Megami Tensei LN Canonicity

[Agnaa]

Irrelevant. You clearly don’t understand the contract. You are assuming supervision and stipulations weren’t apart of it when we already know this to be the case. Making the novel a decade later means absolutely nothing. She still was beholden to the allowances of the legal document.

Wait, how do you know supervision and stipulations were a part of it? I've repeatedly asked for anything indicating that and never had it provided. You yourself have even responded to me asking for anything indicating that, and provided nothing of substance (just that they supervised a manga adaptation of persona 1).

So, to hurry this along we’d appreciate if you reached out to your people to read the thread.

Already did that a few hours ago.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Irrelevant. You clearly don’t understand the contract. You are assuming supervision and stipulations weren’t apart of it when we already know this to be the case. Making the novel a decade later means absolutely nothing. She still was beholden to the allowances of the legal document.

Wait, how do you know supervision and stipulations were a part of it? I've repeatedly asked for anything indicating that and never had it provided.

So, to hurry this along we’d appreciate if you reached out to your people to read the thread.

Already did that a few hours ago.

Yu’s original draft included aspects that were to be in the novel. She worked with the team to draft the novel and fame at the same time. Atlus allowed her to expand on the aspects of the game.

The fact that had a contract fir her work indicates they were okay with Yu making the novels based on what she had at the time. She obviously disn’t breach the contract and there is no time limit on a contract.

 

[Agnaa]

Your initial claim was that there were supervision and stipulations as part of the contract. You explicitly claimed that you knew that.

Now your claim is "Well she worked on some things for the game which eventually worked their way into the novel." and "Atlus gave her any contract in the first place."

Can you see how vastly different those claims are?

The first is claiming that active monitoring and quality control was stipulated in the contract for all future work.

The second is pointing out that she was actively monitored and helped when working on the game, and that Atlus let her use their copyrighted materials without commenting on any supervision or restrictions when working on them.

The fact that had a contract fir her work indicates they were okay with Yu making the novels based on what she had at the time.

In the broad sense, sure, but you don't know the specifics of what someone's going to end up writing 7 years down the line, and if you have no quality control for that, things you don't want can get through.

She obviously disn’t breach the contract and there is no time limit on a contract.

Obviously. I never contested this.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Your initial claim was that there were supervision and stipulations as part of the contract. You explicitly claimed that you knew that.

Now your claim is "Well she worked on some things for the game which eventually worked their way into the novel." and "Atlus gave her any contract in the first place."

Can you see how vastly different those claims are?

The first is claiming that active monitoring and quality control was stipulated in the contract for all future work.

The second is pointing out that she was actively monitored and helped when working on the game, and that Atlus let her use their copyrighted materials without commenting on any supervision or restrictions when working on them.

The fact that had a contract fir her work indicates they were okay with Yu making the novels based on what she had at the time.

In the broad sense, sure, but you don't know the specifics of what someone's going to end up writing 7 years down the line, and if you have no quality control for that, things you don't want can get through.

She obviously disn’t breach the contract and there is no time limit on a contract.

Obviously. I never contested this.

Incorrect. I just told you that she was working in material for the game and novel simultaneously. Which is why the contract stuff was already in her contract.

The contract clearly outlined what she would be able to do and stemmed from her interaction with Atlus when crafting both entities. That’s more than enough quality control, especially since, once again, she was the entity from atlus that made and is credited with the original plot. Legitimately bo o e from atlus would be a higher authority than her when discussing matters relating to the plot and keeping the worldview of the work consistent.

But yeah this wasn’t meant as a reignition of an argument as we just won’t see eye to eye clearly. Please let me know when your contacts post.

 

[Agnaa]

Incorrect. I just told you that she was working in material for the game and novel simultaneously. Which is why the contract stuff was already in her contract.

Here is a screenshot of the part in your post where you claimed supervision and stipulations were written into the contract.

The contract clearly outlined what she would be able to do and stemmed from her interaction with Atlus when crafting both entities.

Could you elaborate on this more? Specifically, what did the contract outline that she was able to do, and how do you know this? I've tried looking into this and haven't found much more than Yu saying there was a contract that let her write a novel.

But yeah this wasn’t meant as a reignition of an argument as we just won’t see eye to eye clearly.

Even if we don't end up seeing eye to eye on what to do with the factual information, we can still see eye to eye on what the demonstrable facts of the case are. Such as if we "know that supervision and stipulations are part of Yu's contract with Atlus".

I want to get this hammered out because it's a really important claim. If it's true, then I will agree with it being canon.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Incorrect. I just told you that she was working in material for the game and novel simultaneously. Which is why the contract stuff was already in her contract.

Here is a screenshot of the part in your post where you claimed supervision and stipulations were written into the contract.

The contract clearly outlined what she would be able to do and stemmed from her interaction with Atlus when crafting both entities.

Could you elaborate on this more? Specifically, what did the contract outline that she was able to do, and how do you know this? I've tried looking into this and haven't found much more than Yu saying there was a contract that let her wrote a novel.

But yeah this wasn’t meant as a reignition of an argument as we just won’t see eye to eye clearly.

Even if we don't end up seeing eye to eye on what to do with the factual information, we can still see eye to eye on what the demonstrable facts of the case are. Such as if we "know that supervision and stipulations are part of Yu's contract with Atlus".

I want to get this hammered out because it's a really important claim. If it's true, then I will agree with it being canon.

As I’ve discussed the novel elements and game elements were written simultaneously with Atlus direct supervision. It was at this point the team realized that Yu was having trouble condensing the plot into a palatable game experience due to SmT involving player choice, silent protags, combat elements, etc. That’s when atlus employee helped her do so and they worked together transfiguring her plot into something suitable for the game up to the first boss. Even after Yu left, the team still used her plot, editing it in order to make it ok for the game. Which is why Yu’s plot credits are in both games despite her only working through a quarter of the first game.

Yu’s novels liberties were explicitly stated by her to be restricted to using her original drafts that were free from video game restrictions, allowing her to expand passed what she was able to do with the game.

Finally, as many have pointed out, the existence of a contract and Atlus even writing those rights into her contract, clearly show express consent to expand upon the canon directly and allowed for bento to market the books as taking place in SMT’s world.

All of this blatantly evidences the novel being canon, in a say most other projects in MT don’t get, with yu being the credit storyboarder and express legal rights and payment to write the novels expanding on the game.

 

[Agnaa]

As I’ve discussed the novel elements and game elements were written simultaneously with Atlus direct supervision. It was at this point the team realized that Yu was having trouble condensing the plot into a palatable game experience due to SmT involving player choice, silent protags, combat elements, etc. That’s when atlus employee helped her do so and they worked together transfiguring her plot into something suitable for the game up to the first boss. Even after Yu left, the team still used her plot, editing it in order to make it ok for the game. Which is why Yu’s plot credits are in both games despite her only working through a quarter of the first game.

So she wrote things she later went on to use in the novel while working on the game. This is completely irrelevant to what's in the contract. Sounds like you meant to say "I was lying about supervision and stipulations being written into the contract".

Yu’s novels liberties were explicitly stated by her to be restricted to using her original drafts that were free from video game restrictions, allowing her to expand passed what she was able to do with the game.

This is worded in a very confusing way. She was restricted to using her original drafts? It's not like the raw original drafts were published, and as y'all pointed out above, she was allowed to use characters added to the game after she left. If this is just saying that her eventual SMT novel had to be based on the story in the original drafts, I guess that's one stipulation written into the contract. So my bad, it's just "I was lying about supervision being written into the contract".

Finally, as many have pointed out, the existence of a contract and Atlus even writing those rights into her contract, clearly show express consent to expand upon the canon directly and allowed for bento to market the books as taking place in SMT’s world.

An irrelevant point no-one was talking about; Atlus giving Yu consent. aka "I was lying about supervision being written into the contract".

All of this blatantly evidences the novel being canon, in a say most other projects in MT don’t get, with yu being the credit storyboarder and express legal rights and payment to write the novels expanding on the game.

Still no evidence. aka "I was lying about supervision being written into the contract".

Glad we could clear up that factual dispute.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I mean you can dig your head in the sand and ignore evidence all you want but you’ve been proven ignorant on several aspects, and don’t really have any substantial evidence to suggest it’s not canon.

So, focus on getting your contacts in the thread. It’s pretty clear what the consensus is here currently.

 

[Tarang123]

I mean you can dig your head in the sand and ignore evidence all you want but you’ve been proven ignorant on several aspects, and don’t really have any substantial evidence to suggest it’s not canon.

I mean, I don't think that's something you can really say when the entire point of the thread is to ask fur further evidence of canonicity. He's even saying that he'll accept it being canon if said evidence can be shown. You not showing it only really helps his point.

As I’ve discussed the novel elements and game elements were written simultaneously with Atlus direct supervision. It was at this point the team realized that Yu was having trouble condensing the plot into a palatable game experience due to SmT involving player choice, silent protags, combat elements, etc. That’s when atlus employee helped her do so and they worked together transfiguring her plot into something suitable for the game up to the first boss. Even after Yu left, the team still used her plot, editing it in order to make it ok for the game. Which is why Yu’s plot credits are in both games despite her only working through a quarter of the first game.

Do you have some sort of evidence? I mean, you're acting as if you were actually there when it happened, so I'll assume that some sort of explanation was given elsewhere. Even then, as Agnaa said, it doesn't really help the main point all that well.


Anyway, I think Agnaa has brought in some interesting points and I think the opposition, while they have more agreements, need to bring in the evidence for some of the claims made. So, I'll switch my vote to agree for now

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I mean, I don't think that's something you can really say when the entire point of the thread is to ask fur further evidence of canonicity. He's even saying that he'll accept it being canon if said evidence can be shown. You not showing it only really helps his point.

No it’s not. The point of the thread is claiming it’s not canon by the “standards” agnaa has discussed. Yes, read the thread, all of the information has been provided, agnaa is simply asserting things he has no knowledge on and ignoring the known facts.

and mind you, this has already been accepted. So precedence is inherently in our favor and sufficient evidence needs to be presented to change the established ruling.

Do you have some sort of evidence? I mean, you're acting as if you were actually there when it happened, so I'll assume that some sort of explanation was given elsewhere. Even then, as Agnaa said, it doesn't really help the main point all that well.

Uhm, Yu Goddai discussing the terms of her contract in her afterword, the trademark of atlus being published in the novel, and Bento books marketing the product as being apart of the smt video games world, a legal contract allowing yu to expand upon the novel.so yeah.

Anyway, I think Agnaa has brought in some interesting points and I think the opposition, while they have more agreements, need to bring in the evidence for some of the claims made. So, I'll switch my vote to agree for now

Cool beans, seems weird you’re voting without actually being explicit about why you agree, made weirder by you clearly being ignorant of the presented counter evidence, but by all means do you. We’ll mark you down for the second vocal agree for the thread.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Let’s reduce the hostilities, please. It doesn’t look good for either side.

I largely agree with White, but in a more docile manner. I genuinely do not know what more evidence one could possibly want. Same characters, same cosmology, same writer, same worldview, contacted in to allow a derivative based on said primary work. Like I said, neither side is going to sway the other, so, can we just wait for moderation?

 

[Tarang123]

No it’s not. The point of the thread is claiming it’s not canon by the “standards” agnaa has discussed. Yes, read the thread, all of the information has been provided, agnaa is simply asserting things he has no knowledge on and ignoring the known facts.

and mind you, this has already been accepted. So precedence is inherently in our favor and sufficient evidence needs to be presented to change the established ruling.

...so we're going to ignore the blatant fact that he's literally saying that if you can provide evidence for that one thing that he asked for, he'll accept it being canon? Sure, whatever you say.

Uhm, Yu Goddai discussing the terms of her contract in her afterword, the trademark of atlus being published in the novel, and Bento books marketing the product as being apart of the smt video games world, a legal contract allowing yu to expand upon the novel.so yeah.

Okay, can you show where she discussed the terms of her contract? Or is it already in the thread?

Cool beans, seems weird you’re voting without actually being explicit about why you agree, made weirder by you clearly being ignorant of the presented counter evidence, but by all means do you. We’ll mark you down for the first vocal agree for the thread.

I haven't said enough for you to call me ignorant lmao. At this point, it just seems like you're salty that someone disagrees with your stance lol. Just chill a bit. If you're so confident that you're correct, then just show the scans and be done with it. It's honestly as simple as that

 

[Tarang123]

Like I said, neither side is going to sway the other, so, can we just wait for moderation?

While I agree with more moderation, I'm perfectly willing to agree with the canonicity if the evidence of what Agnaa was asking for is shown. Then yes, I will agree with it being canon

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

While I agree with more moderation, I'm perfectly willing to agree with the canonicity if the evidence of what Agnaa was asking for is shown. Then yes, I will agree with it being canon

We already know they were supervising it because if they weren’t they wouldn’t give over the rights to use characters she didn’t make.

Like, all we’re doing is “how do you know Atlus actually disliked her modifications” vs all of mountains of evidence to suggest they had no problem with it. The whole debate is an argument from possibilities in which I don’t ever recall anything definitive from opposition to prove they didn’t.

Yu Godai hasn’t been sued to oblivion for using Gale, an Atlus property created character. I want this to be my last comment, I only responded again because I don’t want any hostility on the thread.

 

[Agnaa]

agnaa is simply asserting things he has no knowledge on and ignoring the known facts.

When has that happened? I remember there being a time earlier in the thread where I misunderstood something and made a claim with that misunderstanding, which I corrected and edited when it was clarified. I also don't know what facts I'm ignoring, having different standards of evidence does not mean I'm ignoring the evidence.

Uhm, Yu Goddai discussing the terms of her contract in her afterword, the trademark of atlus being published in the novel, and Bento books marketing the product as being apart of the smt video games world, a legal contract allowing yu to expand upon the novel.so yeah.

1. Like I said, I tried finding that, but I couldn't find much information about the details of the contract beyond that it let her write the book.
2. I don't view the inclusion of the trademark as relevant. That just means that she has the rights to use that trademark, which I thought was already established by the contract allowing her to use their characters.
3. Bento Books' claim is of what setting the novels take place in, but that's only a one-way statement of canonicity. And even if the statement was two-way, as they're a separate company I don't consider them an authority on what Atlus considers canon, regardless of whether printing a statement like that would get them into legal trouble or not.

We’ll mark you down for the second vocal agree for the thread.

????

Hykuu agreed, AKM agreed, and Zamir agreed.

EDIT: I just noticed a private message I got from AKM saying he decided not to respond because he agreed with DarkGrath's post. I'm taking that as meaning that he disagrees with the thread now, making this part inaccurate.

I largely agree with White, but in a more docile manner. I genuinely do not know what more evidence one could possibly want. Same characters, same cosmology, same writer, same worldview, contacted in to allow a derivative based on said primary work.

I gave six criteria I'd hold, any one of which being met would make me consider it canon. Those criteria are really easy to meet for the vast majority of franchises. Please don't say you genuinely don't know when I've clearly laid them out.

We already know they were supervising it because if they weren’t they wouldn’t give over the rights to use characters she didn’t make.

That doesn't logically follow.

Like, all we’re doing is “how do you know Atlus actually disliked her modifications” vs all of mountains of evidence to suggest they had no problem with it.

Or we can frame it as "How do you know Atlus actually supported her modifications?" vs the complete dearth of endorsements, running contrary to how common endorsements are for adaptation-esque works like these. You often see original creators appearing in interviews/additional material about it, you see promotions of it on social media or with the main franchise's other works. I haven't been shown a whisper from Atlus themselves or any current-as-of-releaase employee about it, which makes me think that sorta thing doesn't exist, which raises a red flag to me.

EDIT: Matching with my above edit, at this point I think the tides are sufficiently against me that I won't be able to get this to pass. Whichever Disco Mod/etc. sees this, feel free to close it.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Alrighty, then. Shows over, good game. See you all when we see you.

Buy SMT V, by the way.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for trying to keep our statistics accurate Agnaa. I am sorry that more staff members were not able to comment here.