Megami Tensei LN Canonicity

[HammerStrikes219]

In fact, the whole consequence of having a well-detailed sekaikan and that details from it can't be really expressed in the material that the Sekaikan was created for is whyat sometimes it's needed sequels in the same medium or adaptations into different media to really be able to express that Sekaikan. As explained by various game developers, the idea of a deeper Sekaikan that can't be really shown in the game is well-kwnon by game developers, as explained by Masaaki Kukino in "The Untold History of Japanese Game Developers

In regards to this, I have a feeling that was brought up at some point:

“JS: Sekaikan! There’s been discussion in English circles on the importance of that word. It has deep layers of meaning; the atmosphere, world lore, world view, the background behind things.

MK: Yes. The word sekaikan includes everything, it’s the magic that attracts players into the world of that arcade game.”

From my point of perspective, it specifically say “The sekaikan is the most essential part of any game.” which mean the characters, the pacing, the story, and so on that is important for a game to attract the gamers in this case, not being adapted from a game for that matter.


It never made mentions of the game necessarily adapted into a text based medium to being specific, but I have made mentions if the LN is being treated as secondary canon, then it can been used as supporting evidence in this case.

 

[Executor_N0]

From my point of perspective, it specifically say “The sekaikan is the most essential part of any game.” which mean the characters, the pacing, the story, and so on that is important for a game to attract the gamers in this case, not being adapted from a game for that matter.


It never made mentions of the game necessarily adapted into a text based medium to being specific, but I have made mentions if the LN is being treated as secondary canon, then it can been used as supporting evidence in this case.

That is just for an example of the worldview being discussed, there are various interpretation even in that same book with some developers even saying that the creation of the world isn't related to the Sekaikan and that Sekaikan is about the story, when others says that it's the background of the world that is being used in the game.

Anyway, the idea is that the general world seeing in the game and its rules is generally what is called "Sekaikan", when a side-story/adaptation of that source work is made it can create its new sekaikan based on that work, be an expasion of that sekaikan be it in just the sekaikan itself or in-continuity as well or any number of different possibilities because there's no single meaning for that or how that works. My perfect example for that would be the Digimon series (Still working on the blog to explain that), but the Megami Tensei series also seems to work a lot on the focus of its sekaikan/worldview rather than continuity/story itsel.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

That is just for an example of the worldview being discussed, there are various interpretation even in that same book with some developers even saying that the creation of the world isn't related to the Sekaikan and that Sekaikan is about the story, when others says that it's the background of the world that is being used in the game.

Anyway, the idea is that the general world seeing in the game and its rules is generally what is called "Sekaikan", when a side-story/adaptation of that source work is made it can create its new sekaikan based on that work, be an expasion of that sekaikan be it in just the sekaikan itself or in-continuity as well or any number of different possibilities because there's no single meaning for that or how that works. My perfect example for that would be the Digimon series (Still working on the blog to explain that), but the Megami Tensei series also seems to work a lot on the focus of its sekaikan/worldview rather than continuity/story itsel.

It look like Ultima Reality post a statement regarding the continuity of the series:

“ Q: What position does DDS occupy among the Megami Tensei titles?
A: It’s an exception. The title has the same abbreviation as the series’ origin, Digital Devil Story, but in itself it has the subtitle “Avatar Tuner”, as the meaning behind the story. That is why I consider it on a separate line.
The ones that I think are really part of the series are Shin Megami Tensei I, II and III or so, with Devil Summoner and Persona each being independent series. However, it’s beyond doubt that each of them has the spirit of Megaten.

Q: The familiar demon fusion system is missing as well now.
A: I did think in the past that it would be nice if the system of the original Shin Megami Tensei let you eat your enemies. Eating your enemies will make you stronger. Isn’t this a type of “fusion” too? I wanted to do this one day and we decided to use it for DDS’s system, since it’s the main theme as well. The fans might be surprised there is no fusion, but they would be able to see it under a different form. That would be nice.

Q: You mentioned earlier “the spirit of Megaten”. What is your definition of Megami Tensei?
A: I don’t know whether this is the definition of Megaten or not, but compared to it, popular RPGs have got a lot of “babyface”-like facets and even if Megaten won a challenge, it wouldn’t be an actual victory; but I think this “heel” role is what is specific of this series.
I did say “heel”, but the main point is that it’s “dark”. Not actually “gloomy”, but able to say its story in a straightforward manner, show it with no dishonesty, both the good parts, and the bad parts. The actual lack of a conclusion means not saying or showing many things, but leaving the player room to reflect about the game. This is what I believe Megaten is. [wrestling terms: babyface = “hero”; heel = “antagonist”]

Q: Do you also have a “dark” side?
A: I believe so. I guess I’m intuitively unable to make “babyface”-like things. I’ve wanted to do adult-like things ever since childhood. I hated childish things. I’m sure there are people who feel the same; I don’t do it satisfy my ego or because I’m displeased…there are times when I simply choose the “rock” way.

Q: So is this the meaning of Megami Tensei to you?
A: Yes. It’s a way of expressing many familiar things we should think about every time”

 

[HammerStrikes219]

That is just for an example of the worldview being discussed, there are various interpretation even in that same book with some developers even saying that the creation of the world isn't related to the Sekaikan and that Sekaikan is about the story, when others says that it's the background of the world that is being used in the game

Make sense, but that sounds more akin to argument of semantics rather than a solid answer to address the whole continuity issue in general.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

If both sources are separate, then I don't think new information coming 7 years later should be retroactively used for the game, when the author is not the one who got to finish the original product. It is possible that the other authors who came in made the game in their own view and that does not have to align with the author's original view. The original view that came out 7 years later with possibly more new information.

Except for the fact we know this is not the case, in-fact, she’ll tell you it herself:

Thankfully, they liked the proposal I submitted, and so I wound up temporarily living in Tokyo, having a number of talks with the Atlus team, and gradually refining the project.

Before long, I came to realize that novels and game scenarios were more different than I’d expected. The biggest difference is that, in a game scenario, you need to allow room for the player to impact the story, which is a fundamentally different way of doing things than in novels, where in general, the story unfolds from the main character’s perspective. Ultimately, I needed to work together with Atlus’ own scenario writer if I was going to get things done right. Figuring that elements like worldview, characters, and episodic progression were things both forms had in common, I wrote a story that could be workable as both a game and a novel. In order to establish the world and the setting, to develop a general sense of the story and the main characters, and to get the right atmosphere across, I wrote up the first part of the game (up to about the first boss battle) as a simple, short piece of fiction.

Which, of course, as Ultima already explained, was done through her & Tadashi’s efforts, even making use of characters that would’ve been “game-only”.

This is important because the novels in question are not composed solely of the writer's ideas for the game, but also of characters, elements, scenes and setpieces that do appear in the games as well. The main cast, for one, is the same (Same names, appearances, personalities, dynamics, occupations in the setting, and etc), and not only that, but the novels also include a character that is exclusive to the games, and was not in the original draft for the story, meaning that Yu Godai was allowed to make use of Atlus' intellectual properties as well:

Gale (Avatar Tuner)

Gale is a member of the Embryon tribe in the Digital Devil Saga duology. Digital Devil Saga: Avatar Tuner: Playable Character Digital Devil Saga: Avatar Tuner 2: Playable Character Quantum Devil Saga: Avatar Tuner He heavily resembles the person he was based upon, though with light green hair...

megamitensei.fandom.com

And indeed even the beginning of the story is basically the same across both continuities. Take this scene, for instance:


And its equivalent in the novel:
The cluster of whirling lights emitted a high-pitched sound, and then they burst apart, scattering in every direction.

A phantasmal form floated in front of him. Its shape was humanoid; looking at it felt somehow like looking into a mirror, except the face gazing back at him wasn’t human. Rather, it looked to be something carved of crystal, with millions of glittering, translucent facets. Its hair stood on end, semi-liquid, waving steadily back and forth, creating a rainbow as it moved. Energy flowed from within it in surging waves, originating from its translucent elbows and ankles, coiling up over its robust, hairless body.

Serph’s scope was hit with another burst of static as it tried to register the mysterious form, and then it displayed a single line of text.

Om Mani Padme Hum Om, jewel in the lotus, hum.

The text then seemed to melt and crumble away, coalescing back into a single word.

Varuna

God of water and sky.

The apparition approached and silently slipped into Serph’s body and vanished.

This statement leads me more to believe towards that scenario, since it makes clear that the books are Godai's take on her own original work, redone with more creative liberties since she is not limited in scope by the game.

This statement is also addressed by my earlier comment.

I am guessing you are treating the novel as secondary/tertiary canon and the game as primary canon? I can explain "an added detail to a pre-existing feat" by giving examples.

The problem with this assertion is the fact that - this is not the first time a realm of information has been referred to in this manner. Take Devil Survivor 2, in-which, Fumi states the Akashic Records (a plane of information), is unbound by the concept of coordinates, and Alcor states it apart from the regular world, above it, in-fact.

The idea of Nirvana is an idea expressed in the novel & game proper. The novels explicitly explain it as an omnipresent, infinite space, which is what you are introduced into after the manifestation of Brahman’s defeat, even to the point where the phrase “you are the world, the world is myself”, and “from here on, you and I will bare witness to many different realities”, a concept identical to what’s portrayed in the novels.

The former statement, depicting the world as you and you as it is the basic fundamental principle of “Brahman”, the ultimate reality. This isn’t just mindless conjecture, mind you, but detailed and illustrated when you are brought to the Kadath Mandala in Persona 2, and you’re introduced for Virochana, aspect of Vairocana, who questions the idea of self:

Virochana: Aye!
Virochana: Thy reflection on the water’s surface: that is thy Brahman, the truth of the universe, which is in turn thine Atman. Thou thyself art the universe, and thine self is itself the light that illuminates the soul.
Virochana: I shall support thy search for truth and award thee the radiance of thy companion which binds her world within to the world without. Thou must not forget the truth of thy oneness with Brahman…

Should you respond incorrectly, he says: Then what is the Thou before me? Know that to deny thy oneness with Brahman is in other words to return thyself and the universe to nothingness. Virochana: Thou “Maya” – thou illusory woman who attempts to shroud That Thou Art – begone!

Maya, translating to “illusion”, suggests that the “material world” is but an illusion, and a lie, and true awakening is realizing there is no “self”, as elaborated by Sakya, who resides in Nirvana (Kadath), free of restraints. The Kadath itself is even described as Macrocosm (universe), and Microcosm (man), and should Umr-at-Tawil die, the binary between self and unity will vanish, merging the latter into the former, erasing individual consciousness.

With this, it’s more than proven the idea of Nirvana being a universal concept in the franchise proper, and not just a one-off exclusive to DDS & QDS.

 

[Zencha9]

I share the same opinion as ex regarding canonicity and from what i saw the collective unconscious was always treated as a place that is unbound by matter space and time in megami tensei series (as stated in DS2 persona q2) and what the novel adds is not really a "feat" per say but just describing the events of reaching said status

 

[AKM sama]

even more in relation to derivative works based on the Sekaikan/Worldview.

We don't follow the Japanese worldview in the wiki. They might not have any established view for what is canon but we do.

This is like having a novel adaptation from the anime and thinking that nothing new should be added to the novel because the anime has both the dialogue and image, there's a lot more that written text can give

If the novel is written by the same author who made the manga/anime, then sure. We already do that for Bleach. This is not exactly the one-to-one case as your example though. Here you have a set of writers making a game. And another writer making a novel.

Which, of course, as Ultima already explained, was done through her & Tadashi’s efforts, even making use of characters that would’ve been “game-only”.

The excerpt you quoted above is a strong point in favor of the novel being written in accordance with the game. It leads me to believe that both sources didn't have separate views that were doing their own things, but that they were eyeing for the same thing. If this was posted before, then I apologize for not reading it.

The problem with this assertion is the fact that - this is not the first time a realm of information has been referred to in this manner. Take Devil Survivor 2, in-which, Fumi states the Akashic Records (a plane of information), is unbound by the concept of coordinates, and Alcor states it apart from the regular world, above it, in-fact.

This works as supporting evidence.

To make my stance clear, I disagree with the sentiment that this is an "added detail to an already existing feat". It is added "new" information. Whether we are taking it into account for the game depends on how closely the novel is tied to the games. It depends on whether both sources were doing their own thing and as a result have many differences, or whether the novel was made by the author with the help of the game's creators, in accordance with the games. In the former scenario we would keep both as separate, in the latter scenario we will treat it as "it is okay as long as it doesn't contradict the game".

 

[Dr._whiteee]

To make my stance clear, I disagree with the sentiment that this is an "added detail to an already existing feat". It is added "new" information. Whether we are taking it into account for the game depends on how closely the novel is tied to the games. It depends on whether both sources were doing their own thing and as a result have many differences, or whether the novel was made by the author with the help of the game's creators, in accordance with the games. In the former scenario we would keep both as separate, in the latter scenario we will treat it as "it is okay as long as it doesn't contradict the game".

It is a strict adaptation of the novel. The sole reason a seperate “writer” was added was to help Yu (a novelist by trade) condense her story into a game narrative. Atlus wrote it into her contract that she would be allowed to expand upon the source material of the games in a novel format due to her aforementioned issues.
The novel and the game share the same settings, characters, worldview, etc.

it was also discussed above that Megami tensei is extremely loose with canon. Nearly every game gets supplementary material in the form of novels, anime, manga, etc. A major point of the games is that every playthrough is it’s own separate reality which stresses player choice that leads to diverging storylines. Yu is especially positioned given that she authored both the primary source and the novel.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

To make my stance clear, I disagree with the sentiment that this is an "added detail to an already existing feat". It is added "new" information. Whether we are taking it into account for the game depends on how closely the novel is tied to the games. It depends on whether both sources were doing their own thing and as a result have many differences, or whether the novel was made by the author with the help of the game's creators, in accordance with the games. In the former scenario we would keep both as separate, in the latter scenario we will treat it as "it is okay as long as it doesn't contradict the game".

To build off from what whiteee said, from the excerpt that Milly quoted you can see that Yu Godai did specify that to establish the world and setting, she wrote a framework for the story that was then developed on alongside other writers, and that eventually became Digital Devil Saga. It wasn't really her working solely on the beginning of the storyline and letting the others continue crafting it so much as her creating the outline of the entire thing and then working on it with their help, which is why, in spite of the differences, a number of things, from start to finish, are the same across both game and novels. For instance, the characters turning into Hindu Gods to cannibalize other demons was something they all came up with together:

Playstation.com Kaneko Kazuma interview, 2004 [Digital Devil Saga]

Remember that Meguro interview thing? Turns out the one I actually wanted to translate was Kaneko’s but I made a…slight miscalculation at some point. So here it is! Warning for long ass interview, …

dijehtranslations.wordpress.com

The characters reflect the theme

Q: Now, on to your main work, character design. Is the theme also reflected in the character design?
A: Of course. The basis of the game was the characters “eating” their enemies but since we simply couldn’t have them eat in their human forms, we figured they should do it after turning into demons. This is why the characters who turn into demons have prominent mouths; I also removed the eyes, because they stood out too much.

And yet, as you can see above, it does feature prominently in the novels and is a main theme of them, just like in the games.

Furthermore, I don't really see why you argue that the information itself is new. We do know that information, at its core, is not really bound to the concept of coordinates, just not exactly in what manner or to what degree, and this is really what the novel tells us of, ontop of, again, the phenomenon of dissolving into the unconscious world having always existed in the verse, much like Nirvana itself. It's not really too dissimilar to the example you gave up there, in my view.

 

[Agnaa]

A game can have a different pacing from the book in the same scene, giving the book a lot more space and time to describe what is happening there.

It doesn't take many words to say "Or possibly, what I had done was expand beyond even the concept of 'dimension' and into an unknown space." That excuse does not seem viable to me.

I don't really understand the point of bringing up all this Sekaikan stuff, we don't evaluate canon through that framework.

The "feat" does happen in the game, we are shown the character reaching Nirvana and understanding its state as one with the world and being able to experience many realities beyond their own. All that the novel gives is put more detail about the metaphysical nature of said experience, with includes the place being maybe beyond the very concept of dimensions and not just "a higher dimension".

Picking at the specific word "feat" like this by saying that "details about the metaphysical nature of feats" don't count is just digging for a loophole. The pages would work just as fine if instead of the shorthand "feat" they said "anything that causes a change in the indexing of a character".

It depends on whether both sources were doing their own thing and as a result have many differences, or whether the novel was made by the author with the help of the game's creators, in accordance with the games.

As far as I'm aware, the novel wasn't made with the help of the game's creators. The quote Milly posted is describing how Yu Godai, as an LN author, tried to write for a game, requiring collaboration with the writers, but writing many things similar to a novel due to the qualities the mediums share.

This doesn't indicate that half a decade later the game's creators had any input on it.

It is a strict adaptation of the novel.

Are you saying that the novel was complete at the time of writing the game, but that Yu Godai decided not to publish it for 7 years?

Furthermore, I don't really see why you argue that the information itself is new. We do know that information, at its core, is not really bound to the concept of coordinates, just not exactly in what manner or to what degree, and this is really what the novel tells us of

The LN's information is new for the exact reason you said; without the LN you don't know the manner or degree, and with it you do.

It's not really too dissimilar to the example you gave up there, in my view.

For one, those examples were a corresponding scene in both mediums. I've asked before whether the quotes from the LN you're using have corresponding scenes in the games, to which I didn't get an answer. Secondly, our rules page specifies that this is done when the primary canon is text-based and the tertiary canon isn't, which is not the situation here.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'd like to point out that I agree 100% with Executor on his comments about how "Worldview and Setting" matter a lot more to Japanese Franchises than the Western Comicbook-inspired concept of Canon. I would even say that Shin Megami Tensei V, which I'm currently watching Playthroughts of on Youtube, is a major example of this, because while the game is undoubtedly "canon" it throws away many established concepts from previous games and creates new concepts with careless abandon for potential contradictions because it's far more interested in its own story's "Worldview" than any notion of abiding by Canon.

 

[Wokistan]

Said I'd comment on this but then irl stuff happens to edit my schedule and the thread is long, so here's an otherwise useless comment to say that I didn't forget about this and I'll see if I can slip this in later tomorrow.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

As far as I'm aware, the novel wasn't made with the help of the game's creators. The quote Milly posted is describing how Yu Godai, as an LN author, tried to write for a game, requiring collaboration with the writers, but writing many things similar to a novel due to the qualities the mediums share.

This is very blatantly wrong, though. Once again, referring to the creation of the Mantra was something Kaneko (Atlus employee) & Yu Godai conceptualized together, that exists in both novel & game proper:

The characters reflect the theme

Q: Now, on to your main work, character design. Is the theme also reflected in the character design?
A: Of course. The basis of the game was the characters “eating” their enemies but since we simply couldn’t have them eat in their human forms, we figured they should do it after turning into demons. This is why the characters who turn into demons have prominent mouths; I also removed the eyes, because they stood out too much.

The fact that Gale, a character that was not in the original draft, made it into the story, means Yu Godai would have to take & make use it Atlus specific property with (unless she is to be sued to oblivion, as Tadashi picked up the story after her departure), which she does:

“Heat. You are Heat, right?”
“Of course I am.” Heat scowled. “You sure you’re you, Serph? Come on, Argilla and Gale are over there.”
Argilla. Gale.
Serph’s vision went blurry for a moment, and he staggered.
“Argilla” was the call sign of Embryon’s sniper, just as “Gale” was the name of the bishop, the taciturn analyst who devised their strategies.
And Heat was their best combatant, the Embryon’s number two, on par with Serph himself. He had fought alongside Serph since the beginning, earning his spot as one of the key members of the tribe

And we know that was okay with Atlus themselves, they permitted her in their contract, and if it wasn’t, it would’ve breached their contract:

I wound up having to leave the team, but I was able to continue working on what I had been writing (as the initial contract allowed for publication of a novel version of what I wrote).

And not simply just a novel, Yu Godai specifically says novel and game:

Ultimately, I needed to work together with Atlus’ own scenario writer if I was going to get things done right. Figuring that elements like worldview, characters, and episodic progression were things both forms had in common, I wrote a story that could be workable as both a game and a novel.

Which is backed up by the fact that the basis of QDS is DDS:

What I turned in was a proposal for Digital Devil Saga, which this novel is ultimately based on.

The thing is here, the fact that Gale (again, a Tadashi [Atlus] created character) is allowed to be used by Godai has a lot of ramifications. It means that she:

A. Didn’t breach contract.
B. Hayakawa Publishing was allowed to publish official Atlus property without their intervention.
C. Bento Books, who worked with Hayakawa Publishing for distribution, and have Shin Megami Tensei as Atlus property listed on the back, is far more valid in asserting its apart of Shin Megami Tensei - as there’s no interjection by Atlus themselves.

For one, those examples were a corresponding scene in both mediums. I've asked before whether the quotes from the LN you're using have corresponding scenes in the games, to which I didn't get an answer.

There is, in-fact, is:

The idea of Nirvana is an idea expressed in the novel & game proper. The novels explicitly explain it as an omnipresent, infinite space, which is what you are introduced into after the manifestation of Brahman’s defeat, even to the point where the phrase “you are the world, the world is myself”, and “from here on, you and I will bare witness to many different realities”, a concept identical to what’s portrayed in the novels.

 

[Agnaa]

This is very blatantly wrong, though. Once again, referring to the creation of the Mantra was something Kaneko (Atlus employee) & Yu Godai conceptualized together, that exists in both novel & game proper:

The fact that Gale, a character that was not in the original draft, made it into the story, means Yu Godai would have to take & make use it Atlus specific property with (unless she is to be sued to oblivion, as Tadashi picked up the story after her departure), which she does:

These things you're saying are evidence are not what you're claiming.

You are claiming that Atlus employees directly helped Yu Godai write the LN.

For proof of this, you are showing that Atlus employees helped Yu Godai when writing the game, and that she used that knowledge when later writing the LNs. All this proves is that Yu Godai has a memory. You are also showing that Yu included a character from the games in the LN. All this proves is that Yu played the games (or at least knew of the existence of that character) and decided to incorporate it in her story.

And not simply just a novel, Yu Godai specifically says novel and game:

Yes, Yu Godai says that she wrote certain things in a way that's workable as both a game and a novel, because she didn't know how to write for games, and wrote things that were common to both mediums in a way that works for both mediums. This is just a writing technique.

The thing is here, the fact that Gale (again, a Tadashi [Atlus] created character) is allowed to be used by Godai has a lot of ramifications. It means that she:

A. Didn’t breach contract.
B. Hayakawa Publishing was allowed to publish official Atlus property without their intervention.
C. Bento Books, who worked with Hayakawa Publishing for distribution, and have Shin Megami Tensei as Atlus property listed on the back, is far more valid in asserting its apart of Shin Megami Tensei - as there’s no interjection by Atlus themselves.

This would be useful if I ever claimed that she breached contract, that the publishing company broke the law, or that Atlus saw them as having violated copyright.

There is, in-fact, is:

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. When I ask for a corresponding scene, I am asking for a scene where almost the exact same thing happens, with only minor differences. A conversation can also be a corresponding scene, if it's largely the same with a few lines removed/added/rearranged here and there.

Simply telling me that Nirvana was talked about in the games does not answer this question, since as far as I'm aware, that can be talked about in different contexts.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

These things you're saying are evidence are not what you're claiming.

You are claiming that Atlus employees directly helped Yu Godai write the LN.

For proof of this, you are showing that Atlus employees helped Yu Godai when writing the game, and that she used that knowledge when later writing the LNs. All this proves is that Yu Godai has a memory. You are also showing that Yu included a character from the games in the LN. All this proves is that Yu played the games (or at least knew of the existence of that character) and decided to incorporate it in her story.

They helped Yu with the power system that exists in both game and novel.

Yu got the okay from Atlus to use a game exclusive character. Even if she played the games and had knowledge, she would need permission from Atlus to incorporate it, Tadashi made him, not her, and yet, they helped & allowed him in the novel.

Like, I’m not understanding your argument. She’s using things from Atlus property, that she either:

A. Helped make.
B. Got the okay to do.

What exactly is your definition of “help writing the novel”?

Yes, Yu Godai says that she wrote certain things in a way that's workable as both a game and a novel, because she didn't know how to write for games, and wrote things that were common to both mediums in a way that works for both mediums. This is just a writing technique.

Yes, she got help from Atlus in writing the original story:

Ultimately, I needed to work together with Atlus’ own scenario writer if I was going to get things done right. Figuring that elements like worldview, characters, and episodic progression were things both forms had in common, I wrote a story that could be workable as both a game and a novel.

And used the help she got from the original story to create Quantum Devil Saga:

What I turned in was a proposal for Digital Devil Saga, which this novel is ultimately based on.

Politely stop responding to half the argument. They helped her with the story, and the story she wrote is based on the collaborative effort.

This would be useful if I ever claimed that she breached contract, that the publishing company broke the law, or that Atlus saw them as having violated copyright.

You do realize that the fact that she didn’t breach any of those standards means that Atlus sees no problem with this, right? The very definition of copyright is:

the exclusive legal right, given to an originator or an assignee to print, publish, perform, film, or record literary, artistic, or musical material, and to authorize others to do the same.

And a publishing company, and translator company didn’t infringe on any of this, which, again, is supported by the fact that the Shin Megami Tensei copyright is literally on the back of the book:

Redirect Notice

images.app.goo.gl

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. When I ask for a corresponding scene, I am asking for a scene where almost the exact same thing happens, with only minor differences. A conversation can also be a corresponding scene, if it's largely the same with a few lines removed/added/rearranged here and there.

Simply telling me that Nirvana was talked about in the games does not answer this question, since as far as I'm aware, that can be talked about in different contexts.

Maybe you are simply not understanding me. If you would, politely, look at the scans (which have been provided translations by multiple sources), detail the very Nirvana that is portrayed in game, and how it works. I left multiple scans, I don’t like how you reduce it to “they talk about it”. If you assert they are not, prove it.

 

[Agnaa]

They helped Yu with the power system that exists in both game and novel.

Yu got the okay from Atlus to use a game exclusive character. Even if she played the games and had knowledge, she would need permission from Atlus to incorporate it, Tadashi made him, not her, and yet, they helped & allowed him in the novel.

Like, I’m not understanding your argument. She’s using things from Atlus property, that she either:

A. Helped make.
B. Got the okay to do.

What exactly is your definition of “help writing the novel”?

Didn't she got the okay to use things like that through her contract, which would've been signed before starting work on the game?

"Help writing the novel" involves them having direct contact with her to give input or advice on the process of her writing the novel specifically, something which seemingly took place many years after the game.

Yes, she got help from Atlus in writing the original story:

And used the help she got from the original story to create Quantum Devil Saga:

Politely stop responding to half the argument. They helped her with the story, and the story she wrote is based on the collaborative effort.

She got help with writing the story from the game, there's nothing indicating she continued to get help with writing the story after she stopped working on the game, and started working on the novel.

You do realize that the fact that she didn’t breach any of those standards means that Atlus sees no problem with this, right? The very definition of copyright is:

And a publishing company, and translator company didn’t infringe on any of this, which, again, is supported by the fact that the Shin Megami Tensei copyright is literally on the back of the book:

That's not what that means. We have established over and over again that she signed a contract giving her those rights in advance of working on the game or the novel. No ******* shit she wouldn't end up infringing on rights she already has. Companies (usually) don't just get to say "lol we'll be taking those back actually". This does not indicate that Atlus was happy with the end product, all this indicates is that the contract she signed 7 years earlier still applies.

Maybe you are simply not understanding me. If you would, politely, look at the scans (which have been provided translations by multiple sources), detail the very Nirvana that is portrayed in game, and how it works. I left multiple scans, I don’t like how you reduce it to “they talk about it”. If you assert they are not, prove it.

Well I would've taken your word on it, but I've read it now, and the scene in the game is absolutely different from the scene in the scans. Maybe they are describing the world, but the scenes and how they play out are wildly different. There is no dialogue shared.

Hence, I can't consider those novel quotes an elaboration on an existing scene's details.

So I'll ask again, is there a scene in the game you can show me that corresponds to the scene in the novel which the primary quote evidencing 1-A (appearing to be from page 199-200) is from?

Actually, now I'm also curious why this scan you just linked is the exact same (minus two differences in comma placement) as this scan from the OP of the last thread until the third paragraph, where they both become vastly different.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Remaking my comment, gimme a second.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

For the record, Milly agreed to let me respond in his stead. Given that, I should take the opportunity to address the arguments from the first page, since it seems like I missed a lot in-between my second comment and my response to Executor. Either way, this will most likely be long, so:

Just because two separate authors have legal rights to write in a setting, does not mean they each intend for their settings to be canon to each other.

And if Atlus decided that "wrapping up the kinks" involved removing the 1-A statement, we should respect that, and not what Yu went off to do afterwards.

Because of the pre-commitment in the contract, they lost the ability to address problems with the exact ways she expands upon their IP. When hiring/contracting publishers/authors to create other works for them, they're still in control of that. If you just give everyone else the rights to expand on your work (i.e. by making it public domain) that doesn't make everyone else's works canon, basically I think creative control of the primary entity is the main factor, not IP rights, as IP rights alone fail in many areas.

That's not what that means. We have established over and over again that she signed a contract giving her those rights in advance of working on the game or the novel. No ******* shit she wouldn't end up infringing on rights she already has. Companies (usually) don't just get to say "lol we'll be taking those back actually". This does not indicate that Atlus was happy with the end product, all this indicates is that the contract she signed 7 years earlier still applies.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on these statements and the question regarding Atlus' creative power over Quantum Devil Saga, I assume you're discussing canon based on uncertainties regarding the creative intent of the author, no? If that's the case, I'm not sure how well that goes here, considering that Yu Godai worked on all of the parts of the worldview that ultimately made it into the games, and so the 1-A statement, as with everything else that crosses over between both continuities, is not much different from a "Word of God"-type statement, at least in the sense that it transmits her intent regarding what she pitched and then developed for a time, and which came out the same in essence. Under those premises the only contention is whether this intent is contradicted.

She may not have been employed by Atlus when writing the novels, sure, but, for reference, back when I pointed out that a few profiles from Minecraft were actually 1-C going by the profiles' justification, the argument first brought up and most accepted against the very existence of the affected profiles at all was an interview with the author of the End Poem, who was not affiliated with Mojang by the time of the interview and (As far as I'm aware) served only as a freelance writer for the Poem itself (Much like Yu Godai did for Digital Devil Saga). The thread ended up being accepted and the profiles deleted as a result, so, as far as I can tell, when they are not contradicted, concrete expressions of original author intent can indeed be taken as valid.

Based on how the rest of the discussion went and the summary of it in this post, I assume the answer to that is something to the effect of "They changed the scenario after she left anyway," but fumbling over whether Atlus as a company or the other writer (Tadashi Satomi, who as noted was only there to translate her narrative into a playable form) would disagree with the statement is pointless, especially given how specific and only of interest to battleboarding it is, and since Godai left after what she described as "a number of talks" with Atlus over which she refined the project, and then working on it further with Satomi. In lieu of actual word from Atlus, the contract's existence very much speaks for itself.

Because public domain works give everyone power over IP, but don't give everyone power over canon. Someone who was contracted to make a manga adaptation could say that a certain novel isn't canon, but that wouldn't matter, since their authority only lies with the manga adaptation; the novel author would be the one with authority over canon.

If you just give everyone else the rights to expand on your work (i.e. by making it public domain) that doesn't make everyone else's works canon, basically I think creative control of the primary entity is the main factor, not IP rights, as IP rights alone fail in many areas.

To extend the above argument: That's a flawed equivalency because the degree to which different people can be involved in your work also differs, and the expiring of its copyright makes its properties liable to be exploited by multiple random people regardless of how distant from the original production they were, what impact they had, and what setting they had in mind, which is why canon and extra-canon are divided to begin with. If Quantum Devil Saga came from the head of some random janitor at Atlus instead, I sure as hell wouldn't want to use that.

Huh? We've already established that the contract allows them to do that, that doesn't mean that the western LN publisher decides what the video game company accepts as canon.

It means that their usage of the SMT trademark falls under fair use regardless, since in all cases, you are simply not allowed to use another company's trademark to inaccurately describe an aspect of your product or claim ties to theirs (And as far as I am aware, that applies to online advertising, too, though I'm not as certain on that one, so, corrections are welcome). At the very least direct permission is required in exchange for a payment, in such cases.

And, although I'm less certain on this, as far as I'm aware, any details added to feats would have to be done in a corresponding scene, not in an entirely new scene.

Is that so? AKM's example specifically made mention of "an added scene," so given that, I assumed the above was fine. If what you say holds, then I'm willing to cut that branch of the argument. The scene at the very end, where Schrodinger welcomes his counterpart into Nirvana, does have a direct correspondence with DDS2's ending scene, and since we are deeming Megami Tensei as a whole to be the primary canon, losing your ego and dissolving into the unconscious is also something that's featured plenty of times. But Serph explaining his experiences in Nirvana to the rest of the cast indeed doesn't have a corresponding scene (For the reasons explained below), at least, as far as I recall.

It doesn't take many words to say "Or possibly, what I had done was expand beyond even the concept of 'dimension' and into an unknown space." That excuse does not seem viable to me.

In this case, it would be. In the book, the 1-A statement is done by Serph, the protagonist, who in the game isn't at liberty to speak anyway because of Atlus demanding that he be made into a silent character whose only actions are made by the player, and since otherwise no one else experiences that again in either the novel or game, the core nature of God and the world at large is rendered a mystery to everyone involved up until the very end. The nature of the protagonist is one of the limitations of a video game medium Yu Godai mentioned in her afterword, even.

You are claiming that Atlus employees directly helped Yu Godai write the LN.

For proof of this, you are showing that Atlus employees helped Yu Godai when writing the game, and that she used that knowledge when later writing the LNs. All this proves is that Yu Godai has a memory. You are also showing that Yu included a character from the games in the LN. All this proves is that Yu played the games (or at least knew of the existence of that character) and decided to incorporate it in her story.

See above. Yu Godai and Tadashi Satomi nevertheless still colaborated on the aspect of scenario writing that involved the setting and worldview of the game, and any changes made by him after she left were by and large focused on the arrangement of the story that sprung from this setting. It's still reflected both in Quantum Devil Saga and in Digital Devil Saga.

Didn't she got the okay to use things like that through her contract, which would've been signed before starting work on the game?

That's true enough, yeah, since Atlus commissioned her to write the scenario and plot to begin with. Gale's presence in the novels does show that the terms of her contract allowed her to make use of material exclusive to Atlus that was not yet instantiated in the original draft at the time, but I'm not too sure on how that'd impact the discussion if I'm understanding you correctly.

Actually, now I'm also curious why this scan you just linked is the exact same (minus two differences in comma placement) as this scan from the OP of the last thread until the third paragraph, where they both become vastly different.

That was an error, it seems. For reference, the scene happens throughout pages 199-200, with the 1-A statement starting right after the paragraph where the narration describes Serph and Sera's mutual understanding over the realm he was in. Here is page 200, if you want to extract the text and confirm for yourself.

 

[Agnaa]

as far as I can tell, when they are not contradicted, concrete expressions of original author intent can indeed be taken as valid.

Considering other works by the same author that explore the same topic to be word of god sounds really weird. And again, I find it weird to take Yu Godai as the sole "original author" here. As far as I'm aware, many games have internal documents describing their worldbuilding, which get distilled through writers into cutscenes and dialogue. But then again, there's a similar form of distillation for most media made by many dozens of people, yet we still take WoG from one or two staffers on it a lot of the time.

I do also wonder if giving explicitly 1-A statements rather than just supporting evidence is actually considered usable WoG as an expression of "original author intent". It does feel a step apart from the Minecraft situation, which was a question of how literal that dialogue was to be taken, where the interview established it as a metaphor.

I'm aware that none of these responses to the WoG angle are slam-dunks, but they all make it feel a lil sussy to me.

To extend the above argument: That's a flawed equivalency because the degree to which different people can be involved in your work also differs, and the expiring of its copyright makes its properties liable to be exploited by multiple random people regardless of how distant from the original production they were, what impact they had, and what setting they had in mind, which is why canon and extra-canon are divided to begin with. If Quantum Devil Saga came from the head of some random janitor at Atlus instead, I sure as hell wouldn't want to use that.

It is a difference of degree, sure, but I did that purposefully to highlight that being legally allowed to write in a setting shouldn't be used uncritically. There's many more nuanced situations, such as properties being licensed off to different companies who decide to do their own things with them (I think many superheroes have had things like this), or properties which were designed to be able to be written by anyone without permission, such as SCP, which you are allowed to use copyrighted material for even if you're not writing on the site itself iirc.

For most of the rest of your post, I didn't have much to say beyond "Ah, I see."

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

That was an error, it seems. For reference, the scene happens throughout pages 199-200, with the 1-A statement starting right after the paragraph where the narration describes Serph and Sera's mutual understanding over the realm he was in. Here is page 200, if you want to extract the text and confirm for yourself.

To add onto this, back when we made Part I (1-A thread to begin with), we were rushing to get it out, and I had stayed up late, as such, I only copied the important part of the scan to Scan 04, which is why that scan is drastically reduced compared to the other 3 scans.

Considering other works by the same author that explore the same topic to be word of god sounds really weird. And again, I find it weird to take Yu Godai as the sole "original author" here. As far as I'm aware, many games have internal documents describing their worldbuilding, which get distilled through writers into cutscenes and dialogue. But then again, there's a similar form of distillation for most media made by many dozens of people, yet we still take WoG from one or two staffers on it a lot of the time.

I do also wonder if giving explicitly 1-A statements rather than just supporting evidence is actually considered usable WoG as an expression of "original author intent". It does feel a step apart from the Minecraft situation, which was a question of how literal that dialogue was to be taken, where the interview established it as a metaphor.

Actually, you’d be wrong here. In both credits to DDS, Tadashi & Yu are credited, and Yu is especially highlighted with “original plot”.

For most of the rest of your post, I didn't have much to say beyond "Ah, I see."

So, are you okay with it’s canonicity?

 

[Agnaa]

Actually, you’d be wrong here. In both credits to DDS, Tadashi & Yu are credited, and Yu is especially highlighted with “original plot”.

I don't see how them being credited, and Yu being credited in that way, makes any of what I said wrong there.

So, are you okay with it’s canonicity?

No? I don't take issue with Ultima saying things like "Here's why the scans had that error, but the content is still valid" and "Actually Serph's a silent protagonist so it had to be expressed in LN format" but those things don't instantly convince me of its canonicity. They're mostly side-side-arguments without direct relevancy to canonicity. I think I've listed about half a dozen things that would make me instantly consider it canon, but those responses are just like, shifting one of multiple sub-arguments by a few % points in plausibility.

ofc with the exception of the reinterpretation as WoG stuff, which I described my feelings on in the last post.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I think I've listed about half a dozen things that would make me instantly consider it canon, but those responses are just like, shifting one of multiple sub-arguments by a few % points in plausibility.

Okay, do you mind restating them, as clear & concise as possible, so I can gather my response & evidence?

 

[Agnaa]

Okay, do you mind restating them, as clear & concise as possible, so I can gather my response & evidence?

1. If Atlus had any hand in publishing (funding, aiding in negotiations for publishing, or directly publishing it themselves).
2. If Atlus ever advertised or promoted it in any form.
3. If Atlus or any relatively important employee (not a janitor) at the time of making the statement called it canon.
4. If Atlus paid her to specifically write the LN (and not paid her to write materials for the game which she later ended up repurposing for the LN).
5. If any later Atlus game referenced events that occurred in the LN and only in the LN, in a manner indicating they took place in the same multiverse.
6. If Atlus or any relatively important employee ever gave personalized advice to Yu in relation to the writing of specifically the LN, either after being asked for general advice, or after looking over a draft of the LN.

There might be some others I'm overlooking, but that's all I can think of at 11:30 pm.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Thank you, response will come soon.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Following

 

[Elizhaa]

I disagree with the change, from the opposition's points like Ultima's, Dr. whiteee's, Executor's, and Milly's.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation Elizhaa.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Considering other works by the same author that explore the same topic to be word of god sounds really weird. And again, I find it weird to take Yu Godai as the sole "original author" here. As far as I'm aware, many games have internal documents describing their worldbuilding, which get distilled through writers into cutscenes and dialogue. But then again, there's a similar form of distillation for most media made by many dozens of people, yet we still take WoG from one or two staffers on it a lot of the time.

I'd say that depends on how connected those other works are, since you can obviously express a concept in different ways and through distinct lenses throughout separate stories. I find this instance to be similar to a WoG statement largely because, as said, Quantum Devil Saga is a story placed in the same world and setting of Digital Devil Saga that reflects the views of one of its original authors, with some of those views being about things that remained intact in concept throughout both. If it was just some story completely unrelated to Digital Devil Saga in any way that just so happened to also have Hindu / Buddhist themes in it, or if the concept of Nirvana was removed from the final product, I'd agree with you there, but neither of those things are the case here.

As far as we know, scenario writing for the game was also mostly done by Yu Godai and Tadashi Satomi, with some others like Kazuma Kaneko helping some of the basic concepts of the world take shape very early on and then being assigned to other duties. The addition of one more writer into the mix (That later became the only one, who even then was still working off of the outline he and Yu worked on) being used as counter-evidence seems very weak to me, especially given what you said.

I do also wonder if giving explicitly 1-A statements rather than just supporting evidence is actually considered usable WoG as an expression of "original author intent". It does feel a step apart from the Minecraft situation, which was a question of how literal that dialogue was to be taken, where the interview established it as a metaphor.

I don't see much of a distinction, myself. The End Poem, for instance, can easily be taken as literal on its own, hence the previous existence of the profiles for it, and the factor of it being metaphorical was not introduced into the subject until the author expressed his intent behind the writing in the interview. Information is information, and when uncontradicted, it should be perfectly usable.

It is a difference of degree, sure, but I did that purposefully to highlight that being legally allowed to write in a setting shouldn't be used uncritically. There's many more nuanced situations, such as properties being licensed off to different companies who decide to do their own things with them (I think many superheroes have had things like this), or properties which were designed to be able to be written by anyone without permission, such as SCP, which you are allowed to use copyrighted material for even if you're not writing on the site itself iirc.

Of course, but that just ties into the argument above; I'd place Yu Godai's word well above that of some random person who never had any interaction with the development of the story, since she nevertheless still worked on the game's scenario, and that included several things that ended up making into the games. Nuances exist, like you said, and I, at least, never argued that her views on the setting should be accepted solely because Atlus let her work with their stuff.

Moreover I said that in part because you brought up that Atlus allowing Yu Godai to use their material in a set of novels does not necessarily mean that they were fine with her modifications, which is silly to me because they were the ones who granted her the rights to do those to begin with. Couple that with lack of actual spoken word from the company, and I don't think you can reliably say "They were not fine with this extremely specific statement" without throwing unfalsifiable claims into the air, arguing off of sheer possibility, or locking yourself into a VBW-centric mindset.

"Actually Serph's a silent protagonist so it had to be expressed in LN format" but those things don't instantly convince me of its canonicity

For the record, I said this mostly in response to the "If they didn't have an issue with the 1-A statement, they'd have included it," which I obviously find silly for a myriad of reasons, but this (Alongside the things above) is one of them.

1. If Atlus had any hand in publishing (funding, aiding in negotiations for publishing, or directly publishing it themselves).
2. If Atlus ever advertised or promoted it in any form.
3. If Atlus or any relatively important employee (not a janitor) at the time of making the statement called it canon.
4. If Atlus paid her to specifically write the LN (and not paid her to write materials for the game which she later ended up repurposing for the LN).
5. If any later Atlus game referenced events that occurred in the LN and only in the LN, in a manner indicating they took place in the same multiverse.
6. If Atlus or any relatively important employee ever gave personalized advice to Yu in relation to the writing of specifically the LN, either after being asked for general advice, or after looking over a draft of the LN.

There might be some others I'm overlooking, but that's all I can think of at 11:30 pm.

I don't see much of that as necessary, given that, in my view, you have not yet explained why the conditions brought up above are invalid or unreliable (Including the addition of the Shin Megami Tensei trademark in advertisement for the novel). The bolded tidbit in particular is something you've already taken no issue with from what I can gather, so I don't see why you list it as a possible demand, either.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't see much of a distinction, myself. The End Poem, for instance, can easily be taken as literal on its own, hence the previous existence of the profiles for it, and the factor of it being metaphorical was not introduced into the subject until the author expressed his intent behind the writing in the interview. Information is information, and when uncontradicted, it should be perfectly usable.

Information that changes how you interpret information, but still ultimately just relies on the base information provided, is different from adding information which, while somewhat similar to the base information, provides new details which cross our threshold of evidence. Whether you think that make it unusable or not, I think there's a distinction there.

Moreover I said that in part because you brought up that Atlus allowing Yu Godai to use their material in a set of novels does not necessarily mean that they were fine with her modifications, which is silly to me because they were the ones who granted her the rights to do those to begin with. Couple that with lack of actual spoken word from the company, and I don't think you can reliably say "They were not fine with this extremely specific statement" without throwing unfalsifiable claims into the air, arguing off of sheer possibility, or locking yourself into a VBW-centric mindset.

I don't understand why you see it as silly. Allowing someone to write a novel with your property does not mean that you'd be okay with literally any way they could write the novel.

I don't think the sorts of requirements that I outlined are so stringent they could never be met. In fact, I find it really hard to think of any other property on this site with accepted dubiously-canon material that doesn't meet some or many of those requirements. If "unfalsifiable" just means "is claiming something which we have no evidence on", then I don't see that as a bad thing, it's something we do on the site constantly. We don't have direct author confirmation on every potential bit of flowery language, a lot of the time we just need to infer.

For the record, I said this mostly in response to the "If they didn't have an issue with the 1-A statement, they'd have included it," which I obviously find silly for a myriad of reasons, but this (Alongside the things above) is one of them.

Right, I understand the context in which you brought it up and how it was a valid refutation. I brought it up as an example of a tangent of a tangent of a tangent, the acceptance of which only slightly moves my view on canonicity, rather than completely flipping it.

I don't see much of that as necessary, given that, in my view, you have not yet explained why the conditions brought up above are invalid or unreliable (Including the addition of the Shin Megami Tensei trademark in advertisement for the novel).

I have, repeatedly. I don't know what to do if you don't think I've explained that at this point. A glance through many of my posts here will find my responses to "But she was allowed to use their IP in the novel!"

The bolded tidbit in particular is something you've already taken no issue with from what I can gather, so I don't see why you list it as a possible demand, either.

The wording is similar so I understand the confusion.

At the time of the linked post, I was worried that the LN having differences from the game it was adapting implied a contradiction, and thus that they couldn't be canon to each other. This was cleared up by explanations that MT features a wide multiverse with similar characters going through similar events in different timelines. In short, I believed there was a contradiction, but was corrected.

In the part you bolded, I am asking for affirmation of canonicity. An affirmation that they're in the same greater reality as each other. This is a step beyond asking for no contradictions.

Joe Author writes two stories, one with character A doing B in town C. One with character X doing Y in town Z. These do not contradict each other, as they could all theoretically exist in the same reality, but there is nothing affirming that they are in the same reality. To do that, Joe Author would need to write a story where, say, character A meets character X, or goes to town Z.

My wording didn't stop just at "referencing events", going on to include "in a manner indicating they're in the same multiverse" because sometimes fiction employs meta humor and references that don't imply that the thing being referenced is really in their reality. Even though I seriously doubt something like that would happen with MT referencing an associated LN, I wanted to rule it out just in case.

 

[DarkGrath]

Alright, I've been asked to give my perspective here. To be frank, since I haven't had any involvement on this thread before, I was uninvolved with the previous discussion, and I'm otherwise fairly clueless on the verse, I'm not certain I understand every single detail. At this point, re-reading every sentence written multiple times to ensure I fully grasp every point that has been made thus far isn't feasible, so my opinion likely isn't as well informed as it should be. If that's enough to disregard what I have to say, then so be it. Nevertheless, I do have a perspective on this issue.

The question about whether this fits standards for canonicity has given me, and likely many other people, a headache. Whether considering this as canon is totally valid, whether it's not, whether this is primary/secondary/tertiary canon, what impacts any of those would have on the validity of the material within, whether loopholes are being exploited or if reasonable details in the rules are being examined, and so much more is being discussed. Instead of making an argument about whether or not I think this fits the canonicity standards, I'll try to argue about whether or not this should be considered canon within reason. Whether this is a bad approach, I'll leave to you all to decide; you could say I'm just trying to take a "spirit of the law" rather than "word of the law" approach to it.

As it stands, this LN was written by one of the original writers of the original story, with full rights from Atlus, the creators and publishers of the original story. Legally speaking, it is considered a property of Atlus, the creators and publishers of the original story. It was written for the purpose of being supplementary material to the original work, as with many others in this verse, and neither contradicts the story in any way nor deviates from the plot. The information provided in the LN that's being contested is a small but meaningful addition to a concept that already exists in the main series. This addition is an elaboration on the information already provided on this concept. The reason for this addition was seemingly to allow for further information that was, for a variety of potential reasons (such as pacing within the medium), not expressed in the original work to be expressed to the audience.

Simply put, the argument for this being canon and worth using as a reliable source could be stronger. There's definitely less controversial sources within the verse that could be used for information, and I think most people would prefer Atlus held a giant presentation to say "yeah that's all correct"; just to make all our jobs easier. But with all this in mind, I sincerely think it's rather nitpicky to argue that this information shouldn't be considered.

While asking the question "Should this be considered canon?" makes the answer unclear, I think the answer is much more clear when we ask the inverse question of "Why shouldn't this be considered canon?". This information wasn't put in thoughtlessly. If this information, written by one of the original writers, for a work backed and owned by the company who owned the original work, for supplementary purposes and to provide clarity to something already elaborated on in the original series, isn't canon, then why would it exist in the first place?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation DarkGrath. It seems to make sense to me.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Does this mean a conclusion has been reached and the thread can be closed?

 

[Tarang123]

I think we should wait and hear Agnaa's opinion

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I mean, it has been a couple of days.

 

[Tarang123]

Has anybody messaged his wall?

 

[Agnaa]

I haven't responded since I didn't have much to say to DarkGrath's post.

It's mostly reiterating stuff in the thread, saying it's confusing. Concluding with "It's unclear whether it should be considered canon, but I don't know why it shouldn't be considered canon." Which seems like a meaningless reframing; things shouldn't be considered canon if there's no reason to consider them canon. It follows with some claims that are unfounded/misleading, then asks why it was written. I've already answered that before, saying it exists for the original author to be able to write it on her own in a medium that she prefers.

Since I made the thread I've been trying to ask staff members to comment, and they've ended up not responding or getting busy with IRL stuff. I'd like to get their input but at this point idk if that's gonna happen.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

This’ll be my last comment.

Honestly, I’ve seen no definitive nor speculative evidence Atlus disagrees with additions Yu Godai added, and it seems the only fulcrum to opposition is “how do you know they like the modification”, and arguments from possibilities.

To me, and I’m sure most others, if they were not satisfied with their product, they would notify her of this, or deny it entirely. What we do know is - this hasn’t happened. Like mentioned earlier, by admission, she can’t infringe on rights she already has, and considering she hasn’t & distributed her derivative work, using Atlus proper work and ideas she co-created, that’s clear enough for me, and as shown, the majority on the thread.

 

[Agnaa]

To me, and I’m sure most others, if they were not satisfied with their product, they would notify her of this, or deny it entirely.

We have already established that this wouldn't be possible. Yu Godai got the rights to do this years upon years before writing the LN. I am very confident they had no legal recourse to deny it after that.

It is mind-boggling to me how y'all can keep pushing these two irreconcilable ideas.

If the rights weren't handled in that way, and Yu Godai didn't get all the rights to do this 7 years ahead of time I would agree, but that is not the situation we have.

 

[Lonkitt]

I am very confident they had no legal recourse to deny it after that.

I don't think this is enough proof on your part

 

[Dr._whiteee]

To me, and I’m sure most others, if they were not satisfied with their product, they would notify her of this, or deny it entirely.

We have already established that this wouldn't be possible. Yu Godai got the rights to do this years upon years before writing the LN. I am very confident they had no legal recourse to deny it after that.

It is mind-boggling to me how y'all can keep pushing these two irreconcilable ideas.

If the rights weren't handled in that way, and Yu Godai didn't get all the rights to do this 7 years ahead of time I would agree, but that is not the situation we have.

Irrelevant. You clearly don’t understand the contract. You are assuming supervision and stipulations weren’t apart of it when we already know this to be the case. Making the novel a decade later means absolutely nothing. She still was beholden to the allowances of the legal document.

At this point you really have no leg to stand on regarding the canonicity, and it’s clear you made no effort to look into the context of the verse and this LN. So, to hurry this along we’d appreciate if you reached out to your people to read the thread because an overwhelming majority disagree with the thread premise.