Mario Galaxy games Mario should be a different key from normal Mario

[Potemkat]

In Mario Galaxy 1 and 2, Mario is much stronger than he is normally.

That's because at the beginning of Mario Galaxy 1 and Mario Galaxy 2, he gets a special luma under his cap, which give him new powers (said in both games).

He is also said to give power and abilities to Mario in a guide, some trading card (?), the intruction book of Galaxy 2 and Smash Bros trophy.

We also see that with the Spin Mario gets. It allows him to destroy crystals he can't destroy before and damage bosses he can't do anything to without Spin.

I think it's logic for Mario to be more powerful in general because of his Luma in both games, since it says that it gives him power and abilities; and we see how he is more powerful several times in the games.

So I don't think it's logic for normal Mario to be as strong as Mario in Galaxy games; because this Mario is boosted by the luma.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeag

@Kirbonic_Pikmin brought this up to me off-site, and the logic is pretty sound. It's quite clear that the Luma is a significant power boost, and the gameplay supports this, as well as the logic of how 3-C is a massive leap from the next highest scalable feats. I agree, obviously, though there's still the question of what his non-galaxy key would be downgraded to. IIRC there are some consistent star to MSS feats out there.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

This is kind of insane, right as the New Year starts a bunch of people suddenly started posting Mario downgrades for things I was planning to bring to the verse.

To add to OPs post, it’s consistently stated throughout every description for the Luma that he gives Mario the power of the stars, implying he’s bestowing a power of some kind to him. Without the Luma Mario couldn’t use the Star Spin, which is specifically how he combats most enemies in this game, how he damages bosses, and how he traverses & uses Launch Stats.

the Galaxy 2 instruction book specifically denotes that Mario needs the Luma to “traverse the cosmos”, which if anything would be nice extra support that things like the speeds he reaches in these games wouldn’t be capable without the Luma’s power either, meaning these MFTL+ speeds would likely have to be restricted to when he’s empowered by the Luma.

Base Mario still has MFTL+ calcs that aren’t used by the Luma, they’re just slower than the quad c stuff he has with the Luma iirc. There’s stuff like the reactions from being thrown from space in Dream Team, the Mario Party games have an assortment of stuff that could all give Mario MFTL+ calcs still regardless.

This key change would also mean that Base Mario would have to be downgraded, as would anyone who isn’t a Grand Star / Grand Master Luma user. As Fujiwara said, there’s consistent Planet, Star, and Star System feats he could absolutely be scaled to across the games, which Base Mario & everyone else would be scaled to.

So basically, Mario & Luigi’s 3C Base Key would be changed to “with Grand Master Luma”, and they would be given a new downgraded tier for base forms, and everyone that scales to 3C that IS NOT A Grand Star user would be downgraded

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

Yeag

@Kirbonic_Pikmin brought this up to me off-site, and the logic is pretty sound. It's quite clear that the Luma is a significant power boost, and the gameplay supports this, as well as the logic of how 3-C is a massive leap from the next highest scalable feats. I agree, obviously, though there's still the question of what his non-galaxy key would be downgraded to. IIRC there are some consistent star to MSS feats out there.

arent there a ton of 4-A starry sky feats

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

arent there a ton of 4-A starry sky feats

Uhhh the only possible one I can think of is reality warping in Yoshi’s Story, but even that would only be 4B iirc. I don’t think there’s anymore 4A feats lefts after 4A Power Stars got dropped?

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

4-A power stars got dropped? why

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

4-A power stars got dropped? why

It was a translation error. The reasoning for 4A didn’t exist in the original Japanese text and was completely added in the English translation. Japanese text only says Bowser entered/took over the painting worlds, while English says he created.

Since SM64 is a Japanese game created in Japan, we use its text & story as priority to the English text.

 

[Dust_Collector]

How would this affect Bowser tho? Man isn't amped in the first game and is still on par with Mario. Guess we're gonna treat Bowser being able to actually fight Mario in SMG1 as an outlier or something.

As for the other stats for for their base, yeah I think we've got some neat stuff. One of the best ones is probably this Power Star moving and rearranging all these stars. We do have a calc for this feat but for some reason it only takes into account 12 stars being moved, but I can't blame the dude who did the calc for only using 12 because trying to count each individual star on screen (As well as the ones that dragged in from off screen) sounds like a pain.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

How would this affect Bowser tho? Man isn't amped in the first game and is still on par with Mario. Guess we're gonna treat Bowser being able to actually fight Mario in SMG1 as an outlier or something.

As for the other stats for for their base, yeah I think we've got some neat stuff. One of the best ones is probably this Power Star moving and rearranging all these stars. We do have a calc for this feat but for some reason it only takes into account 12 stars being moved, but I can't blame the dude who did the calc for only using 12 because trying to count each individual star on screen (As well as the ones that dragged in from off screen) sounds like a pain.

I thought Bowser was using Grand Stars in the Galaxy games? I could be misremembering, but most bosses throughout the series were amped by them, so assuming the same for Bowser isn't entirely unreasonable if it means ignoring a major potential outlier.

 

[Dust_Collector]

I thought Bowser was using Grand Stars in the Galaxy games? I could be misremembering, but most bosses throughout the series were amped by them, so assuming the same for Bowser isn't entirely unreasonable if it means ignoring a major potential outlier.

He only used Grand Stars to amp himself in the second game, in the first one he never personally uses them outside of sticking them into his galaxy reactor.

 

[Chariot190]

Isn't the reason this Mario is so strong, because he fought Bowser, who has these wacky feats? Who isn't amped.
Several of reasons for why Mario is amped also don't check out, it's stated Luma grants him abilities, which it does,
"This is the Luma that Rosalina gives to Mario in the beginning of the game, who grants Mario the power to do star spins -- a move that will be invaluable against many unforeseen enemies."
""Prima Games Official Guide bio: There are many Luma[sic] in the cosmos, but this particular Luma is Mario's constant companion during his space travels. This cute little star gifts Mario with some amazing skills, such as the ability to survive in deep space and unleash a special spin that helps him break free of gravity and damages various dangerous denizens. While Mario explores the galaxies, he will meet many different Luma[sic], from helpful black Luma[sic] that manage the charts of the cosmos to green Luma[sic] that hide a special secret."
Instruction booklet bio: Mario found this lost little Luma. He grants Mario a mysterious power of the stars, which comes in handy as they explore the cosmos together!
"North American website bio: This pint-sized Luma is along for the ride after being rescued by Mario, armed with a whole bag of new tricks powered by the stars. Exploring the cosmos has never been more fun and exciting with a Baby Luma under his hat!"
"Once every hundred years, stardust rains down upon the land. Of course, this is a perfect time for Peach to get kidnapped. In order to save her, Mario sets off across the galaxies with the aid of a lost, little star child. Named Baby Luma, this star child uses its star powers to help Mario."

Are the alleged statements used for a power amp, but if you notice, the TCG and Prima one don't mention power at all, they merely state it grants skills, the prima guide further elaborates what these skills even are, that being the ability to do a cosmic spin and self sustenance type 1.
American website states it gives him tricks, as in, those "special skills".

The only thing that uses the word power is the instruction manual and smash bros, but ignoring how smash isnt usable, the booklet saying "power" could just as easily be talking about the special abilities, aka, special powers, Mario is granted, doubly so as the context given by the other statements elaborates as to what said powers even entail.

Furthermore, even if we take the cosmic spin as being some ultra special ability that's like a bajillion times above Mario, this wouldn't really check out because Mario's durability gets no such amp implied, and Mario can obviously take hits from these dudes, not to mention third law.

I don't buy this, all this thread looks like is trying to force a preconceived notion that Mario is getting giga amped based on him getting a few new powers, that don't at all effect his strength. You'd be better off just arguing that Galaxy having ultra high feats are just outliers, than trying to push a amp especially when teh dude with the good feats isnt even amped in Galaxy 1

 

[Potemkat]

The only thing that uses the word power is the instruction manual and smash bros, but ignoring how smash isnt usable, the booklet saying "power" could just as easily be talking about the special abilities, aka, special powers, Mario is granted, doubly so as the context given by the other statements elaborates as to what said powers even entail.

The two games also say power.

Furthermore, even if we take the cosmic spin as being some ultra special ability that's like a bajillion times above Mario, this wouldn't really check out because Mario's durability gets no such amp implied, and Mario can obviously take hits from these dudes, not to mention third law.

I don't buy this, all this thread looks like is trying to force a preconceived notion that Mario is getting giga amped based on him getting a few new powers, that don't at all effect his strength. You'd be better off just arguing that Galaxy having ultra high feats are just outliers, than trying to push a amp especially when teh dude with the good feats isnt even amped in Galaxy 1

We see how it affects his strength in gameplay and it makes sense for luma to boost all of Mario.

 

[Chariot190]

The two games also say power.

Power, as in ability, a "Special power", which in this case would be the ability to survive in the vacuum of space, the cosmic spin, and several other things.
Power doesn't always mean strength, in this case, that's evidently not the case.

The game and the various statements, you yourself linked, elaborate power in context isn't strength, but rather abilities, skills, tricks and the like.
You need to post a statement explicitly saying power in the sense of physical attributes, as all further mentions of it would be classified as abilities due to the corroborating evidence and context around the statements given.

We see how it affects his strength in gameplay and it makes sense for luma to boost all of Mario.

Except we don't, the only actual change he gets is a spin move, a spin move that isn't as big a deal as you're making it out to be. His normal jumps can harm the same enemies his spin jump can hurt, and sometimes jumps can defeat enemies that the spin can not, it's case by case, they're circumstantial. You're conflating it being able to do some things his normal attack can not to say it's stronger (Despite no statement stating as such), while ignoring his jump can do things his spin can not, and kill things it can not.
They're comparable but have different purposes. And in terms of gameplay, it plays like Mario but in space brother.
And "makes sense" isn't an argument, what makes sense is Mario gets Luma, it grants him special powers, the special powers do various things, that makes sense because that's what we see and what is stated. Arguing it makes sense despite the evidence presented to the contrary is merely an argument from your own bias.
and the reason he's so strong isn't even his feats, it's due to feats from others who aren't even inherently amped most of the time

 

[NotAMarioFan(lol)]

Lore wise: Mario is always tougher than Bowser Mentally and Physically without power ups

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

How would this affect Bowser tho? Man isn't amped in the first game and is still on par with Mario. Guess we're gonna treat Bowser being able to actually fight Mario in SMG1 as an outlier or something.

As for the other stats for for their base, yeah I think we've got some neat stuff. One of the best ones is probably this Power Star moving and rearranging all these stars. We do have a calc for this feat but for some reason it only takes into account 12 stars being moved, but I can't blame the dude who did the calc for only using 12 because trying to count each individual star on screen (As well as the ones that dragged in from off screen) sounds like a pain.

To be fair, you could make an argument Bowser is shown to be below the level of Grand Stars in his base form. The Galaxy Reactor is powered by a Grand Star, a Galaxy level of power, and the main way you hurt Bowser in the boss fight is having him injure himself on the energy of the reactor.

Power, as in ability, a "Special power", which in this case would be the ability to survive in the vacuum of space, the cosmic spin, and several other things.
Power doesn't always mean strength, in this case, that's evidently not the case.

The game and the various statements, you yourself linked, elaborate power in context isn't strength, but rather abilities, skills, tricks and the like.
You need to post a statement explicitly saying power in the sense of physical attributes, as all further mentions of it would be classified as abilities due to the corroborating evidence and context around the statements given.

Except we don't, the only actual change he gets is a spin move, a spin move that isn't as big a deal as you're making it out to be. His normal jumps can harm the same enemies his spin jump can hurt, and sometimes jumps can defeat enemies that the spin can not, it's case by case, they're circumstantial. You're conflating it being able to do some things his normal attack can not to say it's stronger (Despite no statement stating as such), while ignoring his jump can do things his spin can not, and kill things it can not.
They're comparable but have different purposes. And in terms of gameplay, it plays like Mario but in space brother.
And "makes sense" isn't an argument, what makes sense is Mario gets Luma, it grants him special powers, the special powers do various things, that makes sense because that's what we see and what is stated. Arguing it makes sense despite the evidence presented to the contrary is merely an argument from your own bias.
and the reason he's so strong isn't even his feats, it's due to feats from others who aren't even inherently amped most of the time

In Galaxy 1 Mario doesn’t defeat a single character amped by a Grand Star with anything but his spin attack, though. Bowser, Kaliente, and Bowser Jr, are all defeated through either the spin attack, redirecting their own attacks back at themselves, or throwing items (which you can only grab by pulling them towards you with a spin attack btw lol). Mario doesn’t scale to 3C from fighting regular enemies, it’s only from him fighting Grand Star users, and based on that it definitely implies he needs the Luma to be able to fight them.

I think the only bosses you can defeat without the spin is in Galaxy 2, the mecha on tank tracks has to be ground pounded (but even then, there’s a spin attack-empowered ground pound that’s more efficient to use there), and Bowser who you ground pound meteors back at.

And the rest is just common sense really. We know Luma’s contain power, they’re able to transform into entirely different things (such as Power Stars, for instance, artifacts that literally grant power), Grand Master Luma is treated with reverence by all other Lumas in the series, and Rosalina specifically grants him to Mario in both Galaxy games, knowing he wouldn’t be able to complete his task without him. Mario defeats basically every Grand Star user with the Spin Attack or spin-empowered moves, he can only traverse the galaxy with the Luma’s special abilities.

Everything we know about Lumas, what Mario does in the Galaxy games, the statements about GML, and the abilities he gets off of it point towards GML being an amp.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I thought Bowser was using Grand Stars in the Galaxy games? I could be misremembering, but most bosses throughout the series were amped by them, so assuming the same for Bowser isn't entirely unreasonable if it means ignoring a major potential outlier.

He only is powered by them in Galaxy 2, in Galaxy 1 the galaxies you fight him in are powered by them instead, otherwise in Galaxy 1 it’s just Bowser scrapping in his encounters. He is powered by them in every Galaxy 2 fight

 

[Chariot190]

To be fair, you could make an argument Bowser is shown to be below the level of Grand Stars in his base form. The Galaxy Reactor is powered by a Grand Star, a Galaxy level of power, and the main way you hurt Bowser in the boss fight is having him injure himself on the energy of the reactor.

And? That has nothing to do with Mario being amped, which is the point of this thread, if anything that lone fact discredits you and OP's suggestion once you actually think about what that entails.
But thanks for pointing that out, you essentially just admitted Bowser is not amped, yet, he can also tank the spin attack, and we all know non-amped Bowser scales to Mario normally. That should be a pretty huge red flag for your suggestion. And hurt =/= kill by the way, something that would have to be a requirement for such a magnitude of difference to be legitimate.

In Galaxy 1 Mario doesn’t defeat a single character amped by a Grand Star with anything but his spin attack, though. Bowser, Kaliente, and Bowser Jr, are all defeated through either the spin attack, redirecting their own attacks back at themselves, or throwing items (which you can only grab by pulling them towards you with a spin attack btw lol).

And? The spin attack has properties that enable it do so, it is not an amped, not treated as an amp, not stated to be an amp. All that's happening is you wanting it to be an amp, and grasping at straws for why it could be.

He doesn't defeat any of them? Perhaps not, but defeat doesn't mean they can't be harmed by other means, even if it's not how they die, and as you kindly pointed out, they also take their own attacks back, the same attacks Mario himself can tank.
And the only move that can draw those attacks in? Well, yeah, it has a gravitational pull effect of sorts for the koopa shells and for things like King Caliente that's just due to the fact Mario is hitting them back. Suggesting the spin attack is required ignores why it is, implying it's due to some sort of AP thing is disingenuous to what's actually happening in those instances (And also ignoring how Mario can tank those things anyhow).

Mario doesn’t scale to 3C from fighting regular enemies, it’s only from him fighting Grand Star users, and based on that it definitely implies he needs the Luma to be able to fight them.

Based on nothing, you're conflating utility with AP, that isn't how it works.
Mario can jump on shit too, several bosses that can tank the spin, can also be jumped on or some various other method of attack is harmful. One boss even requires both to be defeated, aka, the boss in question is canonically hurt by both, yet not one shot by the spin, which would be the case if your argument is to be taken at face value.
Not only that but Bowser can tank the spin attack yadda yadda, you get the point.

I think the only bosses you can defeat without the spin is in Galaxy 2, the mecha on tank tracks has to be ground pounded (but even then, there’s a spin attack-empowered ground pound that’s more efficient to use there), and Bowser who you ground pound meteors back at.

You just proved my point, there is no difference, and with Bowser, you have to do that, there is no second spin-related option. Ergo, it's canon.
This means that no, the spin isn't like 1,000,000,000,000,000,000x stronger, it's just used against bosses for gameplay reasons because it's the new cool gimmick so of course it's going to be used a lot?, and when a situation presents itself, where another method would be better, it works.

We have blatant proof of one of Mario's attacks succeeding to harm something that can tank the spin attack, and the only real argument you have to discredit is, is simply the fact Mario uses the spin more often, while handwaving the times that doesn't happen.

And the rest is just common sense really. We know Luma’s contain power, they’re able to transform into entirely different things (such as Power Stars, for instance, artifacts that literally grant power), Grand Master Luma is treated with reverence by all other Lumas in the series, and Rosalina specifically grants him to Mario in both Galaxy games, knowing he wouldn’t be able to complete his task without him. Mario defeats basically every Grand Star user with the Spin Attack or spin-empowered moves, he can only traverse the galaxy with the Luma’s special abilities.

Common sense? That isn't common sense it's personal bias and a preconceived notion clouding your judgment.
We are told exactly what the "power" Mario gains entails. At no point, unless I missed it, in which case post that instead of going "well i think it makes sense", says that Luma grants Mario a spin attack, the ability to survive in space, and the ability to use various objects, three things that help Mario quite a bit and something he wouldn't be able to complete his journey without, but nothing that implicates a stat boost of untold magnitudes. That is it.
If it bolstered his power by literal sextillions or whatever, you would think such a tremendous change is noteworthy, yeah they don't note it at all. And the worst part of all? Even if the spin attack is a ultra powerful attack, Mario still scales to it, even if only in part, due to newton's third law, causing it to scale to durability. the fact he can tank attacks that can tank the spin attack, can fight Bows who is unamped yet can tank it, and so on and so forth, all of which would scale his durability or normal AP to it anyway, unless you want to argue his durability was amped by magnitudes too? But that isn't stated at all either, and I'd even argue the exact opposite is showcased with unamped characters like Bows being able to harm him.

Luma's being able to transform means **** all in regards to amping, that's a literal nonfactor, that matters just about as much as Luma's being able to fly.
Luma's contain power, but bestowing that power, in the sense of AP, isn't stated at any point, and the power they give is clarified, and you also have to ask, how do they utilize that power? It sure isn't a basic AP-type thing.
Does Mario defeat every major enemy with a spin attack? That isn't even entirely true, you even pointed out an example where he doesn't, a major example at that, and the mere fact such an example exists yet no concrete statement saying the spin attack is a buff that eclipses him normally, means you don't actually have an argument here, you're just assuming it's a buff and ignoring the contradictions that say it isn't.

Mario defeats basically every Grand Star user with the Spin Attack or spin-empowered moves, he can only traverse the galaxy with the Luma’s special abilities.

Yes, mario can only traverse the galaxy with the help of Luma because it enables him to use launch stars, and to survive in the vacuum of space, something that is pointed out directly. Suggesting that traversal of all things is due to AP, is again a nonfactor and may as well be derailing.
"Basically" is not all, and if it isn't all, then without a concrete statement saying as much to begin with, it simply isn't the case.

Everything we know about Lumas, what Mario does in the Galaxy games, the statements about GML, and the abilities he gets off of it point towards GML being an amp.

It doesn't, at all. You're forcing your own headcanon into this.
We are told exactly what the Luma does for Mario, none of which state it gives him a stat buff.
Everything we know about Luma's has almost no real relevance to this, to begin with, and shouldn't even be mentioned as it's totally unrelated to what Mario is gifted.
What Mario does in the games is use his cool new move a lot, while supplementing it with his normal attacks like a ground pound, jump, and more should the enemy in question require, well, jumping, or a method of an aerial attack, and even then, Mario has in fact used non-cosmic spin attacks to harm various bosses that can in fact, tank his spin attack as a scripted part of the fight (meaning it's canon).

He only is powered by them in Galaxy 2, in Galaxy 1 the galaxies you fight him in are powered by them instead, otherwise in Galaxy 1 it’s just Bowser scrapping in his encounters. He is powered by them in every Galaxy 2 fight

And yet he can tank the spin attacks

Hard disagree, all I'm seeing is people think it should be an amp, and then extrapolating it to be one based on out of context lines or cherry picking basic gameplay while ignoring the times that isn't the case, all while ignoring what actually happened is elaborated upon (as in, there is no subjectivity here, it's straight-up not something that can be assumed), atop there even being a few contradictions to it, and if no such statement exists in the first place, those "contradictions" no longer become contradictions, but rather just the way it works.
Find an actual statement that says it buffed him, it's that easy, CRT would be accepted in an instant if such a thing exists, as it stands, this ain't it chief.
That or argue the feats he scales to in Galaxy are just outliers to begin with instead of doing mental gymnastics to headcanon some shit into the game.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I will reply to this later, I wasn’t expecting such a long reply and will be busy for a little, but I do have counterpoints.

 

[Chariot190]

Dude, just post a statement it's an actual buff, we don't need to do this mental gymnastic bullshit.
As it stands you're basically just inserting headcanon into a place it doesn't belong and handwaving everything that might contradict your bias.
All you have to do is post a statement saying it's a physical amp, that's it, and this would get accepted with zero issue and be able to be applied nigh instantly, without it though, this shit ain't ever gonna cut it. There's no in between here, either a statement exists, or it doesn't.

 

[Liquid_Bigb0ss]

He only used Grand Stars to amp himself in the second game, in the first one he never personally uses them outside of sticking them into his galaxy reactor.

Doesn’t bowser literally drop a grand star whenever you beat him in mario galaxy 1? It’s been a very long time since I played those games but couldn’t that kinda be “implied” he’s being amped by them??
Edit: ignore this for now, watching all the bowser fights rn

 

[Chariot190]

Doesn’t bowser literally drop a grand star whenever you beat him in mario galaxy 1? It’s been a very long time since I played those games but couldn’t that kinda be “implied” he’s being amped by them??

The generator you fight on drops them, not he himself. The stars were used to power the galaxy reactors, not himself.

 

[Liquid_Bigb0ss]

The generator you fight on drops them, not he himself. The stars were used to power the galaxy reactors, not himself.

Yeah I just started checking for myself right now.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Ah yes, of course this thread would be made despite constantly being argued against a million times over in the past by the squad that likes to attack Mario feats for some reason.

My thing is why is it suddenly okay to use the guides you guys apparently think are so contradictory when it benefits you? Get rid of the guides. Even if it's just "supporting evidence" it absolutely should be disregarded if they had to be disregarded in every other thread. And beyond a non-canon profile and these contradictory sources, we have only the games to rely on, which don't tell us that it's a power amp at all. It's definitely not a speed amp either in any case. Amd like Chariot has said plenty times, Mario still scales to it regardless.

It's funny anyways because Mario has overpowered Lumas before (Aces has like every character capable of overpowering each other with the power of their shots which includes Rosa and the Luma) and Bowser has also managed to trap them and even utilize a form of them that should be above their base output in various instances that Mario could beat in base (Power Stars).

I'm not going to touch this thread further. I trust the people with sense will be able to defend this without my aid. I can't deal with debates much due to anxiety.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Also if we like using the Japanese shit to prove things true or false then we have to acknowledge the Infinite universe statements and the Worlds in Galaxy 2 being universes in Japanese but you guys will NEVER let that happen. Wonder why...

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Ah yes, of course this thread would be made despite constantly being argued against a million times over in the past by the squad that likes to attack Mario feats for some reason.

My thing is why is it suddenly okay to use the guides you guys apparently think are so contradictory when it benefits you? Get rid of the guides. Even if it's just "supporting evidence" it absolutely should be disregarded if they had to be disregarded in every other thread. And beyond a non-canon profile and these contradictory sources, we have only the games to rely on, which don't tell us that it's a power amp at all. It's definitely not a speed amp either in any case. Amd like Chariot has said plenty times, Mario still scales to it regardless.

I still plan to comment on this later but just wanted to say something.

Potemkat is a new user I’d assume, they just joined on the new year only a couple weeks ago, they probably aren’t fully aware of the Prima Guide’s usability. I specifically did not mention the Guide in any argument I have or plan to make.

I’m not sure where the “you guys” sentiment is coming from as if there’s a colloquial group of Mario Haters working together to downgrade the verse. Me and Fuji are friends offsite since before we even started using VSBW frequently, we plan revisions & downgrades for different verses together and frequently ask one another’s help to review topics. She just happened to get interested in Mario after I talked with her about some of my ideas for profile revisions, and she wanted to revise haxx. There’s no grand Mario downgrade group prepared to cut away the verse until there’s nothing left, at least not one I’m aware of and not one I’m a part of.

Also if we like using the Japanese shit to prove things true or false then we have to acknowledge the Infinite universe statements and the Worlds in Galaxy 2 being universes in Japanese but you guys will NEVER let that happen. Wonder why...

Because not everyone is aware of this. I haven’t scrounged every single line of dialogue in every Japanese version of a Mario game to check for every potential inconsistency and difference yet. We only really just recently started learning about the differences between versions the last year or so in terms of a versus sense. I wasn’t aware of this yet because I hadn’t scrounged the Japanese version yet. In fact, while I was preparing a CRT, and I wanted to cross reference a Japanese manual with the American one for SMG2, I found out a Japanese one doesn’t seem to exist, only a tutorial cd.

If there’s something valuable in the Japanese version that can legitimately be used for scaling, make a CRT for it, if it’s valid in whatever it’s used for and scaled to it’ll go through.

 

[Potemkat]

Ah yes, of course this thread would be made despite constantly being argued against a million times over in the past by the squad that likes to attack Mario feats for some reason.

My thing is why is it suddenly okay to use the guides you guys apparently think are so contradictory when it benefits you?

I didn't know about that... Why are you agressive..'

It's funny anyways because Mario has overpowered Lumas before (Aces has like every character capable of overpowering each other with the power of their shots which includes Rosa and the Luma) and Bowser has also managed to trap them and even utilize a form of them that should be above their base output in various instances that Mario could beat in base (Power Stars).

I dont think Mario Tennis is a good comparison. He can't harm Rosalina at all in Mario Galaxy; and obviously you can't make a character beat everyone in a sport game (random koopa can beat Bowser in it even when it's not true)

Also if we like using the Japanese shit to prove things true or false then we have to acknowledge the Infinite universe statements and the Worlds in Galaxy 2 being universes in Japanese but you guys will NEVER let that happen. Wonder why...

I've played most Mario games, but I don't really remember anything about worlds being different universes.. i don't think it makes sense too

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Dude, just post a statement it's an actual buff, we don't need to do this mental gymnastic bullshit.
As it stands you're basically just inserting headcanon into a place it doesn't belong and handwaving everything that might contradict your bias.
All you have to do is post a statement saying it's a physical amp, that's it, and this would get accepted with zero issue and be able to be applied nigh instantly, without it though, this shit ain't ever gonna cut it. There's no in between here, either a statement exists, or it doesn't.

Alright, fine, I mean, most of it was already posted earlier but people are choosing to gloss over it.

The Super Mario Galaxy 2 manual states that the Baby Luma / Grand Master Luma (I am going to call him GML from here on for brevity) grants Mario "the power of the stars", and upon absorbing (?) GML, the game itself says that Mario begins overflowing with power. GML granting Mario the power of the stars isn't just mentioned in the manual though, it's also mentioned in-game by two Lumas right after Bowser kidnaps Peach, supporting that the Luma is granting these powers.

I went to check for a Japanese manual to check for translational errors, but as it turns out, from my research, there is no Japanese manual, only a NA and a EU manual. I checked the EU manual as well to see if there were any differences, and both have essentially the same wordage of the Luma granting Mario the power of the stars, with the European version even noting he needs these powers to travel the universe. For more external sources, the NA website has a bio for GML, which says that his abilities are powered by the stars.

Why is this important? "The Power of the Stars" is terminology used within the series itself to refer to being granted power by another source, in fact, Bowser himself says the same thing within Galaxy 2, stating that he was granted the power of the stars, referring to the power of the Grand Star he's empowered by. While the power granted case by case seems to be different, the term itself means the same thing every time, the character is being amped.

This term comes up several other times within the series as well, such as in Mario Party DS, where it states the protagonist uses the power of the stars provided by the stars they collected to fight the upcoming boss. In Mario Party 6, this term comes up again when the protagonists want to use the stars' power to stop Twila & Brighton's feud. In Mario 64 Bowser claims multiple times that he's empowered by the Power Stars and is using their power, and even seems despaired when he still loses despite their power. This point is also fairly minor, the Koopa the Quick even mentions that the power of the stars provided by the Power Stars he's been collecting in SM64 could be amplifying his speed. (If these M64 lines are different in the Japanese translation, let me know).

The Power of the Stars is also mentioned in TTYD in regards to the power granted by the Crystal Shards, though I'll leave those out of my argument as I consider PM & Mario separate. There's also points about Lumas being able to provide power & abilities as Sparks in M+R:SoH, including 60% power increases and other wild abilities, but those are Rabbids & Luma fusions, and the Mario + Rabbids series also seems to not quite be mainline, so I'll leave it out of this as well. I am also aware that there's statements of GML providing Mario with star power in Smash as well, but... it's Smash and shouldn't be used either, but if anything this would just be extra supporting evidence of statements of the Power of the Stars & Lumas granting powers from similar sources.

Essentially, there's a statement in both the American and the European manual of SMG2 that states GML grants Mario "the power of the stars" while he's under his care, a set of two Lumas repeat this sentiment, and within the same game Bowser uses the same "power of the stars" terminology to refer to the power he's granted by the Grand Star, which I'm sure nobody here will fight against being an amp, its the entire reason there's 3C keys in the first place, and its stated Mario needs these powers on his adventure.

Considering this Luma is pretty blatantly the same one from SMG1, that would mean he was also amped by it during Galaxy 1's events. This would pretty neatly explain why Mario is suddenly massively more powerful in the Galaxy games compared to the rest of the series.

 

[Chariot190]

The Super Mario Galaxy 2 manual states that the Baby Luma / Grand Master Luma (I am going to call him GML from here on for brevity) grants Mario "the power of the stars", and upon absorbing (?) GML,

And what does that entail? Power of the stars could be referring to special abilities. Everytime, and I do mean every time it's elaborated upon, they do not mention physical strength. As mentioned previously, power doesn't inherently mean strength, given the clarification provided elsewhere, unless they specify, this means nothing. Also, this scan is quite bad all things considered because the other scan posted in the OP explicitly points out what "power of the stars" means.

the game itself says that Mario begins overflowing with power.

That actually doesn't say that. It says a power courses through him. The existence of the "a" implicates power as in an ability or attribute. This is basic linguistics. If it was talking about physical strength, linguistically, it wouldn't use an "a" to denote that, that's just how english works. I'm going to go and say this actually contradicts your point. Also again, this means nothing, we're told what the power entails, you're headcanoning it to mean physical strength, but we're told it's the ability to survive in space, traverse the cosmos and new moves and shit.
english major btw
This still, is just you inserting your headcanon where it doesn't belong.

GML granting Mario the power of the stars isn't just mentioned in the manual though, it's also mentioned in-game by two Lumas right after Bowser kidnaps Peach, supporting that the Luma is granting these powers.

As above, "power of the stars" has been elaborated upon, it isn't said to include physical strength.

I went to check for a Japanese manual to check for translational errors, but as it turns out, from my research, there is no Japanese manual, only a NA and a EU manual.

Cool, so that means we toss them to begin with.

I checked the EU manual as well to see if there were any differences, and both have essentially the same wordage of the Luma granting Mario the power of the stars, with the European version even noting he needs these powers to travel the universe.

Cool? You're literally shooting yourself in the foot here, do you not realize that? The very fact it elaborates that he needs them to travel the universe all but confirms it's not talking about physical strength, but rather the very abilities it clarified as to being what it grants elsewhere. Being able to ******* punch hard doesn't help you traverse the universe, but being able to use pull stars, survive in space, and more? Well, that does.
Again, another statement that falls to actually say physical strength, but rather the opposite if anything.

For more external sources, the NA website has a bio for GML, which says that his abilities are powered by the stars.

So not physical strength, but rather abilities, abilities that have been listed off before and didn't include physical strength. That's just more confirmation, in fact "abilities powered by the stars", is telling power of the stars can refer to, well, abilities, simply obtained through the stars.

Why is this important? "The Power of the Stars" is terminology used within the series itself to refer to being granted power by another source, in fact, Bowser himself says the same thing within Galaxy 2, stating that he was granted the power of the stars, referring to the power of the Grand Star he's empowered by. While the power granted case by case seems to be different, the term itself means the same thing every time, the character is being amped.

Yeah, we call that a false equivalence Kirb. Bowser was using his Grand Star to empower himself with the sole intent of power. While Mario, not using a Grand Star but rather a Luma was given power of the stars, but in his case it's clarified to mean various special abilities and never once stated to include a stat boost.
And comparing a Grand Star to a Luma is a huge no-go brother, we don't even use Power Stars like that, why would we be assuming a Luma is somehow working on the same principles? That's again, you inserting your headcanon into things.

The very fact you just admitted that "the power granted case by case seems different" should be enough to tell you this is a nonargument. And also falls to acknowledge how Bowser isn't even amped in 1, yet can tank mario attacks all the same, which is pretty ******* telling given Mario isn't the person with the feats in Galaxy 1, Bowser is. And in 2? Mario literally uses his normal attacks in the fight against him too.

This term comes up several other times within the series as well, such as in Mario Party DS, where it states the protagonist uses the power of the stars provided by the stars they collected to fight the upcoming boss. In Mario Party 6, this term comes up again when the protagonists want to use the stars' power to stop Twila & Brighton's feud. In Mario 64 Bowser claims multiple times that he's empowered by the Power Stars and is using their power, and even seems despaired when he still loses despite their power. This point is also fairly minor, the Koopa the Quick even mentions that the power of the stars provided by the Power Stars he's been collecting in SM64 could be amplifying his speed. (If these M64 lines are different in the Japanese translation, let me know).

Are you seriously using other games where they're collecting things that aren't even a ******* Luma to conflate the two?
Congratulations, Power Stars seem to amp characters, we've known this since uh, 64 I think?
This doesn't at all corroborate Luma physically amping Mario, he isn't a power star, and "power of the stars" is literally just a basic english word structure meaning, well, power of the stars? Like what else would you want them to say?

You know what we call this? Confirmation bias, you're looking for similar wording used elsewhere, and then saying they must be the same in both cases despite the fact not only is it two, even 3, different things, but we know in Mario's case it isn't the same. We're told what the power of the stars entails in his case, and funnily enough, the very fact Mario is granted special abilities, hard confirmed, yet all these other dudes using Power Stars don't get them, all but confirms that the Luma's "powers" and the Power Stars' "powers" grant varying things. Unless you're suggesting that everyone powered by a Grand or Power Star also has self-sustenance type 1, the cosmic spin, the ability to use launch stars, and more, despite the fact that has never been the case.
But you do you I guess.

The Power of the Stars is also mentioned in TTYD in regards to the power granted by the Crystal Shards, though I'll leave those out of my argument as I consider PM & Mario separate. There's also points about Lumas being able to provide power & abilities as Sparks in M+R:SoH, including 60% power increases and other wild abilities, but those are Rabbids & Luma fusions, and the Mario + Rabbids series also seems to not quite be mainline, so I'll leave it out of this as well. I am also aware that there's statements of GML providing Mario with star power in Smash as well, but... it's Smash and shouldn't be used either, but if anything this would just be extra supporting evidence of statements of the Power of the Stars & Lumas granting powers from similar sources.

As above, you're really grasping at straws.

Essentially, there's a statement in both the American and the European manual of SMG2 that states GML grants Mario "the power of the stars" while he's under his care, a set of two Lumas repeat this sentiment, and within the same game Bowser uses the same "power of the stars" terminology to refer to the power he's granted by the Grand Star, which I'm sure nobody here will fight against being an amp, its the entire reason there's 3C keys in the first place, and its stated Mario needs these powers on his adventure.

Sigh, maybe you haven't taken the hint. I do not give a shit, they can say it ten, twenty, even a hundred times, and it will never matter.
We are told what it entails when Mario gains "the power of the stars", he's gifted several special abilities by the Luma. This is what it means, this is what we're told it means, using a bunch of different examples that don't even include what Mario gains already shows us they're different, but that's ignoring it's a false equivalence given the varying mechanics of the objects in question.

WIthin the same game? newsflash, Bowser isn't at all amped in Galaxy 1, as in, the very game that establishes Luma and the fact that Mario "gains the power of the stars". The main villain, isn't at all different from how he usually is, and yet he's tanking hits from Mario and performing his own wacky feats, unamped.
Bowser is in fact amped in Galaxy 2 though, but at that point it's to late, they've already established that Mario's physical qualities don't veer to far off from the usual, and even in Galaxy 2 he hurts Bowser with attacks that aren't the cosmic spin, aka the only new move Luma grants Mario in terms of physical prowess. Aka there is no huge amp for Mario, the only hard confirmed empowered ****** gets hurt by him all the same, you could argue Mario fighting Bowser is an outlier for him, but doing mental gymnastics and seeing shit that simply isn't there isn't how you do it.

Considering this Luma is pretty blatantly the same one from SMG1, that would mean he was also amped by it during Galaxy 1's events. This would pretty neatly explain why Mario is suddenly massively more powerful in the Galaxy games compared to the rest of the series.

That's honestly half the reason why it isn't an amp.

All you did was make false equivalences, ignore how the "power of the stars" is already clarified in Mario's case, took examples with completely different objects and went "they use similar wording" (no shit, what else would you want them to say?), to argue that because thing 1 amps, thing 2 must also amp while handwaving the clarification given while also ignoring how they EXPLICITLY gain DIFFERENT abilities, as in they're explicitly and demonstrably NOT the same thing. You then ignore how Galaxy 1, Mario can fight those who aren't amped and those he fights with normally can tank his, according to you, trillions of times amped attacks just fine, when if he wasn't amped, that wouldn't be the case. You then argue because this OTHER dude was amped in Galaxy 2 that means Mario must be amped to fight him, again, ignoring how the opposite of that is also true where Mario can fight an unamped version of him in the very game that establishes he gains special powers by the Luma, we call that cherry picking, if anything Mario fighting him is an outlier, not evidence of an amp.
And "neatly explain", the word you're looking for is convenient, it would be a convenient explanation, but just because it'd be helpful doesn't mean it's true.

Given all this, I'm still going to have to hard disagree, in effect, all you did was basically post statements of Luma's and guides saying the Luma granted Mario powers, which we already know, issue is you trying to force a preconceived notion that power includes physical statistics despite the game elaborating otherwise. You're still also ignoring the multiple instances where an amp doesn't make sense.
Post an actual statement saying Mario's attacks, strength or (physical) power got amped. Without such a statement, and the existence of 1 that lists what it means, all this amounts to is headcanon.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

And what does that entail? Power of the stars could be referring to special abilities. Everytime, and I do mean every time it's elaborated upon, they do not mention physical strength. As mentioned previously, power doesn't inherently mean strength, given the clarification provided elsewhere, unless they specify, this means nothing. Also, this scan is quite bad all things considered because the other scan posted in the OP explicitly points out what "power of the stars" means.

As above, "power of the stars" has been elaborated upon, it isn't said to include physical strength.

"Power of the Stars" in its usage throughout the series, has never once meant "just special abilities". It has always meant bestowing power / amplifying, in every single other usage of it across the series. There's no reason for it to suddenly mean one completely different thing in this instance when it consistently means something else throughout the rest of the series.

Cool, so that means we toss them to begin with.

No, it doesn't mean we toss them? Not sure where you got this idea from.

We only toss the NA material if there is contradictory Japanese material, as the Japanese material is the primary source. In this case, there IS no Japanese material, and thus, nothing for the NA/EU versions to contradict, thus making it the primary material. Unless you can provide an original Japanese source to show this is contradictory, they cannot be tossed / ignored.

Cool? You're literally shooting yourself in the foot here, do you not realize that? The very fact it elaborates that he needs them to travel the universe all but confirms it's not talking about physical strength, but rather the very abilities it clarified as to being what it grants elsewhere. Being able to ******* punch hard doesn't help you traverse the universe, but being able to use pull stars, survive in space, and more? Well, that does.
Again, another statement that falls to actually say physical strength, but rather the opposite if anything.

Not really, it still explicitly states that Mario would be unable to traverse the universe without GML.

You know what "Power of the Stars" has been stated to enhance before? Speed. How does Mario use GML to traverse the universe? Launch Stars. We wouldn't be able to reasonably scale Mario's regular reaction/movement speeds to his reactions & speeds with the Launch Stars, something that he's expressly stated to need GML to do, could we? If anything it just continues to prove my point that Mario is amplified by GML.

So not physical strength, but rather abilities, abilities that have been listed off before and didn't include physical strength. That's just more confirmation, in fact "abilities powered by the stars", is telling power of the stars can refer to, well, abilities, simply obtained through the stars.

Abilities that are stated to be powered by the stars. The stars which are stated to give power. That would mean these abilities are given & empowered by the stars. Doesn't really contradict anything here.

Yeah, we call that a false equivalence Kirb. Bowser was using his Grand Star to empower himself with the sole intent of power. While Mario, not using a Grand Star but rather a Luma was given power of the stars, but in his case it's clarified to mean various special abilities and never once stated to include a stat boost.
And comparing a Grand Star to a Luma is a huge no-go brother, we don't even use Power Stars like that, why would we be assuming a Luma is somehow working on the same principles? That's again, you inserting your headcanon into things.

The very fact you just admitted that "the power granted case by case seems different" should be enough to tell you this is a nonargument. And also falls to acknowledge how Bowser isn't even amped in 1, yet can tank mario attacks all the same, which is pretty ******* telling given Mario isn't the person with the feats in Galaxy 1, Bowser is. And in 2? Mario literally uses his normal attacks in the fight against him too.

??? You aren't making a point here. Bowser is empowered by a Grand Star, yeah. He also explicitly uses the literal exact same terminology, "the power of the stars", that is not only used to refer to what GML grants Mario, but also what other major power sources throughout the series use.

The Grand Star's only feat is creating and sustaining a galaxy, and its stated superiority to Power Stars. Lumas can create galaxies and are scaled to galaxy level because of that fact. Lumas can also transform into Power Stars. Lumas can clearly contain galaxy levels of power if we scale them to that in the first place, and they can literally transform into Power Stars, which grant the power of the stars in the first place. Why is it odd to assume that Lumas work on different principles and can't grant power, when they're stated to be able to grant the same "power of the stars" that Power/Grand Stars can give, and can also give abilities that are powered by the stars, just like the other two can?

Yes, the power granted case by case is different, solely in the amount of power provided by the source & what abilities it grants. Power Stars aren't as powerful as Grand Stars, but they still undeniably amp the user with "the power of the stars" and provide the person using them with new abilities don't they? Different power sources can grant different amounts of power and different abilities, what a stunning revelation.

Are you seriously using other games where they're collecting things that aren't even a ******* Luma to conflate the two?
Congratulations, Power Stars seem to amp characters, we've known this since uh, 64 I think?
This doesn't at all corroborate Luma physically amping Mario, he isn't a power star, and "power of the stars" is literally just a basic english word structure meaning, well, power of the stars? Like what else would you want them to say?

You know what we call this? Confirmation bias, you're looking for similar wording used elsewhere, and then saying they must be the same in both cases despite the fact not only is it two, even 3, different things, but we know in Mario's case it isn't the same. We're told what the power of the stars entails in his case, and funnily enough, the very fact Mario is granted special abilities, hard confirmed, yet all these other dudes using Power Stars don't get them, all but confirms that the Luma's "powers" and the Power Stars' "powers" grant varying things. Unless you're suggesting that everyone powered by a Grand or Power Star also has self-sustenance type 1, the cosmic spin, the ability to use launch stars, and more, despite the fact that has never been the case.
But you do you I guess.

Yes. They are all stated to grant "the power of the stars" consistently. Lumas can turn into Power Stars.

No shit "power of the stars" is a basic english word structure, but big shocker, word structures mean things, and what do you know, this word structure is only ever used in a specific context within Mario, to refer to being amplified/bestowed powers by an artifact.

It's not just "similar wording" as you want to deflect it as so badly, it is the exact same wording.

No, I'm not sure why you can't seem to understand this concept, but different sources can provide different levels of power, and also give different abilities, while still working under the same power source. This is kind of a basic concept among franchises, and is the same case here. Power Stars, Grand Stars, and Lumas can all grant the power of the stars, they just grant different levels of power and different abilities. Power Stars have sealing abilities and are composed of mini-stars which can erase the existence of things, but still provide the power of the stars. Grand Stars can increase your size, create a variety of things (black holes, galaxies, dark matter, etc), but still provide the power of the stars. Lumas allow you to use new techniques and survive in space, but still provide the power of the stars. Different things can provide different things and different levels of power but still ******* provide power. Novel concept.

Sigh, maybe you haven't taken the hint. I do not give a shit, they can say it ten, twenty, even a hundred times, and it will never matter.
We are told what it entails when Mario gains "the power of the stars", he's gifted several special abilities by the Luma. This is what it means, this is what we're told it means, using a bunch of different examples that don't even include what Mario gains already shows us they're different, but that's ignoring it's a false equivalence given the varying mechanics of the objects in question.

You can choose to be willfully ignorant and sigh and bemoan all you'd like, but what you're stating still isn't disproving anything. Power sources that grant the power of the stars can grant abilities just as fine as well. The GML granting Mario abilities doesn't disprove that he's also amped by it.

WIthin the same game? newsflash, Bowser isn't at all amped in Galaxy 1, as in, the very game that establishes Luma and the fact that Mario "gains the power of the stars". The main villain, isn't at all different from how he usually is, and yet he's tanking hits from Mario and performing his own wacky feats, unamped.
Bowser is in fact amped in Galaxy 2 though, but at that point it's to late, they've already established that Mario's physical qualities don't veer to far off from the usual, and even in Galaxy 2 he hurts Bowser with attacks that aren't the cosmic spin, aka the only new move Luma grants Mario in terms of physical prowess. Aka there is no huge amp for Mario, the only hard confirmed empowered ****** gets hurt by him all the same, you could argue Mario fighting Bowser is an outlier for him, but doing mental gymnastics and seeing shit that simply isn't there isn't how you do it.

Newsflash, you don't seem to know what you're talking about. Galaxy 2 is what establishes that Mario gains "the power of the stars" from GML, and Galaxy 2 is the exact same game where Bowser states the Grand Star amped him and gave him "the power of the stars". In fact the game tells you these things 3 minutes apart of one another. Please cut the snark out, I'm really getting quite sick of it.

Somehow I think there being 3 fights in Galaxy 1, all of which Bowser loses and could reasonably be counted as outliers, is more reasonable compared to 12 different instances of Mario supposedly fighting amped people far, far beyond his consistent regular level of power while supposedly unamped himself, which then causes Bowser to scale to him, and then circular scale to the entire verse.

That's honestly half the reason why it isn't an amp.

All you did was make false equivalences, ignore how the "power of the stars" is already clarified in Mario's case, took examples with completely different objects and went "they use similar wording" (no shit, what else would you want them to say?), to argue that because thing 1 amps, thing 2 must also amp while handwaving the clarification given while also ignoring how they EXPLICITLY gain DIFFERENT abilities, as in they're explicitly and demonstrably NOT the same thing. You then ignore how Galaxy 1, Mario can fight those who aren't amped and those he fights with normally can tank his, according to you, trillions of times amped attacks just fine, when if he wasn't amped, that wouldn't be the case. You then argue because this OTHER dude was amped in Galaxy 2 that means Mario must be amped to fight him, again, ignoring how the opposite of that is also true where Mario can fight an unamped version of him in the very game that establishes he gains special powers by the Luma, we call that cherry picking, if anything Mario fighting him is an outlier, not evidence of an amp.
And "neatly explain", the word you're looking for is convenient, it would be a convenient explanation, but just because it'd be helpful doesn't mean it's true.

Given all this, I'm still going to have to hard disagree, in effect, all you did was basically post statements of Luma's and guides saying the Luma granted Mario powers, which we already know, issue is you trying to force a preconceived notion that power includes physical statistics despite the game elaborating otherwise. You're still also ignoring the multiple instances where an amp doesn't make sense.
Post an actual statement saying Mario's attacks, strength or (physical) power got amped. Without such a statement, and the existence of 1 that lists what it means, all this amounts to is headcanon.

You can continue to ignore, deflect and claim headcanon because you disagree all you like, but you haven't shown anything to disprove that Mario is being amped by GML. Meanwhile I've shown that the GML is stated to grant Mario "the power of the stars", a phrase that throughout this franchises' 30+ year history has only meant one thing, bestowed power. You can't just claim that this specific wordage being used multiple times to refer to what the GML does across multiple sources, in and out of the game itself, suddenly means something completely different to what the phrase has always meant without good proof, and you haven't provided anything besides saying that "oh it only means the abilities!", when there's no specific proof of that fact. These abilities themselves have also been stated to be literally powered by the stars as well, which still wouldn't change anything anyways.

The fact that this answer also happens to be the most "convenient" one is just a plus.

 

[Chariot190]

Spoiler

"Power of the Stars" in its usage throughout the series, has never once meant "just special abilities".

Except in this case? It literally lists off what it means, multiple times, it consistently lists off the same things, and whenever they go and explain what GML does for Mario, they mention the same things, but never once what you keep asserting it does.
You say always, but this very instance is such a time it's different (I can think of other times actually anyway). We are flat out told Power of the Stars in GML's case is special abilities and tricks, you're extrapolating it beyond what's granted.

t has always meant bestowing power / amplifying, in every single other usage of it across the series.

Key word, "other". I don't give a **** what random examples, that aren't at all the same, you can find, all that matters is this instance, and in this instance, you're effectively just making things up and taking your own preconceived notions and running with it, unless you find a statement that actually says as much, to bad, it doesn't matter how much you think it should be, it isn't until proven to be true.

There's no reason for it to suddenly mean one completely different thing in this instance when it consistently means something else throughout the rest of the series.

No reason? Except the very fact it LISTS what it does, and the things it lists ARE THINGS THAT ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM EVERY OTHER TIME.
This isn't even a matter of debate, it is objectively different. We are told exactly what it does, and the things it's stated to do are different from every time.
So yes, whether you like it or not, it's different.

No, it doesn't mean we toss them? Not sure where you got this idea from.

Yes actually, that's exactly what it means. If the information is not presented in the original Japanese material, it means **** all. This is no different than using random english only lines for anime or manga. It's effectively made-up bullshit, we'd never use the english only line of Piccolo saying the special beam cannon is light speed even though it doesnt exactly contradict the japanese. But in reality, that's exactly what it means, if it says something different, it's contradictory by not saying what was originally said to begin with. We do this for games, manga and just about everything.

We only toss the NA material if there is contradictory Japanese material, as the Japanese material is the primary source. In this case, there IS no Japanese material, and thus, nothing for the NA/EU versions to contradict, thus making it the primary material. Unless you can provide an original Japanese source to show this is contradictory, they cannot be tossed / ignored.

That's even worse, it's not even a mistranslation, it's actually completely made up fluff made by some desk jockey at Nintendo lmao.
This is like using some japanese blurb written for some promotional add for someone like Batman. It wouldn't be used ever.

Not really, it still explicitly states that Mario would be unable to traverse the universe without GML.

Yes, no shit, do you have anything new to add? The very fact it explicitly states that is evidence it isn't a power boost.
Or do you think Mario punching hard is why he's able to travel the cosmos now instead of the space travel and ability to survive in space, break free from gravity and so on it's stated to grant and has, on record, specified as much?
That's a rhetorical question, the answer is of course the latter is the reason and suggesting otherwise is asinine. He can't travel the universe without GML because GML gives him funny meme abilities that enable him to do it.

You know what "Power of the Stars" has been stated to enhance before? Speed. How does Mario use GML to traverse the universe? Launch Stars.

Except this isn't an argument, I'm honestly baffled. We are TOLD what GML gives, and we are told exactly what it gives Mario to travel the cosmos, the ability to break gravity, use stars, and survive in space, 3 abilities absolutely crucial to moving through the cosmos, and abilities he wouldn't be able to complete the game without and thus GML. Aka, not speed, it's a nonfactor and isn't why it's saying this, you're twisting and misinterpreting what it's saying, very blatantly at that.

Maybe you don't quite understand, but the powers Luma grants are objectively and demonstrably different than your numerous examples, the fact it has blatant differences among them means comparing them doesn't work, especially not randomly assuming it's granting untold facets of it to Mario. He gets what he's stated to get, nothing more, nothing less, unless you feel like arguing every single Mario character who has ever had a Power Star gets space travel, space survivability, the cosmic spin and more too, this is blatant double standard hypocrisy that you're only doing because you want it to be true and are grasping at every straw you possibly can while you ignoring everything to the contrary. Stop, it's becoming an actual nuisance.

Oh and by the way, the ability to use launch stars =/= Speed amp. Mario still has to react on landing, and he even does a cool flip, which he does, every time, literally every time.
All Luma is granting him is the ability to use the device that launches him, nothing more, nothing less, unless you can find a statement saying Luma bolsters Mario's speed, but given you can't even find a statement that says it boosts his physical attack...

And, once again, Bowser can keep up with Mario who is comparable to Mario's usual speed, despite not being amped, which would be impossible if Mario was suddenly magnitudes faster than him in Galaxy.
Stop making false equalevences between completely different instances.

Abilities that are stated to be powered by the stars. The stars which are stated to give power. That would mean these abilities are given & empowered by the stars. Doesn't really contradict anything here.

Again, you're inserting headcanon and confirmation bias.
No Kirb, this isn't how it works. We already know the powers Luma grants vary from what Power Stars grant, this is not up for debate, this is demonstrably true, Mario is given abilities not seen in any other instance involving "power of the stars", all the while what's stated he gains, doesn't list what you keep trying to push. He gets what he's said to get because the fact he gains different things makes cross-scaling that shit impossible, it'd be nothing but your arbitrary assumptions.

And no, once again, we know what the "abilities of the stars" in question are, we are told what they are, and we see what they are.
And yes, it does contradict it, "abilities" isn't an insane physical stat boost. The fact it specifies "abilities", plural, as being empowered by them, merely tells us Mario gained abilities, and his abilities given are basically drawn from star power, but we have to ask what those abilities entail. Which is, you guessed it, the things it actually says he got, not the things you think he got.
Plus nobody says "abilities" when talking about physical empowerment, they wouldn't word it like that.

??? You aren't making a point here. Bowser is empowered by a Grand Star, yeah. He also explicitly uses the literal exact same terminology, "the power of the stars", that is not only used to refer to what GML grants Mario, but also what other major power sources throughout the series use.

Failing to understand that point isn't my fault, that's a personal issue.
The point is Bowser using a completely different artifact whose sole purpose is to grant power, is not the same as a Luma granting Mario a variety of special skills and tricks, this is exceptionally straightforward.

Terminology? Dude, it's basic english. Power doesn't always mean strength, and we know in this case it involves powers, as in abilities, in this case it is specified to grants special tricks and skills and abilities instead, abilities which have been clarified at that, multiple times.
Does Bowser get the cosmic spin when he used his Grand Star? No, he didn't. Dio Mario? Yes, he did. Among other things. This is what we call a false equivalence, and it's basically all your arguments have amounted to.
there's been times where "power of the star" gets used to just convey a literal face value meaning of a power a star due to basic english structure having that being the most suitable string of words to convey the meaning of a sentence, like Cortez.

The Grand Star's only feat is creating and sustaining a galaxy, and its stated superiority to Power Stars. Lumas can create galaxies and are scaled to galaxy level because of that fact. Lumas can also transform into Power Stars. Lumas can clearly contain galaxy levels of power if we scale them to that in the first place, and they can literally transform into Power Stars, which grant the power of the stars in the first place.

Lmao, dude, I hope to god I don't have to explain why, ironic again, how much a false equivalence this is all the while ignoring the ******* INSANE difference in mechanics behind those two things.
What you just argued is tantamount to saying "The Cloud Flower lets Mario move through the air, and the Red Star let's Mario move through the air, why would we assume they're different?".

Yes, Grand Stars can make galaxies. Luma's can too, But you missed the part where for Luma's it involves basically suicide, is part of a life cycle, is done through different means and mechanics and so on. Luma's can also turn into planets, comets, stars and other things, not just galaxies. A Luma's purpose in the universe is to basically act as a cycle of rebirth. Meanwhile a Grand Star is an object that contains tremendous power that enables those who obtain it to perform ludicrous feats such as, well, creating a galaxy.
And funny you mention that, you just pointed out how a Power Star, something with "power of the stars", is incapable of doing what a Grand Star does, as in, not all "power of the stars" is the same. Some are more powerful, some grant various things, acting like they're all the same is just ignorant.

And there, another thing, they can transform into power stars, but they can also turn into other things. A power star is just one end of many, but are we going to say a power star = a planet because a Luma can turn into both? No, we would not, a planet and a power star do different things. But with your logic, why wouldn't a planet have all the abilities as a power star? After all, they both come from Luma's right?
Actually, stop and think about the implications of what you say.

Why is it odd to assume that Lumas work on different principles and can't grant power, when they're stated to be able to grant the same "power of the stars" that Power/Grand Stars can give, and can also give abilities that are powered by the stars, just like the other two can?

Because it's shown to be different, has numerous different effects that power stars and grand stars do not grant, has been clarified multiple times what it grants, so on and so forth?
It has nothing to do with it being odd, it simply isn't the case unless stated at this point, no matter how much you want otherwise.

And no, you just lied there, it isn't ever stated to be the SAME "power of the stars".
Not once, in any situation, do they claim it's "the same", that's you inserting your headcanon into the argument for like the 5th time now.
And you keep saying "well these two can so why cant Luma", while ignoring that Luma ALREADY does and grants different things than those, it's not assuming they're different, there's hard evidence there are. And reiterating again, if they're different at all, we can't assume arbitrarily, it just so happens to do things it's never stated to do.

Yes, the power granted case by case is different, solely in the amount of power provided by the source & what abilities it grants. Power Stars aren't as powerful as Grand Stars, but they still undeniably amp the user with "the power of the stars" and provide the person using them with new abilities don't they? Different power sources can grant different amounts of power and different abilities, what a stunning revelation.

You realize what you just said right? "and different abilities".
That causes your argument to fall apart, the argument of "power of the stars ALWAYS includes power and speed", to be true, would need, "power of the stars" to NOT grant different abilities, as if it does, then we can't know for sure if it always grants stat boosts. After all, if a bunch of other things it does vary, why would we assume this can't be different too? That's rhetorical, the answer is we don't assume, we just go with what is said. And again, for the tenth time, we are told what Luma does to Mario. It, again, doesn't say what you're saying it does.

Just because power of the stars can grant power and abilities, doesn't mean a different thing granting a different set of new attributes will be the same as the other, this is basic VSBW scaling shit 101.

Yes. They are all stated to grant "the power of the stars" consistently. Lumas can turn into Power Stars.

And they can also turn into other shit, other shit that can't do what Power Stars can do.
Hell, do you know what "turn into" implies? It means that Luma's aren't power stars.
They can become them, but the mere fact that's something they can turn into eventually by default means they are not the same thing in the present. And it sure as **** doesn't mean Luma's start off with all the abilities of a power star, that's again just baseless conjecture on your part due to using similar terminology, which is laughable at best given there exists other "power of the star" lines that don't entail a power boost.

No shit "power of the stars" is a basic english word structure, but big shocker, word structures mean things, and what do you know, this word structure is only ever used in a specific context within Mario, to refer to being amplified/bestowed powers by an artifact.

Except when it doesn't,

The Star Spirits come to mind, all together they can stat boost of course, but alone, they just give Mario a cool ability here, or there.

This is a statistical fallacy, just because something is true often, doesn't mean it's always the case.
Do you not realize by your logic that they should ALWAYS grant the same abilities because you're arguing that because they're all "power of the stars" and because power and grand stars can power boost, it means Luma must as well?
This is you arbitrarily selecting things to suit your argument, cherry picking, either it gives every ability too, or they can vary, there is no in-between.

It's not just "similar wording" as you want to deflect it as so badly, it is the exact same wording.

I don't feel like teaching you basic english here, but exact same wording? It could be literally the exact same every time without fail in every game ever, it still wouldn't change the fact we are told what it does, we know they can vary in what they do, and as such, you either post a statement it amps him, or stop with your incessant headcanon.

No, I'm not sure why you can't seem to understand this concept, but different sources can provide different levels of power, and also give different abilities,

No, they either give the exact same abilities, or they're different. You don't just get to have your cake and eat it too. You're unironically making shit up at this point.

Varying power? ok cool. Varying abilities? No, tough luck, if they can grant utterly different abilities that would already tell us "power of the stars" can mean a lot of different shit, and if it means a lot of different shit and can change between case by case, we have no reason to assume a stat amp is included every time, especially when WE ARE TOLD what it gave Mario, a stat amp not included, in like the five times they clarify.

while still working under the same power source. This is kind of a basic concept among franchises, and is the same case here.

Dude, if this was any other verse you'd have been probably thread banned.
Any other verse that has things being derived by a similar power source yet to different things would say either actually prove it gives the same shit, or piss off.
Chakra? Ki? Magic from things like Warhammer? D&D? Stand Power? etc. All the same type of energy systems, but what it grants can and will vary between what's giving it. Different people will have different abilities, powers, strengths and more despite all coming from the same thing. Sometimes they get no power. Sometimes ALL they get is power. It's case by case based on what is said and shown. And in some cases, it's not even the same fundamental energy system, sometimes people draw from the EXACT SAME object or manapool or whatever and gain different things. So you want to go the route of "well other verses", well other verses would disagree vehemently with your logic here.

Power Stars, Grand Stars, and Lumas can all grant the power of the stars, they just grant different levels of power and different abilities.

Yes, different abilities, different powers, different everything basically. In Luma's case, a stat amp is not included, instead, he gives Mario various tricks and skills, we know this because it's stated like 4 times that's what it did and even clarified what exactly those skills entailed.
Now it's on you to prove it's a stat amp, not through constant ignoring of anything that discredits you, cherry picking, and false equivalences, but with, ya know, a statement? like my man, it's actually that easy "Mario's strength was boosted upon obtaining the Luma!" or one of the million ways such a line could be said, post that and bam, argument done, thread done, issue solved.

Power Stars have sealing abilities and are composed of mini-stars which can erase the existence of things, but still provide the power of the stars.

Cool, another reason to assume that not all power of the stars the same and can vary between things.
Such as, mini stars, since when did they stat boost? Rhetorical, they do not, they have to turn into a power star first (almost like a Luma woah).

Grand Stars can increase your size, create a variety of things (black holes, galaxies, dark matter, etc), but still provide the power of the stars. Lumas allow you to use new techniques and survive in space, but still provide the power of the stars. Different things can provide different things and different levels of power but still ******* provide power. Novel concept.

Except, again, this is your confirmation bias at play, they never once state that "power of the stars" always includes power amps, that's just you looking at times it does and going "hmm, it happened here, so it must happen every time", yet by that same logic you could go "hmm, it granted this ability here, so it must happen every time", yet, evidently, that is not true and you admit it isn't true.
This is a double standard, you're being a hypocrite, either power of the stars grants the same shit between all, even if it gives varying amounts of physical amps, it should give the same abilities, after all, they're power of the stars correct? And if two things give power of the stars, it should by all accounts give "the power of the stars", as that's essentially the crux of your argument, yet lo and behold, they do not.
It changes.

As such, we do not assume a stat boost is included every time either. And as you'd have guessed by now, "power" in "power of the stars" doesn't inherently mean power as in strength or AP, but rather the supernatural, abilities etc as if that wasn't obvious as we have statements literally calling basic shit like surviving in space as "power of the stars".
But hey, you said it's always the case right? In that, well, case, I'm sure you have a statement saying that whenever the exact string of words is used, it is always accompanied by a power amp? Don't answer that.

You can choose to be willfully ignorant and sigh and bemoan all you'd like, but what you're stating still isn't disproving anything. Power sources that grant the power of the stars can grant abilities just as fine as well. The GML granting Mario abilities doesn't disprove that he's also amped by it.

It kinda does actually.
If Nintendo goes "This is the Luma, it grants Mario the power of the stars, like special tricks and abilities! He can do a spin, survive in space and even use launch stars!", this is Nintendo telling us what it does, and if it doesn't include a power amp, well, tough luck better luck next time.
They demonstrably vary yadda yadda, this clarified yadda yadda, burden of proof on you to confirm it a boost yadda yadda. This is simple, do it or don't.

And lmao what? It's not on me to disprove it, it's on YOU to prove it as you made the claim it was a power boost, same with OP, and you've yet to do that, all you've done is taken examples from elsewhere that are EXPLICITLY different in what they entail, ignoring all contradictions that would suggest Mario isn't amped like fighting Bowser in the very game that establishes Luma and what it gives Mario, and so on.
You need to actually post a statement, your shit is just conjecture at best, headcanon at worst.

Newsflash, you don't seem to know what you're talking about. Galaxy 2 is what establishes that Mario gains "the power of the stars" from GML, and Galaxy 2 is the exact same game where Bowser states the Grand Star amped him and gave him "the power of the stars". In fact the game tells you these things 3 minutes apart of one another. Please cut the snark out, I'm really getting quite sick of it.

Uh, you've played Galaxy 1 right? The game in which Mario contains the Baby Luma, the game in which Luma initially grants Mario all his new abilities (the same thing that happens in galaxy 2 btw), the game in which Luma's and GML is established, the game that establishes they can grant Mario varying abilities, attributes and more (And not just GML, otehr Luma's can do shit too).
I wouldn't call something that's like 15+ years old a newsflash, for one saying people don't know what they're talking about, you kinda missed the memo.

And so? I thought I made it abundantly clear that simply using wording doesn't entail the same shit every time. Bowser gets amped because that's what he used his completely different artifact for. Mario on the other hand, got other things, they are not the same.

Somehow I think there being 3 fights in Galaxy 1, all of which Bowser loses and could reasonably be counted as outliers, is more reasonable compared to 12 different instances of Mario supposedly fighting amped people far, far beyond his consistent regular level of power while supposedly unamped himself, which then causes Bowser to scale to him, and then circular scale to the entire verse.

Nah lad, you obviously don't know what an outlier means. Mario fighting the main enemy of the game, who is explicitly not amped, all while Mario himself has no such statement of being amped either despite your assertion he must be (confirmation bias at play), isn't an outlier, that's simply just how it is.
12 enemies? You already said yourself these artifacts can grant varying levels of powers? Who's to say half the bosses Mario fights while amped, get strong enough to surpass him while amped? Nothing really, the only conclusive one would be Bowser in Galaxy 2, but at that point, that'd be considered the outlier given, ya know, lack of statement saying he got power amped and fighting unamped Bowser just as many times in the game that establishes half this shit.
And this isn't even getting into normal power star bosses? Why exclude those? They'd be amped to correct? And they're bosses, not normal fodder, we have no reason to forego them from the scaling chain, yet they can contend with Mario too?
All you're doing is picking what suits your narrative because the only shit that could actually confirm it doesn't exist.
Circular scaling? Ignoring how that isn't the case, so? Absolute dogshit scaling doesn't make something not true, something could be true and utterly **** scaling, but it wouldn't make the truth wrong, it'd just mean the thing in question has awful scaling. I can think of many unfortunate verses where things like that happened. You're looking for convenience, not an objective truth.

You can continue to ignore, deflect and claim headcanon because you disagree all you like, but you haven't shown anything to disprove that Mario is being amped by GML.

Burden of proof is on you lad, in which you haven't shown any proof, if anything all you've done is proven that "power of the stars" can entail various abilities, skills, power, and so on between the things granting them, and as such, assuming that they all have a consistent throughline is objectively false, as we know that isn't the case now, and you've even admitted they grant different stuff, yet assert all the same it MUST ALWAYS include a power boost. Not how it works.

And deflect? I'm telling you how it is, post a statement, it's that easy, we can continue this forever but I'm sure you dont want to be here a month from now going back and forth still, or you can post hard confirmation instead of mental gymnastics, making a patchwork argument from a bunch of disconnected examples while ignoring the contradictions all so you have a convenient out.

And claim headcanon? Hey, I'm just calling it as it is, everything you've said relies on conjecture and presumptions, and you haven't once actually given solid confirmation that Luma does this.

Meanwhile I've shown that the GML is stated to grant Mario "the power of the stars", a phrase that throughout this franchises' 30+ year history has only meant one thing, bestowed power.

False, objectively false, even in your VERY post you've proven that to be wrong. Do not say "meant ONLY ONE thing" when in this thread alone we have like two dozen examples and statements of them specifying power of stars meaning other things, this is a blatant lie.

You've shown that GML granted Mario power of the stars, but you've also shown that the power of the stars can include a wide assortment of abilities, powers, and so on, with no set meaning. In Mario's case, we are told what GML gave him, which, coincidentally, other characters with "power of the stars" lack. All but confirming the power of the stars is simply a term used for when a character is, well, given powers from a star or star-esque artifact? It can include power amps of course, but can isn't always, and if it isn't always, then you need a statement to prove it does in this case, and as all statements fail to mention a amp, all while specifying CONSTANTLY mind you, the same 3 things. No offense, but I'm inclined to believe Mario gained the 3 specific abilities he's stated like 4 times to have gained via power of the stars instead of your preconceived notions.

You can't just claim that this specific wordage being used multiple times to refer to what the GML does across multiple sources, in and out of the game itself, suddenly means something completely different to what the phrase has always meant without good proof, and you haven't provided anything besides saying that "oh it only means the abilities!", when there's no specific proof of that fact.

I very well can, for the 8th time this post. Power of the stars can vary. We are told multiple times what Mario gained, each time foregoes even an implication of a stat boost. Ergo, Mario gets what he gets and that's that.
The burden of proof isn't on me, it's on you, and you've failed to provide that proof, merely proving a cobbled-together interconnected web of examples that don't mean anything within this context.
And "always meant", that's a blatant lie, the phrase has always meant a dude is gaining a power from a star, but is that power physical strength? A special ability? Something else entirely? THAT, has changed from time to time, this is one such time.

These abilities themselves have also been stated to be literally powered by the stars as well, which still wouldn't change anything anyways.

EXACTLY. The basic abilities that aren't at all a huge stat boost are POWERED BY THE STARS. This tells us that no, being powered by a star doesn't always mean a stat boost, Mario surviving in space is powered by the stars, Mario being able to dispel gravitational fields is powered by the stars, Mario using launch stars is powered by the stars, etc, but none of those have anything to do with this huge stat amp you keep arguing for, breathing in space doesn't let you punch harder.
Despite that, they're "powered by the stars". Meaning yes, such a term ultimately means nothing without further elaboration in the specific context it is stated.
In Luma's case we do get that, and it lacks what you want it to say, sorry, but it changes not just this, but just about everything you've said.

The fact that this answer also happens to be the most "convenient" one is just a plus.

"This" answer is a wrong one.

Oh and btw, Red Stars from Galaxy 1 give Mario the power of red lumas, which enables Mario to perform completely different and new abilities. Which GML doesn't grant.
It's not even varying differences between Power, Grand, Lumas and more, but even different Luma's give different powers. Which, btw, Red Luma doesn't give Mario any extra attack power in that instance either, merely flight. Why doesn't the Red Star give Mario a power boost? It should according to you? It's a Luma granting Mario its power, but all it does is give mario special abilities. This is just one of many nuances you've forgone.

Hard disagree, post a statement or stop, I'm sure everyone is getting tired of us going back and forth saying the same thing a dozen times a post, resulting in a wall of text that ends up being nothing but regurgitation.
You can complain that I'm "deflecting" or whatever, but as it stands, you've given false equivalences, proven they grant different things so assuming any facet between them will always be the same doesn't work (especially when evidence to the contrary exists), failed to give a statement saying the different instance amps, ignores how what GML gave Mario is stated multiple times across both games but none of which state a power amp, you constantly affirming things like "they ALWAYS" do something but nothing ever actually states that it's an ALWAYS type of thing (aka youre just inserting your bias into a statement and twisting what we actually know), ignoring the blatant contradictions in an unamped Bowser fighting Mario (something that directly indicates Mario isn't amped as he and koopa are normally comparable, as well as him taking the cosmic spin canonically in his fights), how even in galaxy 2 where bowser is in fact amped Mario can still damage him with normal moves outside of his new cool one (again, suggesting that despite him being amped, Mario's own attacks don't have much difference between them), used wild leaps in logic like "Luma helps mario move through the cosmos so it must amp speed" while ignoring we're told how it helps him (lets him survive in deep space, break gravity fields with the spin and use objects to launch himself) none of which affects Mario's own physical speed, ignoring power of the stars is all but confirmed to mean a variety of things, ignoring how even among Luma's they grant different things, the fact pretty sure we dont even use power stars to scale like that anymore anyway too, I could go on.

Just post a statement, if you can't, continuing with your mental gymnastics and conveniently ignoring everything else that doesn't help your narrative is a no-go imo.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

My man that was way too many paragraphs to say what your actual argument is, which is "the power of the stars grants abilities to Mario, therefore it cannot be an amp". We know GML granted Mario new abilities, nobody is debating that shit, but it does not disprove the existence of an amp. Hell, other characters with the 'power of the stars' amp have also gotten new abilities while also being amped, like Bowser growing in size in SMG2.

None of us are saying GML didn't grant new abilities, so please stop throwing out this strawmanning bullshit. The power of the stars is a specific phrase that, across the series, has explicitly and blatantly lead to stat amping 9 times out of 10. At that point, it is on you to prove that the 1 time out of 10 where it isn't explicitly stated doesn't work the same as the other 9 times.

Also, nobody is claiming the amp doesn't vary. I am pretty certain Kirb even acknowledged the variability in amps with Power Stars and Grand Stars, but that does not change the fact that there is an amp. Since you brought up ki as a comparison, yeah, no shit the effects of ki differ, but it always ******* amps the user. The amp changes, the abilities granted change, we all know that, all we're saying is that the amp is literally always there.

 

[Chariot190]

My man that was way too many paragraphs to say what your actual argument is, which is "the power of the stars grants abilities to Mario, therefore it cannot be an amp". We know GML granted Mario new abilities, nobody is debating that shit, but it does not disprove the existence of an amp. Hell, other characters with the 'power of the stars' amp have also gotten new abilities while also being amped, like Bowser growing in size in SMG2.

Not how it works, it doesn't need to disprove an amp but it sure as hell make it obvious if we are told numerous times what it does, and not once is it stated to do what you're arguing, but rather we have explicit proof that what it entails is different from numerous other instances, then no, tough luck, inserting arbitrary headcanon to suit your argument isn't gonna cut it.
Either post a statement or don't, I don't quite care but without it all this is, is confirmation bias while being actively ignorant to everything else.

And too many paragraphs? Wouldn't need to be if I wasn't replying to the same nonarguments time and time again.

None of us are saying GML didn't grant new abilities, so please stop throwing out this strawmanning bullshit. The power of the stars is a specific phrase that, across the series, has explicitly and blatantly lead to stat amping 9 times out of 10. At that point, it is on you to prove that the 1 time out of 10 where it isn't explicitly stated doesn't work the same as the other 9 times.

Strawmanning? Lad, the crux of the argument is that power of the stars ALWAYS do a certain thing, yet we know they can do drastically different things, thus, assuming anything remains the same throughout is fallacious as ****.
9 times out of 10, meaning not always, meaning we can't assume it to be always, and in this case we're told what it does, meaning this is one of those ten times.
Burden of proof is still on you you to prove that the thing stated time and time again to do a specific list of things, across multiple platforms, making it perfectly clear what this specific instance entails, secretly includes a power amp of untold magnitudes, we don't do this for any other verse and we won't for Mario. Get over it.

Also, nobody is claiming the amp doesn't vary. I am pretty certain Kirb even acknowledged the variability in amps with Power Stars and Grand Stars, but that does not change the fact that there is an amp.

And I'm not arguing that matters, but you know what does? The fact that what stars grant can vary drastically among dozens of examples, specifically, this case, in which what is gifted to the host isn't at all the same across shit. If it's different, it's different, it's on you to prove that this applies, you have not, all anyone has done is go "well this happened these times, so it MUST happen here too", which is a laughable throughline of logic when we already know that in this instance it varies to begin with.

Since you brought up ki as a comparison, yeah, no shit the effects of ki differ, but it always ******* amps the user.

That isn't actually true, there's various Ki abilities that don't amp the main body, it can amp, but Ki can also grant specific powers disconnected from raw power.

The amp changes, the abilities granted change, we all know that, all we're saying is that the amp is literally always there.

Yeah, I'm aware, you keep saying it, but just because you say it doesn't mean it's right. And I'm saying it isn't always literally there. But unlike you, I have a list of what GML is stated to grant, multiple even, and not once is it ever stated to include a stat boost, coupled with the numerous contradictions you just keep ignoring because it makes arguing that a power amp exists nigh-impossible. we also have other luma's giving mario power but not effecting his stats
And no, this is just a case of cherry-picking, you can't have your cake and eat it too, if they grant different abilities then we know what they grant can be different, and if what they grant can be different we have no reason to assume stat boosts is a shoe-in each time. All you're doing is conveniently ignoring the blatant evidence that they're not always the same and arbitrarily assuming parts of it will always be identical despite no statement existing.
If it ALWAYS stat amps, post a statement saying it ALWAYS does, if you can't, then this is just confirmation bias. It could amp 1000 times, but if it isn't always, then it isn't always, and when regarding completely different objects, because reminder, we're not talking about two different Power Stars, but rather a Luma, which is different intrinsically from Power/Grand Stars, yeah, no, try again.

Like just post a statement, that's all that needs to be done.

 

[Potemkat]

Why is Chariot190 so rude with people..

 

[Chariot190]

Rude? I'm saying it as I see it. The vast majority of arguments have been confirmation bias, headcanon, arbitrary connections, presumptions, inability to actually source claims, and more, if you don't like it, I don't know what to tell you because you're gonna get that a lot in this hobby so you're gonna have to get over it, as like, a requirement and not let it bother you when you get called out, or take a step back from it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

A friend asked me to share this.

Ok so first

"The power of the stars" headcanon needs to stop

99% the cases the thing was mentioned was when someone was empowered by multiple stars

You can see the "stars" colored with orange



The power of the stars isn't a universal energy system



Mario is empowered by multiple stars



So of course he has the power of said stars



If I was empowered by triangle shaped mcguffin



It would be "the power of the triangles"

Power of the stars doesn’t exist here

Rosalina stated that power stars are a mature form of the lumas that only few can become



Implying power stars >> Lumas
And guess who fought power stars amped peeps in base?
Mario
Mind you, the power released by the power stars is called star power

That's even supported in TTYD when mario was empowered by crystal stars (which objectively have no relation to power stars) it used the power of the stars sentence



Because mario is amped by star shaped items



OF course they will use the power of the stars



The stars in the "the power of the stars" sentence are the stars themselves

If "the power of the stars" was a common energy system which appeared in dozens of the games and we know exactly what it is, why would they use "a mysterious power" ? that sentence implies something new, a new mechanic, something each mario game get, which is the star spin



Mario uses the star spin and activates the launch star to travel throught the stars



We've given the context MULTIPlE times on what the power of the stars is

Adding on that only his hands glows
Because he is using his hands to active it
If it was a whole physical amp wouldn't the glowing of his whole body make more sense?



Context matter, espacially in something as inconsistent as mario

He also wanted me to point out how Mario can also jump on the enemies and bosses which are consistently more deadly than the spin punch granted by Luma. Mario also defeats bosses that terrorize multiple lumas regularly, so it wouldn't make sense for Mario to be leagues below a regular Luma naturally or for that one regular Luma to be above all those other Lumas. And Rosalina does the spin punch thing in Super Mario 3D World and has the same output as everyone else.

 

[Chariot190]

If we tackle all the power star bosses who Mario can harm with normal attacks, that also can tank the spin, we'd be looking at over a dozen examples.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

At work so I can't do a full response but so much of what was just said is ******* comically wrong.

 

[Chariot190]

I have said absolutely nothing that hasn't been directly stated in game, directly shown, or directly contradicted, and so on.
It's you who's making leaps and bounds in logic, the only person here who has any room for error is you 3 lads. Your whole argument relies on weaving a web of disconnected examples, and presumptions.
Unless you mean DDM's post, in which case, case and point.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

If we tackle all the power star bosses who Mario can harm with normal attacks, that also can tank the spin, we'd be looking at over a dozen examples.

There aren't even a dozen bosses across BOTH SMG games that can be harmed with Mario's jumps/normal attacks, let alone those also unaffected by spin attacks. Take your ******* superiority complex elsewhere if you're just gonna do the very thing you claim the opposition does.

 

[Chariot190]

There aren't even a dozen bosses across BOTH SMG games that can be harmed with Mario's jumps/normal attacks, let alone those also unaffected by spin attacks. Take your ******* superiority complex elsewhere if you're just gonna do the very thing you claim the opposition does.

And I'm the rude person? lmao.
Also what? There are? I was including things like stunning too, given we use stunning or winding foes as means of scaling, doesn't always have to be a case of caving a foe's skull in with his normal attacks. By that same means, Bowser isn't harmed at all by the cosmic spin, it doesn't actually hurt him, but it does stun him.
And sometimes there are enemies that can tank the spin, but get killed by jumps and ground pounds, and sometimes stun with a jump but are knocked away by the spin.

I know what I said, and not even a dozen bosses across both games can be harmed with normal attacks?
Lad, there are 48 bosses, a solid chunk can be affected by both the spin and normal attacks, or various other means even like basic koopa shells or other such items, let alone just his basic attacks. The majority of bosses don't treat any one thing as magnitudes above the other.

I suggest you tone it down a bit there lad, I'm claiming the opposite because that's what the game actually demonstrates and says, if I'm claiming the opposite, that says more about your argument than it does me. And a superiority complex? I don't ever recall attacking any of you personally, your arguments yes, you? No, be better.