Some changes to ‘Powerscaling rules for Marvel and DC Comics’

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Not really changing any of the rules, but changing some misleading claims on the page.

To be brief, some of the supposed “inconsistencies” listed on Powerscaling rules for Marvel and DC Comics are just examples of stuff taken out of context.

Spider-Man has beaten the Puma, who could allegedly kill the Beyonder when in perfect harmony with the universe, which scales to Aunt May according to the above "logic" (High 1-B Aunt May).

The Puma was only powerful to kill the Beyonder through his ability to gain a conditional power increase by achieving a state of harmonious enlightenment with the universe.

This isn’t an example of inconsistent powerscaling, this is an example of a character briefly being amplified beyond their standard level. When not in harmony with the universe, it’s acknowledged the Puma can’t do anything to the Beyonder.

Suffice to say, the Puma achieving High Hyperversal power via a situational amp wouldn’t randomly result in High 1-B Aunt May.

Wonder Woman has been significantly damaged by regular bullets, and is more powerful than Wonder Girl (Cassandra Sandsmark), who drew blood from Superboy-Prime with a kick, who overpowered The Darkest Knight, who killed Perpetua, one of The Hands of Creation (Low 1-C regular bullets).

• (Pre-Flashpoint) Wonder Woman was weak to piercing damage. Her page directly acknowledges this.
• Superboy-Prime’s power levels canonically fluctuate, making him a poor example to use unless Wonder Girl fought him at the height of his power.

If we need replacement examples we can use Spider-Man defeating Firelord, or Deathstroke soloing most of the JLA.

 

[Eseseso]

Looks good.

 

[SYPHe5D]

I agree.

 

[LordTracer]

I agree wholeheartedly, and honestly, I don’t think these are the only terrible examples on the page.

Aunt May is not significantly weaker than J. Jonah Jameson, who has punched Spider-Man bloody on his own, who is physically superior to the Black Panther, who beat the Tiger God and used it to defeat Logos, who killed The Living Tribunal (High 1-A Aunt May).

Aunt May isn’t significantly weaker than JJJ according to who, exactly? And I’m fairly certain the Black Panther and Tiger God stuff is out of context.

The Hulk was choked unconscious by an ordinary python but also harmed Dormammu after the latter beat Multi-Eternity and stole his power (High 1-A snake).

Dormammu was weakened because he’d gotten his power drained by Umar, and he’d bodied Hulk earlier in the same run. Out of context.

Thor has been knocked out from a shot by a handgun but also harmed the Chaos King (High 1-A handgun).

I mean, just look at Thor’s page, and you can see why this doesn’t work.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I agree with both Maverick and Tracer

Deathstroke soloing most of the JLA

It's been a while since I read that fight but weren't they all holding back because they wanted info outta him? Like the fight is pretty stupid, yeah, but I'm unsure if it's an outlier

 

[LordTracer]

It's been a while since I read that fight but weren't they all holding back because they wanted info outta him? Like the fight is pretty stupid, yeah, but I'm unsure if it's an outlier

One could also argue that it’s less of an outlier and more of Deathstroke being “skill gg”, although I’ve also not read the fight in a while so I could be forgetting something

 

[Deagonx]

It's been a while since I read that fight but weren't they all holding back because they wanted info outta him?

I don't remember that being the case. He just sorta trounced them somehow. I believe at the end he visually predicted Flash's trajectory and stuck his katana out where Flash was headed, which really really shouldn't have worked, but it did. One of the worst Slade "rule of cool" passes I can remember.

 

[Excellence616]

I agree

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

I agree with Maverick and Tracer as well. In addition, I have a couple other complaints.

Thor has been knocked out from a shot by a handgun but also harmed the Chaos King (High 1-A handgun).

As shown in Chaos War #1, Skyfather Hercules had amplified all the other heroes, so this isn't a base Thor. On top of that, I recall scans of Thor getting exponential amps from energy he absorbs, so it could probably be argued that he got an especially large amp.

who is physically superior to the Black Panther, who beat the Tiger God and used it to defeat Logos, who killed The Living Tribunal (High 1-A Aunt May)

So, this is sort of odd. The "fight" between Black Panther and the Tiger God is completely off-panel, we just see an implication they'll fight in Ultimates 2 #9, and then in the next issue they're merged. What actually went down is hard to say, so I wouldn't recommend using it as one of the main examples.
Plus, as explained in Ultimates 2 #2 and #3, during this time, the cosmic balance is still being formed, what was the balance before is over, and what will be is yet to become, and due to this, Chaos and Order could kill the Tribunal. So, there probably is some cosmic wackiness affecting events at this time.

Also, I think just like any other comics page, every instance mentioned should have scans and citations so it's easy for people to check what's being talked about. Especially for a page so important that it's mentioned in the notes of every Marvel and DC page on the wiki afaik. It's also sort of weird to me how DC has one example mentioned, while Marvel has five, despite DC (apparently) being the more inconsistent verse to the point where their cosmology had to be split depending on the writer. I'd expect DC to have as many (or more) examples if that was the case.

 

[Qawsedf234]

It's been a while since I read that fight but weren't they all holding back because they wanted info outta him? Like the fight is pretty stupid, yeah, but I'm unsure if it's an outlier

Holding back doesn't work because he physically beat most of them into unconscious and it doesn't explain how he overpowered GL, beat Hawkman or stabbed the Flash.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

stabbed the Flash

He stabbed the flash via predicting his movements and I doubt Wally was moving at top speed

overpowered GL

He didn't really "overpower" Kyle per day, but he tried to do so by matching his will or something.

Pretty stupid fight tho, whole story was glazing Slade for some reason.

 

[Qawsedf234]

He stabbed the flash via predicting his movements and I doubt Wally was moving at top speed

So here's the thing, that explanation doesn't work in my view.

Why?

Because you're saying the character with multiple Picosecond reaction statements, who can talk in nanoseconds and will without his control speed himself up something dangerous happens to him and according to Batman one of his canon go to moves is to vibrate the second something touches him without his knowledge. Slade stabbed the Flash by detonating C5 explosives and literally putting his sword behind him which the Flash ran into.

That is a clear example of just PIS. Which is fine, it can happen to anyone (Superman is another example). But the above is what the page is talking about.

He didn't really "overpower" Kyle per day, but he tried to do so by matching his will or something.

He basically did. He catches his punch, breaks multiple fingers and then stalemates Kyle's willpower for a prolonged period of time.

 

[Cropfist]

Catwoman beating the Flash family might be a better example

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Catwoman beating the Flash family might be a better example

Tbf this one is the Flash family getting possessed by Ivy, who didn't really have good control over the powers of her victims.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Why is every ******* example missing context lol

 

[Antvasima]

Not really changing any of the rules, but changing some misleading claims on the page.

To be brief, some of the supposed “inconsistencies” listed on Powerscaling rules for Marvel and DC Comics are just examples of stuff taken out of context.

The Puma was only powerful to kill the Beyonder through his ability to gain a conditional power increase by achieving a state of harmonious enlightenment with the universe.

This isn’t an example of inconsistent powerscaling, this is an example of a character briefly being amplified beyond their standard level. When not in harmony with the universe, it’s acknowledged the Puma can’t do anything to the Beyonder.

Suffice to say, the Puma achieving High Hyperversal power via a situational amp wouldn’t randomly result in High 1-B Aunt May.

This seems perfectly fine, yes.

• (Pre-Flashpoint) Wonder Woman was weak to piercing damage. Her page directly acknowledges this.
• Superboy-Prime’s power levels canonically fluctuate, making him a poor example to use unless Wonder Girl fought him at the height of his power.

That image did not feature the pre-Flashpoint Wonder Woman, and her weakness does not make any sense in the first place, and can you please show where within canon that it was stated that Superboy Prime's power constantly fluctuates, rather than that the writers simply do not keep him consistent in that regard?

If we need replacement examples we can use Spider-Man defeating Firelord, or Deathstroke soloing most of the JLA.

I do not mind if we use those examples as part of scaling chains.

 

[Antvasima]

Aunt May isn’t significantly weaker than JJJ according to who, exactly? And I’m fairly certain the Black Panther and Tiger God stuff is out of context.

They are both supposed to be regular older people. The difference between May and Jonah should not exceed 100% or so.

Dormammu was weakened because he’d gotten his power drained by Umar, and he’d bodied Hulk earlier in the same run. Out of context.

No. None of that was remotely implied or mentioned within the story where he was hurt by Cyclops, and the Hulk legitimately harmed him later in the same story. It is not out of context, just poor writing.

I mean, just look at Thor’s page, and you can see why this doesn’t work.

It was referring to regular Thor harming the Chaos King with his lightning, and also being skgnificantly harmed and knocked out by a regular handgun.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

her weakness does not make any sense in the first place

Yes, but we still have to acknowledge it’s canonically a thing.

and can you please show where within canon that it was stated that Superboy Prime's power constantly fluctuates, rather than that the writers simply do not keep him consistent in that regard?

His “Varies” rating is explained on his profile.

 

[Antvasima]

It's been a while since I read that fight but weren't they all holding back because they wanted info outta him? Like the fight is pretty stupid, yeah, but I'm unsure if it's an outlier

No they did not. As I keep trying to explain, and several writers and editors have stated outright, but many members here keep rationalising and denying anyway, the Marvel Comics and DC Comics narratives do not run on powerscaling, the writers mostly do not care, and the power levels are all over the place.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Maverick and Tracer as well. In addition, I have a couple other complaints.

As shown in Chaos War #1, Skyfather Hercules had amplified all the other heroes, so this isn't a base Thor. On top of that, I recall scans of Thor getting exponential amps from energy he absorbs, so it could probably be argued that he got an especially large amp.

You scan does not work, but if this is genuinely accurate, I do not mind using another example.

So, this is sort of odd. The "fight" between Black Panther and the Tiger God is completely off-panel, we just see an implication they'll fight in Ultimates 2 #9, and then in the next issue they're merged. What actually went down is hard to say, so I wouldn't recommend using it as one of the main examples.
Plus, as explained in Ultimates 2 #2 and #3, during this time, the cosmic balance is still being formed, what was the balance before is over, and what will be is yet to become, and due to this, Chaos and Order could kill the Tribunal. So, there probably is some cosmic wackiness affecting events at this time.

I think that it is a legitimate feat that follows Marvel Comics' explicitly stated (over and over and over and over), and yet somehow still denied by much of its fandom, narrative conventions of not caring at all about consistent power-scaling.

Also, I think just like any other comics page, every instance mentioned should have scans and citations so it's easy for people to check what's being talked about. Especially for a page so important that it's mentioned in the notes of every Marvel and DC page on the wiki afaik. It's also sort of weird to me how DC has one example mentioned, while Marvel has five, despite DC (apparently) being the more inconsistent verse to the point where their cosmology had to be split depending on the writer. I'd expect DC to have as many (or more) examples if that was the case.

I would greatly appreciate help with finding the exact issue references, as I have very limited time available.

 

[Antvasima]

Tbf this one is the Flash family getting possessed by Ivy, who didn't really have good control over the powers of her victims.

Which should not matter at all considering the sheer difference in speed and power level between Catwoman and the Flash characters.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but we still have to acknowledge it’s canonically a thing.

It was a rationalisation of sharp surfaces requiring less force behind them to cause damage, not an actual official Kryptonite-style weakness, as far as I recall, and this was not the post-Crisis incarnation.

His “Varies” rating is explained on his profile.

For the sake of efficiency in this discussion, I would greatly appreciate links to to the official canon sources that explicitly state SBP's variable power level. Our own interpretation/rationalisation of irreconcilable inconsistencies is not the same thing.

 

[LordTracer]

They are both supposed to be regular older people. The difference between May and Jonah should not exceed 100% or so.

“should not” based on what? You can’t just make a claim like this without actual evidence showing it.

None of that was remotely implied or mentioned within the story where he was hurt by Cyclops

Not the same story, not the example I’m talking about, and not even mentioned on the page.

and the Hulk legitimately harmed him later in the same story.

If you’re referring to him clapping Dormammu’s head, then yes, that’s after Umar drained essentually all of his power (Defenders #5). So yeah, it’s out of context.

 

[Deagonx]

I mean, as far as Aunt May is concerned that chain of logic can just remove her and start at JJJ, leading to "High 1-A JJJ."

 

[Qawsedf234]

Wonder Woman, and her weakness does not make any sense in the first place

I mean, I can't think of a single time Post-Crisis where a sharp object didnt hurt Wonder Woman. She's been shot by a regular handgun and injured two or three times before and Batman even directly said a bullet would be able to kill her before.

but many members here keep rationalising and denying anyway, the Marvel Comics and DC Comics narratives do not run on powerscaling, the writers mostly do not care,

They don't and most stories don't run on pure power scaling (see Deathstroke vs Wonder Woman from the 1992 WW comic special), but in a lot of the more egregious examples there's usually context behind it.

Which is what this thread is proposing. That the examples be changed to issues that have no mitigating context. Like when Gotham blamed Wonder Woman into Batman so hard it knocked her out but he was still conscious.

 

[Deagonx]

Gotham blamed Wonder Woman into Batman so hard it knocked her out but he was still conscious.

I'm a bit confused about what this sentence is trying to say

 

[LordTracer]

It was a rationalisation of sharp surfaces requiring less force behind them to cause damage, not an actual official Kryptonite-style weakness, as far as I recall, and this was not the post-Crisis incarnation.

It is Post-Crisis Wonder Woman. That scan is from Wonder Woman Secret Files and Origins #1, which came out in 1998.

 

[Antvasima]

“should not” based on what? You can’t just make a claim like this without actual evidence showing it.

Since when is either Jonah or May supposed to be superhumans? By real world metrics that would be the standard, not that Jonah eclipses May by trillions of times.

Not the same story, not the example I’m talking about, and not even mentioned on the page.

Please explain exactly what you mean then.

If you’re referring to him clapping Dormammu’s head, then yes, that’s after Umar drained essentually all of his power (Defenders #5). So yeah, it’s out of context.

Umar had only drained a part of his power at that point as far as I recall.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

It was a rationalisation of sharp surfaces requiring less force behind them to cause damage, not an actual official Kryptonite-style weakness, as far as I recall, and this was not the post-Crisis incarnation.

The scan is from Wonder Woman Secret Files and Origins #1, a 1998 story. Definitely Post-Crisis.

For the sake of efficiency in this discussion, I would greatly appreciate links to to the official canon sources that explicitly state SBP's variable power level. Our own interpretation/rationalisation of irreconcilable inconsistencies is not the same thing.

 

[Antvasima]

I mean, I can't think of a single time Post-Crisis where a sharp object didnt hurt Wonder Woman. She's been shot by a regular handgun and injured two or three times before and Batman even directly said a bullet would be able to kill her before.

But the only official explanation of this idiocy that I remember reading was during John Byrne's run of her comic book, and it went the way I described above.

They don't and most stories don't run on pure power scaling (see Deathstroke vs Wonder Woman from the 1992 WW comic special), but in a lot of the more egregious examples there's usually context behind it.

Which is what this thread is proposing. That the examples be changed to issues that have no mitigating context. Like when Gotham blamed Wonder Woman into Batman so hard it knocked her out but he was still conscious.

I do not mind improving on a part of the examples in our scaling-chains, but most of them seem fine to keep, and I want us to find replacements rather than dismantle the examples.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm a bit confused about what this sentence is trying to say

I wrote blamed rather than slammed. In Batman 2016 issue 5 or 6 the villain Gotham slammed Wonder Woman into Batman. Which left her KO'ed but Batman still awake.

 

[Deagonx]

Ironically she was very bullet proof in Injustice.

 

[Antvasima]

It is Post-Crisis Wonder Woman. That scan is from Wonder Woman Secret Files and Origins #1, which came out in 1998.

What? I recall getting the Wonder Woman scan where she is injured by bullets from a much more recent appearance than that, that occurred several years after Flashpoint.

 

[Deagonx]

What? I recall getting the Wonder Woman scan where she is injured by bullets from a much more recent appearance than that, that occurred several years after Flashpoint.

She was also shot with a gun and injured in Wonder Woman (1987) #143, which came out in 1999

 

[Antvasima]

Didn't that refer to Superboy fighting Monarch and being explicitly depowered with a younger body afterwards? It was not stated that his power fluctuates extremely with his rage in that scan as far as I can see.

 

[Antvasima]

Ironically she was very bullet proof in Injustice.

Yes, and that version seemed to be far less powerful in terms of feats.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But the only official explanation of this idiocy that I remember reading was during John Byrne's run of her comic book, and it went the way I described above.

Ant, she legitimately never showed any durability feats suggesting that. In Post-Crisis every time she's hit by an arrow, bullet or sword she gets hurt. They even tried to retroactively explain it with the secret files.

I want us to find replacements rather than dismantle the examples.

If the examples don't count they shouldn't be used.

 

[Deidalius]

I agree with OP.

 

[LordTracer]

Since when is either Jonah or May supposed to be superhumans? By real world metrics that would be the standard, not that Jonah eclipses May by trillions of times.

I didn’t say either of them was a superhuman. I said there’s no evidence to suggest they’re in any way comparable, as you’re suggesting. This isn’t the real world we’re talking about, it’s Marvel Comics. You can’t assume characters are comparable without actual proof.

Umar had only drained a part of his power at that point as far as I recall.

”So focused on the sorcerer, you didn’t realize it was even happening. Not only stole away Eternity’s power, but I pretty much sucked out the rest of yours, too.”

It‘s blatantly stated that she drained the majority of Dormammu’s power while he was fighting Doctor Strange, which is why Hulk was able to come in and clap his head.

 

[Deagonx]

Eh, I think two older adults being relatively comparable is not as far fetched an assumption as you're making it out to be. I'd expect Jonah to be stronger on account of being a man, but not that much more.