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NOTE: STAFF-ONLY (FOR THE TIME BEING)
This is a long overdue thread, given the current dire state of the higher-tier Marvel profiles. Let's just dive into it already.
Introductio
Currently, a large portion of Marvel Comics's higher-abstract profiles are rated as 1-A (Outerverse level), for one reason or another. There are a considerable number of profiles that are assigned this rating (here is a noncomprehensive list of the Tier 1 Marvel entities in the wiki, a good portion of whom scale to this tier), but, ultimately, all of those profiles are considered to be 1-A via powerscaling to the feats attributed to the following characters:
One singular thought must be flowing through all the heads of those reading this right now; "what does that have to do with anything?".
To put it simply: absolutely none of those characters, with the sole exception of Oblivion, currently have or ever had 1-A statements or showings at any point in their history, and all the statements and justifications we use to rate them as such are completely out of context, and are nowhere near actually 1-A.
Of course, just claiming and blabbering without actually providing analysis and rebuttals on the scans presented hardly demonstrates one's ability to debate a point, so I will heed the mental requests you're all probably having and elaborate on this issue, one profile at a time.
The Living Tribunal
The judge of all multiverses and the manifestation of the whole of creation, who is meant to be at the top of the Abstract Hierarchy in Marvel...but what about his justifications?
You know we're off to a good start when, right off the bat, the very first justification scan is meaningless drivel about Alpha and Omega that wouldn't belong even on a Low 2-C's profile, let alone on the uppermost cosmic being who is the embodiment of an infinite-dimensional set of realities in a series as popular and important as Marvel. Even the part about him being the heart of all creation isn't to be taken at face value, considering that, as we have seen numerous times, the Tribunal's death has no significant effect on the multiverse's well-being - other than the creation of a chain-reaction in the imbalances between good and evil, solely due to the fact the Tribunal was the one who judged and dealt with said imbalances, and him not being there to judge them leading to a cumulative effect.
Overall, this isn't even a Tier 2 statement, let alone something that can be used as a justification for 1-A.
Sounds like a fine justification! Until we read the actual scan and realize that this is stated nowhere and is blatantly rewriting the actual affirmation. All that is actually stated is that the Tribunal is beyond "the realms of space and time". There is literally no choice of wording out there that could be vaguer or wider in meaning that they could have chosen, and the fact that the very next part of the sentence mentions "all the opposing realities", with Silver Surfer replying by bringing up the chaos within one single timeline shows that the context is no more than the Tribunal transcending the space and time within a single 4-D multiverse - this too belongs absolutely nowhere in a profile of this scale and accomplishes nothing in terms of justifying 1-A. At the very most, this is a High 2-A supporting statement, which, again, is irrelevant to a Tier 1 entity.
The Pre-Retcon Beyonder
Ah, the Beyonder. By far the most controversial character in all of Marvel Comics, especially with his numerous retcons and contradictory showings of power, and almost certainly the one people get the most heated about when debating. He is currently rated as "At least High 1-B, likely 1-A". Is his "likely 1-A" justified? Let's see. Spoiler alert; it isn't.
Right off the bat; extreme lack of common sense abound. Anyone who clicks each of the scans in question can see that, contextually, they are referring to "dimensions" in the sense of "universes", not in the sense of infinite higher dimensions. This literally couldn't be made clearer by the first scan, which includes the word "adjacent" - which means something that is parallel to something else, ie, a parallel/nearby dimension. Literally each and every one of these scans uses the exact same context, describing the Beyond Realm as a universe that transcends time and space throughout each of the known dimensions and worlds that compose the multiverse and are known. Never, ever is it implied that these are infinite higher dimensions. Whenever Marvel makes a reference to higher dimensions, they make it completely clear that is the intent. For example, the Beyonder being described as infinite-dimensional:
They reference the three basic dimensions and explain them to the audience before making the reference that he has an infinite number of those, among a plethora of other concepts that establish this in a higher-dimensional context.
Concluding this section; The Beyonder is yet another character currently rated at 1-A...that has no showings or statements that are actually 1-A in the franchise.
The Beyonders
A short bio before I go about the Beyonders. I legitimately understand those who believe the Beyonder is a 1-A character, and while I disagree and assert that he has absolutely no 1-A showings, I can see why some would think a character as powerful as him could be that high. The same with TLT.
However, when it comes to The Beyonders, I can not for the life of me fathom how them being 1-A was ever accepted in this wiki. I legitimately believe that 1-A Beyonders is the most massively inflated (to avoid the W-Word) rating to ever grace our profiles, beyond all reason. Before I further elaborate on that, let's tackle their...1-A "reasoning" (aside from killing TLT)
Until you read the literal very next panel in this scan, which explicitly states that this is strictly referring to only 4-Dimensional Space, even talking about how the Beyond Realm is lined up across a 4-D space-time barrier, and the context only focusing on it being outside of Universal Eternity.
I am baffled that this is in the profiles and that we pretend this to be supporting evidence for 1-A. That aside:
The Beyonders killing The Living Tribunal is an extreme, astronomical outlier that is completely beyond everything else they've ever done by an infinite number of infinities.
There, I said it.
Literally absolutely everything else The Beyonders have ever done is Tier 2. Killing the multiverse's Celestials one dimension at a time, Universal Eternity and Infinity (the text explicitly states they only killed universal versions of the abstracts, not the full entities all at once), being matched by The Infinity Gauntlet, their power being enough to materialize whole universes and timelines, the energy from their universe forming Cosmic Cubes...the Beyonders don't have one single feat that tops Tier 1. The fact that we're somehow willing to scale them to The Living Tribunal when we're so strict with DC and Marvel otherwise is baffling to me, and is the type of thing I never thought I'd see on serious profiles.
Downgrade them ASAP. The absolute most they can get is "At least 2-C, likely 2-A to far higher" via scaling to Molecule Man and Beyonder post-their retcons, which is far more consistent with the feats attached to their names.
And this includes downgrading Doctor Doom, Molecule Man and anyone who scales to them.
General Arguments
Overall, Oblivion is the only Marvel Abstract who has legitimate 1-A statements and showings; a void preceding the multiverse, the very existence of the concepts of shape and form, devoid of all time and space, that completely transcends a High 1-B multiverse to the point of it being fictional/illusory in comparison. This is a consistent description for Oblivion's true-self.
Now people barge in coming at me, saying TLT, Beyonder and etc. all receive scaling from Oblivion. Let's dismantle those claims one at a time:
"The Beyonder and Molecule Man are both described as being the mightiest beings in all of existence during their epic clash, that means they receive powerscaling from Oblivion!"
Oh yes then. I guess Multi-Eternity also receives powerscaling from Oblivion and The Tribunal because he was stated to be the most powerful entity in the whole multiverse by Dormammu as well.
And because he was stated to be the embodiment of everyone, everything, and all levels of creation and existence, which would mean TLT is just a figment of him:
Out of context statements are hilarious. Excluding the fact that Oblivion completely transcends existence and the multiverse as a whole and those concepts are illusory puppets to him, meaning he wouldn't even be a part of the "existence" in question, we can't just ignore the context and take the statement at absolute face-value, ignoring everything else in the storyline. Oblivion doesn't even appear in Secret Wars. We're shown nearly all the Multiversal Abstracts, including Multi-Eternity and the Full Tribunal, in a cosmic meeting. All of them bow down to Molecule Ma. Oblivion isn't a part of the comparison
Here, once more. It is stated that MM is the most powerful entity of the multiverse (note that the Beyonder, a being of equal or slightly superior power to MM isn't a part of the comparison because he resides outside the multiverse - the same logic applies to Oblivion, except on an even higher scale). As comparison, we're shown pictures of Chaos, Order, The Tribunal and Multi-Eternity, who are treated as the measuring sticks for Owen. Oblivion literally never made a single appearance in the storyline. He is completely exempt from the statement just like him and TLT are exempt from the aforementioned claims about Multi-Eternity because the context and storyline didn't include them.
"Oblivion is just one of the four cosmic entities alongside Multi-Eternity, Infinity and Death. He is bound to the law and authority of the Tribunal, and is his inferior!"
First of all, the first part of this claim is false and our profiles don't even use it. The Chaos King is stated by Eternity itself to be its equal opposite, and The Chaos King is just an infinitesimal avatar of the true bounds of Oblivion. Multi-Eternity and Infinity are both infinitely inferior to Oblivion; Even the gap between the physical multiverse and the edge of the nonexistential void that is Oblivion is stated to transcend Eternity and Infinity. The actual void is infinitely greater.
Oblivion is never stated in the comics to be an entity bound to the authority of the Tribunal and never interacts with the original entity. This claim originates from a secondary-canon handbook. It's completely unsubstantiated by the actual work. Whereas the Tribunal represents the totality of the multiverse and reality, Oblivion transcends the multiverse and all its concepts altogether and is far older than the Tribunal (who is the embodiment of one of the latest iterations of the cosmos; as we've seen before with the whole First Firmament storyline, there have been many multiverses, and The Living Tribunal has only existed, and only represents the sum totality of the newer multiverses). It makes absolutely zero sense for him to be inferior to the Tribunal, and the actual work outweighs a secondary-canon handbook that also claims Oblivion is bound by time (which he obviously isn't).
The only direct statement comparing the two within the work compares the New Tribunal to Oblivion, stating that Oblivion is the only entity in creation to be able to survive a multiversal crisis that can claim the lives of Eternity, Death, Infinity and the Tribunal. However, since the old hierarchy is meaningless by then, this is just for the sake of compilation.
Conclusion
Our 1-A Marvel profiles suffer from severe issues with justification and tiering - every single character who is currently scaled to 1-A, with the sole exception of Oblivion, will need to receive a downgrade back to High 1-B. Considering the fact that the Tribunal and the Beyonder are the ones that scale to everyone else, we will just need to:
This is a long overdue thread, given the current dire state of the higher-tier Marvel profiles. Let's just dive into it already.
Introductio
Currently, a large portion of Marvel Comics's higher-abstract profiles are rated as 1-A (Outerverse level), for one reason or another. There are a considerable number of profiles that are assigned this rating (here is a noncomprehensive list of the Tier 1 Marvel entities in the wiki, a good portion of whom scale to this tier), but, ultimately, all of those profiles are considered to be 1-A via powerscaling to the feats attributed to the following characters:
One singular thought must be flowing through all the heads of those reading this right now; "what does that have to do with anything?".
To put it simply: absolutely none of those characters, with the sole exception of Oblivion, currently have or ever had 1-A statements or showings at any point in their history, and all the statements and justifications we use to rate them as such are completely out of context, and are nowhere near actually 1-A.
Of course, just claiming and blabbering without actually providing analysis and rebuttals on the scans presented hardly demonstrates one's ability to debate a point, so I will heed the mental requests you're all probably having and elaborate on this issue, one profile at a time.
The Living Tribunal
The judge of all multiverses and the manifestation of the whole of creation, who is meant to be at the top of the Abstract Hierarchy in Marvel...but what about his justifications?
You know we're off to a good start when, right off the bat, the very first justification scan is meaningless drivel about Alpha and Omega that wouldn't belong even on a Low 2-C's profile, let alone on the uppermost cosmic being who is the embodiment of an infinite-dimensional set of realities in a series as popular and important as Marvel. Even the part about him being the heart of all creation isn't to be taken at face value, considering that, as we have seen numerous times, the Tribunal's death has no significant effect on the multiverse's well-being - other than the creation of a chain-reaction in the imbalances between good and evil, solely due to the fact the Tribunal was the one who judged and dealt with said imbalances, and him not being there to judge them leading to a cumulative effect.
Overall, this isn't even a Tier 2 statement, let alone something that can be used as a justification for 1-A.
Sounds like a fine justification! Until we read the actual scan and realize that this is stated nowhere and is blatantly rewriting the actual affirmation. All that is actually stated is that the Tribunal is beyond "the realms of space and time". There is literally no choice of wording out there that could be vaguer or wider in meaning that they could have chosen, and the fact that the very next part of the sentence mentions "all the opposing realities", with Silver Surfer replying by bringing up the chaos within one single timeline shows that the context is no more than the Tribunal transcending the space and time within a single 4-D multiverse - this too belongs absolutely nowhere in a profile of this scale and accomplishes nothing in terms of justifying 1-A. At the very most, this is a High 2-A supporting statement, which, again, is irrelevant to a Tier 1 entity.
- Rules over all the conceptual dualities in the multiverse, existing within them while also transcending them
- 1. This is yet another case of rewriting the scan and rewording the character statements to make them suit the proposed rating more. Concepts are, case in point, mentioned absolutely nowhere in this scene or in the storyline. We only have vague general statements, just like the previous scan that claimed it was stated he transcended the concepts themselves. We need to stop embellishing evidence like we always do for nearly every single character under those tiers. Just present it the way it is written.
- 2. The first scan is an ephemeral statement, from the Silver Surfer, who states that he realized "all the infinite dualities from Galactus in his war against the In-Betweener". That's literally all there is to it. No further elaboration or context is provided here, so I trust everyone to have some common sense in this regard and realize this is utterly unusable for absolutely anything. There is zero context on what these dualities are; if anything, this is presented as fancy wording for the contrast in point of views between both sides of the war, and the senseless fighting that results.
- 3. In terms of definition, the word "duality" does not merely extend to the mathematical definition that our Transduality page is based off of - it also refers to any mere difference in two point of views, two polar opposites. For example; Good and Evil in many religions represent a duality, for they are opposites, standing in contrast to each other. The Living Tribunal's very job is to safeguard the mystical balance between good and evil throughout the multiverse, being more than willing to obliterate universes to prevent the balance from becoming unstable. Therefore, contextually, whenever the Tribunal states he "judges the dualities", it is far, FAR more likely that he is referring to this definition of duality. On that account, all of those scans are meaningless in terms of Tiering.
- 4. Most importantly, even taking them to refer to the conceptual dualities, which they aren't - there are many types of Transduality in our system, including ones where the characters are simply superior to a dual system within a certain scope of reality. It requires a much more elaborate and detailed explanation than the Tribunal's vaguest-in-all-fiction scans to establish 1-A levels of Transduality, so, all in all, literally nothing about those scans is applicable as far as getting anything remotely above High 1-B goes.
The Pre-Retcon Beyonder
Ah, the Beyonder. By far the most controversial character in all of Marvel Comics, especially with his numerous retcons and contradictory showings of power, and almost certainly the one people get the most heated about when debating. He is currently rated as "At least High 1-B, likely 1-A". Is his "likely 1-A" justified? Let's see. Spoiler alert; it isn't.
Right off the bat; extreme lack of common sense abound. Anyone who clicks each of the scans in question can see that, contextually, they are referring to "dimensions" in the sense of "universes", not in the sense of infinite higher dimensions. This literally couldn't be made clearer by the first scan, which includes the word "adjacent" - which means something that is parallel to something else, ie, a parallel/nearby dimension. Literally each and every one of these scans uses the exact same context, describing the Beyond Realm as a universe that transcends time and space throughout each of the known dimensions and worlds that compose the multiverse and are known. Never, ever is it implied that these are infinite higher dimensions. Whenever Marvel makes a reference to higher dimensions, they make it completely clear that is the intent. For example, the Beyonder being described as infinite-dimensional:
They reference the three basic dimensions and explain them to the audience before making the reference that he has an infinite number of those, among a plethora of other concepts that establish this in a higher-dimensional context.
- The classic explanation of the Multiverse.
- The one time The Tribunal, Eternity, Chaos and Order hung out in a 16-dimensional void beyond space and time.
- He existed beyond the Marvel multiverse. He was stated to be the mightiest being in all of existence.
Concluding this section; The Beyonder is yet another character currently rated at 1-A...that has no showings or statements that are actually 1-A in the franchise.
The Beyonders
A short bio before I go about the Beyonders. I legitimately understand those who believe the Beyonder is a 1-A character, and while I disagree and assert that he has absolutely no 1-A showings, I can see why some would think a character as powerful as him could be that high. The same with TLT.
However, when it comes to The Beyonders, I can not for the life of me fathom how them being 1-A was ever accepted in this wiki. I legitimately believe that 1-A Beyonders is the most massively inflated (to avoid the W-Word) rating to ever grace our profiles, beyond all reason. Before I further elaborate on that, let's tackle their...1-A "reasoning" (aside from killing TLT)
- "They reside in the Beyond Realm, a featureless, incomprehensible and unknowable level of reality beyond all there is, and embody the Outside/Beyond."
Until you read the literal very next panel in this scan, which explicitly states that this is strictly referring to only 4-Dimensional Space, even talking about how the Beyond Realm is lined up across a 4-D space-time barrier, and the context only focusing on it being outside of Universal Eternity.
I am baffled that this is in the profiles and that we pretend this to be supporting evidence for 1-A. That aside:
The Beyonders killing The Living Tribunal is an extreme, astronomical outlier that is completely beyond everything else they've ever done by an infinite number of infinities.
There, I said it.
Literally absolutely everything else The Beyonders have ever done is Tier 2. Killing the multiverse's Celestials one dimension at a time, Universal Eternity and Infinity (the text explicitly states they only killed universal versions of the abstracts, not the full entities all at once), being matched by The Infinity Gauntlet, their power being enough to materialize whole universes and timelines, the energy from their universe forming Cosmic Cubes...the Beyonders don't have one single feat that tops Tier 1. The fact that we're somehow willing to scale them to The Living Tribunal when we're so strict with DC and Marvel otherwise is baffling to me, and is the type of thing I never thought I'd see on serious profiles.
Downgrade them ASAP. The absolute most they can get is "At least 2-C, likely 2-A to far higher" via scaling to Molecule Man and Beyonder post-their retcons, which is far more consistent with the feats attached to their names.
And this includes downgrading Doctor Doom, Molecule Man and anyone who scales to them.
General Arguments
Overall, Oblivion is the only Marvel Abstract who has legitimate 1-A statements and showings; a void preceding the multiverse, the very existence of the concepts of shape and form, devoid of all time and space, that completely transcends a High 1-B multiverse to the point of it being fictional/illusory in comparison. This is a consistent description for Oblivion's true-self.
Now people barge in coming at me, saying TLT, Beyonder and etc. all receive scaling from Oblivion. Let's dismantle those claims one at a time:
"The Beyonder and Molecule Man are both described as being the mightiest beings in all of existence during their epic clash, that means they receive powerscaling from Oblivion!"
Oh yes then. I guess Multi-Eternity also receives powerscaling from Oblivion and The Tribunal because he was stated to be the most powerful entity in the whole multiverse by Dormammu as well.
And because he was stated to be the embodiment of everyone, everything, and all levels of creation and existence, which would mean TLT is just a figment of him:
Out of context statements are hilarious. Excluding the fact that Oblivion completely transcends existence and the multiverse as a whole and those concepts are illusory puppets to him, meaning he wouldn't even be a part of the "existence" in question, we can't just ignore the context and take the statement at absolute face-value, ignoring everything else in the storyline. Oblivion doesn't even appear in Secret Wars. We're shown nearly all the Multiversal Abstracts, including Multi-Eternity and the Full Tribunal, in a cosmic meeting. All of them bow down to Molecule Ma. Oblivion isn't a part of the comparison
Here, once more. It is stated that MM is the most powerful entity of the multiverse (note that the Beyonder, a being of equal or slightly superior power to MM isn't a part of the comparison because he resides outside the multiverse - the same logic applies to Oblivion, except on an even higher scale). As comparison, we're shown pictures of Chaos, Order, The Tribunal and Multi-Eternity, who are treated as the measuring sticks for Owen. Oblivion literally never made a single appearance in the storyline. He is completely exempt from the statement just like him and TLT are exempt from the aforementioned claims about Multi-Eternity because the context and storyline didn't include them.
"Oblivion is just one of the four cosmic entities alongside Multi-Eternity, Infinity and Death. He is bound to the law and authority of the Tribunal, and is his inferior!"
First of all, the first part of this claim is false and our profiles don't even use it. The Chaos King is stated by Eternity itself to be its equal opposite, and The Chaos King is just an infinitesimal avatar of the true bounds of Oblivion. Multi-Eternity and Infinity are both infinitely inferior to Oblivion; Even the gap between the physical multiverse and the edge of the nonexistential void that is Oblivion is stated to transcend Eternity and Infinity. The actual void is infinitely greater.
Oblivion is never stated in the comics to be an entity bound to the authority of the Tribunal and never interacts with the original entity. This claim originates from a secondary-canon handbook. It's completely unsubstantiated by the actual work. Whereas the Tribunal represents the totality of the multiverse and reality, Oblivion transcends the multiverse and all its concepts altogether and is far older than the Tribunal (who is the embodiment of one of the latest iterations of the cosmos; as we've seen before with the whole First Firmament storyline, there have been many multiverses, and The Living Tribunal has only existed, and only represents the sum totality of the newer multiverses). It makes absolutely zero sense for him to be inferior to the Tribunal, and the actual work outweighs a secondary-canon handbook that also claims Oblivion is bound by time (which he obviously isn't).
The only direct statement comparing the two within the work compares the New Tribunal to Oblivion, stating that Oblivion is the only entity in creation to be able to survive a multiversal crisis that can claim the lives of Eternity, Death, Infinity and the Tribunal. However, since the old hierarchy is meaningless by then, this is just for the sake of compilation.
Conclusion
Our 1-A Marvel profiles suffer from severe issues with justification and tiering - every single character who is currently scaled to 1-A, with the sole exception of Oblivion, will need to receive a downgrade back to High 1-B. Considering the fact that the Tribunal and the Beyonder are the ones that scale to everyone else, we will just need to:
- Revert the Tribunal back to High 1-B via powerscaling to Eternity, Infinity and Death
- Revert the Beyonder back to a definite High 1-B powerscaling from the statements currently listed in his "At least High 1-B" key, removing the "likely 1-A" altogether
- Downgrade the Beyonders to "At least 2-C, likely 2-A" via powerscaling to Post-Retcon Beyonder and Molecule Man's feats, as I argued above.
