Metal Gear Solid Massive CRT. "Kept you waiting, uh?"

[Abstractions]

Because it's never cool to have to lift a metal gear over your head? Because of dramatic framing? I don't know and don't care, because Snake is at least comparable to Gray Fox in terms of strength and this is a fact, and don't try to hit me with that "Twin Snakes isn't canon" bullshit, beacause it's explicitely shown in MGS4 and all of the MGS1 voice clips in that game are from TTS

Why is your excuse dramatic framing instead of the very obvious answer that he cannot do it? That's a non argument.

I never made that the claim that Twin Snakes wasn't canon, that's Chariot. So are you arguing with Chariot or me? Because the sound of this comment makes it look like you are agreeing with me.

Nope but Gray Fox sure as **** does. And Solid=Gray Fox. Gray Fox doesn't even break a sweat doing it. You know how stupid this argument is right? Show me Goku blowing up a planet, that's right, you can't, because he never does. Though let's ignore that people on par with him can.

I have, multiple times, even to your face directly. Are you incapable of reading?

Nope, still a strawman, most of your argument relies on oversimplifying or twisting what others have said to mean something that isnt what's actually being implied.

Because why the **** wouldn't he? You know how stupid of an argument this was? In the original he's not even worried, he jumps back because he was told to and not having to deal with a super advance mech kicking you in the dick is better than having to? Do you question every time someone dodges something casually in fiction too?

Irrelevant, you can manipulate someone stronger in LS without having to be that LS. This is a non argument.

No, you need to provide me links directly to what you are talking about, I'm not doing the searching for you, so either do this or move on.

False, I didn't do that at all. Please learn the terms.

If Big Boss had virtually no issue with stopping a full power stomp from a Metal Gear, Solid Snake could easily do the same. You need to pick one story or the other.

 

[Twellas]

>with that "Twin Snakes isn't canon" bullshit, beacause it's explicitely shown in MGS4 and all of the MGS1 voice clips in that game are from TTS

Twin Snakes is more like, secondary canon. It doesnt supersede the original, but some of it was adapted into canon. (The Gray Fox hallway in 4 is the original though, but the voice clips are twin snakes, it's more of a mix then anything).

Secondary canon, but it was overseen by Kojima himself, and the fightscenes are generally more accurate and extensive versions of the originals, so if Snake did something in Twin Snakes, he can canonically do that

 

[Chariot190]

>Why is your excuse dramatic framing instead of the very obvious answer that he cannot do it? That's a non argument.

So is saying he can't do it. Guess what, someone comparable to him can. Guess what, someone who's genetically almost identical to him can. Ok so we have at least 4 feats saying he could coming from two different sources. And then in the original, he's barely worried and doesnt even get a chance to try.

>I never made that the claim that Twin Snakes wasn't canon, that's Chariot. So are you arguing with Chariot or me? Because the sound of this comment makes it look like you are agreeing with me.

I didnt say it was strictly not canon, just not the primary original. It's arguably canon, more like secondary.

>Irrelevant, you can manipulate someone stronger in LS without having to be that LS. This is a non argument.

Being physically equal though? That's another thing entirely.

>No, you need to provide me links directly to what you are talking about, I'm not doing the searching for you, so either do this or move on.

I've told you exactly what and where it is, said which game and more. This isnt about me proving something to you, it's about you learning how to read because saying something again for the 4th time is ******* annoying. I've said exactly what I was talking about, which game, when, and how. There's nothing more to say.

>False, I didn't do that at all. Please learn the terms.

straw man
/ˌstrô ˈman/

noun
noun: strawman
1.
an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

Ok so I stand by what I said.





>If Big Boss had virtually no issue with stopping a full power stomp from a Metal Gear, Solid Snake could easily do the same. You need to pick one story or the other.

Yes, he could. But didn't get the chance because Gray Fox swooped in long before Rex reached him and did it himself without even breaking a sweat or struggling at all.

 

[Twellas]

Why is your excuse dramatic framing instead of the very obvious answer that he cannot do it? That's a non argument.

Because he factually scales to someone who can, so the argument that he "cannot do it" is objectively wrong? Yeah, I guess that would be it. if anything, why do you take Snake avoiding something as factual proof that he cannot do it? This is blatant confirmation-bias.

I never made that the claim that Twin Snakes wasn't canon, that's Chariot. So are you arguing with Chariot or me? Because the sound of this comment makes it look like you are agreeing with me.

I'm making this point because there is no way to get around Snake overpowering Gray Fox without saying that Twin Snakes isn't canon. I don't care who makes this argument, i don't agree with it, period

Irrelevant, you can manipulate someone stronger in LS without having to be that LS. This is a non argument.

You literally CANNOT do what Snake did to someone who's stronger than you, what he did clearly wasn't linked to AP, he took Gray Fox' arm, twisted it against his will and threw his ass away, had Gray Fox been that much stronger than Snake this couldn't have possibly happened

 

[Chariot190]

>Secondary canon, but it was overseen by Kojima himself, and the fightscenes are generally more accurate and extensive versions of the originals, so if Snake did something in Twin Snakes, he can canonically do that

Yeah, secondary canon. That is fine. Snake can do everything he did in Twin Snakes, even without those cutscenes (which is why I'm wondering why people think it's over the top, nothing in there is anything new).

As in, as long as it doesn't contradict anything from the original, it's fine. I guess the Gray Fox cutscene is a good example of what should be allowed, as all it is is showing the fight that took place in gameplay, seeping into a cutscene, not actually changing anything that wasnt already there.

 

[Chariot190]

Hell thinking on it, can't Solidus and Raiden exchange blows and sword duel while Solidus is wearing an enhanced exosuit based on MGS Ray technology?

 

[Twellas]

Yes, they can, and yes, Solidus' Exoskeleton is based on RAY

 

[Abstractions]

So is saying he can't do it. Guess what, someone comparable to him can. Guess what, someone who's genetically almost identical to him can. Ok so we have at least 4 feats saying he could coming from two different sources. And then in the original, he's barely worried and doesnt even get a chance to try.

I've told you exactly what and where it is, said which game and more. This isnt about me proving something to you, it's about you learning how to read because saying something again for the 4th time is ******* annoying. I've said exactly what I was talking about, which game, when, and how. There's nothing more to say.

Yes, he could. But didn't get the chance because Gray Fox swooped in long before Rex reached him and did it himself without even breaking a sweat or struggling at all.

That's not the same thing, suggesting the only reason is due to dramatic framing relies on you assuming what's going on in the author's mind, whereas I'm making the claim based on what is directly shown.

Gray Fox being comparable in AP output has no bearing on Snake being able to lift a Metal Gear, if you cannot provide a similar feat for any of the Snakes doing such heavy lifting outside of Peace Walker then Peace Walker needs to be disregarded as an outlier.

What's so hard about providing links to what you are talking about? I'm not going to search for your argument for you, just post them again.

Linking the strawman definition doesn't mean you clearly didn't understand my argument at its core. Move on.

Depending on what you take as official, Snake still felt the need to back away a lot because he clearly doesn't have faith in his ability. (In other words, can't do it)

Because he factually scales to someone who can, so the argument that he "cannot do it" is objectively wrong? Yeah, I guess that would be it. if anything, why do you take Snake avoiding something as factual proof that he cannot do it? This is blatant confirmation-bias.

I'm making this point because there is no way to get around Snake overpowering Gray Fox without saying that Twin Snakes isn't canon. I don't care who makes this argument, i don't agree with it, period

You literally CANNOT do what Snake did to someone who's stronger than you, what he did clearly wasn't linked to AP, he took Gray Fox' arm, twisted it against his will and threw his ass away, had Gray Fox been that much stronger than Snake this couldn't have possibly happened

Said someone is either Big Boss, which is being discussed as an outlier for him. (Using this feat directly would support that claim).

Gray Fox shakenly returning to his feet to recuperate only to be tossed immediately doesn't suggest he directly fought or pulled back from this engagement, it happened before he had himself together. Snake wouldn't need to lift much beyond a normal person's weight to do this.

 

[Chariot190]

>That's not the same thing, suggesting the only reason is due to dramatic framing relies on you assuming what's going on in the author's mind, whereas I'm making the claim based on what is directly shown.

Wasn't me who said that mate. Also >directly shown.
So nothing then? Because didn't fail to do anything, at all. You saying Solid Snake failed to lift Rex when in reality, he never got the chance to do so as Gray Fox, someone hes physically equal to, did it for him without breaking a sweat and even proceeded to have a conversation while doing it like nothing.

>Gray Fox being comparable in AP output has no bearing on Snake being able to lift a Metal Gear, if you cannot provide a similar feat for any of the Snakes doing such heavy lifting outside of Peace Walker then Peace Walker needs to be disregarded as an outlier.

Physical strength, not just AP. And I didnt even say AP, I said striking strength.
"Bring up an example of a Snake lifting a metal gear, oh but those 3 examples from Big Boss, the foundation for every Snake doesnt count".
You know how stupid this sounds? Big Boss does it 3 times, there, proof Solid could as well. Saying they're outliers is a means to an end. You're saying they're outliers so they can't be used as evidence to prove they aren't outliers, when in reality their existence along with this disproves your notion entirely.

>What's so hard about providing links to what you are talking about? I'm not going to search for your argument for you, just post them again.

So you want me to spoonfeed you? And why? Because you already asked this, and I gave the details the first time around. And yes actually, you will search for the argument, if you want to partake in this conversation you can actually be bothered to read it.

>Linking the strawman definition doesn't mean you clearly didn't understand my argument at its core. Move on.

I understand what you're trying to say, doesn't mean the text you wrote down wasn't a strawman by definition.

>Depending on what you take as official, Snake still felt the need to back away a lot because he clearly doesn't have faith in his ability. (In other words, can't

He only backed away after Gray Fox was shown to have it completely under control. >in other words he cant.
Ok so dodging something is now proof of a character being incapable of dealing with it I guess, even though everything else implies otherwise except Twin Snakes, but even then that's still a tad sus.
In other words, literally your headcanon, that's unfortunately all it is. You saying it can't happen because he doesnt, even though he didnt even get the chance, someone comparable does it anyway, someone who's identical to him nearly, does it multiple times in a more recent entry. But yeah, Solid not lifting it is proof he cant when he didnt even attempt or get a chance.

You're extrapolating really ******* hard here.

 

[Chariot190]

>Said someone is either Big Boss, which is being discussed as an outlier for him. (Using this feat directly would support that claim).

Feat? You realize there is no feat. What you're claiming to have happened didn't happen. Gray Fox came in before we get any information that would even imply if he could or couldn't. It's actually the opposite that's true, Big Boss doing it 3 times proves Snake could, not that Snake not getting a chance means he couldn't. You're doing it the complete wrong way here.

>Gray Fox shakenly returning to his feet to recuperate only to be tossed immediately doesn't suggest he directly fought or pulled back from this engagement, it happened before he had himself together. Snake wouldn't need to lift much beyond a normal person's weight to do this.

That's false. Also you're acting like Metal Gear works on some DBZ ass logic in regards to lifting strength.

 

[Twellas]

Gray Fox shakenly returning to his feet to recuperate only to be tossed immediately doesn't suggest he directly fought or pulled back from this engagement, it happened before he had himself together. Snake wouldn't need to lift much beyond a normal person's weight to do this.

So, because Snake had just hit him, suddenly Gray Fox just, doesn't oppose resistance? What kinda logic is that? And man, he O V E R P O W E R E D him, it's not about him throwing away Gray Fox, it's about him FORCEFULLY twisting Fox' arm AND throwing him away, this is basically the very definition of "overpowering"

That's not the same thing, suggesting the only reason is due to dramatic framing relies on you assuming what's going on in the author's mind, whereas I'm making the claim based on what is directly shown.

You are making a claim based on an interpretation of what is shown, because avoiding something doesn't mean you can't do it and you are acting as if it does. And I am not "assuming" what's going on in the author's mind, the author himself showed me that Snake is comparable to Gray Fox in a prologued fight scene where Snake kicked his ass and overpowered him.

And man, what you are doing is basically saying "Yeah, let's ignore these 3 feats, show me more feats, otherwise these 3 feats are not valid", for ****'s sake many verses don't even have 3 LS feats AT ALL, and MG has 3 on a certain level, and you are trying to chuck all of them away as "outliers"; you could use this argument to downgrade basically everything, just remove multiple feats a priori for no ******* reason and force people to find other feats on that level, seems honest, uh?

 

[Abstractions]

Wasn't me who said that mate. Also >directly shown.
So nothing then? Because didn't fail to do anything, at all. You saying Solid Snake failed to lift Rex when in reality, he never got the chance to do so as Gray Fox, someone hes physically equal to, did it for him without breaking a sweat and even proceeded to have a conversation while doing it like nothing.

>Gray Fox being comparable in AP output has no bearing on Snake being able to lift a Metal Gear, if you cannot provide a similar feat for any of the Snakes doing such heavy lifting outside of Peace Walker then Peace Walker needs to be disregarded as an outlier.

Physical strength, not just AP. And I didnt even say AP, I said striking strength.
"Bring up an example of a Snake lifting a metal gear, oh but those 3 examples from Big Boss, the foundation for every Snake doesnt count".
You know how stupid this sounds? Big Boss does it 3 times, there, proof Solid could as well. Saying they're outliers is a means to an end. You're saying they're outliers so they can't be used as evidence to prove they aren't outliers, when in reality their existence along with this disproves your notion entirely.

So you want me to spoonfeed you? And why? Because you already asked this, and I gave the details the first time around. And yes actually, you will search for the argument, if you want to partake in this conversation you can actually be bothered to read it.

I understand what you're trying to say, doesn't mean the text you wrote down wasn't a strawman by definition.

>Depending on what you take as official, Snake still felt the need to back away a lot because he clearly doesn't have faith in his ability. (In other words, can't

He only backed away after Gray Fox was shown to have it completely under control. >in other words he cant.
Ok so dodging something is now proof of a character being incapable of dealing with it I guess, even though everything else implies otherwise except Twin Snakes, but even then that's still a tad sus.
In other words, literally your headcanon, that's unfortunately all it is. You saying it can't happen because he doesnt, even though he didnt even get the chance, someone comparable does it anyway, someone who's identical to him nearly, does it multiple times in a more recent entry. But yeah, Solid not lifting it is proof he cant when he didnt even attempt or get a chance.

You're extrapolating really ******* hard here.

If you weren't the one who said it why bother responding to it?

I never said he "failed" to do anything, now that's strawmanning. I'm telling you he backed away from it because he clearly wanted to get away from the thing that could easily crush him, indicating that he clearly cannot lift it.

"Big Boss does it three times" is not an evidence because you lack the ability to prove that isn't an outlier for him being able to do that. Stop bringing up Peace Walker if you cannot back it up with other games.

Snarky comment aside, you needing to provide a link to the thing you are talking about should be mandatory. It is not up to me to find your argument for you when you have the burden of proof. That's just how that works.

You clearly do not if you called it a strawman when I directly responded to something someone had said, I provided you the quote.

Go into more details as to why it's suspicious. Also claiming it's my headcanon when my argument requires no assumptions doesn't make any sense.

We could stop wasting our time if you could provide anything that supports the rating that isn't Peace Walker or attacking Gray Fox.

So, because Snake had just hit him, suddenly Gray Fox just, doesn't oppose resistance? What kinda logic is that? And man, he O V E R P O W E R E D him, it's not about him throwing away Gray Fox, it's about him FORCEFULLY twisting Fox' arm AND throwing him away, this is basically the very definition of "overpowering"

You are making a claim based on an interpretation of what is shown, because avoiding something doesn't mean you can't do it and you are acting as if it does. And I am not "assuming" what's going on in the author's mind, the author himself showed me that Snake is comparable to Gray Fox in a prologued fight scene where Snake kicked his ass and overpowered him.

And man, what you are doing is basically saying "Yeah, let's ignore these 3 feats, show me more feats, otherwise these 3 feats are not valid", for ****'s sake many verses don't even have 3 LS feats AT ALL, and MG has 3 on a certain level, and you are trying to chuck all of them away as "outliers"; you could use this argument to downgrade basically everything, just remove multiple feats a priori for no ******* reason and force people to find other feats on that level, seems honest, uh?

Are you saying that Gray Fox wasn't staggered when Solid Snake had thrown him, decreasing the odds of him actually fighting back against it? Because the video you showed me shows that exactly.

I make the claim that he cannot lift it based on Gray Fox himself coming in to stop it for Snake, I do not need any assumptions to make a claim that Snake cannot lift a Metal Gear based off this nor do I need to make flimsy excuses such as "dramatic framing".

Yes, we ignore outliers because Snake doesn't have anything else to reasonably support it in any other media, what's so hard about this to understand? Bringing up "other verses" doesn't matter because we are specifically talking about Metal Gear here, if you want to downgrade said other verses you are free to do so.

 

[Newendigo]

I think what Chariot is refering to is Snake at his worst state being able to withstand the force of his railgun, which is comparable to a tank cannon (Albeit, that is only Class 5).

It would be good if anybody (Either Chariot, Twellas or Spooky, anyone) could link the feat (or at least mentioned when and where it happens) instead of just stating it, it would save everyone a lot more time.

Alternatively, people can discuss about Lifting Strength (And maybe scaling) in another occasions, it like something that deserves its own thread, and the some of the abilities seems to be overall accepted.

 

[Twellas]

I never said he "failed" to do anything, now that's strawmanning. I'm telling you he backed away from it because he clearly wanted to get away from the thing that could easily crush him, indicating that he clearly cannot lift it.

And again, assuming that Snake backed up because he couldn't lift it. Seriously, what the **** was Snake supposed to do there, stand still? Fox blocked REX' foot and Snake backed off because it was the only sensible thing to do, since he could only harm REX with a ranged, slow weapon and staying close would mean certain death due to REX' laser (which is what kills Gray Fox, btw)

"Big Boss does it three times" is not an evidence because you lack the ability to prove that isn't an outlier for him being able to do that. Stop bringing up Peace Walker if you cannot back it up with other games.

If a character can perform a feat of a certain level for 3 times, then it's very likely NOT an outlier, don't you think? 3 feats is a fuckton mate, go to any verse and remove 3 feats, see what happens. This is absolutely laughable, 3 feats by themselves are proof enough of a character being on that level, you are simply putting an unrealistically high standard here

We could stop wasting our time if you could provide anything that supports the rating that isn't Peace Walker or attacking Gray Fox."

"yeah, show proof outside of these 2 very notable, canonical instances which I, Sir Abstraction, have deemed insufficient from the height of my ivory throne and THEN I, Sir Abstraction, will consider this thread worthy". Peace Walker's and MGS1's feats should be more than enough to back up the rating, stop putting this stupidly high and arbitrary standard on this particular verse

Are you saying that Gray Fox wasn't staggered when Solid Snake had thrown him, decreasing the odds of him actually fighting back against it? Because the video you showed me shows that exactly.

I'm saying that claiming that Gray Fox being "stunned" made it so that he just gave up and didn't even pose resistance to what Snake did to him, to the point where Snake was able to completely overpower him despite being (according to you) hundreds if not millions of times weaker is stupid and a crazy leap in logic, that's what I'm saying

I make the claim that he cannot lift it based on Gray Fox himself coming in to stop it for Snake, I do not need any assumptions to make a claim that Snake cannot lift a Metal Gear based off this nor do I need to make flimsy excuses such as "dramatic framing".

Yeah, you very clearly need to make an assumption, because you main poin, "he cannot lift it" is a complete and utter assumption, as you have no way to prove it whatsoever: Gray Fox stopped REX way before it was even remotely close to Snake, so Snake didn't even have the chance to try and lift it, and Gray Fox didn't even come with the purpose of "saving Snake" or anything of the sort, he joined the fight with the explicit purpose of atoning for his past sins and giving a meaningful end to his life. Your confirmation bias is ridiculous

Yes, we ignore outliers because Snake doesn't have anything else to reasonably support it in any other media, what's so hard about this to understand? Bringing up "other verses" doesn't matter because we are specifically talking about Metal Gear here, if you want to downgrade said other verses you are free to do so.

3 feats cannot be outliers, i would get 1 or even 2, but 3 is way too many to call outliers. And yes, bringing up "other verses" is very much relevant, because it just shows how ridiculously arbitrary your standard is, to the point where it would invalidate most if not all verses if it were applied to the rest of the verses on the wiki, it's basically a reductio ad absurdum. For ****'s sake 2 of the 3 feats were performed by the same character.


Your point boils down to "these 3 feats are outliers", but of course, when you remove the best feats from any given verse in any given stat, the stuff below it will be significantly lower. You are simply being disengenuous and putting an unrealistically high standard for the verse as a whole. We have 2 class M feats for one character, and then another one from a character to which the first character's clone scales

 

[Twellas]

It would be good if anybody (Either Chariot, Twellas or Spooky, anyone) could link the feat (or at least mentioned when and where it happens) instead of just stating it, it would save everyone a lot more time.

I linked all of them multiple times, but just for the sake of clarity

Big Boss halts and overpowers Cocoon

Big Boss halts and overpowers Zeke, who, by its very mobility alone, is Class M

Gray Fox halts REX' foot, this is so famous that it's embarassing that I even have to post it

 

[Chariot190]

>If you weren't the one who said it why bother responding to it?

Because, I felt like it. Though, I responded to everything but that specific point so idk.

>I never said he "failed" to do anything, now that's strawmanning. I'm telling you he backed away from it because he clearly wanted to get away from the thing that could easily crush him, indicating that he clearly cannot lift it.

No, but what you have arguing is that he would have failed, even though nothing says that other than your blatant headcanon that's proven false by the source material. Yes, he backed away, because why in the ever loving **** would anyone willingly let themselves get attacked by a giant mecha. Gray Fox dodges Rex too and we know for a fact he can lift it. Your arguments are awful, they're entirely reliant on the fact that Snake absolutely could not under any circumstance lift the thing, even though he never actually got the chance to see if he could and it's just you assuming he could not.

>"Big Boss does it three times" is not an evidence because you lack the ability to prove that isn't an outlier for him being able to do that. Stop bringing up Peace Walker if you cannot back it up with other games.

Gray Fox does the same thing and he's comparable to Snake. This isn't an inability to prove it isn't an outlier, at this point you're in straight denial. Big Boss performs a feat on three separate occasions. Gray Fox, in another game, does the same type of feat without breaking a sweat. Cool so 4 similar feats from two different games that coincide with each other and imply your extrapolated headcanon of something that never occurred to be false. Simple as that, nothing more to add.

>Snarky comment aside, you needing to provide a link to the thing you are talking about should be mandatory. It is not up to me to find your argument for you when you have the burden of proof. That's just how that works.

First off, I lied about it being like Class 50, some random dude figured out how much tons of force a Tank's recoil is in lbs of force and newtons, in regards to it and it's like 239.73214285714286 tons of force. Assuming this random ass dude's math is correct and I'm just not being baited, could be though, so don't hold this against me.
Wasn't a snarky comment, even rereading it I don't see how it could be seen as snark, maybe a bit rude and blunt, but not snarky. What it was, was me telling you flat out, actually read the thread, or do not bother, I'm not going to spoonfeed you every little thing, when I've explained the feat I'm talking about 4 times I think? An explanation once? Perfectly reasonable. A seond time in case it was missed and for newcomers to get caught up? Fine was well. 3 is pushing it. 4 is where you're on your own. Hell I shouldnt of even done it the 4th time, 3 is where it gets ridiculous. Burden of proof is on me, of course, I did bring up the feat in question, and I gave it, have some decency and actually bother to read the thread, simple as that. Why repeat myself when it's already there? Are you incapable of simply just paying attention?

>You clearly do not if you called it a strawman when I directly responded to something someone had said, I provided you the quote.

Do you really need a breakdown of exactly why your initial post in this discussion was a blatant misinterpretation and over simplification of the proposed claims being made?

>Go into more details as to why it's suspicious. Also claiming it's my headcanon when my argument requires no assumptions doesn't make any sense.

Because someone who he's shown comparable if not outright physically above did it anyone, that would be why it's suspicious.
Your argument is quite literally by definition an assumption. You are assuming that Solid Snake would have failed to lift REX when nothing actually confirms that to be the case. Couple that with feats and scaling that suggest the complete opposite. You are by, literal, 100%, definition as per the English language. Making an assumption of how something would have played out that we never see fulfilled or actually occur.
This isn't even subject to debate
We could stop wasting our time if you could provide anything that supports the rating that isn't Peace Walker or attacking Gray Fox.

>We could stop wasting our time if you could provide anything that supports the rating that isn't Peace Walker or attacking Gray Fox.

We could stop wasting time if you didn't have an extremely ass backwards way of thinking too but here we are. Ignore 3 solid explicit feats from one game and ignore Gray Fox, someone who's weaker than Solid in physical statistics, doing said feats. Basically a full game proving you wrong and a character Solid overpowers in the very game you're clinging to proving you wrong. And that's without getting into some other shit, I'd have to look, but on the chance that a single character struggles or even breaks out of Mantis' telekinetic grasp, bam, that's another solid mech lifting feat as Mantis can casually move mecha's over 4000km with his telekinetic power. Also the fact you have to say "that isn't peace walker" because it proves you wrong flat out should be evidence enough that this conversation is pointless, just because there are multiple feats that prove your extrapolation false doesn't mean you can just say they don't count.
"But they're outliers"
They're only outliers if you ignore them as reasoning as to why your counterargument is false in the first place, you're skipping a step here to reach the goal of outlier, not how it works.

>Are you saying that Gray Fox wasn't staggered when Solid Snake had thrown him, decreasing the odds of him actually fighting back against it? Because the video you showed me shows that exactly.

The very fact he was staggered by Snake but not when the mecha tried to crush him would imply Solid>REX's in raw physicals and hydraulics.

>I make the claim that he cannot lift it based on Gray Fox himself coming in to stop it for Snake, I do not need any assumptions to make a claim that Snake cannot lift a Metal Gear based off this nor do I need to make flimsy excuses such as "dramatic framing".

Huh well shit, guess that means Goku couldn't beat Frieza because Trunks came into to beat Frieza for him, or that time Vegeta came in and blocked an attack for Goku who would have had no trouble blocking himself, etc. You know this argument doesn't work? This would have credence if Peace Walker didn't prove it wrong, but Peace Walker did prove it wrong, and it's far more recent too, it isn't like Peace Walker came first then MGS1, no, Peace Walker is basically MGSV Part 1, it's existence after the fact sheds light on what would have happened if Snake was forced to try and lift Rex, and it isn't what you're saying it is, its not a one off thing done in the game either. You can't just close your eyes and plug your ears and pretend the game doesn't exist. You need literally nothing but assumptions to conclude this.
This isn't even debatable. you saying you don't need to assume doesn't change the fact that you are. Dramatic framing doesn't matter, at all, regardless of what it is, Big Boss proves he can multiple times in a more recent game, in the primary source material the little foundation to this point that you have is nonexistent as well, only actually existing in Twin Snakes, which is some weird mixmash of canonicity.

>Yes, we ignore outliers because Snake doesn't have anything else to reasonably support it in any other media, what's so hard about this to understand? Bringing up "other verses" doesn't matter because we are specifically talking about Metal Gear here, if you want to downgrade said other verses you are free to do so.

Not an outlier, or hell, maybe it is? But sure as hell ain't for the reasons you're giving, it'd only be an outlier if it was consistently proven false by things that aren't PIS (your example mind you isn't even PIS, it simply doesnt exist), but it's the opposite, it's actually the most consistent lifting feat in the series, no other feat in the whole franchise happens this often except bullet dodging. There's nothing difficult to understand here, the issue lies in the fact your entire argument is based on conjecture, assumptions and, no offense, ignorance, while simultaneously ignoring the fact it's actually shown doable, but instead of taking said examples as evidence that your preconceived notion is what's likely in the wrong, you assume the multiple feats are what's wrong, not your headcanon. In OTHER media you say? Don't make such bold claims, need I remind you the comics exist? Nobody here actually wants to downgrade other verses off of such a hypocritical and faulty notion. Other verses may be used as an example, but they're not used to say two wrongs make a right, they're used to say this is double standards and honestly implying such downgrades to actually be justifiable is a dishonest act as it isn't true for other verses and it isn't true here either.

 

[Chariot190]

I linked all of them multiple times, but just for the sake of clarity

Big Boss halts and overpowers Cocoon

Big Boss halts and overpowers Zeke, who, by its very mobility alone, is Class M

Gray Fox halts REX' foot, this is so famous that it's embarassing that I even have to post it

Big Boss can do it to Peace Walker too, he (she? I guess it's a she) can leap hundreds of feet into the air and across a dock in like a second to 3 depending on how far. And ZEKE's legs are literally made from Peace Walker if I recall. So if anything that's actually consistent strength for those legs, and Big Boss in what I assume to be his prime more or less (that or MGS3)>Legs.

>could link the feat (or at least mentioned when and where it happens)

I did though. MGS4, Old Snake, post Crying Wolf. Stated in item description and the now defunct MGS encyclopedia.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Agreeing with Chariot and Twellas. This argument for it being an outlier is stupid.

 

[Newendigo]

@Twellas It may been lost due to how bloated the threads is.

Also, I'm refering to the Class 50 feat that Chariot said, all this was already mentioned.

 

[Twellas]

I mean, if Big Boss can also lift Peace Walker then what the **** are we even talking about here? 4 feats is more than enough to warrant a rating and going out of your way to claim that all 4 are outliers is just plain disingenuous.

It's also worth noting that saying "these 4 feats are outliers" is an unfalsifiable claim, since by taking away the 4 best feats of the verse which are, BY THEIR VERY NATURE, much above everything else, you make it absolutely impossible to prove your claim wrong. Logically speaking the "limit number" for outliers feats would be around 2 tops, but going out of your way to say that 4, 4 feats (and I can't stress enough the fact that 3/4 of the verses on the wiki don't even HAVE 4 lifting strenght feats AS A WHOLE) are all outliers? That's ridiculous

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

@Twellas It may been lost due to how bloated the threads is.

Also, I'm refering to the Class 50 feat that Chariot, all this was already mentioned.

Twellas, can we get a clip of the Railgun Recoul Feat?

 

[Chariot190]

The legs of ZEKE and Peace Walker, are outright capable of launching themselves into the air at high speeds and far distances. He scales off their LS at this point.

At this point, the weight of the mecha doesn't even matter, Big Boss himself is physically overpowering the hydraulics of these legs with lifting force.
It's basically if someone went and benched a hydraulic press while it was pressing down, or like how Link could overpower and push against Ganon at the end of TP.

 

[Twellas]

Twellas, can we get a clip of the Railgun Recoul Feat?

uuhhhhh I think it's just gameplay. Snake gets Crying wolf's railgun as a weapon and can wield it without really suffering the recoil, which I honestly think would be much stronger than that of a tank cannon but whatever, that's just me

 

[Twellas]

Speaking of Lifting Strength, I just realized that the calc for Raiden's LS completely ignores the fact that Outer Haven was chuckfull of RAY units, which would add several hundred tons to its weight, but i guess it's better to discuss this at a later time

 

[Chariot190]

Twellas, can we get a clip of the Railgun Recoul Feat?

It's a weapon Solid ends up picking up from one of the BB Corps. Mind you, Snake is scripted to use this thing in story against Gekkos when Raiden fights Vamp.
(The recoil on this is also an actual concern, Fortune wielding a earlier model needed some hightech gadget to help against the recoil, though, unintentionally, and the BB Corp that wields it can do so by having a superhuman mech suit which has showcased superhuman strength when it casually stops a bulldozer in its tracks and knocks vehicles over. The damn thing going off kicks up a shockwave of snow when fighting the boss alone).

Each RAY is 500 tons, every two Ray is a Class M feat.

 

[Abstractions]

And again, assuming that Snake backed up because he couldn't lift it. Seriously, what the **** was Snake supposed to do there, stand still? Fox blocked REX' foot and Snake backed off because it was the only sensible thing to do, since he could only harm REX with a ranged, slow weapon and staying close would mean certain death due to REX' laser (which is what kills Gray Fox, btw)

If a character can perform a feat of a certain level for 3 times, then it's very likely NOT an outlier, don't you think? 3 feats is a fuckton mate, go to any verse and remove 3 feats, see what happens. This is absolutely laughable, 3 feats by themselves are proof enough of a character being on that level, you are simply putting an unrealistically high standard here

Why is it your immediate conclusion that he could have done something when someone had to come in and do it for him? I make the realistic assertion based on what's shown to us in the game that he can't because the game believes that he can't itself.

You miss the point entirely, I'm arguing the game, Peace Walker, itself is an outlier because the feats in it are so drastically above anything else we see done by Big Boss or Solid Snake in any other game, do you not understand an argument for consistency when you see one?

"yeah, show proof outside of these 2 very notable, canonical instances which I, Sir Abstraction, have deemed insufficient from the height of my ivory throne and THEN I, Sir Abstraction, will consider this thread worthy". Peace Walker's and MGS1's feats should be more than enough to back up the rating, stop putting this stupidly high and arbitrary standard on this particular verse

I'm saying that claiming that Gray Fox being "stunned" made it so that he just gave up and didn't even pose resistance to what Snake did to him, to the point where Snake was able to completely overpower him despite being (according to you) hundreds if not millions of times weaker is stupid and a crazy leap in logic, that's what I'm saying

Ignoring your snide remark, asking for some consistency isn't putting some silly arbitrary standard on a verse, we ask for consistency for literally every other verse and it's you being unable to accept that.

Never said he gave up, he was staggered and clearly couldn't adequately react and thus got thrown easily, that's completely natural and doesn't require leaps in logic to claim.

Yeah, you very clearly need to make an assumption, because you main poin, "he cannot lift it" is a complete and utter assumption, as you have no way to prove it whatsoever: Gray Fox stopped REX way before it was even remotely close to Snake, so Snake didn't even have the chance to try and lift it, and Gray Fox didn't even come with the purpose of "saving Snake" or anything of the sort, he joined the fight with the explicit purpose of atoning for his past sins and giving a meaningful end to his life. Your confirmation bias is ridiculous

3 feats cannot be outliers, i would get 1 or even 2, but 3 is way too many to call outliers. And yes, bringing up "other verses" is very much relevant, because it just shows how ridiculously arbitrary your standard is, to the point where it would invalidate most if not all verses if it were applied to the rest of the verses on the wiki, it's basically a reductio ad absurdum. For ****'s sake 2 of the 3 feats were performed by the same character.


Your point boils down to "these 3 feats are outliers", but of course, when you remove the best feats from any given verse in any given stat, the stuff below it will be significantly lower. You are simply being disengenuous and putting an unrealistically high standard for the verse as a whole. We have 2 class M feats for one character, and then another one from a character to which the first character's clone scales

I can make the same logical argument that suggesting "he could easily lift it, just didn't have the chance" is a completely ridiculous assumption, his purpose not being to save Snake doesn't change the fact that's what he did by stopping it when Snake wasn't going to.

Three feats can be outliers, especially when you have enough media to consider them so, look at comics, they have a litany of outliers. I'm not holding anything to some arbitrary standard just because I ask for consistency and I would appreciate you stop treating it as such.

This last bit supports my argument, if stats are vastly lower because the top ones are so drastically higher than everything else that's a clear indicator that it isn't consistent with the rest of the series.

"First off, I lied about it being like Class 50, some random dude figured out how much tons of force a Tank's recoil is in lbs of force and newtons, in regards to it and it's like 239.73214285714286 tons of force. Assuming this random ass dude's math is correct and I'm just not being baited, could be though, so don't hold this against me.
Wasn't a snarky comment, even rereading it I don't see how it could be seen as snark, maybe a bit rude and blunt, but not snarky. What it was, was me telling you flat out, actually read the thread, or do not bother, I'm not going to spoonfeed you every little thing, when I've explained the feat I'm talking about 4 times I think? An explanation once? Perfectly reasonable. A seond time in case it was missed and for newcomers to get caught up? Fine was well. 3 is pushing it. 4 is where you're on your own. Hell I shouldnt of even done it the 4th time, 3 is where it gets ridiculous. Burden of proof is on me, of course, I did bring up the feat in question, and I gave it, have some decency and actually bother to read the thread, simple as that. Why repeat myself when it's already there? Are you incapable of simply just paying attention?"

Literally asking you to recap everything so I don't have to search for it is a basic thing to do and not being asked to be spoonfed. Stop being so blatantly toxic.

Has said calculation been properly reviewed? Where was it made and when? Can you provide a link to it? Simple and easy questions that should be very easy for you to answer.

Chariot, stop it with the strawman stuff. I made a very clear response to something someone said and even quoted it for you. You continuously commenting on does nothing but make you look worse.

 

[Chariot190]

>Why is it your immediate conclusion that he could have done something when someone had to come in and do it for him? I make the realistic assertion based on what's shown to us in the game that he can't because the game believes that he can't itself.

No, you make completely conjecture based on something that didn't happen. You're asserting that Gray Fox needed to do it for him, guess what? He didn't. You're assuming he did. Shown to us? It's also shown they can lift mecha, hypocritical much? But unlike your example of it being shown, these examples actually happened unlike yours.

>You miss the point entirely, I'm arguing the game, Peace Walker, itself is an outlier because the feats in it are so drastically above anything else we see done by Big Boss or Solid Snake in any other game, do you not understand an argument for consistency when you see one?

"Peace Walker, itself". Opinion discarded. Also didn't Venom physically CQC the shit out of the SKULL unit? I wouldnt say "drastically above anything else" given one game later his expy makes SKULLS blush who are pretty damn superhuman in there own right.

>Ignoring your snide remark, asking for some consistency isn't putting some silly arbitrary standard on a verse, we ask for consistency for literally every other verse and it's you being unable to accept that.

It's actually you ironic as it is. 3 Big Boss feats, a Gray Fox, maybe some Psycho Mantis tossed in there idk. The inconsistency is the event that never occurred you're clinging to, not the rest.

>Never said he gave up, he was staggered and clearly couldn't adequately react and thus got thrown easily, that's completely natural and doesn't require leaps in logic to claim.

see above.

>I can make the same logical argument that suggesting "he could easily lift it, just didn't have the chance" is a completely ridiculous assumption, his purpose not being to save Snake doesn't change the fact that's what he did by stopping it when Snake wasn't going to.

His purpose wasn't actually to save Snake there, it was more along the lines of he came to give his life story and destroy the radome, he just happened to swoop then and there and gave Snake a chance to back off. This argument falls apart because we have feats confirming that he could've, unlike yours which is entirely assumption based. Yours has no proof, our argument does.

>Three feats can be outliers, especially when you have enough media to consider them so, look at comics, they have a litany of outliers. I'm not holding anything to some arbitrary standard just because I ask for consistency and I would appreciate you stop treating it as such.

You're unironically arguing against consistency. And it's 4 feats. And a scaling feat. Maybe more honestly. You aren't asking for consistency, you're saying lets ignore a whole game and then extrapolate a scene to fit a certain narrative.

>This last bit supports my argument, if stats are vastly lower because the top ones are so drastically higher than everything else that's a clear indicator that it isn't consistent with the rest of the series.

It is though, the issue is you're ignoring every feat worth a damn and saying "let's use these zero effort bit feats that wouldn't even be considered feats in the same vain as Superman lifting a ton would be" as the benchmark and not the actual displays of lifting prowess.

>Literally asking you to recap everything so I don't have to search for it is a basic thing to do and not being asked to be spoonfed. Stop being so blatantly toxic.

Read the thread dude, I gave you a rundown the first time, shouldn't have to it again, if so why ask the first time? Toxic? No, I just hold everyone to the same standard.


>Has said calculation been properly reviewed? Where was it made and when? Can you provide a link to it? Simple and easy questions that should be very easy for you to answer.

I could do that one yeah.


>Chariot, stop it with the strawman stuff. I made a very clear response to something someone said and even quoted it for you. You continuously commenting on does nothing but make you look worse.

Make me look worse? I'm just saying what I seen, if it isn't a strawman, you either worded it poorly or accidentally left out some information. Either way. If you want to throw that under the bridge and leave this contention alone permanently, I'm fine with it, but I'm not retracting my statement regarding it.

 

[Twellas]

Why is it your immediate conclusion that he could have done something when someone had to come in and do it for him? I make the realistic assertion based on what's shown to us in the game that he can't because the game believes that he can't itself.

But again, it's a complete assumption that Gray Fox "HAD to come in and do it for him", he just did, period, no actual way to know if Gray HAD to come in, and saying that he did is a, you guessed it, a s s u m p t i o n; you are extrapolating so hard to turn this into proof of Snake not being able to lift REX

You miss the point entirely, I'm arguing the game, Peace Walker, itself is an outlier because the feats in it are so drastically above anything else we see done by Big Boss or Solid Snake in any other game, do you not understand an argument for consistency when you see one?

The idea of a whole game being an outlier is so ridiculous, so completely devoid of reason that it should be self-evident how much it is a non-argument. By your logic, why not just consider the Frieza saga an outlier, its feats are much higher than Sayian saga, right? This point is completely demented

Ignoring your snide remark, asking for some consistency isn't putting some silly arbitrary standard on a verse, we ask for consistency for literally every other verse and it's you being unable to accept that.

Yes, but 4 feats are more than enough to be considered consistent under normal circumstances, wanna know what an actual outlier is? Snake grappling Vamp, THIS is an outlier: happens once and is VASTLY above anything else shown by Snake, which is why, guess what? WE DON'T SCALE SNAKE TO VAMP. Even just saying that 4 feats are ALL outliers goes against the very meaning of "outlier".

Never said he gave up, he was staggered and clearly couldn't adequately react and thus got thrown easily, that's completely natural and doesn't require leaps in logic to claim.

Still doesn't make sense, because for Snake to not scale to Gray Fox after what he did, Gray should basically have gone limp and pose no resistance at all, which is ridiculous to claim, especially when Snake even gave him the time to recover.

I can make the same logical argument that suggesting "he could easily lift it, just didn't have the chance" is a completely ridiculous assumption, his purpose not being to save Snake doesn't change the fact that's what he did by stopping it when Snake wasn't going to.

This is ridiculous, have you no self conscience? Don't you see how many assumptions you are making while accusing others of the same thing? 1 He OBJECTIVELY didn't have the chance, are you blind or something? Fox blocked REX' foot while it was still far away from Snake 2 YOU are saying that Gray Fox saved Snake, YOU, no one else, under the, again, ASSUMPTION that Snake couldn't lift the thing. Neither Gray Fox nor Snake say anything about the first saving the latter.

Three feats can be outliers, especially when you have enough media to consider them so, look at comics, they have a litany of outliers

Comics are a very peculiar case, to the point where they have a whole page dedicated to just to how to scale them; the fact that you had to compare a videogame series, which was all made with a singular vision in mind and with one guy overseeing EVERYTHING, to comics, which run on average for decades under different writers, shows how desperate you are.

This last bit supports my argument, if stats are vastly lower because the top ones are so drastically higher than everything else that's a clear indicator that it isn't consistent with the rest of the series.

They are drastically higher because they are the ******* best feats in the verse, jesus christ man, that's what "best feats" are, remove the first handful best feats from any given verse and everything else will almost certainly be much lower. You are not merely asking for "consistency", you are asking for an unrealistic and arbitrary level of "consistency" under which almost no other verse would survive

 

[Chariot190]

>Snake grappling Vamp

Actually yeah what the ****, forget about mecha lifting, that's above everything else Snake has done, not the mecha shit. That alone dwarfs the mecha feats.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

>Snake grappling Vamp

Actually yeah what the ****, forget about mecha lifting, that's above everything else Snake has done, not the mecha shit. That alone dwarfs the mecha feats.

****, I forgot that shit actually happened. Now that's what I would call an Outlier, not the Mecha Bench Press.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I heard something about characters having weaknesses to piercing attacks, I was never in a discussion, and I'm sure we've had a bunch of topics getting brought up to propose such a thing only for it to be universally rejected. Piercing attacks are just prone to lazy writing. Characters persistently getting killed by anti tank rockets to make a "Surviving a nuclear explosion that blows up an entire ship killing millions of people, but this one character somehow survived via unknown methods and being used to scale the entire verse" would be a reasonable example of passing something as in outlier.

But a character persistently wrestling and toppling giant mechs with solid calculations resulting in Tier 8 seems consistent in my eyes. Though, I may have doubts of scaling "Everyone" from Snake tbf. If there are characters legit weaker than snake such as various nameless marines.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

As far as im aware there is only one 8-C calc with characters consistently being harmed by feats far below that

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Hell in another game Snake canonically needed numerous punches to perform a feat slightly lower than the bench press feat

 

[Twellas]

Hell in another game Snake canonically needed numerous punches to perform a feat slightly lower than the bench press feat

You mean the first Metal Gear, where Snake was on his first ever mission and nowhere near as good as he was even just in MG2? The same Snake who needed a rocket launcher to defeat Venom?

 

[Twellas]

Though, I may have doubts of scaling "Everyone" from Snake tbf. If there are characters legit weaker than snake such as various nameless marines.

Yeah this right here is a more reasonable concern. The main reason for everyone scaling to Big Boss/Snake is that CQC is, by its very nature, a grappling martial art, and unless we wanna say that Big Boss automatically nerfs himself when fighting bosses, then he would absolutely crush and bully them. The what kinda muddies it is just the skill gap, because for instance, Snake can easily drop Volgin down due to his massive skill advantage despite Volgin being stronger than him physically, or Ocelot can absolutely bully Snake despite them being at least comparable in terms of LS because Ocelot is far more skilled.

 

[Twellas]

As far as im aware there is only one 8-C calc with characters consistently being harmed by feats far below that

Apparently both Peace Walker and Zeke have 8-C feats via their mobility alone, and Big Boss can take hits from them and overpower them. There could be more feats on this level, but we'll have to see

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Just out of curiosity would someone be able to pull up a clip of the explosion that put Big Boss in a 9 year coma and that blew off Venom's arm? I fel like if we can calc that it would shed some light on the whole Cocoon feat being an outlier or not

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Apparently both Peace Walker and Zeke have 8-C feats via their mobility alone, and Big Boss can take hits from them and overpower them. There could be more feats on this level, but we'll have to see

Oh thats easy to calc seeing as Peace Walker has canon specs for weight and speed

25 mph = 11.176 m/s

500 Short tons = 453592 kg

KE = 1/2m*v^2 = 226796 x 124.902976 = 28327495.3449, low end Small Building level

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Alternatively, DT recommended GPE. 0.5 * m * g * h

1. m = 453592 kg
2. g = 9.807 m/s^2 on Earth
3. h = 25 m
4. 0.5 * 453592 * 9.807 * 25 = 55604709.3 joules

Better but still only 9-A

 

[Twellas]

Just out of curiosity would someone be able to pull up a clip of the explosion that put Big Boss in a 9 year coma and that blew off Venom's arm? I fel like if we can calc that it would shed some light on the whole Cocoon feat being an outlier or not

1 Big Boss wasn't in a 9 year coma, he woke up much earlier
2 the explosion alone didn't put them into a coma, there was also the helicopter crashing into them, them falling into the ocean etcetera
3 Venom's coma was most likely due to debree piercing his brain and vital organs

Oh thats easy to calc seeing as Peace Walker has canon specs for weight and speed

25 mph = 11.176 m/s

this is the KE by running, Chariot was talking about its jump. I'm ignorant about calcs, so you're gonna have to wait for him to discuss it