy them in seconds without some overall strengttyh increase.

Agree !

Your Point Make alot of sense ƒæì

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

The main discussion in this thread has always been about Naruto and Sasuke sacling to 50% of Hagoromo's Chakra, whether that is incorrect or correct.

Despite being the main contention, it has numerous sub points that aid into proving or disproving it.

I will go through each individual point reiterating my stance on them as well as further extrapolating even further.

Hagoromo Shared His Chakra Mostly in the Seals
In chapter 671, Hagoromo bequeathed unto Naruto and Sasuke Six Paths power in their dominant hands. Per the visuals of the buddhist-like background, we see that Naruto receives a sun symbol in his right arm while Sasuke receives a moon symbol in his left hand. What these are further revealed to us through Kaguya and her Byakugan.

In chapter 680, Sasuke reveals that the power given to them by Hagoromo was the Six Paths Power of Light for Naruto and the Six Paths Power of Shadow for Sasuke. The seals are the symbols of the sun and the moon as shown when Hagoromo gave them power and the locations are their dominant hand where Hagoromo passed this power onto them.

In chapter 681, Zetsu reveals that the power given to Naruto and Sasuke by Hagoromo was a powerful seal specifically meant to seal Kaguya. He explicitly states that they received the power to do so and that it is allocated for this specific seal to be meant on Kaguya as a powerful version of a Chibaku Tensei.

In chapter 686, we get direct confirmation from Hagoromo himself that at the moment he no longer has enough Chakra to perform large scale Jutsu due to having just given it away (to Naruto and Sasuke for the seals he has implaneted in their hands). This is further supported in chapter 690 when Hagoromo reveals he needed help and Chakra to bring back Naruto and his friends from fighting Kaguya in another dimension.

What We Know So Far:

• Hagoromo had given Naruto and Sasuke a sun and moon seal respectively in their hands.
• Kaguya reveals that they received a jutsu from Hagoromo in their hands and that it contains an enormous amount of Chakra per the Byakugan being able to see Chakra.
• Sasuke reveals that the seals in their hands are Six Paths power, thus from Hagoromo.
• Zetsu then reveals that the seals in Sasuke and Naruto's hands are directly from Hagoromo, a power they received through him, that is meant to seal Kaguya through a Chibaku Tensei.
• Afterwards, Hagoromo himself reveals he no longer has much Chakra due to having just given it away (obviously to Naruto and Sasuke for their seals).

Let's Continue:

In chapter 690, Naruto and Sasuke finally seal Kaguya using the seals given to them by Hagoromo. Per the visuals, the buddhist symbolism returns as well as the sun and moon symbols exactly the same as when Hagoromo first gave the seals to Naruto and Sasuke. Furthering reinforcing this being Hagoromo's power, not Naruto and Sasuke's.

Also in chapter 690, as soon as Naruto and Sasuke use the seals on Kaguya, the seals disappear from their hands and immediately return back to Hagoromo. The seals given to Naruto and Sasuke by Hagoromo meant for the Chibaku Tensei returned back to Hagoromo after the Chakra for the seal was used on Kaguya.

In Conclusion: Naruto and Sasuke did not provide any Chakra to perform the Chibaku Tensei, the Chakra and the Seal were are provided by Hagoromo himself.

Kaguya Proves This With Her Byakuga


Kaguya Sees the Chakra in the Seals

The Byakugan can see through objects, far distances, visualize Chakra and the Chakra Pathways.

She can't even see neither Sasuke nor Naruto's palms to see the seal.

Her vision is what we see on the scan, it's why Kishimoto drew it.

What Kaguya sees is a lot of Chakra in their dominant hands, the Byakugan only sees Chakra, far distances or through objects. We're seeing what she sees and she doesn't see the marks of the sealing, only Chakra.

Examples of Byakugan Seeing Chakra That's Not Physically Visible


Neji Under Byakugan Vision


Chakra Is Not Visible Around Neji

This is not the only time that the Byakugan has shown Chakra that is not physically visible in this exact literal manner.
When Neji's whole body was being seen under Byakugan Vision, it was the usual Chakra Network Path System in view. However, in order to counter his opponent incasing him in webs, Neji amassed Chakra all around and him to remove the webbing.

By literally doing this Neji's body under Byakugan Vision when amassing Chakra looks exacly the same as Naruto and Sasuke's hands that are holding massive amounts of Chakra.

Now, to counter the dumb claim that the Chakra wasn't visible for Naruto and Sasuke despite having such massive Chakra... It wasn't visible for Neji either when he did this, the Chakra was invisible despite having the same visuals as Naruto and Sasuke's... plus the important fact:

Seals Don't Have Visible Chakra
Yeah. Seals don't have visible Chakra surrounding them just like Ninjutsu like Rasengan and Chidori. Seals are Fuinjutsu, Jutsu like Rasengan and Chidori are Ninjutsu. Different categories of Jutsu and utilization of Chakra.

This is a bunk rebuttal that is just a false equivalency.

Hagoromo Did Not Give Naruto and Sasuke All of His Chakra
They didn't receive 100 or 200zt Chakra each since Hagoromo did not give out all his Chakra:

• Hagoromo helped re-summon Naruto, Sasuke, The Bijuu, Kakashi and Sakura with the help of the Gokages.

• Hagoromo is the one who brought the Gokages to help.

• Even after that it's Hagoromo who undoes all the Edo-Tensei and desummons the Gokage.

• Despite that, Hagoromo still had Chakra to remain in the world.

He clearly did not give out 100%, that much is fact.

Hagoromo Didn't Grant Naruto Six Paths Senjutsu

The Databook States TSB Are Gained Via Having Six Paths Senjutsu
Page 249

Ninjutsu - Truth-Seeking Balls
No rank, all ranges, offensive, defensive, supplementary
Users: Naruto Uzumaki, Obito Uchiha, Madara Uchiha

The one who carries the truth-seeking black orbs will be granted the truth of all things!!

Those who blossomed the Senjutsu of Six Paths wear these black orbs, encompassing the power of all five natures and Yin―Yang. Floating behind the user in the form of a circle, each of the orbs can be manipulated at will. Although each is the size of a fist, hidden inside those orbs is the power to easily obliterate an entire forest. By simply understanding the power of all things in creation, the black orbs can be freely altered in their shape and the multiple natures inside can be combined to reveal a variety of effects. This is a power that easily exceeds both "Kekkei Genkai" and "Kekkei Tota"!

The only Characters to achieve TSB are those who had the Chakra of the 9 Bijuu:

Sasuke obviously doesn't have Six Paths Senjutsu, he doesn't utilize Six Paths Jutsu as he wasn't given it and he doesn't have TSB.

Sasuke had Indra and Ashura Chakra, he also had Hagoromo's Chakra in him at least through the Seal and on top of that he had a Rinnegan... despite all this Sasuke did not have Six Paths Senjutsu... so what does Sasuke lack then?

There's only one answer, the Chakra of the 9 Bijuu.

So yes, Naruto naturally awakened Six Paths Senjutsu, he had the Chakra of the 9 Bijuu long before meeting Hagoromo.

Ashura Did Not Have Six Paths Senjutsu
Attempting to debunk this fact was the audacious claim that Ashura had Six Paths Senjutsu.

This is never stated nor shown in the manga nor in the databooks.

The only thing that says this is the Naruto wiki, which has no references to back up that claim. It's disappointing that wiki was used as evidence.

A moot counter-point.

Also: Six Paths Senjutsu =/= Six Paths Sage Mode

People need to stop confusing these.

Hagoromo Didn't Grant Sasuke a Rinnega


You Need Ashura and Indra Chakra to Awaken the Rinnega


Hashirama Gave Sasuke His Chakra


Kabuto Gives Sasuke Hashirama Cells

Hagoromo reveals to us how the Rinnegan is naturally awakened:
"He was so obsessed with power that he stole some of Hashirama's. Which in short, caused the merging of part of Ashura's Chakra with Indra's Chakra and result in the derivation of my own Chakra's power. That's right, the awakening of the Rinnegan."

Sasuke naturally awakened the Rinnegan, he had his own Indra Chakra and received Ashura Chakra from Hashirama and Kabuto who implanted Hashirama Cells into Sasuke, thus granting him even more Ashura Chakra.

Rinnegan = Ashura Chakra + Indra Chakra. By combining the two you unlock Hagoromo's Chakra which Hagoromo says is what awakens the Rinnegan, that is literally what Sasuke did.

Sasuke had both before meeting Hagoromo.

Something that can Hagoromo could have done is mutate Sasuke's natural Rinnegan. Sasuke met the requirements for a natural Rinnegan, but his was a unique Rinnegan as he had one Rinnegan instead of two that looked like a Rinne-Sharingan. So Hagoromo could have changed the Rinnegan, but he did not grant Sasuke a Rinnegan. Sasuke met the requirements before meeting Hagoromo, this isn't up for debate.

The Databook is Inconsistent With Rinnegan Informatio
The databook states that Sasuke's Rinnegan was granted to him by Hagoromo; however, we already know that Sasuke met the natural requirements for unlocking the Rinnegan on his own.

We also already have a Discussion Rule in place for Naruto on inconsistent databook entries:

• The Naruto databook descriptions should only be used on a case-by-case basis, depending on if the sources are consistent with the manga or questionable hyperbole.

Plus, it's heavily implied that Sasuke naturally awakened the Rinnegan when Madara states the awakened powers of Naruto and Sasuke after their meeting with Hagoromo, Six Paths Senjutsu for Naruto and Rinnegan for Sasuke. Naruto naturally awakened his powers, this is a fact. Sasuke met the natural requirements to naturally awaken his, so there's no reason to doubt the legitimacy of him awakening his Rinnegan.

Hagoromo Did Not Grant Ashura Power In the Past
This is a misconception due to Hagoromo's words being misinterpreted.

The Manga's Recollection of Ashura in the Past:


Ashura and Indra Never Received Power from Hagoromo

Hagoromo didn't bequeath power to Indra nor Ashura.
Ashura and Indra were never given power from Hagoromo and Hagoromo admits this himself when talking about their history.

Indra was born with immense power and never worked with others, he achieved greater heights by working alone and being born special.

Ashura was born a dunce and couldn't really utilize his powers. However, per Hagoromo's own words, Ashura gains power by working with others and Indra was born with his powers:

"Elder brother Indra possessed strong ocular powers and senses from birth... he always did everything by himself, leaning only on his own strength and came to understand that his powers were different and special... On the other hand, nothing ever went well for little brother Ashura from the time he was small and he couldn't do anything all on his own. In order to attain the same power as his older brother he always needed the cooperation of others in addition to his own effort."

Per Hagoromo's own words about the past, he never gave Ashura power. Ashura discovered his own true power that literally rivaled Indra, which brings me to another point:

If Hagoromo had given Ashura more power after Ashura already awakened his own inner power that rivaled Indra, then Ashura should've easily stomped Indra. There's no questioning it, it's clear that Ashura received no power, he came unto his own power.

The Databook's Recollection of Ashura in the Past:


Databook Entry on Ashura

Village: --
Rank: --
Ninja ID #: --
Birthday: June. 8th (Unknown Age) ÒüÁÒüƒÒüöÒüÄ= Gemini
Height: -- Weight: -- Blood Type: --
Personality: (Hardworking), (cooperative)

By himself, with devotion to studying and to the bonds of his compatriots, he became a hero who inherited "Ninshuu".

The second child of Hagoromo. He adored his older brother. Ashura repeatedly devoted himself to studying, aiming to be like his older brother. He was self-conscious of his own aptitude, which was insufficient (in comparison). However, by joining forces with comrades, he acquired true power.

At length from his father, he inherited "Ninshuu".

Ninshu Isn't Power


Because his own aptitude was inadequate, he sought to obtain the essence of mastering "Ninshuu", which bonded people (together).

Even the databook entry on Ashura reiterates that Ashura received no power from Hagoromo, it states that he acquired his true power through companions. The only thing he received from Hagoromo was "Ninshuu".

For those who don't know, Ninshuu is not power, it's pretty much a way of life, similar to a religion. Ashura received this from Hagoromo.


The Scans of Hagoromo Granting Ashura "Power" Don't Literally Mean Power
There are numerous scans of Hagoromo saying he only Ashura power and not Indra; however, as I've pointed out above, Hagoromo could not have given Ashura power or else Ashura would've easily defeated Indra.


Ashura and Indra Began Fighting Due to Ashura Becoming Successor

Both the databook and manga state that Ashura's own true power matched Indra's power, so if Indra ever received a power up from Hagoromo then he would've wiped the floor with Indra.
On top of this, both the databook and manga don't say Ashura received a power-up, solely that Ashura received Ninshu from Hagoromo and Ninshu is not a power-up, it's a way of life.

Hagoromo stated that he ended up with Ashura and Indra fighting after having given Ashura power; however, both the manga and databook stated that Indra and Ashura began fighting after Ashura was deemed the successor of their clan and granted Ninshu by Hagoromo:

Indra Otsutsuki Databook Page:

Village: -- Rank: -- Ninja ID #: --

Birthday: Jan. 4th (Unknown Age) Capricor Height: -- Weight: -- Blood Type: -- Personality: Individualism

Although an aloof prodigy, during the infinite wars he was a formidable god of combat.

The eldest son who naturally inherited the power of his father, Otsutsuki Hagoromo, by birth. He possessed strength that single-handedly broke through any barrier. Because of that power, he certainly discerned that he could make anything possible.

With overwhelming power and pride, he was suitable to be a successor of "Ninshuu". However, that dream was snatched away by his younger brother.

Ashura was never given power by Hagoromo, he received Ninshu and was the successor of their clan.

Conclusion
The majority of Chakra that Hagoromo granted to Naruto and Sasuke was located in their hands.

• Supported by Kaguya's Byakugan vision and further extrapolated upon by Neji's Byakugan vision that had an exact similar vision instance with Chakra and visuals.

• Hagoromo also did not even give Naruto and Sasuke 50% each of his Chakra, this is an arbitrary number since Hagoromo had Chakra leftover.

Naruto and Sasuke awakened Six Paths Senjutsu and Rinnegan respectively on their own.

• Supported by requirements to unlock Rinnegan and Six Paths Senjutsu being available only to those of the 9 Bijuu Chakra (supported by TSB databook entry that remains consistent with the manga).

• Ashura didn't have Six Paths Senjutsu, literally nothing in the manga nor databook says this.

Ashura was never given power by Hagoromo.

• Both the databook and manga explicitly state that Ashura received Ninshu (which isn't a power up, but a beliefe system) and the role as the successor to their clan.

• Ashura and Indra began fighting due to Ashura being named successor and receiving Ninshu (supported by both manga and databook).

• Ashura would've washed Indra if he had power from Hagoromo (everything stated that Ashura's true power he awakened matched Indra's).

Naruto and Sasuke aren't 5-B.

 

[BlackeJan]

Goodness IMade can type fast....

Well here it is. Read IMade reasoning and the refutal and let's get this over with

 

[Rocker1189]

This just the same old shit over again that Tata and others have debunked, Imade, dont try to pretend that this is new...like I dont even care anymore, but this is the same. old. tired. shit.

 

[GilgaArcuied]

I agree with IMade.

 

[AstralKing7]

Am I the only one who realizes this is the same stuff who posted the last time?????

 

[Rocker1189]

No, I realise it too, I dont get the point of rewriting your argument. Just say you stand by it, at this point it is just which you believe.

 

[Damage3245]

I mean, a lot of what IMade is posting doesn't look like it has been debunked.

For instance; if people think Ashura was granted 100% of the Sage of Six Path's powers, how could Indra have possibly fought agaisnt him?

IMade's conclusions all look legit.

 

[EviLMinded358]

I just read through IMade's counter arguments and it seems to me like he's rewriting what Tata and others already gave counters to.

 

[KLOL506]

I just read through IMade's counter arguments and it seems to me like he's rewriting what Tata and others already gave counters to.

Same.

 

[GilgaArcuied]

I don't think much if any of what IMade has said has been discredited either. Kep agrees aswell sooo...

 

[BlackeJan]

Where's the others at? We need this done and over with

 

[Omimi]

doesn't matter that jutsu only allow to create the moon which probably not even 5-C

moon lifting is not even part of seals anyway

 

[Omimi]

I mean, a lot of what IMade is posting doesn't look like it has been debunked.

For instance; if people think Ashura was granted 100% of the Sage of Six Path's powers, how could Indra have possibly fought agaisnt him?

IMade's conclusions all look legit.

we debunked it with hagoromos own words

its probably mean that indara and ashura each inherited half of the power from birth just like hagoromo and hamura


and also ashura incarnate always hold back against indara incarnate(just my opinion)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This thread is a competiton of who can write the largest post.

 

[Rocker1189]

And who can just repeat their debunked point over and over.

 

[KLOL506]

Part of the reason I'm contributing more to the battle against K-Pop instead of this godforsaken thread.

Even Goku vs Superman never got this heated. Ever.

 

[The_Causality]

Ok now a serious question: How can we conclude this shit? Votes? peoples doesn't want. Endless Wall of Text? even Trump doesn't make wall as huge as that. so what?

 

[BlackeJan]

That's what I was thinking. We have more disagreeing to the downgrade however but we keep going around in circles

 

[Spinoirr]

This is a mess, but I am going to watch this

 

[TataHakai]

Ok now a serious question: How can we conclude this shit? Votes? peoples doesn't want. Endless Wall of Text? even Trump doesn't make wall as uge as that. so what?

I'm not sure either

I can reply to and debunk all of Imade's points but he'd just reply with the same thing, people will see *wall of text* and assume he's automatically right despite him literally contradicting himself with his own arguments.

Guess i'll reply again? This argument is kind of getting tiresome at this point.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Keep hasn't had his chance to say his piece, so I would feel it'd be best advised to wait for him at the very least.

And this is indeed a mess, but the attitude of a lot of the more small time commented doesn't help.

 

[Omimi]

well we are waiting for him

 

[BlackeJan]

Kep has already gave his piece beforehand. Right now it's just about getting this over with even though most people disagree with the downgrade

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Even Goku vs Superman never got this heated. Ever.

TBH, this is why in the last year or so, I've stopped actually arguing on Naruto and even Bleach CRTs and just state who I agree with and leave it at that.

I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't be surprised if some other users just take this apporach. People want to show their support for whatever side but don't want to deal with the raging minutiae of what's going.

If I'm being honest, everytime I see a Naruto thread, I suddenly feel very tired before I ever even read what's going on.

 

[KLOL506]

Even Goku vs Superman never got this heated. Ever.

TBH, this is why in the last year or so, I've stopped actually arguing on Naruto and even Bleach CRTs and just state who I agree with and leave it at that.
I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't be surprised if some other users just take this apporach. People want to show their support for whatever side but don't want to deal with the raging minutiae of what's going.

If I'm being honest, everytime I see a Naruto thread, I suddenly feel very tired before I ever even read what's going on.

TBF, I might opt out of Naruto and Bleach CRTs altogether because of this.

I mean, it's a site for having fun, people, not to cripple your health over who's got bigger muscles.

Now I understand Filthy Frank's pain.

 

[Rocker1189]

Funny thing is, it is not the Naruto side that cares about having the bigger muscles.

 

[AstralKing7]

THIs^

 

[KLOL506]

I mean, they're just fictional characters.

This is part of the reason society hates us so much.

Also part of the reason Joji now has a successful music career.

Is there no way this thread will end peacefully?

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Wow...im late to th8s party.

 

[Omimi]

probably not lol

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Except Rocker, "this side is totally not the one to x and y" is how you cause problems. Forget there's a "Naruto" side. Some agree, some disagree, and some could really take a chill pill about the whole issue.

Comments like that are divisive by nature. And no, Kep hasn't really finished saying what he thinks. He literally said before he doesn't agree with the 50|50 chakra thing but he had more to say for later.

 

[TataHakai]

Alright then, i'll let Kep comment before i reply, in case i need to counter both Kep and Imade?

 

[Rocker1189]

I mean, it is true, all you have to do is observe who cares about other verses and their relation to Naruto.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

... considering many who agree are Naruto fans, and many who disagree because of Tara's reasons (Matthew) are not last I heard, I very much disagree on that.