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My Little Pony: City level Reasons?

Antvasima said:
We already know that the alicorns are 4-C via hax that is unusable for combat purposes, and that Discord is similarly 4-A via hax.
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We don't actually. The whole point of that being rated as hax wasn't on an in-canon basis or anything, it was just that they don't have feats to back it up. With a Large Planet level feat that isn't based on their Sun/Moon moving magic it is indicative that they are capable of doing things around this level without the use of this magic.

It would be as if a character had a universe creation feat most of their combat feats were with other characters and as such didn't cause much destruction, so we assumed that universe-level was hax only. But then later on they have a Galaxy level destruction feat, which would indicate they can do Universe level output and we've just been interpreting it wrong.
 
The issue is once again a 5-A feat is nowhere remotely comparable to 4-C. I'm not the most knowledgable on MLP, so perhaps these aren't outliers/hax based and their AP is on that level. However a Large Planet feat doesn't automatically make 4-C consistent.

This feat especially would not make Discord's 4-A via hax rating consistent, which gap is at a point of using a Wall level feat to justify Multi-Continental ratings.
 
Ryukama said:
The issue is once again a 5-A feat is nowhere remotely comparable to 4-C. I'm not the most knowledgable on MLP, so perhaps these aren't outliers/hax based and their AP is on that level. However a Large Planet feat doesn't automatically make 4-C consistent.
This feat especially would not make Discord's 4-A via hax rating consistent, which gap is at a point of using a Wall level feat to justify Multi-Continental ratings.
Click to expand...
This is the same reasoning used on most forums to have Cell's Solar System statement be considered hyperbole. The fact that there's a billion/trillion times difference between their other feats and Solar System level.

The problem being that writers could not care less about math. In their heads tiers go Planet < Star < Solar System. They don't actually care about how mathematically big the difference is as long as the audience gets "Wow they just moved the Moon."
 
I personally think that the star feats makes more sense for the verse if we use the moon feat, even if it's that far away from Star Level. At least "Planet Level who can move stars" makes more sense than "Town Level who can move stars", but that's just my opinion.
 
@Xcano The gap between Cell's 4-B statement and prior DB feats/scaling isn't nearly as high as 5-A and 4-A. Even then this is a discussion on whether a feat is consistent. Not whether a statement is a hupebole. So this case isn't exactly look Cell's.

Also just because the authors don't know the mathematical implications of What they write, doesn't mean we should accept fears that are vastly inconsistent than the rest of what a character's showings and established power levels are.

By that logic, why even rate MLP this high in the first place? As you said the authors don't know math, so they didn't intend them to be this powerful.

We rate characters on what is consistent and logical here. Not on what the authors knew or had in mind. If the gap between one feat and all others is far too high, then it should be considered an outlier.
 
@Ryu The gap between the high-end of my calc and the low-end of Star level is about 100,000x. The gap between Frieza's calc and the lower bound of Solar System is over 300,000x. Not to mention there are 4 big feats in DBZ, 1 of which was Large Planet and 2 of which were 300,000x less than Solar System level. I'd say that this is a lot more consistent than DBZ is.

The problem being that you're applying "vastly inconsistent" with math. That isn't how inconsistency is measured, it's measured through narrative.

They didn't intend for them to be Large Planet level, yes, but the whole point of that scene at least intends that they are capable of physically moving the Moon through brute force rahter than their raising/lowering magic.

Again, you're assuming inconsistency is measured through math when it is not. There are far, far more implied or explicit galaxy level and universe level feats for Post-Crisis Superman than there are planet level feats. I can recall about 6 off the top of my head. By the logic you're proposing Superman needs an upgrade to Galaxy level, as that's more mathematically consistent than Star level.

Yet we don't do that, because within the context of the story a Galaxy level Superman doesn't make sense. It's way more consistent than what we have him as now, but it also isn't narratively consistent with what the authors are trying to convey.
 
I was talking more about the gap between your calc and Discord's 4-A, which is extraordinary higher than anything DB. But once again this is a series that isn't DB and a topic that isn't involving statements rather outliers. So there's no point comparing these examples.

And according to our outlier page, "An Outlier is an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power."

If a feat has a mathematical value that is far higher than what the rest of a character's showings are, then that will be taken as an outlier. We do indeed dictate inconsistent feats on the math behind as well and not just "naritively."

Also you keep using authorial intent, which we also don't value over logical, mathematical consistency, to dictate that the "scene at least intends they are capable of" but then admit that the authors likely didn't intend MLP to be this powerful. You're using author intent to upgrade a feat yet disregard it if it means them being rated lower.
 
1. They are perfectly comparable. DBZ is Solar System despite a 300,000x difference based on a statement. This is a proposal of an upgrade to just Star level based on 3 (maybe more) separate feats around or above that tier.

2. That quote leans neither way with math or narrative. And if the math behind outliers is so important then a solid 99% of weather manipulation calcs need to be thrown out. I can recall possibly 2 instances in which the value gained from "summoning a thunderstorm" matched up with their destructive feats.

3. I said that you're right, that they didn't intend the scene to be Large Planet level. But given that the scene at its bare minimum, the entire feat around it, is moving the Moon it would mean they intend to show us they can physically move the Moon around.
 
There are other factors to consider for DB, such as the fact that Cell was in a brand new transformation, which would make it appropriate for having much greater value, and that no one scaled to him except Gohan once in his brand new transformation. So it being an outlier would not be as big of an issue in that case. But even then, just because we might have inappropriately upgraded a series in the past, would not mean we should elsewhere.

The quote says it's something that is inconsistent with a character's regular levels of power. If someone performs a feat that is calced to vastly higher than their normal display of power, then would that not be an outlier? As it is a feat inconsistently above what is normally displayed.

Once again, you're saying that the star feats weren't based just on hax because entirely different feats performed in entirely different ways in entirely different events imply the author intent doesn't sway that way. Yet say we should ignore the author intent isn't for them to be that powerful in the first place. You're choosing what parts of the author's intention we should value and which to disregard.
 
I think were going a little overboard on what is an outlier.

Moon<Planet<Star<Solar System is a definite yes since time has passed and training has been done. If MLP follows the same progression like 5-A<4-C, I dont consider it an outlier if time has passed and some sort of training was done.

But this "regular show of power" thing would cripple many series especially DB.

Grand feats that show progression in power happen every once in awhile and is not something that happens every other episode(or whatever form of media it is).

To judge if its an outlier or not we gotta look at the lower showings of power because for example in DB they have a bunch of 8-C to 7-A feats because they have no motive to show anything further as they want to keep the destruction to a minimum so they condense the power of their attacks.
 
1. The issue being DBZ wasn't inappropriately upgraded, the Cell upgrade had valid reasoning behind it. I'm saying you are placing far too much emphasis on math when fiction is a primarily qualitative medium, not a quantitative one.

2. Just about any "high-end" feat that just about every single one of our profiles is based on is an outlier by the definition you're giving it. This is why I hold that "vastly above" is purely narrative based, not in quantity. As a few examples of this:

  • Superman being Star level instead of Galaxy level, despite the latter having far more feats than the former
  • Sora being Star level despite his best destructive feat being City Block (IIRC)
  • RWBY being MCB from 2 feats, only one of which was directly destruction based
  • FF7 being FTL based on one feat which was travel based anyway
  • Almost every god-tier in EU Star Wars being scaled to one feat
  • Bowser being Country level at a minimum from a feat that doesn't even involve destruction
3. What I'm doing is getting a balance of authorial intent and feats that we see, while you seem to be basing everything entirely on math. The issue with that being that determining outliers via math would make the following things outliers:

The logic behind this is simple, most series are Earth-bound. Even the ones in space tend to keep around planets. In addition, having most feats be over City level would make the series seem over-the-top and ridiculous, so the feats that are supposed to be impressive lose their value.

Because of this every series, without fail, will have most feats in Tier 9 to Tier 8, only getting the feats that support where we rank them once, maybe even three times if it's lucky. But mathematically, all of those would be outliers.

It's the same thing here. There are several feats supporting Star level, the fact that there's even a Large Planet level feat in a series that is entirely Earth-bound is extremely impressive. Because of this, saying that Star level is an outlier in a series where it is literally impossible to have any feat above Continental (lest the plot be ruined) during combat seems a tad ridiculous.

tl;dr You're giving excuses to other series that have the same situations (sometimes even less justification) while also turning a blind eye to narrative constraints
 
I totally agree with Cano and Radical. It's getting pretty insane how we consider the Island, Planet and Star feats to all be outliers at this point.
 
I said even hypothetically if Cell was upgraded inappropriately. Not that I disagreed with his rating. I even said reasons why Cell's case would be less likely to be inconsistent that vary from this case, none of which you've addressed. But again, there's no point discussing a different series all day trying to nitpick less relevant comparisons.

And I've said before "I'm not the most knowledgable on MLP, so perhaps these aren't outliers/hax based and their AP is on that level."

What I am saying is that the feats in question are far below the levels you are suggesting. Room to Multi-City Block type, far further apart if we're considering Discord's 4-A rating.

Now this doesn't mean that these low levels automatically discredit higher feats of MLP. What I am saying is that I do not see how these low ends now support the high end feats.

If it's decided that Tier 4 MLP isn't inconsistent, then I am fine with that. But what appeared to be happening is that people are saying Tier 4 is an outlier until 5-A feats came along.

TLDR: I'm not entirely saying that the high end feats are outliers. Just that the lower end feats don't support high stuff being consistent. Just as a Room level feat wouldn't be a good argument for MCB being consistent. Even if MCB is accurate.

Not trying to say low ends disprove high ends (though I could see why one could think that I am), rather than the low ends also don't prove the high ends.

Either way we should certainly wait for Antvasima to comment before any major changes occur.
 
Oh yeah I agree, it's not like Tier 4 is a "consistent" I just think it's "consistent enough." Multi-Solar does seem pretty far out there though, I think it could be mentioned but only to back up Tier 4 in general.
 
Well, I've given multiple opinions on this topic over periods of time, so I might as well add some stuff here.

  • As has already been mentioned, Spike has a casual 8-A feat. It's not just like Spike is a relatively weaker character who is still considered on par with the rest of the cast. It's that his usefullness is often treated as an actual joke. The Power Ponies episode's whole plot was centered around the idea of Spike not being as useless as he seems, and even that wasn't via pure power. Pretty much all MCs who actually have any sort of combat experience whatsoever should logically scale to Spike.
  • The Alicorns (and by extension characters like Discord, Sombra, love-boosted Chrysalis, etc.) are considered absurdly powerful demigods compared to the verse's regular inhabitants. Scaling them to someone like Spike as low as Spike would be hideous downplay.
  • As for city level stuff as brought up in the OP, Discord simultaneously warped the entirety of multiple cities even while not entirely focused. In his prime, he was implied to have done so to the entire country/continent of Equestria, but we don't get to see him do this. After getting his ass handed to him, Sombra basically made the entire main city of the Crystal Empire vanish with him out of spite. Discord made a volcano erupt. I'm sure there's more, but this is just a few off the top of my head.
  • What was the result of the moon pulling calc, again? Because I am completely fine with using that for AP and durability reasoning for anyone involved or that it scales to, as it is a straightforward feat.
People may remember that I was staunchly against rating the verse's top tiers as Tier 4 all around, and I still am. Does this mean I am against them being able to perform feats of that level? No, as they do indeed have those feats, they just don't use them in a directly combat oriented sense. For instance, Discord can indeed use his powers to easily twirl the sun and moon around in the sky, along with affecting multiple stars. This does not mean he's constantly tossing out MSS levels of power, nor does it mean he can tank a bunch of MSS level attacks (from things that could actually bypass his supernatural resistances and all). It does however mean he can perform feats of that level to his advantage, while not equating to "I'm going to blow up a big chunk of the galaxy, now".

Let me provide a couple of examples from other franchises for comparison. First, we'll look at random Chaos Daemons in Warhammer 40k. When daemons manage to create a big enough breach into realspace and flood in, they can do all sorts of crazy things such as surround planets in pure darkness, twist entire suns into leering faces, or cause global quakes as the ground splits open and spews out otherworldly ichor. Does this mean any random warband of daemons can perform straight up attacks of this level whenever they want? Nope. This is purely a result of their reality warping abilities, and something like a Krak missile will still blow apart the majority of lesser daemons' physical forms. This is similar to what characters such as Discord and the Alicorns can do. High-end reality warping that, while still useful, does not directly translate to AP or combat abilities, though that does not mean it cannot be used as such.

On the other side, we can look at characters like Majora from the Legend of Zelda. While Majora's feat of pulling down a moon and destroying the world is done with magic, Majora shows the ability to stand at the epicenter of the cataclysm it causes and come out unharmed, showing this is an actual level of power and durability it possesses, and not purely reality warping/magic. If something of this nature happens in MLP, it would of course scale to their regular statistics in all circumstances. Since it hasn't, it is much closer to the first example. However, it is important to remember, this does not mean said magic and reality warping is useless in combat by any stretch. Simply that it isn't a direct measure of sheer force.
 
Excellent. As I said, considering the straightforward nature, it'd probably be a good place to go for current max raw power of the top tiers.

I just thought of something the calculation assume it in Orbit but it's not the moon and sun in mlp are stationary and the pull of gravity from Equestria has no affect on them so shouldn't the calculation use the force needed to move it through space at that distance instad of moving the moon in to the that earth atmosphere?
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
  • As has already been mentioned, Spike has a casual 8-A feat. It's not just like Spike is a relatively weaker character who is still considered on par with the rest of the cast. It's that his usefullness is often treated as an actual joke. The Power Ponies episode's whole plot was centered around the idea of Spike not being as useless as he seems, and even that wasn't via pure power. Pretty much all MCs who actually have any sort of combat experience whatsoever should logically scale to Spike.
  • The Alicorns (and by extension characters like Discord, Sombra, love-boosted Chrysalis, etc.) are considered absurdly powerful demigods compared to the verse's regular inhabitants. Scaling them to someone like Spike as low as Spike would be hideous downplay.
Click to expand...
I understand that Spike is very weak and that there are many others that are greatly above him. Just that if no one else in the series has a feat above 8-A, then one possible solution would be scaling to him over a lack of a better option. Though since later said in this thread and calced there are a lot of much higher feats, so that is no longer an issue.
 
Darkmon cns said:
I just thought of something the calculation assume it in Orbit but it's not the moon and sun in mlp are stationary and the pull of gravity from Equestria has no affect on them so shouldn't the calculation use the force needed to move it through space at that distance instad of moving the moon in to the that earth atmosphere?
Click to expand...
MLP cosmology is similar to our ow and in addition the Moon is shown to be realistically far away from the planet
 
LordXcano said:
Except they aren't moving it just through space, they move it really close to the Earth.
Click to expand...
Yes and the gravity of that planet dose not affect the moon and the gravity of the sun dose not affect the planet so it should be the same as moveing a object that was in stand still in space that is what should be calculated.
 
Moving an object in space that wasn't moving initially isn't any different from what I calculated since I didn't account for them stopping its orbital KE
 
LordXcano said:
Moving an object in space that wasn't moving initially isn't any different from what I calculated since I didn't account for them stopping its orbital KE
Click to expand...
It's very different.
 
The KE formula has nothing to do with gravity or the atmosphere. It's based purely on mass and speed. Also both of those equations are the same due to order of operations.
 
Blahblah9755 said:
The KE formula has nothing to do with gravity or the atmosphere. It's based purely on mass and speed. Also both of those equations are the same due to order of operations.
Click to expand...
yes but that starting at 0Gs in space the rules should be defrent.
 
Again, the regular KE formula doesn't account for gravity, so there's no difference.

If you get hit by something, the strength of gravity has no bearing on the impact, and that's what KE accounts for, the impact.
 
Blahblah9755 said:
Again, the regular KE formula doesn't account for gravity, so there's no difference.
If you get hit by something, the strength of gravity has no bearing on the impact, and that's what KE accounts for, the impact.
Click to expand...
but this is over a destenc normly when your moveing something gravity is constnly contering it not just swinging a punch but moveing something over a destens which gravety should affet frother more in 0gs ones it starts moving it will not stop so ones a serten speed is acheved it will stay lessening the over all force recriered.
 
Again, the KE equation is the energy of the motion or impact, it has nothing to do with the force needed to accelerate to this point, or to counter the force of gravity. Whether it's under 0Gs or 1,000Gs the impact will have the same energy.
 
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