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Marvel Comics - Thor Shaking the Realms of the World Tree

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NHTkenshin2 said:
By the way, the feat in question is the stardust vs BRB feat that i brought up, you disagreed with earlier because it was an advertisement blurb, do you agree with it now that there is a statement given by asteroth?
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Yes, I think that it works now.
 
Antvasima said:
I am afraid that we have to keep it, or we would nearly completely blow up the water dam that holds back/prevents the tsunami of chain-scaling all Marvel characters to each other due to that the verse is easily one of the most inconsistent and incoherent ones ever created in that regard.
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Except it wouldn't, because we're not supposed to allow chain-scaling like that to begin with.

I REPEAT, NONE OF THE LOWER RUNG PEOPLE SHOULD SCALE TO THOR AND CO.'S HIGHER END FEATS UNLESS THOR HIMSELF WAS SERIOUS IN THOSE FIGHTS AND GOING ALL OUT. THOSE LOWER RUNG PEOPLE SHOULD SCALE TO THEIR OWN FEATS, AND THEY SHOULD NOT BE USED TO HOLD BACK THOR ARBITRARILY LIKE THIS.

Antvasima said:
It isn't like we are claiming that Thor isn't really 2-C at his peak. We are just adapting to that the Marvel editors have largely not known what the heck they are doing over the years, and as such have to avoid having all 5-B and 3-C characters scaling to 2-C, most other Marvel Comics characters scaling to them in one way or another, and Thor and the Surfer themselves scaling to various cosmic entities.

A statement to most of the participants here:

I would very greatly appreciate if we could all get on the same page with following our rules in this regard and trying to be responsible in accurately portraying the actually displayed tiering for the characters, rather than just irresponsibly aiming for the highest tiers possible via chain-scaling, as I REALLY don't have the available time and energy to constantly singlehandedly try to act as a voice of reason and thinking of the actual consequences in this regard. Marvel Comics does NOT function like most other of our featured verses AT ALL. We have to be much more careful in how we evaluate the scaling if we are going to be able to even feature it in our wiki, and without Impress and Confluctor here to help me prevent a general tiering disaster for this verse, you are all greatly wearing me down.
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It's not so much a feats issue as it is a scaling issue. I would still not advocate any of the lower rung people scaling to Thor and the other heralds in any shape or form even if Thor was 4-C in feats or 4-B in feats unless Thor was explicitly shown to be fully serious and not holding back on his strength in those cases. PERIOD.

Those other people should simply scale to their own feats if any exist.
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
Brother, do you understand what war we have to fight to get solid 2-C?
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You shouldn't fight a war against me or our standards at all, due to the problems with chain-scaling that I mentioned earlier. It would completely mess up the entire structure for Marvel Comics right when we were starting to get things much more in order for it.

Also, base Thor DOES have a solid "2-C, 2-A with the God-Blast" tier already. We simply acknowledge that he is most often not portrayed anywhere near that scale, and as such we rate him as "holding back" to different degrees.

Anyway, I apologise to everybody here if I overreacted in an earlier post above. I find it extremely tiresome to have to try to act as a common sense buffer for Marvel Comics and DC Comics year in and year out, to not have their tierings turn into absolutely unreliable jokes, and am also very busy with work, both here and IRL, so I get stressed out from trying to deal with it all at once.
 
KLOL506 said:
Except it wouldn't, because we're not supposed to allow chain-scaling like that to begin with.

I REPEAT, NONE OF THE LOWER RUNG PEOPLE SHOULD SCALE TO THOR AND CO.'S HIGHER END FEATS UNLESS THOR HIMSELF WAS SERIOUS IN THOSE FIGHTS AND GOING ALL OUT. THOSE LOWER RUNG PEOPLE SHOULD SCALE TO THEIR OWN FEATS, AND THEY SHOULD NOT BE USED TO HOLD BACK THOR ARBITRARILY LIKE THIS.

It's not so much a feats issue as it is a scaling issue. I would still not advocate any of the lower rung people scaling to Thor and the other heralds in any shape or form even if Thor was 4-C in feats or 4-B in feats unless Thor was explicitly shown to be fully serious and not holding back on his strength in those cases. PERIOD.

Those other people should simply scale to their own feats if any exist.
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I think that our current 3-C scaling seems mostly reasonable and shouldn't be completely undone. Also, we are not holding Thor back. We acknowledge that his true tier is "2-C, and 2-A with the God-Blast", but he has canonically exerted himself lots of times against 5-B or 3-C level combatants, so we genuinely need to accommodate for that.
 
As far as Sentry goes, he should definitely scale to Hulk's upper limits. He fought Green Scar Hulk, who was stated by Strange to be the strongest and angriest Hulk has been. Strange's statement has credibility, as he saw the Mindless Hulk, who's basically peak Savage Hulk without Banner to hold him back, and was the version of Hulk who shook the crossroads and was measured as infinite by the Beyonder.
 
Antvasima said:
I think that our current 3-C scaling seems mostly reasonable and shouldn't be completely undone. Also, we are not holding Thor back. We acknowledge that his true tier is "2-C, and 2-A with the God-Blast", but he has canonically exerted himself lots of times against 5-B or 3-C level combatants, so we genuinely need to accommodate for that.
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I still think “3-C up to High 3-A, likely 2-C” works
Or just “3-C up to 2-C”
 
Antvasima said:
I think that our current 3-C scaling seems mostly reasonable and shouldn't be completely undone.
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I'm not necessarily talking about what tier they should be, but rather how the scaling should be handled.

Antvasima said:
Also, we are not holding Thor back. We acknowledge that his true tier is "2-C, and 2-A with the God-Blast", but he has canonically exerted himself lots of times against 5-B or 3-C level combatants, so we genuinely need to accommodate for that.
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That's not telling anybody the full picture. There's always some context behind these "over-exertions" or some leaf we haven't turned over when looking for evidence. Remember, he also holds extensively back. Simply ending it at "canonically exerted himself lots of times against opponents with lower showings" isn't enough, give me every single source for these feats and give me the full context, there's always more to them than meets the eye that they aren't so black and white.
 
Ehnkr2beboh said:
As far as Sentry goes, he should definitely scale to Hulk's upper limits. He fought Green Scar Hulk, who was stated by Strange to be the strongest and angriest Hulk has been. Strange's statement has credibility, as he saw the Mindless Hulk, who's basically peak Savage Hulk without Banner to hold him back, and was the version of Hulk who shook the crossroads and was measured as infinite by the Beyonder.
Click to expand...
I suppose that this may be reasonable, but this particular writer (Greg Pak) only treated a peak rage Hulk as tier High 5-A, so it all unavoidably turns rather messy and incoherent here as well.
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
I still think “3-C up to High 3-A, likely 2-C” works
Or just “3-C up to 2-C”
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Maybe "Usually 3-C. 2-C at his peak", but the Hulk is usually not portrayed as anywhere near tier 3-C, and he and various 5-B characters have all fought Thor quite frequently.
 
KLOL506 said:
I'm not necessarily talking about what tier they should be, but rather how the scaling should be handled.

That's not telling anybody the full picture. There's always some context behind these "over-exertions" or some leaf we haven't turned over when looking for evidence. Remember, he also holds extensively back. Simply ending it at "canonically exerted himself lots of times against opponents with lower showings" isn't enough, give me every single source for these feats and give me the full context, there's always more to them than meets the eye that they aren't so black and white.
Click to expand...
I don't remotely have the time to go through several thousands of issues, but from what I recall, Thor canonically holds back against his quite many 5-B level opponents, yes, but that is the reason why we describe him as doing so in the first place, rather than just saying "the writers and editors for Marvel Comics likely couldn't publish reasonably coherent stories in terms of power levels if their lives depended on it".
 
Anyway, I am sorry about being irritable earlier.

The reasons for why I tend to react like that sometimes is due to several interacting factors.

For one thing I am frustrated from feeling like I have usually received limited help for the last 8 years in trying to act as a buffer against out of control power-scaling, as I mentioned earlier.

And for the other, I am the type of autistic person who is obsessed with striving for truthful communication and factual accuracy, and also almost go from 0 to 100 in my emotional reactions. Hence, usually I am rather calm and reasonable, but I can quickly get very emotional about dogs or notice my stress levels first when they get too overwhelming to handle properly.
 
Antvasima said:
but from what I recall, Thor canonically holds back against his quite many 5-B level opponents, yes, but that is the reason why we describe him as doing so in the first place, rather than just saying "the writers and editors for Marvel Comics likely couldn't publish reasonably coherent stories in terms of power levels if their lives depended on it".
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Then he is not fighting at peak power and thus should not be rated as such, because he has no legitimate mechanism that causes his powers to fluctuate like Superman does. "Holding back" is a very poor justification to limit the character to that level given our current standards.
 
Antvasima said:
Anyway, I am sorry about being irritable earlier.

The reasons for why I tend to react like that sometimes is due to several interacting factors.

For one thing I am frustrated from feeling like I have usually received limited help for the last 8 years in trying to act as a buffer against out of control power-scaling, as I mentioned earlier.

And for the other, I am the type of autistic person who is obsessed with striving for truthful communication and factual accuracy, and also almost go from 0 to 100 in my emotional reactions. Hence, usually I am rather calm and reasonable, but I can quickly get very emotional about dogs or notice my stress levels first when they get too overwhelming to handle properly.
Click to expand...
That is understandable
 
KLOL506 said:
Then he is not fighting at peak power and thus should not be rated as such, because he has no legitimate mechanism that causes his powers to fluctuate like Superman does. "Holding back" is a very poor justification to limit the character to that level given our current standards.
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Well, in that case we would have to add footnotes to our pages for Thor, the Silver Surfer, and likely other characters, that they canonically tend to hold back against mortals in planetary settings, that Marvel Comics runs on "everybody can fight everybody", and that 5-B level characters should definitely not scale from them.

Here are the character profile pages that may be affected in this regard:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Antvasima/DPL#Marvel_Tier_5_and_3_overlaps

If somebody can come up with a coherent workable plan for us to properly solve this problem, it would be very appreciated.
 
Last edited:
Just to clarify, we definitely cannot only give Thor a straight "2-C, 2-A with the God-Blast" statistics, we have to include 3-C there as well, as it is extremely uncommon that he is portrayed at a 2-C scale of power.

Also, lots of other characters scale to 3-C from him.
 
Antvasima said:
Anyway, I am sorry about being irritable earlier.

The reasons for why I tend to react like that sometimes is due to several interacting factors.

For one thing I am frustrated from feeling like I have usually received limited help for the last 8 years in trying to act as a buffer against out of control power-scaling, as I mentioned earlier.

And for the other, I am the type of autistic person who is obsessed with striving for truthful communication and factual accuracy, and also almost go from 0 to 100 in my emotional reactions. Hence, usually I am rather calm and reasonable, but I can quickly get very emotional about dogs or notice my stress levels first when they get too overwhelming to handle properly.
Click to expand...
As an autistic person myself (which comes with awfully sensitive ears often leading to sensory overload), I understand completely.

Antvasima said:
Well, "2-C. 2-A with the God-Blast".
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Not once all those 6-10 2-A feats we listed for Thor are put in.
 
For Doctor Doom's low-end prep and it being buffed to 2-C at the low-end (since the high-end is 2-A), here is a list of his low-end prep and how most of it (if not all of it) scales to characters who will likely be 2-C if this CRT passes.

1. Doom possesses a small army of Doombots powered by an artificial emulation of the Power Cosmic comparable to the real thing. - Scales to 2-C Silver Surfer

2. Can cut through Hulk's skull with an adamantium chainsaw to perform brain surgery - A weird feat but one that would scale to Hulk if Hulk gets the 2-C buff

3. He can recreate the Destroyer by draining the Odinforce from a bunch of Asgardians. - Scales to 2-C Destroyer, supported by it initially stomping Thor and later matching him.

4. Can artificially emulate the Power Cosmic - Scales to 2-C Silver Surfer

Not to mention, he somewhat matched a pissed Thor for a while, withstood an assault from a robot Hulk infused with the Power Cosmic and took hits from Hulk and Sentry, so there is a case for his armor's normal durability going up to 2-C.
 
I just realised something, the universe isnt even accepted as infinitely sized on here???

Meaning damn near every High 3-A feat is either 4-A or just 3-A💀💀
 
So, how many of our High 3-A feats are with an infinitely sized universe?

NHTkenshin2 said:
  • Thor moves the world engine | 2-C
  • Hyperion tanks two universes | 2-C
  • Hulk rips the undying ones dimension | Low 2-C
  • two thors strength is comparable or superior to the big bang | High 3-A - Low 2-C
  • And shatters Yggdrasils root | 2-C
  • Thor Shakes the fabric of infinity | Low 2-C
  • Thor tanks an explosion that rivalled the Big Bang and destroyed the entire Black Galaxy, which is a universe made of biological matter / bioverse | 3-A, High 3-A or Low 2-C
  • Hulk causing earthquakes on infinite planets | High 3-A
  • Hulk having his power level measured as infinite | High 3-A
  • Beta Ray Bill and stardust shake the universe | High 3-A
  • Thor tanks the unbinding stone | possibly High 3-A
  • Grey Hulk moves a universe | High 3-A
  • Hulk destroys a universe fighting Onslaught | High 3-A
Click to expand...
 
  • Thor moves the world engine | 2-C | Thor #494 (1995)
  • Hyperion tanks two universes | 2-C | Avengers (2013) #4
  • Hulk rips the undying ones dimension | Low 2-C | The incredible Hulk Vol 1 #126
  • two thors strength is comparable or superior to the big bang | 3-A | Thor (1991) #438
  • And shatters Yggdrasils root | 2-C | Thor: Man of war
  • Thor Shakes the fabric of infinity | Low 2-C | Thor (1966) #432
  • Thor tanks an explosion that rivalled the Big Bang and destroyed the black galaxy | 3-A - High 3-A | Thor (1966) #424
  • Hulk causing earthquakes on infinite planets | High 3-A | dont know ngl
  • Hulk having his power level measured as infinite | High 3-A | Secret Wars II #8
  • Beta Ray Bill and stardust shake the universe | High 3-A | Stormbreaker: The saga of Beta Ray Bill #3 & #4
  • Thor tanks the unbinding stone | possibly High 3-A Low 2-C | Thor: The deviants saga #5
  • Hulk destroys a universe fighting Onslaught | High 3-A | Hulk: Grand Design - Madness #1
  • Hercules lifts the heavens | High 3-A | Incredible Hercules (2008) #121
Updated with sources
 
I don't know if this is useful, a feat of Thanos holding in his body [imgur.com/a/JrVlYVZ] an energy that consumed the universe [imgur.com/a/6UfPKkG]. After he releases it, everything is restored. Scans from Avengers Celestial Quest #8, but reading the entire comic may is needed for further context.
 
Eseseso said:
As an autistic person myself (which comes with awfully sensitive ears often leading to sensory overload), I understand completely.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the consideration. I also used to get easily overloaded by different types of sensory stimuli, and still have problems in this regard.
Eseseso said:
Not once all those 6-10 2-A feats we listed for Thor are put in.
Click to expand...
I don't think that we have any actual feats of this scale for base level Thor, and powerscaling is often very unreliable for Marvel Comics, as is stated in our rules for the verse.
 
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