Megami Tensei LN Canonicity

[Agnaa]

Recently this thread got accepted, part of it involved upgrading certain characters to 1-A based off of an LN statement. But I don't think the reasons for considering that LN canon are valid.

The story goes that, Yu Godai was hired to be the original story creator for a spinoff series of Megami Tensei games. Partway through working on it, she left due to health reasons, but retained some level of rights to her work, and published her own LN with her ideas, featuring a largely similar setting and characters to the game. Meanwhile, the video game company Atlus hired other people to work on the game's story in Godai's place.

From reading the thread and talking to people who endorse the LN as canon, their arguments for scaling the games to it seem to be:

1. She has the rights to it and is the original author of that spinoff's fictional setting, and by this paragraph on our Canon page, "The generally agreed-upon definition is that the work by the original author and creator of the fictional setting is canonical, unless the author or the copyright holder declares otherwise. Few other exceptions are also possible and should be noted on the verse page." that makes her works canon.
2. The novel's western publisher (which is completely unaffiliated with the video game company, while in Japan it was self-published) claimed in a blurb that the novel takes place in the game's world.
3. No-one ever explicitly said it was non-canon, and while there are many differences, there are also many similarities, and it's a multiverse so maybe even the differences aren't contradictions.

I don't think those reasons are valid. The novel's western publisher can only authoritatively tell us what lies within the novel's canon, not what lies within the game's canon. The points of no-one calling it non-canon and having a multiverse to excuse contradictions are not an arguments for canonicity, only ways of refuting those arguments for it being non-canon.

But more importantly, the overarching series of games existed long before Yu Godai's involvement and long after, with a far wider team of people working on it than just herself. For large-scale projects with many authors I don't think it's right to consider one person to be the original author for determining canonicity. If there is one entity to look to, it'd be the game studio themselves. This is made particularly worse than other similar scenarios by Yu Godai not even being the original story creator for the entire creation of the 1 game she worked on.

In discussing this, some people have asked if it would apply to some other similar verses, such as TES. As far as I'm aware, it wouldn't, as TES' additional material is endorsed by the company. Yu Godai's novels were published independently and weren't promoted by Atlus.

I'm not sure what exact changes would be needed from considering those novels non-canon, so I would appreciate some help in that regard.

 

[Urshani]

and here it comes

 

[Ultima_Reality]

But more importantly, the series of games existed long before Yu Godai's involvement and long after, with a far wider team of people than just herself. For large-scale projects with many authors I don't think it's right to consider one person to be the original author for determining canonicity. If there is one entity to look to, it'd be the game studio themselves.

Bit of nitpicking on my part, I admit, but I should point out that this is not really correct. Digital Devil Saga's idea itself was originally pitched and developed by Yu Godai, who formed the skeleton for it, which other writer then built off from after she left the project, which is why many story elements, particularly at the start and end, are the same across both continuities. DDS is its own branch of the Megami Tensei franchise that was initiated by her on the company's request.

But, regardless of that, after a bit of research I found this to be a valid point. Legally speaking, as per Article 15-1 of Japan's copyright law system, when a work is developed by an employee of a corporation, the authorship of the product is to be attributed to the corporation at large, which in this case, of course, would be Atlus, who therefore holds all copyright over it:

Copyright Law of Japan | Copyright Law of Japan | Copyright Research and Information Center CRIC

For a work (except a work of computer programming) that an em-ployee of a corporation or other employers (hereinafter in this Article such a corpora-tion or other employers are referred to as a "corporation, etc.") makes in the course of duty at the initiative of the corporation, etc., and that the corporation, etc. makes public as a work of its own authorship, the author is the corporation, etc., so long as it is not stipulated otherwise in a contract, in employment rules, or elsewhere at the time the work is made.

More than that, though, by Article 28, this in turn includes the rights for derivative works and their formulation, which the books being discussed definitionally fall under. So when it comes to the exploitation of that work, they hold the exact same rights as Yu Godai herself does over the story, which includes non-transferable moral rights (What that entails is outlined in the link above)

(Rights of the Original Author in Connection with the Exploitation of a Derivative Work)
　Article 28　The author of the original work underlying a derivative work holds exclusive rights in the same categories as the rights prescribed in this Subsection that the author of the derivative work holds in connection with the exploitation of that derivative work

So, regardless of external factors, as a derivative work, Quantum Devil Saga is indeed as much a property of the company as it is Yu Godai's, and so it is under their authority despite the liberties she was given. This is important because the novels in question are not composed solely of the writer's ideas for the game, but also of characters, elements, scenes and setpieces that do appear in the games as well. The main cast, for one, is the same (Same names, appearances, personalities, dynamics, occupations in the setting, and etc), and not only that, but the novels also include a character that is exclusive to the games, and was not in the original draft for the story, meaning that Yu Godai was allowed to make use of Atlus' intellectual properties as well:

Gale (Avatar Tuner)

Gale is a member of the Embryon tribe in the Digital Devil Saga duology. Digital Devil Saga: Avatar Tuner: Playable Character Digital Devil Saga: Avatar Tuner 2: Playable Character Quantum Devil Saga: Avatar Tuner He heavily resembles the person he was based upon, though with light green hair...

megamitensei.fandom.com

“Heat. You are Heat, right?”
“Of course I am.” Heat scowled. “You sure you’re you, Serph? Come on, Argilla and Gale are over there.”
Argilla. Gale.
Serph’s vision went blurry for a moment, and he staggered.
“Argilla” was the call sign of Embryon’s sniper, just as “Gale” was the name of the bishop, the taciturn analyst who devised their strategies.
And Heat was their best combatant, the Embryon’s number two, on par with Serph himself. He had fought alongside Serph since the beginning, earning his spot as one of the key members of the tribe

And indeed even the beginning of the story is basically the same across both continuities. Take this scene, for instance:



And its equivalent in the novel:

The cluster of whirling lights emitted a high-pitched sound, and then they burst apart, scattering in every direction.

A phantasmal form floated in front of him. Its shape was humanoid; looking at it felt somehow like looking into a mirror, except the face gazing back at him wasn’t human. Rather, it looked to be something carved of crystal, with millions of glittering, translucent facets. Its hair stood on end, semi-liquid, waving steadily back and forth, creating a rainbow as it moved. Energy flowed from within it in surging waves, originating from its translucent elbows and ankles, coiling up over its robust, hairless body.

Serph’s scope was hit with another burst of static as it tried to register the mysterious form, and then it displayed a single line of text.

Om Mani Padme Hum Om, jewel in the lotus, hum.

The text then seemed to melt and crumble away, coalescing back into a single word.

Varuna

God of water and sky.

The apparition approached and silently slipped into Serph’s body and vanished.

So, given all of that, I'd like also to quote to direct myself to a part of our page on canon:

Canon

Canon is a term used to designate works that are generally accepted as the genuine work that apply to the fictional verse. With few possible exceptions only canon material is featured in the character pages, with non-canon material to be ignored. The generally agreed-upon definition is that the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

In addition a tertiary canon will be allowed. The tertiary canon consists of official adaptations not overseen by the author, which do not modify or contradict source material. When other source materials give different versions of the same feat, and by that contradict the tertiary canon in the depiction of the feat, the others take precedence. And here as well, if the feat is correctly depicted over multiple canons any of these can be used to judge the feat. Should by judging the feat through primary or secondary canon a different result be reached than for tertiary canon the result of primary or secondary canon will have priority.

Entirely new feats of tertiary canon, like for example new abilities, should be disregarded. Details added to existing fight scenes, such as damage caused to the surroundings, can be accepted for text based media like books.

Any changes based on tertiary canon will only be accepted if they are not contradicted by any instances of another canon, with regards to either the character power-scale, or logical inconsistencies (and plot holes).

So, given all of the above, I'd argue that the 1-A statement from the novel would indeed qualify as "an added detail," and as something which in no way contradicts the primary material. For one, here is a statement by the novel's official translator, in which he clarifies that Quantum Devil Saga is basically a version of the story redone without any of the inherent limitations required for a video game narrative to be playable:

Were you familiar with the original Digital Devil Story books by Aya Nishitani that spawned the Megami Tensei video game series?

I haven’t read Nishitani’s work, but I was aware of it, along with some of the other strange offshoots of the Megami Tensei franchise. Quantum Devil Saga is an interesting case, actually, because of its unusual and hard-to-explain origins. Essentially, the books are Yu Godai’s take on her own story, originally used as the basis for the two Digital Devil Saga games, redone without any of the unique restrictions that a story needs to be subjected to in order to make it a playable video game narrative. She has mentioned, however, that being a fan of the Megami Tensei franchise was part of what drew her to accept the offer to work on Digital Devil Saga in the first place, so I guess in a sense it all comes full circle.

So, for concepts that are shared between novel and game, descriptions that are present in the former are just more in-depth elaborations on the latter, which aligns with the given example of a text-based medium giving more in-depth descriptions of the effect a fight has in the landscape. And as for how they don't contradict the series proper in any way, I'd like to point out that information (The basis of the 1-A statement) being unbound by the concept of dimensions/coordinates is something that has already been brought up somewhere else in the franchise:



Ontop of that, the realm that the statement refers to is defined in the novel as being the place in which enlightened people ascend by attaining Nirvana so they can become Buddhas, and, further, it's described as a world that exists entirely in the unconscious level, and is even compared to "the tossings and turnings of a person in sleep."



Meanwhile, Persona 2 actually has the main characters entering the world of the unconscious (Also called "The Dreamlands," of note), and shortly after getting in there they are greeted by Buddha himself:

https://p2px-scenario.tumblr.com/post/126632037598/part-3-gone-without-a-trace-section-c

So, yeah, the statements and nature of the 1-A realm don't contradict the material of the games in any way. In fact, they complement each other, and explicitly describe the same thing. If Quantum Devil Saga is deemed liable as tertiary canon (Which I believe it should), then the requirements needed for a change to be approved are very much fulfilled already.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

As someone who helped construct the initial drafts, I agree with Ultima.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Ultima makes sense here

 

[Urshani]

i agree with Ultima.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

As a verse consultant, I agree with Ultima.

 

[Lonkitt]

Agreeing with Ultima here and I see absolutely no reason not to

 

[Naito-desu]

Going to wait for Agnaa's response

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

How did you guys read Ultima's comment in less than 3 minutes

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

How did you guys read Ultima's comment in less than 3 minutes

It doesn’t take long if you helped the guy prep the response.

 

[Bobsican]

Hmm... everything looks nice and all over Ultima's points at first, but the part over at the end of it...

Hah, just kidding, I agree with Ultima.

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

Already was privy to reading Ultima’s response beforehand, and as someone who helped with the verse, I obviously agree with his stance.

 

[Lonkitt]

How did you guys read Ultima's comment in less than 3 minutes

I didn't. I read it in 7 minutes.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

How did you guys read Ultima's comment in less than 3 minutes

precognition.

 

[Comicgyal]

I’m also in agreement with Ultima, it makes more than enough sense to me.

 

[Dragoonseraphim]

Agree with Ultima. Everything there makes sense to me.

 

[Agnaa]

Since most of that seems irrelevant to the question at hand, I'll respond to the pertinent part.

So, given all of the above, I'd argue that the 1-A statement from the novel would indeed qualify as "an added detail," and as something which in no way contradicts the primary material. For one, here is a statement by the novel's official translator, in which he clarifies that Quantum Devil Saga is basically a version of the story redone without any of the inherent limitations required for a video game narrative to be playable

I completely disagree. Usually those "added details" are in reference to, say, a more visual medium giving us a visual for something just described as an "explosion" in a novel, letting us better estimate its size. Or a cinematic medium giving us a timeframe for what was earlier just a static image. It's taking an existing scene in the work, reproducing it, but adding more details as the medium is liable to do.

The 1-A statement in question, as far as I can tell, isn't taking a bit of dialogue that occurred in the game and adding a few more words to it that make it 1-A. It is describing a cosmological construct which is then effected in the games. That's not what that section of the canon page is designed for.

If Character A harms Character B in a video game, with Character B's best feats being building-busting, but the novel adds an entirely new question where Character B says he can destroy mountains with a flick of a finger, that should not let you scale Character A and B from the games to mountain-level. I believe the situation here is analogous.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I understand where you are coming form the first part, but you lost me at the comparison to TES.

The additional material of TES is technically not "canon" as they include things that are not part of any of the officially released copyrighted material by Bethseda etc. However they are counted on the wiki because it is "endorsed by the company". The LN is an officially licensed material, which in my opinion is way more legitimate than "endorsed by the company".

But I would also mention that wikipedia page for the novel has a line that says the novel is not a part of the SM continuity. However the source they linked is a podcast, but I have no idea if this podcast is verifiable, or when in the podcast they present this information, and whether this information comes from an official source.

 

[Agnaa]

I understand where you are coming form the first part, but you lost me at the comparison to TES.

The additional material of TES is technically not "canon" as they include things that are not part of any of the officially released copyrighted material by Bethseda etc. However they are counted on the wiki because it is "endorsed by the company". The LN is an officially licensed material, which in my opinion is way more legitimate than "endorsed by the company".

But I would also mention that wikipedia page for the novel has a line that says the novel is not a part of the SM continuity. However the source they linked is a podcast, but I have no idea if this podcast is verifiable, or when in the podcast they present this information, and whether this information comes from an official source.

This is the first time I'm hearing about the LN being officially licensed, even after asking Ultima for any official endorsement of it. What's your source on that?

I didn't bring up the Wikipedia page as evidence, I'd appreciate leaving other people's arguments out of it and just sticking to mine.

 

[Tarang123]

I've already seen some of these arguments on discord, but I'd prefer to stay neutral on this one. Might change my mind as the thread continues

 

[AnAverageUsername]

This is the first time I'm hearing about the LN being officially licensed, even after asking Ultima for any official endorsement of it. What's your source on that?

I didn't bring up the Wikipedia page as evidence, I'd appreciate leaving other people's arguments out of it and just sticking to mine.

Not who you're responding to, but

Avatar Tuner

bentobooks.com

 

[Agnaa]

Not who you're responding to, but

Avatar Tuner

bentobooks.com

I don't know how that indicates official licensing. The Western publisher claiming in a blurb that it takes place in the world of the games is something I already mentioned and addressed in the OP.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I don't know how that indicates official licensing. The Western publisher claiming in a blurb that it takes place in the world of the games is something I already mentioned and addressed in the OP.

I don't know, all I know is that it's in the hands of that publishing company.

 

[Urshani]

If Character A harms Character B in a video game, with Character B's best feats being building-busting, but the novel adds an entirely new question where Character B says he can destroy mountains with a flick of a finger, that should not let you scale Character A and B from the games to mountain-level. I believe the situation here is analogous.

this is not that scenario

the novel extrapolated on something already existing within MT's cosmology, and specified it was 1-A.

even if you have to make another key for QDS characters, due to the nature of demons like Brahman or Gabriel they would scale

 

[ShivaShakti]

I agree with Ultima

 

[Agnaa]

this is not that scenario

the novel extrapolated on something already existing within MT's cosmology, and specified it was 1-A.

even if you have to make another key for QDS characters, due to the nature of demons like Brahman or Gabriel they would scale

And in my scenario, the novel extrapolated on a character already existing within the series, and specified it was Low 7-B.

That part of the Canon page isn't meant to let you take every statement about the cosmology in non-canon materials (not just longer versions of statements given in canon materials) and apply it to the canon series' cosmology. You're not allowed to use new scenes in the tertiary canon material.

At best this is trying to exploit a loophole that should be promptly closed, at worst it's trying to argue that such a loophole exists when it doesn't.

 

[Urshani]

And in my scenario, the novel extrapolated on a character already existing within the series, and specified it was Low 7-B.

even if that's the case, if it's canon, then it applies just like the situation with DMC

That part of the Canon page isn't meant to let you take every statement about the cosmology in non-canon materials (not just longer versions of statements given in canon materials) and apply it to the canon series' cosmology. You're not allowed to use new scenes in the tertiary canon material.

read above statement

 

[Agnaa]

Also, I'd point out that this part of the Canon page that's now being used:

• Entirely new feats of tertiary canon, like for example new abilities, should be disregarded. Details added to existing fight scenes, such as damage caused to the surroundings, can be accepted for text based media like books.
• Any changes based on tertiary canon will only be accepted if they are not contradicted by any instances of another canon, with regards to either the character power-scale, or logical inconsistencies (and plot holes).

Is explicitly saying that this sort of thing is only allowed if the primary canon is a book, and the tertiary canon is not a book. The sort of situation in this thread, where the primary canon is a visual-based media (a game) and the tertiary canon is a book, is explicitly not allowed.

even if that's the case, if it's canon, then it applies just like the situation with DMC

Ultima has argued that it's tertiary canon, not primary canon. An important distinction that I don't think is the case with DMC.

 

[Urshani]

hm.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I would highly appreciate it if it were simply left to me, Ultima, and White. We already have our arguments ready, and outside interference is more hindering then helping.

 

[Urshani]

I would highly appreciate it if it were simply left to me, Ultima, and White. We already have our arguments ready, and outside interference is more hindering then helping.

Understandable.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Since most of that seems irrelevant to the question at hand.

Not really, since you are the one who brought up that the authorship of the word should be attributed to Atlus and not Yu Godai, and I then brought up the ramifications of that in legal terms. So, I reiterate: Quantum Devil Saga is not really an unrelated work that's only vaguely similar to Digital Devil Saga, it is a derivative work made under a contract, with the same setting and characters, as well as material exclusive to Atlus. Given that, it should fit the criteria of "Official adaptations not overseen by the author" that we require for tertiary canon.

If Character A harms Character B in a video game, with Character B's best feats being building-busting, but the novel adds an entirely new question where Character B says he can destroy mountains with a flick of a finger, that should not let you scale Character A and B from the games to mountain-level. I believe the situation here is analogous.

Not really, no. For one, higher layers of reality that are not explicitly defined as higher-dimensional spaces are only equated to them for the sake of equalization and maintaining a solid, consistent basis with which to compare things from different verses, and otherwise their tier is arbitrary and can be whatever so long as it has the definitions to back it up, which is why we, say, allow a single higher layer to be 1-A without the need for infinite dimensions to begin with.

Your analogy here is like saying that the statements "I have a shirt" and "The shirt is red" are contradictory to each other, when that's not really true, since you didn't really define the color of the shirt to begin with in the first statement, and therefore the second one is simply an addition. In this case, the undefined attribute here would be cosmological structure's dimensionality, which was never explicitly asserted in the original work, and therefore not liable to being contradicted by higher statements.

 

[Agnaa]

Oh another thing, the tertiary canon argument is a tough claim, since that both requires it to be officially licensed, and to not modify the source material. I'm not an SMT expert, but given that Ultima said that the start and end are the same (implying that the middle is different, and as such that it's a modified retelling of the source material) that classification sounds dubious.

EDIT: After further clarification, having different events doesn't seem like a contradiction, given how the series features a multiverse with similar characters going through different events.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Since most of that seems irrelevant to the question at hand, I'll respond to the pertinent part.

It simply isn’t, though. Unfortunately, as tight-knit and interwoven MegaTen’s cosmology is, you don’t get to ignore the ramifications of the connection of the first thread, and what it means as a whole.

The idea of Nirvana is an idea expressed in the novel & game proper. The novels explicitly explain it as an omnipresent, infinite space, which is what you are introduced into after the manifestation of Brahman’s defeat, even to the point where the phrase “you are the world, the world is myself”, and “from here on, you and I will bare witness to many different realities”, a concept identical to what’s portrayed in the novels.

The former statement, depicting the world as you and you as it is the basic fundamental principle of “Brahman”, the ultimate reality. This isn’t just mindless conjecture, mind you, but detailed and illustrated when you are brought to the Kadath Mandala in Persona 2, and you’re introduced for Virochana, aspect of Vairocana, who questions the idea of :

Virochana: Aye!
Virochana: Thy reflection on the water’s surface: that is thy Brahman, the truth of the universe, which is in turn thine Atman. Thou thyself art the universe, and thine self is itself the light that illuminates the soul.
Virochana: I shall support thy search for truth and award thee the radiance of thy companion which binds her world within to the world without. Thou must not forget the truth of thy oneness with Brahman…

Should you respond incorrectly, he says:

Virochana: Then what is the Thou before me? Know that to deny thy oneness with Brahman is in other words to return thyself and the universe to nothingness.
Virochana: Thou “Maya” – thou illusory woman who attempts to shroud That Thou Art – begone!

Maya, translating to “illusion”, suggests that the “material world” is but an illusion, and a lie, and true awakening is realizing there is no “self”, as elaborated by Sakya, who resides in Nirvana (Kadath), free of restraints. The Kadath itself is even described as Macrocosm (universe), and Microcosm (man), and should Umr-at-Tawil die, the binary between self and unity will vanish, merging the latter into the former, erasing individual consciousness.

With this, it’s more than proven the idea of Nirvana being a universal concept in the franchise proper, and not just a one-off exclusive to DDS & QDS.

Moving onto legality, Yu Godai even considered self-publishing her work, but instead got officially published, by Hayakawa Publishing, further rejecting the notion it’s exclusively her work:

I was just about to give up, figuring that self-publishing was going to be my only real option for releasing it. I cannot thank my editor Mr. Shiozawa at Hayakawa JA or my contact person Ms. Takatsuka enough for the opportunity to publish this novel, and for their guidance in brushing up the manuscript. I'd also like to thank Hirotaka Maeda for the wonderful new artwork that graces these covers.

Which is further allied by the fact that the distribution of QDS in English was an act by Bento Books & Hayakawa Publishing, as proven:

Redirect Notice

With Bento Books & Hayakawa Publishing working together, the following statement, in-which it confirms the canonicity of QDS to SMT, becomes far more valid:

In the post-apocalyptic Junkyard, warring tribes fight to unify the six territories, and thus gain access to Nirvana, the promised land. This is Avatar Tuner, Vol. I, a novel set in the landscape of the Shin Megami Tensei video games. After one battle Serph, the leader of the upstart Embryon tribe, rescues a mysterious girl and discovers he and his fellow fighters have gained the ability to transform into mystical, demon warriors. But these new abilities and the enigmatic Sera threaten to upend the balance of power in the Junkyard, and within the Embryon tribe itself.

Avatar Tuner, Vol. I opens the Quantum Devil Saga, a series that takes place in the world of the Shin Megami Tensei games, which are widely popular in their native Japan and have gained a considerable following in the West. The games are part of one of the three most popular role-playing game series in Japan, along with Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest.

 

[Agnaa]

Not really, since you are the one who brought up that the authorship of the word should be attributed to Atlus and not Yu Godai, and I then brought up the ramifications of that in legal terms. So, I reiterate: Quantum Devil Saga is not really an unrelated work that's only vaguely similar to Digital Devil Saga, it is a derivative work made under a contract, with the same setting and characters, as well as material exclusive to Atlus. Given that, it should fit the criteria of "Official adaptations not overseen by the author" that we require for tertiary canon.

Maybe I should've been more clear, I saw the rest of the post as more fending off potential criticisms, rather than providing affirmative claims for why the LN should be used. i.e. trying to establish consistency and shared characters, to fend off criticism that it's inconsistent or doesn't share characters. While on its own, being consistent and sharing characters does not make something canon.

Your analogy here is like saying that the statements "I have a shirt" and "The shirt is red" are contradictory to each other, when that's not really true, since you didn't really define the color of the shirt to begin with in the first statement, and therefore the second one is simply an addition. In this case, the undefined attribute here would be cosmological structure's dimensionality, which was never explicitly asserted in the original work, and therefore not liable to being contradicted by higher statements.

My bad, but my analogy is laughably easy to tune to fit this. Instead of the character being established as building-busting in the game, their tier wasn't established. It's still invalid to use entirely new mountain-level feats from tertiary canon to scale to primary canon.

Unfortunately, as tight-knit and interwoven MegaTen’s cosmology is, you don’t get to ignore the ramifications of the connection of the first thread, and what it means as a whole.

We're talking about canonicity. I don't care if the concept is described in other games in a non-1-A way. The LNs finishing off unexplained parts of the game's cosmology says nothing about canonicty, and is thus, irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

It's not illegal, it got published by the publishing house Hayakawa Publishing.

I never said it was illegal. And as far as I can tell, Hayakawa Publishing is not Atlus, so their statements have no bearing over what Atlus considers canon.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Oh another thing, the tertiary canon argument is a tough claim, since that both requires it to be officially licensed, and to not modify the source material. I'm not an SMT expert, but given that Ultima said that the start and end are the same (implying that the middle is different, and as such that it's a modified retelling of the source material) that classification sounds dubious.

You do realize that:
A.) Any work that Yu Godai did involve Atlus intellectual property is inherently their work correct? This was written into her contract with them after being given the job based on her scouting and subsequent appraisal by Atlus. We have no reason to doubt Yu's claims as she could be sued for lying and utilizing their work if those terms weren't in her contract. Ultima already provided evidence outlining the relevant rules regarding copyright for Japan, so not really sure why you skipped over that section tbh.
B.) Megami tensei having different variations on important plot elements is literally a foundation of the game. Literally, every playthrough of every game is it's own timeline and is the reason why we are given choices to determine the ultimate end point of the game. This is so much so that it's made into game mechanics in P4, PQ, and P5 with the other world/other Joker mechanics present in the game (and in the case of the other worlds mechanic is expounded upon as an actual part of the cosmology by the VR). Shin Megami Tensei 4 also has a similar DLC that explains that the routes are all parallel universes when describing how the timeline of Apocalypse (the subsequent "remaster" of SMT 4) came into being.

Literally almost 90%+ of all Megaten works receive supplementary canon in various forms ranging from anime and manga to light novels and OVA's. It is all canon to MT and an inherent part of the cosmology which works on quantum mechanics locally, and follows the Kaballah on a grand scale. All of which is contextualized in the blog that was supposed to be read hand in hand with the upgrade.

 

[Agnaa]

Ultima already provided evidence outlining the relevant rules regarding copyright for Japan, so not really sure why you skipped over that section tbh.

Because he ended it off with "They both have the same rights for it", which to me sounds like they can both go off and do their own thing without permission. If that's wrong and it is only Atlus', then tertiary canon seems fair.

Megami tensei having different variations on important plot elements is literally a foundation of the game. Literally, every playthrough of every game is it's own timeline and is the reason why we are given choices to determine the ultimate end point of the game. This is so much so that it's made into game mechanics in P4, PQ, and P5 with the other world/other Joker mechanics present in the game (and in the case of the other worlds mechanic is expounded upon as an actual part of the cosmology by the VR). Shin Megami Tensei 4 also has a similar DLC that explains that the routes are all parallel universes when describing how the timeline of Apocalypse (the subsequent "remaster" of SMT 4) came into being.

Ahh okay I see the point you're making here now. Yeah that's a fair enough reason to not have that work against it being tertiary canon. I'll go retract that previous post of mine.

Literally almost 90%+ of all Megaten works receive supplementary canon in various forms ranging from anime and manga to light novels and OVA's.

I'm not educated enough to talk about the canonicity of other works, only enough to say that the LN stuff seems sus.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Because he ended it off with "They both have the same rights for it", which to me sounds like they can both go off and do their own thing without permission. If that's wrong and it is only Atlus', then tertiary canon seems fair.

Yes. Yu Goddai has her rights because she created the storyboard utilizing the already present IP. Therefore, in her contract, Atlus allowed her to expand upon their IP and create novelizations based on the video games as the reference for source material. This was her legal contract with ATLUS. Once again, this is par for the course for pretty much all MegaTen material.

Megami tensei having different variations on important plot elements is literally a foundation of the game. Literally, every playthrough of every game is it's own timeline and is the reason why we are given choices to determine the ultimate end point of the game. This is so much so that it's made into game mechanics in P4, PQ, and P5 with the other world/other Joker mechanics present in the game (and in the case of the other worlds mechanic is expounded upon as an actual part of the cosmology by the VR). Shin Megami Tensei 4 also has a similar DLC that explains that the routes are all parallel universes when describing how the timeline of Apocalypse (the subsequent "remaster" of SMT 4) came into being.

Ahh okay I see the point you're making here now. Yeah that's a fair enough reason to not have that work against it being tertiary canon.

Literally almost 90%+ of all Megaten works receive supplementary canon in various forms ranging from anime and manga to light novels and OVA's.

I'm not educated enough to talk about the canonicity of other works, only enough to say that the LN stuff seems sus.

I understand, Megaten is a very old franchise with an insane amount of content. But believe me, the statement was originally floated by us by a stroke of luck. We vetted the translations through several outlets which Milly can expand upon, and dug up all of the information about the novels and Yu that we could. Which luckily enough, Yu describes her time at Atlus and gives details on her working relationship with them and subsequent contractual rights to create the novels, in her afterward of the novel.

At the end of the day a legal employment contract dictating rights of IP is a pretty sufficient bar for meeting canonicity standards especially in light of Ultima's stuff about copyright law, and the fact that an employee being granted rights is still ultimately beholden to the company owning the IP, is just a nail in the coffin Imo.

 

[Agnaa]

Still, I think that lands it in the tertiary canon camp, and that the 1-A statement doesn't clear our hurdles for acceptable tertiary canon feats, by adding details to the cosmology (instead of to a fight scene), and the original media being audiovisual (not text-based). While it is fine on the non-contradiction qualifier, that's not enough on its own.