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Hello, everyone. DRB here. First, I want to wish everyone a Happy New Year and I hope you all enjoyed your holiday. Now then, I like to make a major revision. I haven't really been active on the franchise this year tbh but it's due to the fact I was more focus on another franchise at the time and I had a new schedule regarding RL, specifically my current occupation, which some of you might notice. Plus, there's nothing much that happened in the franchise for me to check anyway…..at least this year. So…..I decided to do a little revision after looking at some of the additional pages and previous discussions about the franchise. I, unfortunately, still have rather strict schedule, so I won't be able to reply immediately, should anyone else have questions.
Gentle Pull Downgrade
Let's first start with, arguably, the biggest downgrade in the franchise. At first, I was against due to the multiple similar arguments recurring every time it was brought up but after giving it some thought and watching the ending again, I'm going to have to think otherwise. I believe the dialogue did not give enough context of it being a supreme being or some kind of being that's above everything and the dialogue itself doesn't seem to be geared towards all dimensions in the verse but rather just one. It seems that Rosalina is just describing a mysterious force rather than a being. I was told there was some kind of interview scan for this but I don't ever recalling it existing. I believe it's best to downgrade it to Unknown, from the speed to the AP. Ask for its abilities, I think we can limit it to Fate Manipulation and being able to defy Space and Time. If possible, we can also give it the possibility to scale it from the Grand Star but only if there's enough reasons for it.
Shadoo Downgrade
For those who don't know this character, Shadoo is an extra hidden boss that can be fought after completing the 100 Pits of Trails in Flopside, which can only be accessed after beating Super Paper Mario. I was unaware that he was given a profile until a few weeks ago. Naturally, being a boss that can be fought after beating the main game, he's harder/stronger than the final boss, Super Dimentio…….HOWEVER........this is only due to game mechanics.
Shadoo is only stronger gameplay-wise, not lore-wise. Being created from the Ancients does not make him comparable or confirms him possessing the power they do and he doesn't have anything hinting to be associated with either of the hearts. Plus, Mario and co. weren't equipped with the Pure Hearts in order to fight him. If there's any other support for this character's rating, please clarify. Otherwise, the 2-B rating has got to go.
Villains and Random Mooks' Tiers
Sometime last year, Ant has informed me on a profile about a Chain Chomp being powerscaled from Mario with reasons being largely based off of game mechanics. I cannot stress enough that we do not powerscale random enemies to the mainstream characters due to the sheer fact they confront them or hurt them, PIS or otherwise. We don't randomly scale a Heartless to Sora, even with the event of them dogpiling on him in KH2, so the same can't be done with ANY random enemy in the verse. If one do not agree with the stats of certain enemies, feel free to provide scans or calcs that proven otherwise but powerscaling is out of the question. These enemies only serve to be obstacles to these characters, not comparable adversaries. The sole exceptions are actual characters who are based off these enemies eg. Goombella.
The Tribe of the Ancients
Thankfully, the verse is still able to have top tiers in the form of The Ancient Tribe. According to the lore introduced in Super Paper Mario, The Ancients have not only created several universes but also created the Pure Hearts. It's not confirmed that they created every single known world, however, so we can't assume that they are responsible for the existence of all dimensions or worlds. The members of the tribe possesses powerful magic and intelligence, however, they are rather weak physically speaking. Due to this, they created Pixl to cultivate the world via manual labor after they create one. This would lead to the creation of the Pixl Queen who rebelled against the tribe. 12 Pixl and their Ancient partners confronted her but only one pair have survived.
I should note that this doesn't mean every single member, specifically the descendants of the Tribe and the ones known in current game, are powerful. After the war, it turns out that the Ancients powers have rapidly decreased and it became irreversable. This is due to the fact they sacrificed all their powers to nerf the Pixl in order to prevent this from happening again, which explains Count Bleck, a member of the Tribe of Darkness, needing the Chaos Heart and why only the Heroes of Light and the Pure Hearts could stop the Chaos Heart. This also supports the reason to downgrade Shadoo.
Due to this information, we can scale The Ancients up to 2-B via Creating the Pure Hearts and multiple worlds and unlike Shadoo, the Pixl Queen can actually be scaled off from them due to being able to fight them. But Lifting and Striking Strength has to be Unknow due to The Ancients not being known for their physical strength.
WarioWorld Revisions
For those of you unaware, a revision on WarioWorld was held a few months ago. According to the description of the game, the main antagonist, the Black Jewel, was stolen by Wario, who mistaken it for a treasure. Once the Black Jewel was awakened, it actually created an entire universe. Despite being able to confront it head on, we decided to regard it as an outlier for Wario for obvious powerscaling issues. However, there are characters who actually can be scaled off of him.
According to the intro, the Spritelings were able to overpower it and seal it way. Should a profile be made for the Spirtelings, it's probably should worth noting that the power is directly proportional to how many of them they are, since before restoring the world, one of the Spitelings stated that how huge Wario's castle is dependent on how many he was able to save.
Rosalina Revision
Finally, let's talk about Rosalina. Last year, she was downgraded due to the lack of proper context of the feat that occurred in Super Mario Galaxy. It was suggested to scale her off the Lumas from the fact that possessing multiple of their powers and should be comparable to them due to being their mother, as well as, being able to summon them but the argument against this is her being human and a surrogate mother, instead of her actual mother. This also lead to another reason people were against scaling her to the Lumas, which is Lumas being made of stars and according to Super Mario Galaxy, they can only be created from and quite possibly the reason or source of power of the Lumas' abilities.
However, according to the Mario Kart 8 manual, she happens to be made of stars, which is the same thing the Lumas are made of and where they originate from. While it's true that in her backstory, she starts off as an ordinary human, this information completely debunks the fact she is still just is a mere human with magic powers. This means she only human in terms of appearance since her physiology is entirely cosmic now.
Now Rosalina still has no proof about her being involved with the universe recreation feat or any strong support of anything similar, however, she can have the Grand Star within her profile. She is its original owner and wielder before Bowser stole them and retained them at the end of the game. The only argument I can see against this is that fact that she never used it but this seems more of a case of "will she", rather than "can she". This is a similar argument with Mario and the Star Rod (With me being against including it in his inventory btw), only it doesn't work because not only Mario never use the Star Rod or has any possible indication that he's able to use it, he's never associated with it or its power. He's only known to fight against it. If Bowser is able to use the Grand Star in various ways, both in his schemes and himself, his son, Bowser Jr, can comprehend in being able to use it's power in some of his machines such as his lava reactor, and even Mario and Luigi is capable of using it to create Time-Space portals, then someone with her vast knowledge on it and the universe itself, as well as sporting enough power to create a barrier to tank it, should logically be able to as well. Just because she hasn't use it, doesn't mean she can't.
Conclusion
The Gentle Pull is downgraded into Unknow and its Speed and Abilities will be removed altogether.
The Gentle Pull will no longer be referred to as a supreme deity due to the vague dialogue and it's only known abilities will be its ability to manipulate fate and defying space and time. Its influence will not be noted to have an affected across different worlds. It's possible to scale it off from the Grand Star but only with enough valid reasons.
Shadoo will be downgraded from 2-B to the base stats of the characters who fought him.
The Tribe of Ancients and Pixl Queen will be 2-B.
Spirtelings will be Low 2-C but with specific notes.
Rosalina in base will still be 4-C. This time it will be from 4-C to 3-C via with the current reasons in her profile, as well as, being comparable to Lumas. The Grand Star will be listed under her standard equipment, being it's owner and original wielder, giving her another key.
Gentle Pull Downgrade
Let's first start with, arguably, the biggest downgrade in the franchise. At first, I was against due to the multiple similar arguments recurring every time it was brought up but after giving it some thought and watching the ending again, I'm going to have to think otherwise. I believe the dialogue did not give enough context of it being a supreme being or some kind of being that's above everything and the dialogue itself doesn't seem to be geared towards all dimensions in the verse but rather just one. It seems that Rosalina is just describing a mysterious force rather than a being. I was told there was some kind of interview scan for this but I don't ever recalling it existing. I believe it's best to downgrade it to Unknown, from the speed to the AP. Ask for its abilities, I think we can limit it to Fate Manipulation and being able to defy Space and Time. If possible, we can also give it the possibility to scale it from the Grand Star but only if there's enough reasons for it.
Shadoo Downgrade
For those who don't know this character, Shadoo is an extra hidden boss that can be fought after completing the 100 Pits of Trails in Flopside, which can only be accessed after beating Super Paper Mario. I was unaware that he was given a profile until a few weeks ago. Naturally, being a boss that can be fought after beating the main game, he's harder/stronger than the final boss, Super Dimentio…….HOWEVER........this is only due to game mechanics.
Shadoo is only stronger gameplay-wise, not lore-wise. Being created from the Ancients does not make him comparable or confirms him possessing the power they do and he doesn't have anything hinting to be associated with either of the hearts. Plus, Mario and co. weren't equipped with the Pure Hearts in order to fight him. If there's any other support for this character's rating, please clarify. Otherwise, the 2-B rating has got to go.
Villains and Random Mooks' Tiers
Sometime last year, Ant has informed me on a profile about a Chain Chomp being powerscaled from Mario with reasons being largely based off of game mechanics. I cannot stress enough that we do not powerscale random enemies to the mainstream characters due to the sheer fact they confront them or hurt them, PIS or otherwise. We don't randomly scale a Heartless to Sora, even with the event of them dogpiling on him in KH2, so the same can't be done with ANY random enemy in the verse. If one do not agree with the stats of certain enemies, feel free to provide scans or calcs that proven otherwise but powerscaling is out of the question. These enemies only serve to be obstacles to these characters, not comparable adversaries. The sole exceptions are actual characters who are based off these enemies eg. Goombella.
The Tribe of the Ancients
Thankfully, the verse is still able to have top tiers in the form of The Ancient Tribe. According to the lore introduced in Super Paper Mario, The Ancients have not only created several universes but also created the Pure Hearts. It's not confirmed that they created every single known world, however, so we can't assume that they are responsible for the existence of all dimensions or worlds. The members of the tribe possesses powerful magic and intelligence, however, they are rather weak physically speaking. Due to this, they created Pixl to cultivate the world via manual labor after they create one. This would lead to the creation of the Pixl Queen who rebelled against the tribe. 12 Pixl and their Ancient partners confronted her but only one pair have survived.
I should note that this doesn't mean every single member, specifically the descendants of the Tribe and the ones known in current game, are powerful. After the war, it turns out that the Ancients powers have rapidly decreased and it became irreversable. This is due to the fact they sacrificed all their powers to nerf the Pixl in order to prevent this from happening again, which explains Count Bleck, a member of the Tribe of Darkness, needing the Chaos Heart and why only the Heroes of Light and the Pure Hearts could stop the Chaos Heart. This also supports the reason to downgrade Shadoo.
Due to this information, we can scale The Ancients up to 2-B via Creating the Pure Hearts and multiple worlds and unlike Shadoo, the Pixl Queen can actually be scaled off from them due to being able to fight them. But Lifting and Striking Strength has to be Unknow due to The Ancients not being known for their physical strength.
WarioWorld Revisions
For those of you unaware, a revision on WarioWorld was held a few months ago. According to the description of the game, the main antagonist, the Black Jewel, was stolen by Wario, who mistaken it for a treasure. Once the Black Jewel was awakened, it actually created an entire universe. Despite being able to confront it head on, we decided to regard it as an outlier for Wario for obvious powerscaling issues. However, there are characters who actually can be scaled off of him.
According to the intro, the Spritelings were able to overpower it and seal it way. Should a profile be made for the Spirtelings, it's probably should worth noting that the power is directly proportional to how many of them they are, since before restoring the world, one of the Spitelings stated that how huge Wario's castle is dependent on how many he was able to save.
Rosalina Revision
Finally, let's talk about Rosalina. Last year, she was downgraded due to the lack of proper context of the feat that occurred in Super Mario Galaxy. It was suggested to scale her off the Lumas from the fact that possessing multiple of their powers and should be comparable to them due to being their mother, as well as, being able to summon them but the argument against this is her being human and a surrogate mother, instead of her actual mother. This also lead to another reason people were against scaling her to the Lumas, which is Lumas being made of stars and according to Super Mario Galaxy, they can only be created from and quite possibly the reason or source of power of the Lumas' abilities.
However, according to the Mario Kart 8 manual, she happens to be made of stars, which is the same thing the Lumas are made of and where they originate from. While it's true that in her backstory, she starts off as an ordinary human, this information completely debunks the fact she is still just is a mere human with magic powers. This means she only human in terms of appearance since her physiology is entirely cosmic now.
Now Rosalina still has no proof about her being involved with the universe recreation feat or any strong support of anything similar, however, she can have the Grand Star within her profile. She is its original owner and wielder before Bowser stole them and retained them at the end of the game. The only argument I can see against this is that fact that she never used it but this seems more of a case of "will she", rather than "can she". This is a similar argument with Mario and the Star Rod (With me being against including it in his inventory btw), only it doesn't work because not only Mario never use the Star Rod or has any possible indication that he's able to use it, he's never associated with it or its power. He's only known to fight against it. If Bowser is able to use the Grand Star in various ways, both in his schemes and himself, his son, Bowser Jr, can comprehend in being able to use it's power in some of his machines such as his lava reactor, and even Mario and Luigi is capable of using it to create Time-Space portals, then someone with her vast knowledge on it and the universe itself, as well as sporting enough power to create a barrier to tank it, should logically be able to as well. Just because she hasn't use it, doesn't mean she can't.
Conclusion
The Gentle Pull is downgraded into Unknow and its Speed and Abilities will be removed altogether.
The Gentle Pull will no longer be referred to as a supreme deity due to the vague dialogue and it's only known abilities will be its ability to manipulate fate and defying space and time. Its influence will not be noted to have an affected across different worlds. It's possible to scale it off from the Grand Star but only with enough valid reasons.
Shadoo will be downgraded from 2-B to the base stats of the characters who fought him.
The Tribe of Ancients and Pixl Queen will be 2-B.
Spirtelings will be Low 2-C but with specific notes.
Rosalina in base will still be 4-C. This time it will be from 4-C to 3-C via with the current reasons in her profile, as well as, being comparable to Lumas. The Grand Star will be listed under her standard equipment, being it's owner and original wielder, giving her another key.
