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MLP Cosmology Upgrade (Low 1-C)

I agree! Not really impressed by the counters thus far. One of them was begging the question for things that were already accepted in another revision, another was addressed by the OP in-depth.
 
Ayo alright, I have already counted the votes. Does anyone know what else is needed for the application of the changes with the current votes?
 
ArzCosmos_888 said:
Agree (5D): 10 - @TheShape03, @HenshinIntervention, @Brogeefrong, @JohnConquest1, @Georredannea15 (Possibly), @PonePoster, @CinnabarManx421, @Robo432343, @Phoenks and @ProfectusInfinity.
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JohnConquest1 said:
Following.
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Phoenks said:
Urgh, following. Didn't see this one coming.
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I could be wrong, but I think that saying "following" does not mean that you agree with the thread, but rather that you are leaving that comment to receive notifications of upcoming comments. Is that so? (Otherwise it would be easier to say "I Agree" :v).
 
Also, I checked the MLP profiles. It seems that the Low 1-C was not added to them yet. So I am guessing it will be done in conjunction with this? So I am just going to voice my objections for the staff that will comment on here, especially since this going to be used as a basis for this upgrade:

This scans is being used as evidence that there are uncountably infinite dreamscapes:



This is not enough evidence for Low 1-C and I can easily say it in three statements:

1. "A hallway. There's always a hallway" is not synonymous with adinfinitum hallways.

2. The logic is broken: If every doorway led to a hallway with infinite doors which each lead to a new hallway with infinite doors that lead to a newer hallway etc. etc.? Where are the doors with that lead to the dreamscape that we clearly see? And there is no evidence that hallways have both infinite doors that lead to new hallways and dreamscapes simultaneously.

3. There is no scan of characters opening a doorway that leads them to new hallway. So we cannot assume that behind those doors are hallways and not dreamscapes that we see. We see the characters walk through the hallway and then automatically end up in a new hallway. We don't see any hallways connected to the hallways shown. They're just straight lines with doors on both sides.

Also even if there were infinite hallways each with infinite dreamscapes, that is only infinitity^2 which is still Aleph-0 and therefore not eligible for Low 1-C which is infinity^infinity.

And I have already explained why the storybooks don't count towards Low 1-C being below the baseline of the story per our current standards.
 
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TheShape03 said:
I could be wrong, but I think that saying "following" does not mean that you agree with the thread, but rather that you are leaving that comment to receive notifications of upcoming comments. Is that so? (Otherwise it would be easier to say "I Agree" :v).
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we need 3 staffs for this upgrade
 
ArzCosmos_888 said:
Ayo alright, I have already counted the votes. Does anyone know what else is needed for the application of the changes with the current votes?
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both JohnConquest1 and Phoenks didn't agree, they just followed the crt.

And to apply you need 3 votes, in this case of level 1, more than 5 is suggested.

The votes that count are administrators, thread moderators and bureaucrats.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
Also, I checked the MLP profiles. It seems that the Low 1-C was not added to them yet. So I am guessing it will be done in conjunction with this? So I am just going to voice my objections for the staff that will comment on here, especially since this going to be used as a basis for this upgrade:

This scans is being used as evidence that there are uncountably infinite dreamscapes:



This is not enough evidence for Low 1-C and I can easily say it in three statements:

1. "A hallway. There's always a hallway" is not synonymous with adinfinitum hallways.

2. The logic is broken: If every doorway led to a hallway with infinite doors which each lead to a new hallway with infinite doors that lead to a newer hallway etc. etc.? Where are the doors with that lead to the dreamscape that we clearly see? And there is no evidence that hallways have both infinite doors that lead to new hallways and dreamscapes simultaneously.

3. There is no scan of characters opening a doorway that leads them to new hallway. So we cannot assume that behind those doors are hallways and not dreamscapes that we see. We see the characters walk through the hallway and then automatically end up in a new hallway. We don't see any hallways connected to the hallways shown. They're just straight lines with doors on both sides.

Also even if there were infinite hallways each with infinite dreamscapes, that is only infinitity^2 which is still Aleph-0 and therefore not eligible for Low 1-C which is infinity^infinity.

And I have already explained why the storybooks don't count towards Low 1-C being below the baseline of the story per our current standards.
Click to expand...

If you want to disagree with level 1 because of dream logic, I recommend making another crt about it.

I don't think it's a good idea to bring this into this crt.

At least that's my opinion.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
If you want to disagree with level 1 because of dream logic, I recommend making another crt about it.

I don't think it's a good idea to bring this into this crt.

At least that's my opinion.
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I did not disagree because of dream logic. I disagreed because there isn't evidence of infinity^infinity dreamscapes, only infinity^2 at best which does not meet the standard for tier 1.

I would not need to make another CRT thread because this one is using the same evidence. Not to mention, the previous one it refers to has not been implemented on the profiles.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
I did not disagree because of dream logic. I disagreed because there isn't evidence of infinity^infinity dreamscapes, only infinity^2 at best which does not meet the standard for tier 1.

I would not need to make another CRT thread because this one is using the same evidence. Not to mention, the previous one it refers to has not been implemented on the profiles.
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Yes, but it was something that was accepted (although I don't know why it was implemented in a profile)

I just think you would have more visibility by doing another crt. But if you continue with this crt, it's fine.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
Yes, but it was something that was accepted (although I don't know why it was implemented in a profile)

I just think you would have more visibility by doing another crt. But if you continue with this crt, it's fine.
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Personally I think it would be redundant if changes haven't been applied, and would probably be applied if this go through. But if staff, thinks a separate CRT should be made. Then I'll gladly do that.
 
I have said many times before that, despite my other interests, and what my profile pictures may lead you to believe, I am by no means any authority on MLP lore. I am not as familiar with it as one might think.

Additionally as stated in several places on this forum, I am not a VSB staff member. I am only staff so far as FC/OC is concerned.

I did not vote on anything here.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
I did not disagree because of dream logic. I disagreed because there isn't evidence of infinity^infinity dreamscapes, only infinity^2 at best which does not meet the standard for tier 1.

I would not need to make another CRT thread because this one is using the same evidence. Not to mention, the previous one it refers to has not been implemented on the profiles.
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Iamunanimousinthat said:
Also, I checked the MLP profiles. It seems that the Low 1-C was not added to them yet. So I am guessing it will be done in conjunction with this? So I am just going to voice my objections for the staff that will comment on here, especially since this going to be used as a basis for this upgrade:

This scans is being used as evidence that there are uncountably infinite dreamscapes:



This is not enough evidence for Low 1-C and I can easily say it in three statements:

1. "A hallway. There's always a hallway" is not synonymous with adinfinitum hallways.

2. The logic is broken: If every doorway led to a hallway with infinite doors which each lead to a new hallway with infinite doors that lead to a newer hallway etc. etc.? Where are the doors with that lead to the dreamscape that we clearly see? And there is no evidence that hallways have both infinite doors that lead to new hallways and dreamscapes simultaneously.

3. There is no scan of characters opening a doorway that leads them to new hallway. So we cannot assume that behind those doors are hallways and not dreamscapes that we see. We see the characters walk through the hallway and then automatically end up in a new hallway. We don't see any hallways connected to the hallways shown. They're just straight lines with doors on both sides.

Also even if there were infinite hallways each with infinite dreamscapes, that is only infinitity^2 which is still Aleph-0 and therefore not eligible for Low 1-C which is infinity^infinity.

And I have already explained why the storybooks don't count towards Low 1-C being below the baseline of the story per our current standards.
Click to expand...

Sorry if I'm misinterpreting you, but the logic here is that each doorway leads to another "possibility" that person could have taken, which includes every past, present, and future. These doorways all count as their own timelines. The high tiers of the verse can manipulate entire dreamscapes with their own power, such as Celestia who affected the dreams of everypony in Equestria; there is always a Hallway within every dreamscape. These Hallways contain infinite doorways which lead to realities with beings who have these dreamscapes with Infinite Hallways, and beings like Luna/Celestia/Discord/other high tiers who can also manipulate dreams. Therefore, the idea is that every infinite Hallway contains an infinite amount of timelines, each timeline having its own infinite amount of beings who have Infinite Hallways, who have their own Infinite Hallways, etc, etc, etc, infinitely.

There are also other things I'd like to point out, but this needs a little explaining.

MLP's cosmology contains the Infinite Hallways, and an infinite amount of universes. Then there exists Limbo, a space that exists in-between realities. As there are an infinite amount, it would therefore encompass the multiverse, and be an infinitely larger space itself. We know Limbo has stars and planets within itself. It counts as a higher spacial dimension, at least i believe so.

Through every doorway is a cosmology all its own, including the wider multiverse, and Limbo, which is a space that exists between every world. We know this because it would have to include those places to account for beings like Discord, who traverse the multiverse and beyond. Draconquuses like Discord can break through realities via sheer speed, and when they do this they are passing through Limbo, so yes, doorways would contain these higher spacial dimensionsal structures, as they would include the possibilies that revolve around them. When high-tiers of the verse manipulate dreamscapes, they are affecting the entire things, meaning they are affecting the Infinte Hallways which contain infinite timelines, the infinite multiverse, and Limbo.

That's how I understand it, at least. Seeing all this, I think Low-1C is a good place for the high tiers
 
PonePoster said:
Therefore, the idea is that every infinite Hallway contains an infinite amount of timelines, each timeline having its own infinite amount of beings who have Infinite Hallways, who have their own Infinite Hallways, etc, etc, etc, infinitely.
Click to expand...
Where is the evidence that there exists dreamscapes inside dreamscapes? We would just need a scan showing this. We cannot assume that this would be the case by default.

PonePoster said:
MLP's cosmology contains the Infinite Hallways, and an infinite amount of universes. Then there exists Limbo, a space that exists in-between realities. As there are an infinite amount, it would therefore encompass the multiverse, and be an infinitely larger space itself. We know Limbo has stars and planets within itself. It counts as a higher spacial dimension, at least i believe so.
Click to expand...
Let's say this is true, infinite universe * infinite limbos * infinite people * infinite hallways * infinite dreams: That is only infinity^5 which is not enough for Low 1-C.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Where is the evidence that there exists dreamscapes inside dreamscapes? We would just need a scan showing this. We cannot assume that this would be the case by default.


Let's say this is true, infinite universe * infinite limbos * infinite people * infinite hallways * infinite dreams: That is only infinity^5 which is not enough for Low 1-C.
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Just one thing, the space between universes in a multiverse (infinite or not) is considered an insignificant 5D (it doesn't count).

And by current standards, being infinitely larger than a 2-A structure is not enough for Low 1-C.

Even an infinite amount of 2-A is not enough to low 1-C.
No, the default assumption is that this is not the case. "Bigger" could mean having more 2-A structures and, as explained in greater detail previously, having more 2-A structures, or even infinitely many 2-A structures, unless uncountably infinite many, won't scale above a single 2-A structure in size. This is due to these structures actually have the same size as a baseline 2-A structure.
Click to expand...
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Where is the evidence that there exists dreamscapes inside dreamscapes? We would just need a scan showing this. We cannot assume that this would be the case by default.
Click to expand...
The evidence is simply that each doorway is a possible future a being could have taken. These possibilities would of course include Luna and Celestia, who can affect dreamscapes. Think of it like this: it is possible for Luna to make a decision to enter another person's doorway in their Infinite Hallway. This would mean that a doorway would have to include her going into a dreamscape in her own dreams, which means that a deeper layer is created in the Hallways. This can be logically extended infinitely, since those possibilities would create other possibilities which create other possibilities. The Infinite Hallway contains all of these, extending forever, going off what we know about it containing every past, present, and future, and that it is specifically stated to be, y'know, infinite. The scaling comes from the fact that it is possible, and that the space is larger enough to house these, which makes it low-1C.

The original blog on this actually covered the Infinite Hallways,
 
PonePoster said:
Think of it like this: it is possible for Luna to make a decision to enter another person's doorway in their Infinite Hallway. This would mean that a doorway would have to include her going into a dreamscape in her own dreams, which means that a deeper layer is created in the Hallways.
Click to expand...
You would need to show evidence. This is just conjecture.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
You would need to show evidence. This is just conjecture.
Click to expand...
The evidence is the fact that it is possible at all, therefore it is. Luna has the possible choice of entering any infinite amount of doorways within an Infinite Hallway, as she does in the scan. This would mean that one of the doorways within her own Hallway would therefore contain that possibility within itself, creating a deeper layer; another possible doorway within the Hallway. Since the Hallways can house these, they have to be that big to contain them.
 
Lightbuster30 said:
Not exactly a dream world, but if you want evidence, you can argue Big Mac entering Twilight's mind while she was already inside his.
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I don't think this would count.

PonePoster said:
The evidence is the fact that it is possible at all, therefore it is. Luna has the possible choice of entering any infinite amount of doorways within an Infinite Hallway, as she does in the scan. This would mean that one of the doorways within her own Hallway would therefore contain that possibility within itself, creating a deeper layer; another possible doorway within the Hallway. Since the Hallways can house these, they have to be that big to contain them.
Click to expand...
This is all conjecture with zero evidence to back it up. And let's say you are right, you have no evidence that the alleged hallway is just a doorway to the exact same hallway she is in now. You are assuming that hallway will lead to new separate possibilities but that is not the case.

So in conclusion:

No evidence that dreamscapes exist in side dreamscapes.
No evidence that even if dreamscapes exist inside dreamscapes, those dreamscapes wouldn't be the same dreamscape.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
I don't think this would count.


This is all conjecture with zero evidence to back it up. And let's say you are right, you have no evidence that the alleged hallway is just a doorway to the exact same hallway she is in now. You are assuming that hallway will lead to new separate possibilities but that is not the case.

So in conclusion:

No evidence that dreamscapes exist in side dreamscapes.
No evidence that even if dreamscapes exist inside dreamscapes, those dreamscapes wouldn't be the same dreamscape.
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Every doorway leads to another possibility. Another future and timeline. The realities they lead to are exactly the same as the waking world cosmology; they would need to be to account for the infinite multiversal travel and possibilities that would lead to interacting with spaces like Limbo and the infinite amount of worlds. Since entering a doorway is a possibility, clearly they would also be included in the larger Hallway itself as simply another future. High-tiers can affect entire dreamscapes. When they do this, they are affecting the Infinite Hallways as a whole, so it would also be affecting the Hallways within Hallways within Hallways. Dreamscapes would contain all of these as a whole, and thus would be considered a Low-1C space, that they are affecting with their own power. That's the entire point. They are all within the dreams that Luna and Celestia can affect - and they affect many thousands, to possibly millions of these at once by the way.
 
PonePoster said:
Every doorway leads to another possibility. Another future and timeline. The realities they lead to are exactly the same as the waking world cosmology; they would need to be to account for the infinite multiversal travel and possibilities that would lead to interacting with spaces like Limbo and infinite amount of worlds. Since entering doorway is a possibility, clearly they would also be included in the larger Hallway itself as simply another future. High-tiers can affect entire dreamscapes. When they do this, they are affecting the Infinite Hallways as a whole, so it would also be affecting the Hallways within Hallways within Hallways. Dreamscapes would contain all of these as a whole, and thus would be considered a Low-1C space, that they are affecting with their own power. That's the entire point. They are all within the dreams that Luna and Celestia can affect - and they affect many thousands, to possibly millions of these at once by the way.
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You are making a big claim with no evidence.

There are infinite possibilities in the hallway. You are claiming that within these possibilities, there exist infinite more possibilities, and so and so on. You need to show evidence of this. It cannot be just assumed.
 
I don't think this can be accepted if the entire OP is written in a non-English language going by our rules.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
This is not enough evidence for Low 1-C and I can easily say it in three statements:

1. "A hallway. There's always a hallway" is not synonymous with adinfinitum hallways.
Click to expand...
Actually, it is, Luna claims that in every dream/mind she has visited there has always been an Infinite Hallway, this means that the Infinite Hallway is not unique and is linked to dreams as a space within them.
If there is an Infinite Hallway for each dream/mind, and in the Alternate Futures there are ponies with dreams and own minds, that means that there is also an Infinite Hallway and a Dream Realm.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
2. The logic is broken: If every doorway led to a hallway with infinite doors which each lead to a new hallway with infinite doors that lead to a newer hallway etc. etc.? Where are the doors with that lead to the dreamscape that we clearly see? And there is no evidence that hallways have both infinite doors that lead to new hallways and dreamscapes simultaneously.

3. There is no scan of characters opening a doorway that leads them to new hallway. So we cannot assume that behind those doors are hallways and not dreamscapes that we see. We see the characters walk through the hallway and then automatically end up in a new hallway. We don't see any hallways connected to the hallways shown. They're just straight lines with doors on both sides.
Click to expand...
That is a literal interpretation of the information, obviously you will not find hundreds and hundreds of doors when you open one, as I said in the previous section, the Infinite Hallway is found in the minds of the ponies that we see in the Alternate Futures, also as they already mentioned, inside Big Mac's mind one of the personalities was able to get inside Twilight's mind making her inside her own mind.We know that there is a Dreamscape within each Alternate Future for four things.
  1. Ponies have an own mind, within the verse, the mind and dream are synonymous.
  2. Alternate Futures are just that, Alternate Futures derived from the main reality, so they should also contain similar structures such as the Dream Real, the Multiverse and Limbo.
  3. There are literally versions of Alternate Futures of characters like Discord and consequently Luna and Princess Celestia.
  4. Luna, upon accessing her mind, found an alternate version of Pony of Shadows, suggesting that within the Alternate Futures the Multiverse exists and therefore also the Dream Realm.
Saying that there are no scans to prove the existence of the Dream Realm in the Alternate Futures is not a counter-argument, since we don't need scans to prove that point because we literally know that's how the Verse works, there are hints of the existence of the Multiverse In the Alternate Futures themselves, the characters there have dreams and own minds, and to top it all off, the Alternate Futures are variants of the original universe and have the same qualities.
You are literally ignoring how the verse works and it is something that everyone has already explained, so, I find it unnecessary to discuss that again, since in the previous thread this and the Continuum Hypothesis were accepted.Not to mention that the Infinite Corridor is completely above the Alternate Futures, containing them all no matter how many they believe, in fact, the Infinite Corridor, being the metaphor of the elections, would also be the representation of time in the pony's life, creating infinite alternate possibilities/futures at each moment in time to encompass every possible action and non-action.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
And I have already explained why the storybooks don't count towards Low 1-C being below the baseline of the story per our current standards.
Click to expand...
Uhh no, you haven't, I don't understand what the point is with that, within the verse, StoryWorld is always referred to as a world/plane of existence inferior to Equestria to the point that an insect can destroy these realities, also, I was looking and the simple fact of seeing a universe as fiction counts in itself for R>F, but even the characters who enter StoryWorld by themselves are all-powerful gods who can control absolutely everything.
Plus, the StoryWorld contains Infinite Universes due to the fact that Limbo exists there and even literally has its own version of the Pony of Shadows (Mentioned as a multiversal threat) and several other MLP characters (including Cosmos).
 
ArzCosmos_888 said:
Actually, it is, Luna claims that in every dream/mind she has visited there has always been an Infinite Hallway, this means that the Infinite Hallway is not unique and is linked to dreams as a space within them.
If there is an Infinite Hallway for each dream/mind, and in the Alternate Futures there are ponies with dreams and own minds, that means that there is also an Infinite Hallway and a Dream Realm.
Click to expand...
There is no evidence of this. And it's the fact that you have to start the statement with "if" shows that it is conjecture

ArzCosmos_888 said:
Infinite Hallway is found in the minds of the ponies that we see in the Alternate Futures,
Click to expand...
All you have to do is just prove this with scans

ArzCosmos_888 said:
as they already mentioned, inside Big Mac's mind one of the personalities was able to get inside Twilight's mind making her inside her own mind
Click to expand...
This works against you. Unless you're going to claim Twilight has two unique minds, this is just a recursion of her same mind. If there are dreamscapes within the alternate realities in the dreamscapes, then why should we assume those dreamscapes are unique and not the exact same dreamscapes?

Unless you provide definitive evidence, then you cannot just assume it goes on ad infinitum with unique alternate realities.

ArzCosmos_888 said:
Uhh no, you haven't, I don't understand what the point is with that, within the verse, StoryWorld is always referred to as a world/plane of existence inferior to Equestria to the point that an insect can destroy these realities, also, I was looking and the simple fact of seeing a universe as fiction counts in itself for R>F, but even the characters who enter StoryWorld by themselves are all-powerful gods who can control absolutely everything.
Plus, the StoryWorld contains Infinite Universes due to the fact that Limbo exists there and even literally has its own version of the Pony of Shadows (Mentioned as a multiversal threat) and several other MLP characters (including Cosmos).
Click to expand...
The bolded is exactly why it doesn't count for R>F transcendence. This is our standards:

"Reality Equalization as a concept equalizes the 'baseline reality' to be the reality that is most prominent within the story, being treated as a normal 3-D reality. For verses that mostly take place in an in-universe video game or story, this would logically allow the characters who exist beyond that world to be Tier 2 or above, even if they are mostly normal humans otherwise."

The layer that equestria is on is the baseline. It does not get Low 1-C for transcending layers below it.
 
So I'm a little confused, there is already a thread that asked whether MLP was low 1-C, and it was accepted as "likely" from what I can tell. Seeing as how all the high tiers scale to this level of cosmology anyways, shouldn't this already be added to the profiles? Seems straight forward, if the whole reason for 2-A scaling was due to affecting structures of that size, and those same structures are now considered "likely" 5D.

Anyways, a huge BUMP is needed
 
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