TenSura LN Major Revision - Raphael is a Regeneration Device

[Sebas-S.P-san]

i like how only anos fans are disagreeing
(im changing to neutral because of Tatsumi's argument)

Are you serious? You are not reading and understanding the arguments provided?

Well, I'll wait to see how this proceeds

 

[Robo432343]

Are you serious? You are not reading and understanding the arguments provided?

Well, I'll wait to see how this proceeds

are you fr right now bro???

this scan is right in front of you and you still agree with high godly regen

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

i like how only anos fans are disagreeing

Code be like

 

[Dog3352]

My main point for not agreeing with infinite regeneration being HGR is still the same: The LN points out that only Rimuru's body would be destroyed, something they were only denying with the argument that "melt slash/disintegrarion destroys anything in the way", but , this scan says otherwise, making it clear that the Melt Slash/disintegration skill, if the person wants, can be controlled to destroy only one specific thing that is in the way (such as the body).

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

are you fr right now bro???

this scan is right in front of you and you still agree with high godly regen

Can you give me the volume?

There may be more context as is usually the case.

 

[CelestialVortex01]

Can you give me the volume?

There may be more context as is usually the case.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

are you fr right now bro???

this scan is right in front of you and you still agree with high godly regen

I already explained the context.

As explained previously,this attack was melt strike.which only targets a small part of someone. Yet even that was enough to start destroying her spiritual body. And even the astral body wasn’t safe. NOTE THAT THIS WAS FROM SOMETHING THAT ONLY HIT ONE PART OF THE BODY

so it already hit hinata and then it hit venom after. Most of the affects already hit her.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Strange, I didn't get a notification for this.

I ask again, does a simple fact need to be beaten into your head? The existence of magicules, spirit particles, information particles, skills etc after supposed complete destruction is an indication that the core has not been destroyed and doesn't support you in anyway. Know this and know peace.

My man, are you getting what I said in your head? I said Soul energy can be used as a replacement for "regenerating the physical body or the soul[and only that] in place of magicules", did I mention information particles or core regeneration[the HG part] there? No, I didn't, so stop adding your own yap into it and calling mine contradictory.

Genuinely asking here, show when else it did reach the core. I'm asking for feats not assumptions.

Do you the concept of "reading the whole comment first before yapping"? Or are you showing ignorance even after reading the whole post and the examples I gave in it?

Raphael simply said the physical body will be instantly regenerated, didn't say anything about soul or core.

You do not need to mention something in every single part of when a name of a skill being used is mentioned as long as its backed up by other things surrounding it, for this instance, beelzebuth's destruction

Do you know what a contradiction is? x destroyed everything but somehow everything is still there?

Do you know how to read and remember the OP you read? You couldn't even understand what I meant by "context" here.
Raphael is an independent skill and has ways of escaping. You replying to specific parts without reading the rest and thus not understanding a thing is not my problem.

Give me a source on Raphael having a heartcore and this not being in reference to it becoming sentient with emotions.

I don't need to when sentience and emotions are what is a heart core and an ego. We already have physiology pages explaining that, you not getting the physiology pages into your head is not my problem.

Being a separate heart still doesn't change the fact its inside Rimuru.

Once again, the OP. I didn't say it was outside Rimuru, I said it was partially independent of him as an entity.

Source for that please and I mean a direct indicator not your usual cutting and joining of different scans. Once again, having a heartcore doesn't change the fact it is part of and inside rimuru.

Do you know the existence of a thing called "Physiology and Explanation pages"?

Two words, COMPLETE DESTRUCTION. This ain't HGR if Raphael has no feats of regenerating something from complete destruction.

Rimuru's destruction: Allow me to introduce myself.

It was repairing their bodies, recombining their souls that was trapped in the barrier, none of that is regeneration from complete destruction, don't try to shift the goal post.

What do you mean "shift the goal post"? You were the one who claimed at the start that it was resurrection, while I said it was regeneration. I didn't said Raphael did "regen from complete destruction on Rimuru's subordinates" either.

Once again, Rimuru's too only indicates regeneration of the physical body.

Because the only thing getting destroyed at that instance[when he was fighting Milim] was his physical body to begin with.

Can you send that translation?

I possess regenerative skill “Infinite Regeneration” that surpasses “Super Regeneration,” but using it too much would drain my magicule. I would still be able to revive after being shattering by her. But with repetition of this process, I’ll be the first one to exhaust my stamina.

From this, obviously, even if only the physical body is being destroyed here, he'll run out of magicules if he keeps using any skill continuously. Dude doesn't have infinite magicules.

Rimuru prior made mention of running out of magicules, "Probably" in this case is an indicator of uncertainty especially in the context in which it is used.

Because Rimuru himself is not as knowledgeable as Raphael on the working of skills or keeping track of his magicules. That is evident throughout the novel.

So why are you equalizing both water manipulation skills? Stop jumping ships and choose where you stand.

Did you get a single thing of what I said?

Show where Raphael is a separate entity,

…it obtained its Harvest Festival gift—conquering, and evolving, into an ultimate skill, the loftiest height possible in the world.

The chances of this working were thought to be so small that it wasn’t even worth considering. It almost seemed like a reward provided for the infinite effort involved with the attempt. Succeeding made it more likely that it could carry out its master’s request, but the supposedly soulless conceptual intelligence bore no happiness. It could never understand emotion.

It means while Raphael resides inside Rimuru's soul, it as its own entity is, in fact, soulless.

shekina.

Seems like a girls' name from anime, so nuh uh, I'm not one

A body with two different souls, minds, concepts, personality etc are separate but as long as both inhabit the same vessel, an attack capable of interacting with those aspects should nuke the two. "IN A CORNER OF RIMURU'S SOUL" Raphael is inside him.

Except, that's only if the different entity cannot escape before the attack hits.

Nice attempt to throw people off. I said that in reference to you as a thread starter, I lost interest in since you seem to lack the capacity to crosscheck, proofread and ensure your arguments are foolproof. You ain't no wanker when you commit this many slip ups. You bring shame to the title "wanker" so as off that moment to me, you're excommunicado

Was that enough to clear your mind off those thoughts? Felt good saying all that out aloud? Now back to the topic.

I honestly can't rn. For Pete's sake

Nuh

choose where you stand. First you claim exceptions, now under this same exception,

Exception to the working of a skill when it has enough reason to be an exception.

you claim disintegration common property is always the same.

Unless shown otherwise, which it isn't this time since it still reached the core where Beelzebuth resides, and destroyed Beelzebuth.

This mans is a walking contradiction. "Common Property" why mention the magic and spirit particles then? Why were only the magic particles destroyed and spirit particles remained when Hinata intended to finish them off?

"Common property assumed as default, unless shown otherwise".

Nah, this verse better find someone that can actually carry it cause astral is not "him".

Meh, I never said or claimed I was 'him'.

So why weren't they crushed here also,

Assuming by "crushed" you're referring to spirit particles, "Common property assumed as default, unless shown otherwise".

"crush" is not an indicator of erasure.

Except, you only focused on one bolded part and not the other.

“Let me provide you a prayer to the divine. I hope and desire for the power of the holy spirits. Listen to my appeal and overcome all in your way! Disintegration!!”

The request, delivered in Hinata’s beautiful voice, was granted. The resulting show of force was literally divine, enough to crush all physical and spiritual presences within its defined space. It was the ultimate in targeted, destructive magic, emitting flashes of white light as it poured from Hinata’s hands to the circle. It sped out at thousands of miles per hour, almost at light speed, as its holy power made cells and souls vanish without a trace. It was more than enough to make the Glutton disappear, not affecting the space around it at all.

Prelix spirit particles recombined- meaning they weren't destroyed- by a skill no less meaning it wasn't complete destruction meaning his/her info is still there meaning the core is intact.

Except, just because the spirit particles weren't erased in that specific case doesn't mean the information particles weren't.
You shoot abeam at a wall to erase an apple on another side; in some cases, the beam completely disintegrates the wall its passing through along with the apple, in other cases, the wall is destroyed but pieces and bits fly off, although the apple still gets nuked.

I'll say it again, any indication of a skill after supposed complete erasure without clarification the skill regenerated first is an anti-feat to your agenda.

"Without clarification", except, if a skill remains after it faces Disintegration and its stated that disintegrated didn't reach the core in that particular case, it means the skill is exceptional in one way or another.

Then show them cause quite frankly, you haven't sown a single one.

Literally the very case you're arguing against in this specific part [perlix's]. I didn't think someone's comprehension skills would fall so low.

Was Prelix's absolute immortality another separate sentient skill like raphael?

Not shown so far

how is the skill remaining an exception?

Exceptions are not only of a single kind, but what matters is that exceptions exist. Unlike shion's infinite regen[not rimuru's], which can 'regenerate as long as the core is not destroyed', Perlix's condition for regeneration is also only one[at least, that's the only one that's stated], that being "can regenerate as long as he's not exposed to sunlight".

Partially block? Naw, Beelzebuth gobbled that shit up, gave it that Gawk Gawk 3000 with double piston action and both consumed each other. It was never to stop it from reaching the core, it was to stop it from hitting Rimuru.

Spirit particles from disintegration are what destroy the core, but even for beelzebuth, it cannot block all spirit particles due to their completely random motion that ignores space and time. That's why it couldn't handle trinity disintegration[higher AOE version] at all:

But…wait a second. Didn’t I “sacrifice” Belzebuth when I fought Hinata justnow?

Understood. The ultimate skill Belzebuth, Lord of Gluttony, was indeed sacrificed, but a copy had been backed up, so it was not a problem to reactivate.

Huhhh? Backed up? And why was Raphael using the past tense there? You gotta tell me about this crap, man! I thought I had lost that thing forever. The professor acted like this was all settled history, but I wasn’t sure I was willing to accept that.

Report. Rise in holy force detected. Main attack incoming.

Oops. That last strike wasn’t the main one?

(((Face your ruinous end, demon lord! Trinity Disintegration!!)))

Whoa, crap! Beelzebuth ain’t gonna cut it now.

Report. It is not a problem. Invoke Absolute Defense from the ultimate skill Uriel, Lord of Vows?

Right. Yeah. That’s the thing. That was definitely the first time I used that move. I had been using Multilayer Barrier up to now, not Absolute Defense.

Taking advantage of my Mind Accelerate speedup, I finally asked Raphael the question on my mind.

Hey. Why didn’t you activate that earlier? I could’ve blocked that strike on Hinata with that thing!

The response was enough to push my frustration to the brink.

Understood. This is because the ultimate skill Uriel’s Absolute Defense may still be penetrated by spiritual particles on occasion. As a result, it was determined that invoking it would be meaningless.

Raphael made it sound like common sense. I swear, you don’t have to be such a perfectionist about this stuff…

The behavior of the spiritual particles that magicules were made of was apparently difficult to predict. They ignored time and space as they moved around, cutting straight through well near any barrier. The near-random elements that controlled their movements—the forces of nature that governed over these particles—made it impossible for Absolute Defense to handle them, unless you knew how they worked.

Someone else's drawing they sent me, I never thought I'd use it but it's something like this[don't ask me why it was sonic, Idk either]:

The few spirit particles that "occasionally escape" the Beelzebuth's manifested phenomenon[black thingy] which is being used as a sort of a barrier here reach the heart core and partially destroy it, in this case, destroying Beelzebuth.

Show those other statements of it destroying the heartcore.... looks like you did and what do we have here? Oh I'm gonna have a field day with this.

This is why you should learn a thing called "reading the full post first before yapping". The scans were right below the part you're replying to

Okay so new info

1. People included in the first bolded portion resist disintegration.
2. Those who can resurrect after physical destruction can escape from/survive it.

If they resist it, it's not completely destroying them so no complete destruction. No complete destruction= No HGR, might even affect MGR (from surviving disintegration) since this statement clearly only covers up to physical destruction. If they can resist something far deadlier than disintegration, meltslash, they sure as hell are resisting disintegration. Prelix as an example of someone that can resurrect only had his /her spirit particles scattered not erased so there's already evidence of this. More examples will indicate a pattern.

Bruh, thought I'd focus on "physically destructive force", sorry but I look at the bigger picture. First bolded portion put another way also means Disintegration doesn't always penetrate info particles,

Now this man[or woman] thinks both work the same even tho I yapped a long para explaining how disintegration and death streak's working is different, with the only essential part being that spirit particles in general reach the heart core. And the man[or woman] is also forgetting the whole point of disintegration while directly or indirectly claiming "Disintegration only covers physical destruction".
"If they can resist something far deadlier than disintegration, meltslash, they sure as hell are resisting disintegration", except...
A strong Demon's[spiritual lifeform] regeneration/resurrection:

Of course, some monsters really don’t need a brain—their intellectual makeup resides in their astral or spiritual bodies instead. There are even some supernatural creatures who think with their “hearts,” so to speak, instead of any brain organ. Think of it as kind of like people who’ve gained the Complete Memory skill, such as Shion. All that does is re-create memories, of course, but it opens up the potential for thinking purely with one’s soul and astral body…And once you achieve that, it pretty much releases you from a physical life span and punches your ticket to spiritual livelihood. Once that happens, pretty much no physical attack can deal fatal damage, and if your physical body’s torn apart, you can regenerate it at will. Only certain special attacks, or weapons graded Legend or higher, would be any kind of threat.

Demons are immortal, so if they die, they just get reborn like that. Even these, however, can be destroyed if their core is shattered, I think. Demons are pretty tough, though, so maybe even losing their “soul” like that may still be survivable. That’s especially true if you’re closely aligned with the Primal colors. If you’re lucky enough to defeat one, though, you also have to break their core, or your victory will have been pointless.

Yet a Disintegration can do this:

“Let me provide you a prayer to the divine. I hope and desire for the power ofthe holy spirits. Listen to my appeal and overcome all in your way!Disintegration!!”

The request, delivered in Hinata’s beautiful voice, was granted. The resulting show of force was literally divine, enough to crush all physical and spiritual presences within its defined space. It was the ultimate in targeted, destructive magic, emitting flashes of white light as it poured from Hinata’s hands to the circle. It sped out at thousands of miles per hour, almost at light speed, as its holy power made cells and souls vanish without a trace. It was more than enough to make the Glutton disappear, not affecting the space around it at all.

When the casting of ‘Disintegration’ was complete, there was no way anyone could defend against the beam of light. The beam would shatter even the soul of the target at lightning speed.

Or at least, this was how it should have worked.

Yet this common sense was shattered.

“Mmmh, very fine chanting. Perhaps this is the best example of one’s understanding of the flow of magic.” Granbell said in an incredibly cruel tone. The arrogance in his tone sounded like something a teacher would say to a student.

Raine was extremely shocked. Yet the victor had already been decided. Around Raine were layers of magic circles formed by glowing mantras. They appeared out of thin air as Diablo snapped his fingers. Being caught in the magic circle, Raine didn’t dare to move a muscle. If she were to move, Diablo would trigger the magic.

And the spell was—

“T-this is multi-stage ‘Disintegration’…? B-but that spell is a hard counter to demons and is extremely dangerous. You could end up dying using it, why would you use that…?!”
{{Note: This is the Primordial Demon Rain saying that, beings who can revive from core destruction, and that is the only "Death" for them, core destruction; Although, they can ultimately survive due to their heart core revival}}

Diablo glared coldly at Raine.

How can you not even know this—He thought to himself as he pitied her with a cold heart.

“How boring. If your faith in your master is strong enough, you can even control spiritrons. It’s common sense.”

The fundamental here is that Death Streak and Disintegration work differently in terms of "how much they effect" and "how destructive they are", but both make use of the same particles; Spiritons, Death Streak precisely aims for information particles only while ignoring the rest, on the other hand, disintegration just smashes everything with spiritons and destroys everything.

Also, quoting you, "If they can resist something far deadlier than disintegration, meltslash, they sure as hell are resisting disintegration" is that a type or what?" is that a typo or what? Because I sure as hell don't remember Melt Slash being stated as don't remember a statement saying Melt Slash being more deadlier than Disintegration.
And if it is indeed a typo, my first guess is that there was supposed to be an "or" in place of the ",", and that the "more deadlier" is referring to Death Streak[which I'm assuming because the part you're replying to has death streak as the only other mention of a spell other than Disintegration], then your logic completely falls apart because Demons, which are spiritual lifeforms, would resist Death Streak, and by your logic, thus Disintegration as well, which contradicts the narrative because Disintegration is described as the hard counter to demons[spiritual lifeforms].

In other words, you didn't get a single shit of what the narrative was actually talking about, and in your aim of focusing on the part which according to you implied that "No complete destruction= No HGR, might even affect MGR (from surviving disintegration) since this statement clearly only covers up to physical destruction", you completely forgot or didn't read the very thing that distinguishes disintegration from melt slash.

"Bruh, thought I'd focus on "physically destructive force", sorry but I look at the bigger picture. First bolded portion put another way also means Disintegration doesn't always penetrate info particles"

Do you have bad reading comprehension or what? For Death Streak "This magic only penetrated the Information Particles, with perfect precision", which means it will naturally skip the Crystallized Source of Energy, the astral and spiritual body, and everything else that is not made of information, and would not destroy those aspects. That's why Spiritual Lifeforms, who can think with their astral or spiritual body, store their memories inside those aspects and survive.

Now you might yap "But that means they are unaffected even if their information particles are destroyed", well, No. Death Streak does not "destroy" information particles, it rewrites the information on them.

The Abyss Core that Testarossa crushed illuminated the surroundings in a black light. The light had the property of penetrating almost all matter. It was dark light, which did not arise spontaneously. It had no physical destructive power, but it had a certain characteristic. When it penetrated an organism, it would affect its genetic structure. With a forceful rewriting of genes, almost all living things would be forcefully killed. A pure evil magic of death.

However, legend had it that its purpose was different. Only a spiritual lifeform or one whose soul had the capacity to remember could endure this magic. Only those who could resurrect even after their physical bodies were completely destroyed could escape from it. The special particles that made up magicules—spiritrons—emitted a special wave. That was the dark light. It was difficult to fend against using magic and impossible to ward off physically. You could only counter the spiritrons by striking them with other spiritrons. Similarly, dark light could only be countered by dark light.

Genes refer to Information particles here, since we know that's the only thing it actually effects. Spiritual Lifeforms can survive this because they can think with their astral or spiritual body, or soul[all of which are not made of information particles, and are thus ignored by the spell].
Beings who can regenerate their physical body can survive this because such beings are also required to think with their astral or spiritual body.

Of course, some monsters really don’t need a brain—their intellectual makeup resides in their astral or spiritual bodies instead. There are even some supernatural creatures who think with their “hearts,” so to speak, instead of any brain organ. Think of it as kind of like people who’ve gained the Complete Memory skill, such as Shion. All that does is re-create memories, of course, but it opens up the potential for thinking purely with one’s soul and astral body…And once you achieve that, it pretty much releases you from a physical life span and punches your ticket to spiritual livelihood. Once that happens, pretty much no physical attack can deal fatal damage, and if your physical body’s torn apart, you can regenerate it at will. Only certain special attacks, or weapons graded Legend or higher, would be any kind of threat.

Second bolded portion consequently also means Disintegration doesn't destroy the soul (credence once again lended by Prelix's spirit particles only being scattered).

Except, not really, the scan never says "Disintegration destroys the soul", that's your own assumption, completely debunked by this scan:

“Let me provide you a prayer to the divine. I hope and desire for the power ofthe holy spirits. Listen to my appeal and overcome all in your way!Disintegration!!”

The request, delivered in Hinata’s beautiful voice, was granted. The resulting show of force was literally divine, enough to crush all physical and spiritual presences within its defined space. It was the ultimate in targeted, destructive magic, emitting flashes of white light as it poured from Hinata’s hands to the circle. It sped out at thousands of miles per hour, almost at light speed, as its holy power made cells and souls vanish without a trace. It was more than enough to make the Glutton disappear, not affecting the space around it at all.

Why is something more dangerous than Disintegration being hyped by a statement like "it can even destroy the soul" if disintegration can destroy the soul always?
That's two pieces of evidence now (Prelix and Death streak), we now have a pattern, a third one will basically draw a conclusion to be drawn.

Except, that "more dangerous than Disintegration" was never stated and is simply your reading comprehension skills.
The line went as "It wasn’t like Disintegration, which was more of a physically-destructive force.", which is because, as explained above, Disintegration is more like an all-out erasure attack ["more of a physically-destructive force", does NOT mean it causes no spiritual destruction], and "It was the nuclear magic: Death Streak, the ultimate forbidden magic that could even destroy the “soul.”" is because "Forbidden Magic" is dark magic, clearly not in the same category as Disintegration, a Holy Magic. You have enough comprehension skills to understand what that means right? It's not saying "It's more deadlier than disintegration because it can even destroy the soul" but "its unlike destruction due to being less physically-destructive, only targeting the information particles, and can destroy souls and is "Ultimate" in the field of Forbidden Magic".

Don't care, they're the same except the latter is a sword art.

I just clarified it for the sake of you not yapping "That's melt slash, not disintegration!", but it seems you at least understand that part, good.

So it is inside Rimuru, you've admitted it yourself which means disintegration should nuke Raphael as well.

For what ass reason are you continuously forgetting the two possible scenarios explained in the OP as to "why can Raphael still survive disintegration"? Is the information particle part too complex as to go over your head or something?

I asked for feats not your assumptions or theories. Also "diverting it's world language" makes Raphael the subject and object in that sentence so it isn't referring to the VoTW. What here indicates a back up?

Are you now having sentence comprehension issues or what? The sentence is "diverting part of its “World Language” powers to assist me[me being Rimuru]". "World Language" is an alternate translation for VoTW?
That's pretty damn clear from both its vsbw page and its fandom wiki page.

Classification: World Language, The System, The World

The World Language ｢世界の言葉, sekai no kotoba｣ also known as the Voice of the World ｢世界の声, sekai no koe｣ is a natural phenomenon that announces important events.

Great except none of this encompasses the requirements for HGR.

I'm not trying to give the Great Sage of that timeline High Godly Regeneration here, my guy, it seems you're forgetting the fact that this is about whether or not Raphael can help Rimuru do something via using the Voice of the World itself or not, and here it can, since the attacks would have obviously destroyed Great Sage itself[great sage cannot manipulate information particles, never stated or shown to do so, just so you know, so it ain't gonna "escape" or shit].

Once again doesn't cover HGR, says Rimuru was killed and great sage was still there.

My man, Great sage was here when Rimuru was already revived. It was never shown to be "there" even when he was dead.

It doesn't

It has, except you thinking it doesn't is your failing Grammar and memory not remembering that "World Language", for one, an actual name in tensura, and for two, that the part of the scan you quoted[quoting you: Also "diverting it's world language" makes Raphael] is not even the full sentence. Unless you intentionally only quoted that part to manipulate the topic to be focused on, the only scenario I can see happening to make that mistake is a Grammar issue.

Prove this directly, after that Raphael needs feats showing he can bring someone back from complete fundamental destruction.

"Raphael needs feats showing he can bring someone back from complete fundamental destruction", except Great Sage already done that to Rimuru as shown in the game scans along with LN scans previously, it seems your having problems remembering shit again. Rimuru's own case is also, obviously, an example.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Holy cat that was a damn long yap
Still not even near my top 10 tho

i like how only anos fans are disagreeing
(im changing to neutral because of Tatsumi's argument)

You and I both know that has been one of the duality since the beginning of time, along with Goku and Saitama fans

 

[Bahaha]

Image

are you fr right now bro???

this scan is right in front of you and you still agree with high godly regen

My main point for not agreeing with infinite regeneration being HGR is still the same: The LN points out that only Rimuru's body would be destroyed, something they were only denying with the argument that "melt slash/disintegrarion destroys anything in the way", but , this scan says otherwise, making it clear that the Melt Slash/disintegration skill, if the person wants, can be controlled to destroy only one specific thing that is in the way (such as the body).

I have a difficult time believing you two are arguing in good faith with that point. No, disintegration can not be controlled to only specifically target specific bodies and NO Hinata was NOT trying to keep Rimuru alive when TRYING TO MURDER HIM.

First thing. That is NOT Melt Slash and IT ISN'T EVEN REMOTELY RELATED TO MELT SLASH. The only relation is that they are both holy magic techniques, so stop saying Melt Strike is Melt Slash and stop trying to compare the two. "Melt Strike" is Granbell Rosso's technique which fires a beam of disintegration from his sword. One paragraph before that scan tells us this exact information. How can you keep saying this in good faith when a sentence before your scan tells the opposite of what you're saying??

Second thing. Your argument is automatically invalidated and proven false A PARAGRAPH LATER IN THAT EXACT SCAN. You can not control disintegration to only destroy the physical body because the VERY PROPERTY of disintegration was erasing Hinata's soul. Guess what? Even when the attack was unintended for both Venom and Hinata, it still erased the physical part and the soul of both of them.

You can not argue against the multiple pieces of information in the book telling us Disintegration erases all the bodies (physical, spiritual, astral aka physical, memories, souls) and YOU CAN'T NOT USE A SCAN THAT DISPROVES YOUR OWN ARGUMENT. I wish these uppercase and bolded text would help you understand these simple points but you can not argue what you are without arguing in bad faith.

 

[Dog3352]

I have a difficult time believing you two are arguing in good faith with that point. No, disintegration can not be controlled to only specifically target certain things and NO Hinata was NOT trying to keep Rimuru alive when TRYING TO MURDER HIM.

Hinata literally worried that the attack would kill Rimuru and trying not to destroy his body so he could survive: A

First thing. That is NOT Melt Slash and IT ISN'T EVEN REMOTELY RELATED TO MELT SLASH. The only relation is that they are both holy magic techniques, so stop saying Melt Strike is Melt Slash and stop trying to compare the two. "Melt Strike" is Granbell Rosso's technique which fires a beam of disintegration from his sword. One paragraph before that scan tells us this exact information. How can you keep saying this in good faith when a sentence before your scan tells the opposite of what you're saying??

In addition to the scan not even mentioning Melt Strike, there is also the fact that Melt Strike and Melt Slash are the same thing, the only difference is that one is a sword strike, while the other launches Disintegration rays, both are the disintegration spell used differently, even your scan shows that Melt Strike is Disintegrarion, lmao.

Second thing. Your argument is automatically invalidated and proven false A PARAGRAPH LATER IN THAT EXACT SCAN. You can not control disintegration to only destroy the physical body because the VERY PROPERTY of disintegration was erasing Hinata's soul. Guess what? Even when the attack was unintended for both Venom and Hinata, it still erased the physical part and the soul of both of them.

Disintegration, Melt Slash and Melt Strike are all the same thing, just used differently, and as the scan itself says, Disintegration can be controlled to erase just one specific thing instead of everything in the way, as you can clearly see just the armor being erased, even with the disintegration completely covering the character. Venom's soul was not erased, the text literally says that as long as his soul remains intact, he can come back to life, Hinata who "was".

You can not argue against the multiple pieces of information in the book telling us Disintegration erases the bodies (physical, spiritual, astral aka physical, memories, souls) and YOU CAN'T NOT USE A SCAN THAT DISPROVES YOUR OWN ARGUMENT. I wish these uppercase and bolded text would help you understand these simple points but you can not argue what you are without arguing in bad faith

It doesn't make any argument invalid, the scan shows Disintegration very well, even completely hitting the character, destroying only the armor, making it very clear that it is possible to control the attack to erase only one specific thing.

 

[Bahaha]

My main point for not agreeing with infinite regeneration being HGR is still the same: The LN points out that only Rimuru's body would be destroyed, something they were only denying with the argument that "melt slash/disintegrarion destroys anything in the way", but , this scan says otherwise, making it clear that the Melt Slash/disintegration skill, if the person wants, can be controlled to destroy only one specific thing that is in the way (such as the body).

Yes, like we've been saying, size is a very important point of disintegration. If the enemy is too large for usual disintegration, like Veldora, then you can't completely erase the target. You can use a different technique such as "Sanctuary Disintegration" to increase the size of disintegration and completely erase the foe. Masters of holy magic can combine their sword arts and disintegration to create special techniques like "Melt Slash", which cloaks the user in disintegration, or "Melt Strike", which fires a strike/beam of disintegration. HOWEVER, disintegration is large enough to completely erase a human or similar-sized beings

Saying disintegration doesn't erase the soul of armor is ridiculous. Armor doesn't HAVE SOULS. Only higher-ranked armor have WILLS, even then those aren't fully souls. Therefore your argument doesn't really have any point here.

 

[Dog3352]

Yes, like we've been saying, size is a very important point of disintegration. If the enemy is too large for usual disintegration, like Veldora, then you can't completely erase the target. You can use a different technique such as "Sanctuary Disintegration" to increase the size of disintegration and completely erase the foe. Masters of holy magic can combine their sword arts and disintegration to create special techniques like "Melt Slash", which cloaks the user in disintegration, or "Melt Strike", which fires a strike/beam of disintegration. HOWEVER, disintegration is large enough to completely erase a human or similar-sized beings

Saying disintegration doesn't erase the soul of armor is ridiculous. Armor doesn't HAVE SOULS. Only higher-ranked armor have WILLS, even then those aren't fully souls. Therefore your argument doesn't really have any point here.

You are clearly not reading what is written correctly, whether in the scan or in what I wrote.

The range of the spell doesn't matter at all in the scan I sent, since Shuna made the spell completely swallow Gai.
And what the hell do you mean by "soul of armor"? Neither I nor the scan says anything about "armor's soul", what I said is that the scan shows the Disintegration spell, even covering Gai's entire body, erasing ONLY the armor, making it clear that the person can control the spell to erase only one specific thing (such as the physical body or armor), even if it covers the person's entire being.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Yes, I don't have much free time right now so I'm answering this very late.

This very much can mean that she just noticed Granbell was about to use Melt Slash in advance and moved in to block it. Otherwise it would contradict the whole premise of the LN for the "Nothing physical can exceed SoL" assumption, since her coming in to block the attack is still considered physical movement.

The problem is that reacting to a light speed attack or light beams does not often mean SoL/FTL reaction speed, such feats are usually Relavistic+. Currently, there is not even a single accepted calculation for the speed of light for both Web Novel and Light Novel continuity. The FTL ratings in Web Novel and Relavistic+ ratings in Light Novel are just a placeholder.

Also, you're forgetting that the whole point of this is not "can Rimuru dodge it" but rather "what happens if Rimuru takes on a direct hit". No dodging is involved here, it's just Rimuru standing as is and experiencing melt slash directly.

I've already explained this, but you need to use a little imagination to understand.

About CRT

---

After reading comments, I can say that both the supporters and the opposition have used a lot of scanning of different contexts to justify their opinions, away from the context in question, and the problems have become a ball of string instead of being solved.

So I will only give my opinion on the content of some converstional scans. If you are going to reply, reply after reading the entire comment.

1st Argument

---

Spoiler: 1

解当然です大量に 魔素量を そ 損 したでしょうが マテリアルボディ 物質体は 無限再生で即時復活が可能でした

Dude, don’t clam up on me, you bastard! I can totally picture you reacting like “Oh no, Rimuru got me” just now! Your silence is telling me everything I need to know!
Although… Wait a second. I know Raphael isn’t the type to take dangerous risks, but…could I have, like, survived a Meltslash blow without having to cancel it out with Belzebuth?

Understood. Of course. You lost a great deal of magical energy, but your material body could have been instantly reconstructed with Infinite Regeneration.
—OTL Light Novel; Volume 7, Chapter 6: Gods and Demon Lords

The first scan tells us that Infinite Regeneration can regenerate Rimuru's physical body, even though Rimuru has a small amount of magic left. So if Melt Slash destroys the physical body, Rimuru can regenerate from it. This is the conclusion we can reach from this scan.

Just based on this scan:

•You can't say that Melt Slash can only destroy Rimuru's physical body or Infinite Regeneration can only regenerate Rimuru's physical body.

•Likewise, you can't say that Melt Slash can destroy anything beyond the physical body, or that Infinite Regeneration will provide regeneration at a higher level than the destruction of the physical body.

Spoiler: 2

Let's look at the explanation given to us about the working logic of Infinite Regeneration.

The scan just says is that Shion can regenerate with Infinite Regeneration as long as her magicules left remain.

Magicules are a type of energy used to manipulate concepts and laws, that is, to cast magic. Souls, like magicules, are basically energy. Both magicules and souls can crystallize or become intangible. However, basically the building block of both is information.

However, the fact that they are both fundamental information does not mean that Shion regenerate as long as fundamental information exists with Infinite Regeneration. The explanation is pretty clear: Shion can regenerate with Infinite Regeneration as long as magicules left remain.

Meanwhile, this scan does not constitute an anti-feat for Shion's ability to regenerate her magicules or soul through her fundamental information.

Spoiler: 3

First off, it weakens you a lot. Which, yeah, of course it does—I took all their soul energy out. I’ve taken their souls, and there’s no real reason for me to give them back, and I don’t see how they have any right to complain about it.

So thanks to that, they’re no longer able to invoke any skills. Even if skill data was written into their hearts, they can’t use it at all without enough soul energy. From now until the natural end of their lives, they’ve got no hope of learning or using a single skill.
—OTL Light Novel; Volume 13, Epilogue; The Deeds Of A Demon Lord

Spoiler: 4

I say exchanges, but it was entirely me defending. The rules were intense— one mistake, and you’re out—but I was still fending her off. A roaring fist from Milim surged past my right cheek. If I didn’t focus, I’d never be able to dodge it. A single hit would shatter my body, no doubt. I had Infinite Regeneration, a healing skill more powerful than even its Ultraspeed cousin, but abusing it would drain my magicules too quickly. I could probably regenerate myself after being reduced to goo, but keep that up long enough, and I’d run out of stamina first.
—OTL Light Novel; Volume 6, Chapter 5: Walpurgis

I'm responding directly to the OP here.

However, strictly speaking, these Magicules are only necessary when regenerating the Physical Body, not the Soul, which is because the Physical Body is made of Magicules (it's a Magicule-Bade Corpus). Because essentially, Souls instead need a thing called "Soul Energy" to work:

That is to say, Infinite Regeneration only requires Magicules when regenerating the Physical Body, because the Physical Body is made up of Magicules. It can also, however, perfectly work without it as long as the user has enough Soul Energy.

First of all, the material body (consisting of flesh and bones) and the magical body (consisting of magicules) are different things, even though they are both physical. Magical body, which can replace the material body; it is a body composed of magicules that can solidify or become intangibles. As the magic is performed, magicules begin to run out and the magical body begins to disappear. However, the material body can consist of many different substances and it is permanent as long as it is not destroyed.

On the other hand, many skills, such as magic, also require magicules to work.

Therefore, the material body is not composed of magicules, but magicules is needed to reproduce the matter that makes up the material body, and these magicules are probably nothing more than the magicules required for Infinite Regeneration to work.

Also, considering the previous statements, it is not that difficult to understand that the concept of Soul Energy in the second statement is nothing more than Mana/Magicules required for the skills to work.

If there are other controversial scans related to the first argument, mention them.

 

[Bahaha]

Hinata literally worried that the attack would kill Rimuru and trying not to destroy his body so he could survive: A

Hinata may have worried about Rimuru after learning the truth, but she still had to murder Rimuru because she was the Saint of the people.

In addition to the scan not even mentioning Melt Strike, there is also the fact that Melt Strike and Melt Slash are the same thing, the only difference is that one is a sword strike, while the other launches Disintegration rays, both are the disintegration spell. used differently, even your scan shows that Melt Strike is Disintegrarion, lmao.

That particular comment was not using the same scan but you were still parroting the same argument from the first scan. I agree both of them use disintegration, but I disagree both of them are the same. Holy magic can be used to both heal and kill people, but that doesn't mean killing and healing are the same. Both techniques use disintegration, but their techniques differ in the usage.

Disintegration, Melt Slash and Melt Strike are all the same thing, just used differently, and as the scan itself says,

So you agree that you can not compare the same in the usage? Right?

Disintegration can be controlled to erase just one specific thing instead of everything in the way, as you can clearly see just the armor being erased, even with the disintegration completely covering the character.

This is weird because controlling Spiritron movement to only target specific things should be impossible for anyone else than Raphael. Can you tell me the exact volume of the scan so I can get more context?

Venom's soul was not erased, the text literally says that as long as his soul remains intact, he can come back to life, Hinata who "was".

Part of Venom's soul was erased, and Hinata's soul was also being erased after getting hit. Again, spiritual lifeforms can live with their core and can regenerate their soul. However, a non-spiritual lifeform like Hinata was having her soul erased by the property of Spiritrons.

It doesn't make any argument invalid, the scan shows Disintegration very well, even completely hitting the character, destroying only the soul, making it very clear that it is possible to control the attack to erase only one specific thing.

"Hinata jumped in between but was instantly pierced by the beam" "Although her superficial wounds were healing". The attack pierced her stomach, it definitely erased a part of her physical body.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Since the 2nd page, all your contributions to the conversation have been nonsense or memes. This is an official warning to stop.

 

[Dog3352]

Hinata may have worried about Rimuru after learning the truth, but she still had to murder Rimuru because she was the Saint of the people.

She says she didn’t want to kill Rimuru, I don’t even know what you are talking about now.

That particular comment was not using the same scan but you were still parroting the same argument from the first scan. I agree both of them use disintegration, but I disagree both of them are the same. Holy magic can be used to both heal and kill people, but that doesn't mean killing and healing are the same. Both techniques use disintegration, but their techniques differ in the usage.

Bruh, the OP uses the point that Melt Slash, Disintegration and Melt Strike have the same nature, and the only difference is that they are used differently, as I said, the 3 essentially are literally Disintegration, just used in a different way, if one is capable or incapable of something, the other will be too.

So you agree that you can not compare the same in the usage? Right?

Obviously you can compare the 3 in terms of use, all 3 are Disintegration, the only difference is that they are imbued with swords.

This is weird because controlling Spiritron movement to only target specific things should be impossible for anyone else than Raphael. Can you tell me the exact volume of the scan so I can get more context?

I'll research the volume, anyway, there's really no context to talk about this, as Rimuru himself said, someone with control over Disintegration is capable of doing such a thing.

Part of Venom's soul was erased, and Hinata's soul was also being erased after getting hit. Again, spiritual lifeforms can live with their core and can regenerate their soul. However, a non-spiritual lifeform like Hinata was having her soul erased by the property of Spiritrons.

Nothing says that a part of Venom's soul was erased, and I never denied the Hinata thing.

"Hinata jumped in between but was instantly pierced by the beam" "Although her superficial wounds were healing". The attack pierced her stomach, it definitely erased a part of her physical body.

This doesn't contradict my point, the objective there was to completely destroy the target, unlike when Shuna used it, where she controlled the magic to only specifically destroy the armor

 

[CelestialVortex01]

Since the 2nd page, all your contributions to the conversation have been nonsense or memes. This is an official warning to stop.

My bad, this was turning into a dead-serious convo. so I wanted to lighten the mood but it's fine I can stop.

 

[CodeCCLL]

By the way, why does everyone forget information particles (not information) themselves aren't abstract or the spirituons (not information particle) themselves aren't physical? These are just names.

•Magicules and Soul is an abstract energy that can be crystallized (turn to physical) and consists of fundamental information.

•Spiritrons (reishi) are the building blocks of spiritual matter, like soul.

•Information particles are quantum particles, which are the root of all matter, even forming maqro-kuantum particles like photons.

•The fundamental information carried by information particles.

•The core itself is fundemental information and conceptual self but has a container/vessel (physical) made of information particles.

•The skills themselves are fundamental information but probably found in information particles that reside in the container/vessel of the core.

 

[CodeCCLL]

2nd Argument

Spoiler: 1

But deep down, in a heart he should never have had, in a corner of Rimuru’s soul—a will was born. A self, to put it another way. There had to be one there or else a skill wouldn’t evolve in such rogue fashion in order to fulfill its master’s wishes. And then the question came: Why did I take this kind of action? It came from within Raphael, and it was solid proof that this being had a self, separate from his master.
And yet, even this slight suspicion toward himself that was born in his head was something Raphael quickly turned his eyes from.
I think, therefore I am…
It was a thesis that Raphael would find himself constantly thinking about, going forward—and never finding an answer.
Regardless of his internal conflicts, Raphael continued with his incomparably accurate work. He analyzed and assessed nearly a hundred monsters at the same time, repairing their bodies, regenerating their souls, and finally resurrecting them. It was a seamless flow, not a single extraneous motion involved, and everything was handled at the right place and time. Before the monsters in town realized it, the miracle had secretly completed itself.
—OTL Light Novel; Volume 6, Chapter 5: The Unleased

Note: The reference here is wrong, this part should be Volume 5, Chapter 5.


Here, I mentioned on some physiological terms using the images in the anime.

As you can see, I do not think that the "heart" mentioned here really means another abstract core. The statement may only be about emotions, or it may be about the physical heart. Although there is nothing explicit in the Light Novel about the Soul being inside the physical Nuclear Heart, the Anime depicts the Soul as also being protected by the physical Nuclear Heart, and the Anime visuals are considered canon for Light Novel unless contradicted with Light Novel material.

For these reasons, I don't really believe that Raphael has a different abstract core than Rimuru.

I guess there is not a need to mention anything else. As a result, I do not agree with the proposals in the thread.

If anyone has issues with Rimuru's MGR and Disintegration, they can make another CRT regarding this. I don't want to waste time explaining all the techniques for the Disintegration here (Sanctuary Disintegration, Multi-Stage Disintegration, Trinity Disintegration, Disintegration, Melt Slash, Melt Strike).

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

My opinion on this thread is

Neutral on Anything High Godly for infinite regeneration
Strong agreement for Mid-Godly as an alternative just in case
Disagree heavily with anything below mid-Godly as an alternative.

There is enough evidence for Mid-Godly already

 

[CodeCCLL]

By the way, those who say that the soul must be destroyed to truly destroy a skill in the abstract core are completely right. The destruction of the magicules that form the manifestation of Beelzebub does not mean the destruction of Beelzebub himself. If Beelzebub's information had not been destroyed int the core, there would be no need for a copy to use Beelzebub.

Yes, the case with Beelzebub's destruction is quite strange and somewhat contradictionary. There are two possibilities: Melt Slash reached Rimuru's core by destroying his physical body and soul, but Rimuru appeared to be unharmed because the destroyed part instantly regenerated. Or when Melt Slash touched Beelzebub, everything about Beelzebub was somehow erased in a chain reaction.

Actually, I don't think this part is something that should really be taken seriously.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

By the way, those who say that the soul must be destroyed to truly destroy a skill in the abstract core are completely right. The destruction of the magicules that form the manifestation of Beelzebub does not mean the destruction of Beelzebub himself. If Beelzebub's information had not been destroyed int the core, there would be no need for a copy to use Beelzebub.

Yes, the case with Beelzebub's destruction is quite strange and somewhat contradictionary. There are two possibilities: Melt Slash reached Rimuru's core by destroying his physical body and soul, but Rimuru appeared to be unharmed because the destroyed part instantly regenerated. Or when Melt Slash touched Beelzebub, everything about Beelzebub was somehow erased in a chain reaction.

Actually, I don't think this part is something that should really be taken seriously.

I think Raphael or Great Sage (since pre demon lord) really intended to trick Hinata by completely pulling out an authentic Beelzebub with Rimuru's properties as bait.
He was also able to hide afterward.
Remember, a Great sage has the capability to sacrifice skills and abilities as well which he later did in the awakening which is before Rimuru's awakened completely so the ability def exist even before it, so it is not likely that he can somehow remove the entire thing.
One important thing about Rimuru's ability to create copies of things he absorbs is that. He can still retain information on how to create them but if he lacks a lot of the necessary materials or cannot produce those materials it would be difficult to produce said item or information etc so Great sage requiring copy is likely for that possible case.

 

[Tatsumi504]

By the way, those who say that the soul must be destroyed to truly destroy a skill in the abstract core are completely right. The destruction of the magicules that form the manifestation of Beelzebub does not mean the destruction of Beelzebub himself. If Beelzebub's information had not been destroyed int the core, there would be no need for a copy to use Beelzebub.

I haven't been keeping up with everything outside my replies but from what I saw, I don't think anyone claimed just the manifestation of beelzebub was destroyed.

I can't fully remember everything but it seems the case with beelzebub is the only time disintegration has been shown to actually destroy information or information particles so I didn't get why Astral was using this one case as the norm, standard for what it does especially with the stuff about prelix, death streak contradicting it.

Yes, the case with Beelzebub's destruction is quite strange and somewhat contradictionary. There are two possibilities: Melt Slash reached Rimuru's core by destroying his physical body and soul, but Rimuru appeared to be unharmed because the destroyed part instantly regenerated. Or when Melt Slash touched Beelzebub, everything about Beelzebub was somehow erased in a chain reaction.

Agree with the chain reaction part but disagree with saying it reached/bypassed his physical body and soul to reach the core. He was completely unharmed after all. As Dog said, sacrificing beelzebub to block melt slash is what led to it's destruction, without that action, his skills will be unharmed and melt slash may or may not have completely destroyed his body and soul.

 

[CelestialVortex01]

Has anybody called some mods?

 

[CodeCCLL]

stuff about prelix

I haven't read the relevant content.

reached/bypassed his physical body and soul to reach the core. He was completely unharmed after all.

The "bypass" is not really possible. The "reached" seems inconsistent as I said so I agree with you. We don't have to explain everything logically, but if we had to explain it, this would also be a possibility.

Has anybody called some mods?

They've been tagged, but naturally they may not want to comment.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Alright, I found some time for this so here goes nothing

The problem is that reacting to a light speed attack or light beams does not often mean SoL/FTL reaction speed, such feats are usually Relavistic+. Currently, there is not even a single accepted calculation for the speed of light for both Web Novel and Light Novel continuity. The FTL ratings in Web Novel and Relavistic+ ratings in Light Novel are just a placeholder.

Talking about LN strictly, I'm not trying to give them SoL tho. I already clarified it as "This very much can mean that she just noticed Granbell was about to use Melt Slash in advance and moved in to block it"

---

Spoiler: 1

解当然です大量に 魔素量を そ 損 したでしょうが マテリアルボディ 物質体は 無限再生で即時復活が可能でした

Dude, don’t clam up on me, you bastard! I can totally picture you reacting like “Oh no, Rimuru got me” just now! Your silence is telling me everything I need to know!
Although… Wait a second. I know Raphael isn’t the type to take dangerous risks, but…could I have, like, survived a Meltslash blow without having to cancel it out with Belzebuth?

Understood. Of course. You lost a great deal of magical energy, but your material body could have been instantly reconstructed with Infinite Regeneration.
—OTL Light Novel; Volume 7, Chapter 6: Gods and Demon Lords

The first scan tells us that Infinite Regeneration can regenerate Rimuru's physical body, even though Rimuru has a small amount of magic left. So if Melt Slash destroys the physical body, Rimuru can regenerate from it. This is the conclusion we can reach from this scan.

Just based on this scan:

•You can't say that Melt Slash can only destroy Rimuru's physical body or Infinite Regeneration can only regenerate Rimuru's physical body.

•Likewise, you can't say that Melt Slash can destroy anything beyond the physical body, or that Infinite Regeneration will provide regeneration at a higher level than the destruction of the physical body.

The latter, technically yes, although Shion's version of it backs up Infinite regen being able to regenerate from destruction of a higher level then just physical; as long as the "heart core is not destroyed".
Likewise, for the prior, taking one more scan into account [specifically the one explaining that Beelzebuth was destroyed], Melt Slash did ultimately destroy Beelzebuth, a skill that resides in Rimuru's heart core, so we can indeed say that the destruction caused was beyond the physical body.

Spoiler: 2

Let's look at the explanation given to us about the working logic of Infinite Regeneration.

The scan just says is that Shion can regenerate with Infinite Regeneration as long as her magicules left remain.

Magicules are a type of energy used to manipulate concepts and laws, that is, to cast magic. Souls, like magicules, are basically energy. Both magicules and souls can crystallize or become intangible. However, basically the building block of both is information.

However, the fact that they are both fundamental information does not mean that Shion regenerate as long as fundamental information exists with Infinite Regeneration. The explanation is pretty clear: Shion can regenerate with Infinite Regeneration as long as magicules left remain.

Meanwhile, this scan does not constitute an anti-feat for Shion's ability to regenerate her magicules or soul through her fundamental information.

Pretty much. And this scan backs it up

This bold decisiveness was one Shion’s strengths. Shion let out a roar and fully immersed herself in combat mode. Her body, optimized with the Unique Skill ‘Cook,’ helped Shion increase her strength beyond her existence value. Shion’s body was made highly suitable for close combat with ‘Infinite Regeneration, ’surpassing even that of a giant. Physically immortal, she would not die unless her ‘heart core’ was shattered. ~ Volume 20

First of all, the material body (consisting of flesh and bones) and the magical body (consisting of magicules) are different things, even though they are both physical. Magical body, which can replace the material body; it is a body composed of magicules that can solidify or become intangibles. As the magic is performed, magicules begin to run out and the magical body begins to disappear. However, the material body can consist of many different substances and it is permanent as long as it is not destroyed.

We are talking about Rimuru's physical body here, the "Physical" manifested form of a spiritual lifeform, so naturally it will be the "magical body".

On the other hand, many skills, such as magic, also require magicules to work. Therefore, the material body is not composed of magicules, but magicules is needed to reproduce the matter that makes up the material body, and these magicules are probably nothing more than the magicules required for Infinite Regeneration to work.

However, those magicules can also be gathered from the surroundings, and can act as replacement for magicules in the body

So thanks to that, they’re no longer able to invoke any skills. Even if skill data was written into their hearts, they can’t use it at all without enough soul energy. From now until the natural end of their lives, they’ve got no hope of learning or using a single skill. It’ll also affect their magic-casting abilities, but that at least is something they oughtta be able to improve with practice. Once they get the hang of it to some extent, they’ll be able to tap into magic without using any soul power. Magic is a skill, but it’s also an art, and that means it’s possible to invoke it with the magicules in the air instead of those in your body. So arts are still available to them, as long as they train themselves enough to earn them. Unless they rely on their skills for everything in their lives, I think they’ll bounce back just fine. ~ Volume 13

This evidentially means that "Magicules" do exist even in a physical body.

Regarding the latter, I think both the magicules inside the body and that outside it[in the surroundings] can be used as alternatives to each other.

Also, considering the previous statements, it is not that difficult to understand that the concept of Soul Energy in the second statement is nothing more than Mana/Magicules required for the skills to work.

Not exactly, no.

Whether it belongs to a human being or a monster, all souls have a set quality and quantity. It is composed of matter known as data particles, and through managing and applying certain forces to them, it’s possible to control life and death to some extent. The souls of plants and animals house only a very tiny amount of energy. Human souls, meanwhile, have tons and tons. We’ve already confirmed that a certain amount is given to everyone equally, and the ability to fully hardness that soul energy leads to the manifestation of soul powers—or what we call special skills. This data, engraved in your soul since birth, is the source of those powers.

This pretty much makes it clear that "Soul Energy" refers to the amount of information particles in the heart core; No, it's also not the same as "Crystallized Energy" that composes the Layer called the "Soul" itself.

By the way, why does everyone forget information particles (not information) themselves aren't abstract or the spirituons (not information particle) themselves aren't physical? These are just names.

•Magicules and Soul is an abstract energy that can be crystallized (turn to physical) and consists of fundamental information.

Magicules, yes, Soul, it's a crystallized from the start in its abstract form. There's no 'turning it physical' or "can be crystallized", especially the latter because it already is that from the beginning. - Note, here I'm strictly referring to the layer called the soul, not the whole of the soul including its inner components.

•Spiritrons (reishi) are the building blocks of spiritual matter, like soul.

Yep.
And if anyone wants the scan:

But how far could you apply healing potions, huh? Well, they worked on people, of course, as well as animals, plants, and monsters. Where’s the threshold, then, the boundary between effective and ineffective? This was actually kind of fascinating. Is being “alive” or not the main thing? Probably not. It was the presence of a consciousness that likely made the difference.

Report. Plants have a consciousness as well. A consciousness has its roots in the soul, a collection of the spiritual particles that form magicules. Its presence, or lack thereof, is thought to be the difference.

Right. Plants have wills—maybe they’re not fully sentient, but they have a desire to keep living. But swords don’t have “souls,” and therefore no wills. They’re just things, so obviously… ~ Volume 9 Chapter 2

•Information particles are quantum particles,

Tbh, I should really make a thread for this, since in essence they're quite different.

•The core itself is fundemental information and conceptual self but has a container/vessel (physical) made of information particles.

The Core itself is the set of "Information Particles", those things don't act as a container, they are the core itself. The information particles/heart core are/is only the contains of the "Ego".

The data particles that formed Clayman’s heart core have been kept in place with Isolate. Should I gather them up to replace Teare’s missing parts?
~ Volume 19

So is the data written directly onto this energy? Not exactly. First, there’s the ego, a set of amorphous wavelengths within the soul, and the group of data particles that surrounds it. This is known as the heart, and that’s where all the data is stored. The crystallized energy that covers this heart is what we call the soul.

The last highlighted part just means that the "Data" itself is written on the information particles

•The skills themselves are fundamental information but probably found in information particles that reside in the container/vessel of the core.

While Skills themselves are Data, they are indeed written in the information particles; However, once again, it's not "container of the core" but the core itself.

2nd Argument

Spoiler: 1

But deep down, in a heart he should never have had, in a corner of Rimuru’s soul—a will was born. A self, to put it another way. There had to be one there or else a skill wouldn’t evolve in such rogue fashion in order to fulfill its master’s wishes. And then the question came: Why did I take this kind of action? It came from within Raphael, and it was solid proof that this being had a self, separate from his master.
And yet, even this slight suspicion toward himself that was born in his head was something Raphael quickly turned his eyes from.
I think, therefore I am…
It was a thesis that Raphael would find himself constantly thinking about, going forward—and never finding an answer.
Regardless of his internal conflicts, Raphael continued with his incomparably accurate work. He analyzed and assessed nearly a hundred monsters at the same time, repairing their bodies, regenerating their souls, and finally resurrecting them. It was a seamless flow, not a single extraneous motion involved, and everything was handled at the right place and time. Before the monsters in town realized it, the miracle had secretly completed itself.
—OTL Light Novel; Volume 6, Chapter 5: The Unleased

Note: The reference here is wrong, this part should be Volume 5, Chapter 5.

Will fix it.

Here, I mentioned on some physiological terms using the images in the anime.

As you can see, I do not think that the "heart" mentioned here really means another abstract core. The statement may only be about emotions, or it may be about the physical heart. Although there is nothing explicit in the Light Novel about the Soul being inside the physical Nuclear Heart, the Anime depicts the Soul as also being protected by the physical Nuclear Heart, and the Anime visuals are considered canon for Light Novel unless contradicted with Light Novel material.

For these reasons, I don't really believe that Raphael has a different abstract core than Rimuru.

I guess there is not a need to mention anything else. As a result, I do not agree with the proposals in the thread.

You cannot really have a "Physical" heart inside the Soul....
There are two kinds of Hearts, Heart Core of the Soul, or the literal biological heart. The "nuclear heart" is not something every living being possesses, iirc, so I won't be counting it.
Why do Plants have Souls yet Swords don't? Because they have a will; the biggest thing that matters when it comes to spiritual stuff is whether the being has a will or not, it being sentient or not is another thing, however.

But how far could you apply healing potions, huh? Well, they worked on people, of course, as well as animals, plants, and monsters. Where’s the threshold, then, the boundary between effective and ineffective? This was actually kind of fascinating. Is being “alive” or not the main thing? Probably not. It was the presence of a consciousness that likely made the difference.

Report. Plants have a consciousness as well. A consciousness has its roots in the soul, a collection of the spiritual particles that form magicules. Its presence, or lack thereof, is thought to be the difference.

Right. Plants have wills—maybe they’re not fully sentient, but they have a desire to keep living. But swords don’t have “souls,” and therefore no wills. They’re just things, so obviously… ~ Volume 9 Chapter 2

And, as we know, plants also have Information particles:

Whether it belongs to a human being or a monster, all souls have a set quality and quantity. It is composed of matter known as data particles, and through managing and applying certain forces to them, it’s possible to control life and death to some extent. The souls of plants and animals house only a very tiny amount of energy. Human souls, meanwhile, have tons and tons. We’ve already confirmed that a certain amount is given to everyone equally, and the ability to fully hardness that soul energy leads to the manifestation of soul powers—or what we call special skills. This data, engraved in your soul since birth, is the source of those powers.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I can't fully remember everything but it seems the case with beelzebub is the only time disintegration has been shown to actually destroy information or information particles so I didn't get why Astral was using this one case as the norm, standard for what it does especially with the stuff about prelix, death streak contradicting it.

If you don't remember everything, at least read the conversation again, because it is not the "only case". Sure, it's the only actual feat, but repeated statements continuously suggest otherwise.

 

[CodeCCLL]

There's no 'turning it physical' or "can be crystallized",

It is appeared as physical, which is why I used the word physical, but yes, there is nothing to prove it is definitely physical.

This pretty much makes it clear that "Soul Energy" refers to the amount of information particles in the heart core; No, it's also not the same as "Crystallized Energy" that composes the Layer called the "Soul" itself.

OK looks like I missed this.

The rest seem like things I've already considered but are out of context/extra/do not change the dot or are just for Mid-Godly.

Also, don't you really realize that your comments contradict your offers?

I have already explained/shown the difference between the part of the heart that consists of information particles and the part that is abstract. If you claim that the abstract part of the heart or other so-called abstract things are made up of information particles that are obsivously physical. In fact, in the verse, any character who does not regenerate from the complete destruction of their core should not even be low-godly.

 

[Tatsumi504]

If you don't remember everything, at least read the conversation again, because it is not the "only case". Sure, it's the only actual feat, but repeated statements continuously suggest otherwise.

Or just help a brother out by quoting it?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Or just help a brother out by quoting it?

Be considerate of the fact that others may be busy as well, if you try to argue something that is discussed before already.
Anyways

Damaging a heart core required spiritual particle–level interference. Without destroying them with Disintegration or the like, no one could touch the corresponding data particles.
~ Volume 19 OTL

As well as the quotes on this post starting from the section linked to the last direct quote.

It is appeared as physical, which is why I used the word physical, but yes, there is nothing to prove it is definitely physical.

Pretty much. Anime visuals sometimes tend to go off from the actual notion of something to make it easier to animate. But a more "abstract" picture of the soul is this.

OK looks like I missed this.

The rest seem like things I've already considered but are out of context/extra/do not change the dot or are just for Mid-Godly.

Directly, they don't warrant HGR, but the fact that Raphael's "Emotions" are, in fact, indication of the presence of an Ego and Core is a major thing.

Also, don't you really realize that your comments contradict your offers?

Which one, exactly?

I have already explained/shown the difference between the part of the heart that consists of information particles and the part that is abstract. If you claim that the abstract part of the heart or other so-called abstract things are made up of information particles that are obsivously physical.

Via those images? You do know that the same images are contradicted by images of the soul and everything in it as a more "abstract" thing right?
Using the anime's depiction as something is not the best choice... that's why I always prefer using the LN more due to it having more details then some visually limited images.

There are no "parts" of a heart core; a heart core is simply a set of information particles. The data/information that you so call as "Abstract" is inscribed in the heart core

Whether it belongs to a human being or a monster, all souls have a set quality and quantity. It is composed of matter known as data particles, and through managing and applying certain forces to them, it’s possible to control life and death to some extent. The souls of plants and animals house only a very tiny amount of energy. Human souls, meanwhile, have tons and tons. We’ve already confirmed that a certain amount is given to everyone equally, and the ability to fully hardness that soul energy leads to the manifestation of soul powers—or what we call special skills. This data, engraved in your soul since birth, is the source of those powers

So is the data written directly onto this energy? Not exactly. First, there’s the ego, a set of amorphous wavelengths within the soul, and the group of data particles that surrounds it. This is known as the heart, and that’s where all the data is stored. The crystallized energy that covers this heart is what we call the soul.

I never claimed "the abstract part of the heart or other so-called abstract things are made up of information particles that are obsivously physical", I only claimed "the abstract part of the heart or other so-called abstract things are made up of information particles". Information particles are not physical to begin with. You don't go about taking a BDE1 substance as physical just because.

Take it as this; the information particles collectively are the conceptual self of any being. They are conceptual in nature. Now, this would technically mean that the conceptual self of all beings is same, because all of it is composed of data particles, right? No, and that's where the "information" comes it; It distinguishes one set of data particles of some being from another set of data particles of another being.

A "Concept" by itself is nothing, and so are information particles, but it's the "Information" engraved in those particles that make the heart core the "Concept of someone/something"., it is what makes a Core the "Concept of X-character that defines X aspects of X-character" rather then just some random conceptual material that defines nothing in and of itself.

In fact, in the verse, any character who does not regenerate from the complete destruction of their core should not even be low-godly.

I'm not really sure how you're even concluding such nonsense.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Information particles are not physical to begin with

It is already accepted that they are physical. They are literally described as the heart of all matter, have a mass (even if it almost zero).

You don't go about taking a BDE1 substance as physical just because.

I don't agree with them being BDE Type 1 in the first place anyway.

Indeed, if you claim that information particles are abstract, make a crt because it is already accepted that they are physical quantum particles.

I'm not really sure how you're even concluding such nonsense.

You cannot have the "Godly" regeneration if you still have a physical part in the first place.

 

[CodeCCLL]

I'm really wondering what the next proposals will be: All matter consists of information particles, information particles are conceptual. Therefore, in Tensura matter is conceptual?

 

[Tempestdragon6]

the heck this is just going right through the ear and exit it to the other side

 

[Bahaha]

It is already accepted that they are physical. They are literally described as the heart of all matter, have a mass (even if it almost zero).

This argument was used to downgrade Rimuru's regeneration some time ago but was deemed an outlier because it contradicts most of the setting. I can't image how a particle with mass would be fundamental to a particle without mass. It is contradictory if IP makes up Photons but IPs have mass when Photons do not have mass.

I'm really wondering what the next proposals will be: All matter consists of information particles, information particles are conceptual. Therefore, in Tensura matter is conceptual?

However, the other slippery slope would be "Since all things are made of IP and IP is physical then souls, spirit, and memories in Tensura are all physical."

 

[CodeCCLL]

because it contradicts most of the setting. I

At that time, there was no distinction made between information and information particles.

Since all things are made of IP and IP is physical then souls, spirit, and memories in Tensura are all physical."

Not everything consists of information particles, all matter consists of information pieces. Soul, mind, memories and consciousness consist of information.

 

[CodeCCLL]

This pretty much makes it clear that "Soul Energy" refers to the amount of information particles in the heart core; No, it's also not the same as "Crystallized Energy" that composes the Layer called the "Soul" itself.

Whether it belongs to a human being or a monster, all souls have a set quality and quantity. It is composed of matter known as data particles, and through managing and applying certain forces to them, it’s possible to control life and death to some extent. The souls of plants and animals house only a very tiny amount of energy. Human souls, meanwhile, have tons and tons. We’ve already confirmed that a certain amount is given to everyone equally, and the ability to fully hardness that soul energy leads to the manifestation of soul powers—or what we call special skills. This data, engraved in your soul since birth, is the source of those powers.

Also, when I look at this scan again, there really doesn't seem to be a distinction made between Data Particles and Data, but normally a distinction is made between Information Particles and Information.

Can you give a reference for this? I'll check out raw.

 

[Tempestdragon6]

you're just contradicting your self

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

It is already accepted that they are physical. They are literally described as the heart of all matter, have a mass (even if it almost zero).

They don’t have mass. (If astral doesn’t respond then I will later)

I don't agree with them being BDE Type 1 in the first place anyway.

Indeed, if you claim that information particles are abstract, make a crt because it is already accepted that they are physical quantum particles.

You cannot have the "Godly" regeneration if you still have a physical part in the first place.

 

[Lycoris4812]

Strange, I didn't get a notification for this.

Me too.