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Nope but i'm fine with the downgrade because i want to see 2-A beyonders and high 1-B TLT.
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Marvel Comics: Revising the Cosmic Hierarchy
- Thread starter Kepekley23
- Start date
- Status
- 19,520
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Pretty aure High 1-B Beyonders where accepted.
- 818
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Oh didnt know that. I havent read all things in this thread.
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I need to read up more on cosmic Marvel stories.
>Don't pull a loaded question on me. You have yet to prove he is 1-A to begin with. It doesn't contradict it because this quote, and other quotes, never indicated him to be 1-A in the first place.
Saying that you exist beyond the realms (I.e. the conceptual extents). the conceptual extent) of space and time, concepts that encompass a high 1-B multiverse, isn't indication of being 1-A?
That sounds dumb to me.
>Transduality
Type 2 (False General Transduality): Being qualitatively beyond and superior to the nature of all dual systems and concepts within the scope of an entire level of reality. Any non 1-A (Outerverse level) characters who transcend duality at a basic level would also qualify for this level, as space and time can be thought of as dual concepts, as well as existing within/outside spatio-temporal dimensionality The Living Tribunal is explicitly stated to be the multiverse itself taken form. He embodies the multiverse to an extent greater than Eternity and Infinity, in the sense that he embodies Time, Space, Order, Chaos and Death, while both Eternity and Infinity only embody time and space, respectively.
Absolutely none of the quotes provided so far breach Type 2 Transduality. The following statement:
"The Living Tribunal transcends the duality of space and time on a High 1-B multiverse" Fits under Type 2, as it is still limited to the scope of the whole of the multiverse.
And who says that the multiverse cannot have dimensionless or beyond-dimensional components to it, that the Living Tribunal encompasses (since he predates and transcends it)?
Hell, even by your standards, whose to say that the relationship between Eternity (High 1-B) and the Living Tribunal isn't the same as that of the Chaos King and Oblivion, in that Eternity is only an insignificant aspect of the Living Tribunal?
Saying that a character is still "only limited to the concepts of the multiverse" mean nothing in and of itself, when multiverses can possess transcendent realms or attributes befitting a 1-A (not to mention that those concepts that the Living Tribunal are supposedly ultimately still "limited" to include Cantorian set theory and more than likely its "set of all sets").
>This is completely exaggerating and embellishing the quote.
"Fathom" is synonymous to "understand". Therefore, "unfathomable" is something that can't be understood. All the quote says is that Eternity is unable to understand the Tribunal's motives, not that he can't even begin to possibly understand the very nature of the Tribunal.
You yourself stated that Eternity is one of the abstracts that make up the Tribunal, so the fact that Eternity simply cannot understand the Living Tribunal's motives is telling in and of itself.
>Evidence?
You yourself admitted this. But I'll still look for the evidence if you want it so much.
>Eternity and Infinity are embodiments of time and space throughout the multiverse. Other aspects are beyond them.
Meanwhile, The Tribunal is the embodiment of absolutely everything in the multiverse. He is the fusion of all abstracts.
What are the other aspects that are beyond space (Infinity) and time (Eternity), wonder?
However, it isn't relevant anyway. The Living Tribunal has been clearly and consistently portrayed as not just encompassing the whole multiverse, but transcending the multiverse as well, which is what I've been saying this whole time.
The fact that he stated that he predates the multiverse and will outlast it, not unlike Oblivion.
The fact that he stated that he transcends space and time, a relationship that should carry across multiversal boundaries up to their very concepts (which exist in Marvel on a High 1-B scale).
The fact that he both encompasses and transcends the infinite dualities of the multiverse.
As far as I'm concerned, there isn't much reason to think that the Living Tribunal isn't 1-A. He is not to identified with strictly and solely the multiverse alone.
>You're one to say that, since you're throwing away the actual canon to sate your needs of absolute consistency by inventing headcanon that an entity that was explicitly stated to be the Tribunal in its whole was just an M-Body.
"The multiverse taken form" isn't necessarily equal to "the Living Tribunal in his totality" in terms of statements.
>The Tribunal is the sum total of all Multiversal Entities, each of which embody aspects of the multiverse. Therefore, the Tribunal in a form that represents "all of reality; the multiverse itself taken form" is the Complete Tribunal.
>Yes to both.
I disagree.
>This is false. Their plan was to kill Molecule Man in every reality, since each universe's Molecule Man had a bomb sealed within that would destroy the universe they were in. All of their destruction revolved around Molecule Man. The various deaths of Universal Eternity and Infinity's manifestations? They didn't do shit to the respective universe.
You mean the destruction of space and time materialized in anthropomorphic form had not effect of the universe, but that some random Molecule Man bombs did?
Remind me to reread that 2015 Secret Wars story arc.
>I'm not sure if you realize that you're demolishing your own argument by pointing out that the destruction of an infinitesimal M-Body of Death resulted in multiversal chaos, while the destruction of, according to you, an "extremely powerful multiversal M-Body" of the Tribunal didn't do shit, even to one single universe (since the textbox points out that all of the Tribunal's fragments fell on celestial bodies in every universe and world of the multiverse, suggesting the fight and the Tribunal's subsequent death didn't destroy any of them).
Good thing I don't actually believe that was an M-Body of Death then, but the real deal (considering that this was a Pre-Retcon Beyonder story). Even if it was just an M-Body of Death, the fact that it's destruction had massive ramifications while the death of the supposedly complete form of the Living Tribunal had no ramifications is an inconsistency that should be explained.
And the explanation probably has something to do with...:
>Unless you're going to backtrack and argue it was a less-than-infinitesimal hyper-insignificant M-Body they killed and that the Narrator is a dirty-liar when he said the Tribunal assumed his complete form. Wouldn't be surprised if you did, though.
The narrator didn't say that it was the complete form of Living Tribunal, just that the specific form the Tribunal took embodied the multiverse.
So yes, I could make that argument that it was a "less-than-infinitesimal hyper-insignificant M-Body".
>Marvel Abstracts are about as baseline High 1-B as it can possibly get. They aren't even full-on multiversal embodiments; they embody singular aspects of the High 1-B multiverse. There is a lot of stuff I could point out if I wanted to irrationally downplay them; such as the fact that a 16-Dimensional Subspace was stated to be "beyond space and time" at one point (which both pokes holes on your 1-A interpretation of the High 2-A/at the very most High 1-B quote and shows that "space and time" doesn't necessarily refer to Multi-Eternity and Multi-Infinity)
1. Marvel abstracts aren't baseline high 1-B. The concepts the multiverse bases itself on (like Cantorian set theory) make it too big to merely be baseline 1-B.
2. The "16-dimensional superspace" statement occurs in a different context than the other "beyond space and time" quotes brought up in this thread. The "16-dimensional superspace" quote is some sci-fi-esque statement where a higher-dimensional space transcends "regular" space-time (3-D space + 1-D time).
The other quotes are far more philosophical, if not even mystical in nature, and are meant to explain the Living Tribunal's position in the cosmic hierarchy of the Marvel multiverse.
>He is 1-A via powerscaling, not via his own showings, so...no.
That's still a character here who isn't 1-A because he is explicitly described as being dimensionless.
>This is false. We only consider constructs of space and time 1-A if they receive powerscaling from 1-A characters, and we never give them Beyond-Dimensional Existence or Nature, just Attack Potency, Durability and etc. on that level. Similar to how there exist many franchises with characters that are 3-D but have 4-D, 5-D, or even High 1-B levels of energy and power.
And yet the Father Time page ranks him as a "Beyond-Dimensional Existence".
This is false. They're called Platonic Forms because objects that possess form and shape are defined by them, hence they're the original metaphorical "form" of said object. They're still utterly non-physical and transcendental.
And yet they still aren't formless.
But this is mostly irrelevant anyway.
>Guess a 16-dimensional void is now beyond Eternity and Infinity as well.
Different contexts. Explained this before. Moving on.
>That's not how it works, for the millionth time. Transcending the space and time of a High 1-B multiverse doesn't grant you a 1-A rating (this is explicitly noted in the definition), neither does it warrant Type 3 Transduality.
As I have already explained several times, the Living Tribunal is beyond Eternity and Infinity, but he himself is still an entity whose scale only goes as far as representing the entire multiverse and all its concepts, as opposed to the aforementioned two abstracts, who only represent one singular aspect of the multiverse. Hence why he is only a Type 2 Transdual and a high-end High 1-B character, but still nowhere near 1-A.
I didn't say that transcending space-time of a high 1-B multiverse made one 1-A, I said that transcending the very concepts of space and time, concepts existing on a scale encompassing all dimensional levels, makes you 1-A. And that the Living Tribunal does this.
>This is headcanon.
No it isn't. Why would the Chaos King not appear then, if the manifestations were so weak?
>It is stated that, were the Chaos King to succeed, Eternity in its entirety would disappear. Later, it is revealed that 99% of the multiverse had been erased by the entity.
As you like to repeat so much: "connect the dots."'
I have. They line up in the direction of Chaos King being at least Multiversal+, but not necessarily high 1-B.
And "Eternity in his entirety" could mean different things depending on the context (like the knowledge level of the speaker concerning the multiverse).
>The burden of proof is on you to prove that he wasn't talking about the entire multiverse. He explicitly states 99% of the multiverse had been erased. There is absolutely no basis to interpret it as anything but the entire construct. Either prove it wasn't or concede, once more.
I'm not going to prove a negative for you when you can't even prove a positive.
Why must that quote necessarily refer to the entire multiverse again?
>Replace "multiverse" with "universe" and see how ridiculous your argument gets:
"He erased 99% of the universe" "Prove that that guy was talking about the entire universe!"
This argument falls flat when one realizes that the multiverse has multiple layers, so that one could affect one layer but not others. It falls even flatter when one realizes that even the Earth-616 universe has a wide array of features, so that one could affect, for example, the observable universe without affecting anything else.
>I also don't remember any Naruto character saying that Kaguya didn't transcend the concepts of space and time throughout all the multiverse and couldn't effortlessly erase an Infinite-Dimensional universe. I guess she can because nothing says otherwise
That isn't how basic debating and burden of proof works. You can't just make up stuff about the Marvel Multiverse and expect people to believe it because "nobody says it's the limit!"
You're misinterpreting my point. My point was that the Marvel cosmology allowed for outerversal structures, because it was basically a composite hierarchy.
>Something you made up that can't be at all discerned from what was stated.
Beyonder: "I embody a universe - said universe isn't even anything without me!"
You: "That means said universe is the background canvas of the whole multiverse, and transcends its concepts entirely to the point of it being nonexistent in comparison"
Not getting the joke. Serious, man.
When did I say that the Beyonder realm was the background canvas of the Marvel multiverse (unless I'm reading your argument wrong)?
And when I was talking about the Beyonder Realm being a canvas for all types of dimensional spaces by itself, I'm talking about stuff like the Beyonder's infinite-dimensional "true form".
>But similar lack of interpretation.
I disagree.
>If you don't consider the Beyonder lowering his base dimensionality from infinite to 3-D, but still being able to fully manifest if he so desired as him taking on an "avatar", fine. Semantics don't change absolutely anything, nonetheless the fact that the narrator explicitly states his true form is Infinite-Dimensional.
It's not "semantics", I was more comparing what Beyonder did to what Umineko Voyager witches do. That is, change their dimensional level, and even become adimensional, through sheer force of will.
>Similar wording means other scans with similar context and wording can possibly have similar interpretations instead of set ones.
Yeah, I guess so. How does that affect any of my arguments though (since I know that's your underlying point)?
>"Four-dimensional spacetime barrier between this plane...and what lies beyond [it]"
Literally the first panel in the bottom row.
And yet, at face value, it doesn't make any sense. Why would "submicroscopic quantum level" quarks exist outside the Beyonder Realm? The most reasonable judgement to make here is that the quarks are "outside" the Beyonder Realm in the sense of no longer being inside it, and likely in some other universe similar to Earth-616 Eternity. The "4-D space-time barrier" exists "downward", in the sense that it exists between the Beyonder Realm and lower levels of existence.
>You're strawmanning me. I simply said it was beyond the Beyond Realm (which is explicitly stated in the scan without any room for doubt), not that it was utterly transcendent of it or anything.
Well then I apologize for strawmanning you. It wasn't my intention. And...
Wait.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NDaj0mrp...cHXJK-hB1Qgc4x-WKGNlxwCHMYCw/s1600/RCO055.jpg
Looking at this scan again, I want to ask a question: why are we even assuming that is the Beyonder Realm? It could just be some random selection of the multiverse that the Beyonders occasionally pop in to observe universes and create Cosmic Cubes.
Hell, thinking about it a little more makes me wonder why they didn't even meet any Beyonders, if that was the Beyonder Realm.
>1. Nothing implies the Tribunal personally stepped in. It could have been that the Beyonders themselves sought him out.
"Nothing implies" when the Living Tribunal manifested as the multiverse itself to fight them.
"Nothing implies". Please.
2. The exact same Tribunal who stepped in personally to deal with Korvac, an entity whose power rivaled that of one singular Cosmic Cube? I guess you think Korvac is superior to the Chaos King now. That would hardly be surprising at this stage, anyway.
I mean, IIRC, Korvac was stated by the Tribunal to a threat to the "omniverse", so it could go either way really.
"Just because Mr. Mxyzptlk is stated to be a 5-Dimensional Imp doesn't mean he isn't a Beyond-Infinite-Dimensional entity who completely dwarves time and space"
I was talking about what the Beyonders were doing, not what they were being.
Nice try though.
>"All the dimensions - each nebulous netherworld which exists either in time or in space - either as matter or as fathomless void"
Unarguably not.
The Living Tribunal was contrasting the whole spectrum of "netherworld" types, not saying that they *only* exist in either space or time.
>When has he stated he controls the void Oblivion represents?
From the scan you linked just above.
[1]
>"Death has his joys... As do Love, Eternity and the countless other cosmic deities who play their parts in the Divine Drama... But Oblivion... Has nothing."
That doesn't prove a lack of connection. In fact, it doesn't prove much of anything, as it's a textbook example of that "flowery language" you've often railed so hard against in this thread.
Every other cosmic deity having their "joys" with Oblivion having "nothing" is...well I don't even know how to interpret it, because I'd first have to understand what does Oblivion mean by "joy"? Does he mean emotion, relationship, moments of pure bliss?
>Don't pull a loaded question on me. You have yet to prove he is 1-A to begin with. It doesn't contradict it because this quote, and other quotes, never indicated him to be 1-A in the first place.
Saying that you exist beyond the realms (I.e. the conceptual extents). the conceptual extent) of space and time, concepts that encompass a high 1-B multiverse, isn't indication of being 1-A?
That sounds dumb to me.
>Transduality
Type 2 (False General Transduality): Being qualitatively beyond and superior to the nature of all dual systems and concepts within the scope of an entire level of reality. Any non 1-A (Outerverse level) characters who transcend duality at a basic level would also qualify for this level, as space and time can be thought of as dual concepts, as well as existing within/outside spatio-temporal dimensionality The Living Tribunal is explicitly stated to be the multiverse itself taken form. He embodies the multiverse to an extent greater than Eternity and Infinity, in the sense that he embodies Time, Space, Order, Chaos and Death, while both Eternity and Infinity only embody time and space, respectively.
Absolutely none of the quotes provided so far breach Type 2 Transduality. The following statement:
"The Living Tribunal transcends the duality of space and time on a High 1-B multiverse" Fits under Type 2, as it is still limited to the scope of the whole of the multiverse.
And who says that the multiverse cannot have dimensionless or beyond-dimensional components to it, that the Living Tribunal encompasses (since he predates and transcends it)?
Hell, even by your standards, whose to say that the relationship between Eternity (High 1-B) and the Living Tribunal isn't the same as that of the Chaos King and Oblivion, in that Eternity is only an insignificant aspect of the Living Tribunal?
Saying that a character is still "only limited to the concepts of the multiverse" mean nothing in and of itself, when multiverses can possess transcendent realms or attributes befitting a 1-A (not to mention that those concepts that the Living Tribunal are supposedly ultimately still "limited" to include Cantorian set theory and more than likely its "set of all sets").
>This is completely exaggerating and embellishing the quote.
"Fathom" is synonymous to "understand". Therefore, "unfathomable" is something that can't be understood. All the quote says is that Eternity is unable to understand the Tribunal's motives, not that he can't even begin to possibly understand the very nature of the Tribunal.
You yourself stated that Eternity is one of the abstracts that make up the Tribunal, so the fact that Eternity simply cannot understand the Living Tribunal's motives is telling in and of itself.
>Evidence?
You yourself admitted this. But I'll still look for the evidence if you want it so much.
>Eternity and Infinity are embodiments of time and space throughout the multiverse. Other aspects are beyond them.
Meanwhile, The Tribunal is the embodiment of absolutely everything in the multiverse. He is the fusion of all abstracts.
What are the other aspects that are beyond space (Infinity) and time (Eternity), wonder?
However, it isn't relevant anyway. The Living Tribunal has been clearly and consistently portrayed as not just encompassing the whole multiverse, but transcending the multiverse as well, which is what I've been saying this whole time.
The fact that he stated that he predates the multiverse and will outlast it, not unlike Oblivion.
The fact that he stated that he transcends space and time, a relationship that should carry across multiversal boundaries up to their very concepts (which exist in Marvel on a High 1-B scale).
The fact that he both encompasses and transcends the infinite dualities of the multiverse.
As far as I'm concerned, there isn't much reason to think that the Living Tribunal isn't 1-A. He is not to identified with strictly and solely the multiverse alone.
>You're one to say that, since you're throwing away the actual canon to sate your needs of absolute consistency by inventing headcanon that an entity that was explicitly stated to be the Tribunal in its whole was just an M-Body.
"The multiverse taken form" isn't necessarily equal to "the Living Tribunal in his totality" in terms of statements.
>The Tribunal is the sum total of all Multiversal Entities, each of which embody aspects of the multiverse. Therefore, the Tribunal in a form that represents "all of reality; the multiverse itself taken form" is the Complete Tribunal.
Code:
I wouldn't say the "complete" Tribunal, as he stated that he predates the multiverse, which would mean that he predates himself if he were to be strictly identified with the multiverse.I disagree.
>This is false. Their plan was to kill Molecule Man in every reality, since each universe's Molecule Man had a bomb sealed within that would destroy the universe they were in. All of their destruction revolved around Molecule Man. The various deaths of Universal Eternity and Infinity's manifestations? They didn't do shit to the respective universe.
You mean the destruction of space and time materialized in anthropomorphic form had not effect of the universe, but that some random Molecule Man bombs did?
Remind me to reread that 2015 Secret Wars story arc.
>I'm not sure if you realize that you're demolishing your own argument by pointing out that the destruction of an infinitesimal M-Body of Death resulted in multiversal chaos, while the destruction of, according to you, an "extremely powerful multiversal M-Body" of the Tribunal didn't do shit, even to one single universe (since the textbox points out that all of the Tribunal's fragments fell on celestial bodies in every universe and world of the multiverse, suggesting the fight and the Tribunal's subsequent death didn't destroy any of them).
Good thing I don't actually believe that was an M-Body of Death then, but the real deal (considering that this was a Pre-Retcon Beyonder story). Even if it was just an M-Body of Death, the fact that it's destruction had massive ramifications while the death of the supposedly complete form of the Living Tribunal had no ramifications is an inconsistency that should be explained.
And the explanation probably has something to do with...:
>Unless you're going to backtrack and argue it was a less-than-infinitesimal hyper-insignificant M-Body they killed and that the Narrator is a dirty-liar when he said the Tribunal assumed his complete form. Wouldn't be surprised if you did, though.
The narrator didn't say that it was the complete form of Living Tribunal, just that the specific form the Tribunal took embodied the multiverse.
So yes, I could make that argument that it was a "less-than-infinitesimal hyper-insignificant M-Body".
>Marvel Abstracts are about as baseline High 1-B as it can possibly get. They aren't even full-on multiversal embodiments; they embody singular aspects of the High 1-B multiverse. There is a lot of stuff I could point out if I wanted to irrationally downplay them; such as the fact that a 16-Dimensional Subspace was stated to be "beyond space and time" at one point (which both pokes holes on your 1-A interpretation of the High 2-A/at the very most High 1-B quote and shows that "space and time" doesn't necessarily refer to Multi-Eternity and Multi-Infinity)
1. Marvel abstracts aren't baseline high 1-B. The concepts the multiverse bases itself on (like Cantorian set theory) make it too big to merely be baseline 1-B.
2. The "16-dimensional superspace" statement occurs in a different context than the other "beyond space and time" quotes brought up in this thread. The "16-dimensional superspace" quote is some sci-fi-esque statement where a higher-dimensional space transcends "regular" space-time (3-D space + 1-D time).
The other quotes are far more philosophical, if not even mystical in nature, and are meant to explain the Living Tribunal's position in the cosmic hierarchy of the Marvel multiverse.
>He is 1-A via powerscaling, not via his own showings, so...no.
That's still a character here who isn't 1-A because he is explicitly described as being dimensionless.
>This is false. We only consider constructs of space and time 1-A if they receive powerscaling from 1-A characters, and we never give them Beyond-Dimensional Existence or Nature, just Attack Potency, Durability and etc. on that level. Similar to how there exist many franchises with characters that are 3-D but have 4-D, 5-D, or even High 1-B levels of energy and power.
And yet the Father Time page ranks him as a "Beyond-Dimensional Existence".
This is false. They're called Platonic Forms because objects that possess form and shape are defined by them, hence they're the original metaphorical "form" of said object. They're still utterly non-physical and transcendental.
And yet they still aren't formless.
But this is mostly irrelevant anyway.
>Guess a 16-dimensional void is now beyond Eternity and Infinity as well.
Different contexts. Explained this before. Moving on.
>That's not how it works, for the millionth time. Transcending the space and time of a High 1-B multiverse doesn't grant you a 1-A rating (this is explicitly noted in the definition), neither does it warrant Type 3 Transduality.
As I have already explained several times, the Living Tribunal is beyond Eternity and Infinity, but he himself is still an entity whose scale only goes as far as representing the entire multiverse and all its concepts, as opposed to the aforementioned two abstracts, who only represent one singular aspect of the multiverse. Hence why he is only a Type 2 Transdual and a high-end High 1-B character, but still nowhere near 1-A.
I didn't say that transcending space-time of a high 1-B multiverse made one 1-A, I said that transcending the very concepts of space and time, concepts existing on a scale encompassing all dimensional levels, makes you 1-A. And that the Living Tribunal does this.
>This is headcanon.
No it isn't. Why would the Chaos King not appear then, if the manifestations were so weak?
>It is stated that, were the Chaos King to succeed, Eternity in its entirety would disappear. Later, it is revealed that 99% of the multiverse had been erased by the entity.
As you like to repeat so much: "connect the dots."'
I have. They line up in the direction of Chaos King being at least Multiversal+, but not necessarily high 1-B.
And "Eternity in his entirety" could mean different things depending on the context (like the knowledge level of the speaker concerning the multiverse).
>The burden of proof is on you to prove that he wasn't talking about the entire multiverse. He explicitly states 99% of the multiverse had been erased. There is absolutely no basis to interpret it as anything but the entire construct. Either prove it wasn't or concede, once more.
I'm not going to prove a negative for you when you can't even prove a positive.
Why must that quote necessarily refer to the entire multiverse again?
>Replace "multiverse" with "universe" and see how ridiculous your argument gets:
"He erased 99% of the universe" "Prove that that guy was talking about the entire universe!"
This argument falls flat when one realizes that the multiverse has multiple layers, so that one could affect one layer but not others. It falls even flatter when one realizes that even the Earth-616 universe has a wide array of features, so that one could affect, for example, the observable universe without affecting anything else.
>I also don't remember any Naruto character saying that Kaguya didn't transcend the concepts of space and time throughout all the multiverse and couldn't effortlessly erase an Infinite-Dimensional universe. I guess she can because nothing says otherwise
That isn't how basic debating and burden of proof works. You can't just make up stuff about the Marvel Multiverse and expect people to believe it because "nobody says it's the limit!"
You're misinterpreting my point. My point was that the Marvel cosmology allowed for outerversal structures, because it was basically a composite hierarchy.
>Something you made up that can't be at all discerned from what was stated.
Beyonder: "I embody a universe - said universe isn't even anything without me!"
You: "That means said universe is the background canvas of the whole multiverse, and transcends its concepts entirely to the point of it being nonexistent in comparison"
Not getting the joke. Serious, man.
When did I say that the Beyonder realm was the background canvas of the Marvel multiverse (unless I'm reading your argument wrong)?
And when I was talking about the Beyonder Realm being a canvas for all types of dimensional spaces by itself, I'm talking about stuff like the Beyonder's infinite-dimensional "true form".
>But similar lack of interpretation.
I disagree.
>If you don't consider the Beyonder lowering his base dimensionality from infinite to 3-D, but still being able to fully manifest if he so desired as him taking on an "avatar", fine. Semantics don't change absolutely anything, nonetheless the fact that the narrator explicitly states his true form is Infinite-Dimensional.
It's not "semantics", I was more comparing what Beyonder did to what Umineko Voyager witches do. That is, change their dimensional level, and even become adimensional, through sheer force of will.
>Similar wording means other scans with similar context and wording can possibly have similar interpretations instead of set ones.
Yeah, I guess so. How does that affect any of my arguments though (since I know that's your underlying point)?
>"Four-dimensional spacetime barrier between this plane...and what lies beyond [it]"
Literally the first panel in the bottom row.
And yet, at face value, it doesn't make any sense. Why would "submicroscopic quantum level" quarks exist outside the Beyonder Realm? The most reasonable judgement to make here is that the quarks are "outside" the Beyonder Realm in the sense of no longer being inside it, and likely in some other universe similar to Earth-616 Eternity. The "4-D space-time barrier" exists "downward", in the sense that it exists between the Beyonder Realm and lower levels of existence.
>You're strawmanning me. I simply said it was beyond the Beyond Realm (which is explicitly stated in the scan without any room for doubt), not that it was utterly transcendent of it or anything.
Well then I apologize for strawmanning you. It wasn't my intention. And...
Wait.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NDaj0mrp...cHXJK-hB1Qgc4x-WKGNlxwCHMYCw/s1600/RCO055.jpg
Looking at this scan again, I want to ask a question: why are we even assuming that is the Beyonder Realm? It could just be some random selection of the multiverse that the Beyonders occasionally pop in to observe universes and create Cosmic Cubes.
Hell, thinking about it a little more makes me wonder why they didn't even meet any Beyonders, if that was the Beyonder Realm.
>1. Nothing implies the Tribunal personally stepped in. It could have been that the Beyonders themselves sought him out.
"Nothing implies" when the Living Tribunal manifested as the multiverse itself to fight them.
"Nothing implies". Please.
2. The exact same Tribunal who stepped in personally to deal with Korvac, an entity whose power rivaled that of one singular Cosmic Cube? I guess you think Korvac is superior to the Chaos King now. That would hardly be surprising at this stage, anyway.
I mean, IIRC, Korvac was stated by the Tribunal to a threat to the "omniverse", so it could go either way really.
"Just because Mr. Mxyzptlk is stated to be a 5-Dimensional Imp doesn't mean he isn't a Beyond-Infinite-Dimensional entity who completely dwarves time and space"
I was talking about what the Beyonders were doing, not what they were being.
Nice try though.
>"All the dimensions - each nebulous netherworld which exists either in time or in space - either as matter or as fathomless void"
Unarguably not.
The Living Tribunal was contrasting the whole spectrum of "netherworld" types, not saying that they *only* exist in either space or time.
>When has he stated he controls the void Oblivion represents?
From the scan you linked just above.
[1]
>"Death has his joys... As do Love, Eternity and the countless other cosmic deities who play their parts in the Divine Drama... But Oblivion... Has nothing."
That doesn't prove a lack of connection. In fact, it doesn't prove much of anything, as it's a textbook example of that "flowery language" you've often railed so hard against in this thread.
Every other cosmic deity having their "joys" with Oblivion having "nothing" is...well I don't even know how to interpret it, because I'd first have to understand what does Oblivion mean by "joy"? Does he mean emotion, relationship, moments of pure bliss?
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This debate is getting tiresome and circular.
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I know I am not a staff member... So forgive me for the intrusion (again) .... But I wanted to ask this question out of politeness (since I saw this thread was nigh-complete):
So... I conversed with PrinceOfTheMorning about a continuation of the "At least 2-C , possibly 2-A" thread that he seems to agree with... Involving the "Core Realities" of Marvel [ Meaning Earth 616 & it's Branching Realities ] being far greater than fourth-dimensional. I'm unsure if it would be appropriate to upload it now considering this revision thread is, despite being near complete, is still ongoing and it may off set it by quite a bit.
So is it okay if I make the thread as soon as this one is finished, or would you recommend waiting further ?
So... I conversed with PrinceOfTheMorning about a continuation of the "At least 2-C , possibly 2-A" thread that he seems to agree with... Involving the "Core Realities" of Marvel [ Meaning Earth 616 & it's Branching Realities ] being far greater than fourth-dimensional. I'm unsure if it would be appropriate to upload it now considering this revision thread is, despite being near complete, is still ongoing and it may off set it by quite a bit.
So is it okay if I make the thread as soon as this one is finished, or would you recommend waiting further ?
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Seed, please don't put words in my mouth to make it seem as if I'm endorsing massive changes or upgrades. All I said was that, and I quote, certain "dimensions within the multiverse have more than three spatial dimensions". In regard to this proposal, I called it interesting but expressed doubt that it would lead anywhere.
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I'll respond first thing tomorrow.
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@POTM I never intended to make it appear as if you actually agreed with the totality of the upgrad per say ... All I intended to say was I at least talked to you about it beforehand and seemed to agree that there are dimensions within the Multiverse with more thab three dimensions as you yourself said, not that you agreed with the upgrade. Sorry about that... But me being vague about that probably didn't help.
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It's no biggie, so let's not derail here anymore.
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Agreed.
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>Eternity and Infinity are embodiments of time and space throughout the multiverse. Other aspects are beyond them.
Also that is just blatant headcanon.
Eternity and infinity embodies the whole multiverse not just time and space throughout the multiverse (which would still be the multiverse is they are just embodiments of time and space throughout the multiverse tho btw lol). It's multiple times stated Eternity is all there is and even be the boundary of everything that exist. Or the fact having other aspect of the multiverse what would completely mess up the marvel cosmology and the first firmament story.
Also what other aspects are beyond them? Order and Chaos? they are below them. Death and Life? they are within them, Inbetweener? Below them
i'm not even sure where you got this when it's literally stated that eternity and infinity is stronger than other aspects of the multiverse.Or the fact that Eternity isn't just Time Throughout the Multiverse.
Also that is just blatant headcanon.
Eternity and infinity embodies the whole multiverse not just time and space throughout the multiverse (which would still be the multiverse is they are just embodiments of time and space throughout the multiverse tho btw lol). It's multiple times stated Eternity is all there is and even be the boundary of everything that exist. Or the fact having other aspect of the multiverse what would completely mess up the marvel cosmology and the first firmament story.
Also what other aspects are beyond them? Order and Chaos? they are below them. Death and Life? they are within them, Inbetweener? Below them
i'm not even sure where you got this when it's literally stated that eternity and infinity is stronger than other aspects of the multiverse.Or the fact that Eternity isn't just Time Throughout the Multiverse.
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> Also that is just blatantly headcanon.
Basic reading comprehension, man.
Basic reading comprehension, man.
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Nope.
Tell me which other aspect of the marvel multiverse is beyond Eternity
Tell me which other aspect of the marvel multiverse is beyond Eternity
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Eternity only embodies time throughout the multiverse. Other concepts are embodied by other multiversal entities. Saying otherwise is rewriting the verse's lore.
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You are correct about other multiversal entities being other concepts (Tho you did ignore my question ;-
but they are still within Eternity. It's multiple confirmed that Eternity not only embodies time but of everything that exist in the multiverse. As proven with the existence of the superflow all concepts taking form in the superflow which is within eternity. (The Superflow and Neutral Zone both existed in current and previous multiverse as well)
Here is multiple evidence of eternity embodying all there is.
To deny this would literally denying marvel lore and the lore of the first firmament who was the first cosmos
but they are still within Eternity. It's multiple confirmed that Eternity not only embodies time but of everything that exist in the multiverse. As proven with the existence of the superflow all concepts taking form in the superflow which is within eternity. (The Superflow and Neutral Zone both existed in current and previous multiverse as well)Here is multiple evidence of eternity embodying all there is.
To deny this would literally denying marvel lore and the lore of the first firmament who was the first cosmos
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I don't entirely disagree with kep. But I'm pretty sure marvel made it clear that Eternity = the entire multiverse with everything and everyone in it. This has been multiple proven by statements, writers and by the fact that characters went outside of multi eternity to go to the infinite conceptless nothingness called the outside.
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@Ant
I'm pretty only Mbodies of eternity and infinity are also considered to be seperated embodiments from each other. Whereas the True Body of either Infinity or Eternity never considered themselves as either being time or space. Since it's pretty much confirmed in Ultimates (The comic where Multi infinity officially appeared) that Infinity and Eternity are the same beings, the 2 in One . This also can be confirmed when U.N Destroyed the Multi Eternity it didn't only destroy eternity but also infinity .
I'm pretty only Mbodies of eternity and infinity are also considered to be seperated embodiments from each other. Whereas the True Body of either Infinity or Eternity never considered themselves as either being time or space. Since it's pretty much confirmed in Ultimates (The comic where Multi infinity officially appeared) that Infinity and Eternity are the same beings, the 2 in One . This also can be confirmed when U.N Destroyed the Multi Eternity it didn't only destroy eternity but also infinity .
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Eternity only embodies the whole multiverse in its 8th iteration.
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That's not completely true and that would mess up the lore of the first firmament again. The 8th iteration is just Eternity without being one with Infinity. it's even confirmed in the Infamous comic where dormammu kills eternity that the 7th iteration is everything.
I don't know why every iteration is completely a multiverse except for the 7th? Ultimates literally confirms the death of one multiverse is just a birth of another one. And that the 7th just reborn into 8th ... Without any changes except that Infinity doesn't exist anymore.
I don't know why every iteration is completely a multiverse except for the 7th? Ultimates literally confirms the death of one multiverse is just a birth of another one. And that the 7th just reborn into 8th ... Without any changes except that Infinity doesn't exist anymore.
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Eternity was only the embodiment of time in the 7th multiverse, and only became the embodiment of all existence in the eighth iteration. Other concepts of the multiverse were beyond him. Infinity and Eternity are called "one in the same" because they form one whole (the duality of space and time), not because they're literally the same entity.
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@Ant
Do you think there is enough input to apply the revision at this point?
Do you think there is enough input to apply the revision at this point?
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Just asking a question. Is there enough to provide a "Possilbly 1-A" tier?
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I personally don't think so. Not for the Beyonder and the TLT, at least.
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What about Molecule Man? I think I heard a feat about him crating an omniverse or something like that.
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He is High 1-B, giving him a possibly Higher is possible but not likely.
Also heres the scan —>
Also heres the scan —>
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@Demiurgic Archangel
Please stop derailing this thread. Occasional non-staff comments are fine if they have something very important to say, but not otherwise.
@Kepekley23
Well, it wouldn't hurt if you ask some more administrators and discussion moderators to give input/confirmations here first.
You can also ask for confirmations from PrinceOfTheMorning and Sandman31, as they are the go-to guys for Marvel and DC Comics evaluations.
Please stop derailing this thread. Occasional non-staff comments are fine if they have something very important to say, but not otherwise.
@Kepekley23
Well, it wouldn't hurt if you ask some more administrators and discussion moderators to give input/confirmations here first.
You can also ask for confirmations from PrinceOfTheMorning and Sandman31, as they are the go-to guys for Marvel and DC Comics evaluations.
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Well, I already said at the top that I agree with the Living Tribunal and Pre-Retcon Beyonder going down to High 1-B.
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Okay. I think that these changes can be applied then.
Just please remember to do a thorough job, so all of the profiles that are scaled from them are properly adjusted as well, and there are no internal contradictions within any of the pages.
Just please remember to do a thorough job, so all of the profiles that are scaled from them are properly adjusted as well, and there are no internal contradictions within any of the pages.
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Not a staff, but I'm fearing this will get buried, so, bump.
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I think I got all of them.
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I think so, yea.
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