Possible Mario Profile Split/Varies Rating

[Armorchompy]

That's what we do from compositing tho.

We don't allow compositing characters anymore in this wiki.

 

[The_Impress]

I am rage I am misery I am in spain without the s, I wrote a poggers textwall argument but accidentally clicked off site and it didn't draft.

I'll input in a bit

 

[Pikaman]

I am rage I am misery I am in spain without the s, I wrote a poggers textwall argument but accidentally clicked off site and it didn't draft

This happened to me once and I have never felt greater pain on this site

 

[Pikaman]

Anyways I know we are discussing a bunch of stuff but to bring it back to the OP, are we agreed 3-C should go?

 

[The_Impress]

At the end of the day the notion stated is, "They're meant to be like Cartoon Characters", the way Cartoon characters work, old timey ones, is essentially every episode is meant to be independent of the last, there are callbacks yes, but they're mostly meant to be cute references rather than any legitimate implication of canon. You can look at Tom and Jerry where there are bajillion stories where either Tom or Jerry are put in irreparable situations that'd change the course of the series by the end of each episode, but they act like it never happened. Mickey Mouse can just have vastly different origins and living situations in every episode that have NO continuity whatsoever. The cartoon timeline is meant to represent a "narrative first, continuity negligible" mindset.

If each game is an episode, like how DDM told me in DMs, then each game is non-canon to prior and doesn't scale. Of course there are exceptions, there is a thing called convenient canon where a few games can have temporary canon to each other but then the series goes back to the cartoon continuity.

Now in terms of indexing we can reconcile it like this:

• Option A: We gives files for each iteration of Mario, games which are direct sequels are assumed to be conveniently canon to each other for indexing convenience as well as logical sense. This will yield about 20-30ish files for each major character, to be added overtime, with the priority ones being focused first
• Option B: We don't split Mario and give him a Varies tier, not necessarily for inconsistency alone, but instead acknowledging Mario's statistics and powers are subject to the game's direction, and do not operate by conventional canon logic, each individual game and group of canon games are still subject to feat consistency within themselves. Essentially this is all the previous to-be-split files assumed to be keys, and listed in a varies for uncertain canon and indexing convenience.

 

[Armorchompy]

I strongly disagree with the concept of listing characters as varies because of uncertain canon. We can determine what belongs to what canon with a good level of certainty and keeping P&A fused while only splitting stats just leads to a half-composite Frankenstein's profile if we accept that Mario has several canons. It's also highly misrepresentative since Mario has variations in P&A between games.

Files would also be way less than 20 or 30, unless people are intent on creating profiles for every single obscure game (stuff like Yoshi's Safari) we'd likely have ten or so canons at best.

 

[Arceus0x]

DDM told me in DMs

fits them well enough

 

[The_Impress]

fits them well enough

Nu mean ùwú

 

[Pikaman]

At the end of the day the notion stated is, "They're meant to be like Cartoon Characters", the way Cartoon characters work, old timey ones, is essentially every episode is meant to be independent of the last, there are callbacks yes, but they're mostly meant to be cute references rather than any legitimate implication of canon. You can look at Tom and Jerry where there are bajillion stories where either Tom or Jerry are put in irreparable situations that'd change the course of the series by the end of each episode, but they act like it never happened. Mickey Mouse can just have vastly different origins and living situations in every episode that have NO continuity whatsoever. The cartoon timeline is meant to represent a "narrative first, continuity negligible" mindset.

If each game is an episode, like how DDM told me in DMs, then each game is non-canon to prior and doesn't scale. Of course there are exceptions, there is a thing called convenient canon where a few games can have temporary canon to each other but then the series goes back to the cartoon continuity.

Now in terms of indexing we can reconcile it like this:

• Option A: We gives files for each iteration of Mario, games which are direct sequels are assumed to be conveniently canon to each other for indexing convenience as well as logical sense. This will yield about 20-30ish files for each major character, to be added overtime, with the priority ones being focused first
• Option B: We don't split Mario and give him a Varies tier, not necessarily for inconsistency alone, but instead acknowledging Mario's statistics and powers are subject to the game's direction, and do not operate by conventional canon logic, each individual game and group of canon games are still subject to feat consistency within themselves. Essentially this is all the previous to-be-split files assumed to be keys, and listed in a varies for uncertain canon and indexing convenience.

I personally subscribe to Option A more, I have no issues with Option B but am slightly worried it would be executed in a way that leaves out Tier and AP values we have access to out of conveniences sake. Even if those issues were resolved I still prefer option A

 

[Pikaman]

Files would also be way less than 20 or 30, unless people are intent on creating profiles for every single obscure game (stuff like Yoshi's Safari) we'd likely have ten or so canons at best.

I can imagine the main cast such as Mario Luigi Peach Bowser etc reaching upwards of 25 or so profiles, but no other characters would likely exceed 10 yeah

 

[Arceus0x]

Nu mean ùwú

 

[Armorchompy]

I can imagine the main cast such as Mario Luigi Peach Bowser etc reaching upwards of 25 or so profiles, but no other characters would likely exceed 10 yeah

I mean you've got

SMB + NSMB + Yoshi's Island
Galaxy
3DL + 3DW
M&L + Paper Mario which would be the same canon via Paper Jam
SMRPG
64
Sunshine
Odyssey
Sports
Kart
Party
Luigi's Mansion
Wool/Yarn Yoshi games
Pinball??

That's all I can think of really, I'm sure you could make more but at the same time I don't think anyone's raring to make profiles for Mario Clash on the Virtual Boy

 

[Pikaman]

Ok, for those interested in splitting Mario by Mini-Franchise, here’s all of them of note



Donkey Kong
Game and Watch
Mario Kart
Super Mario Bros.
Dr. Mario
Super Mario Land
Mario Sports (Golf, Tennis. Mix, Strikers etc. etc.)
Super Mario World
Super Mario RPG
Hotel Mario
Mario Party
Mario 64
Paper Mario
Mario and Luigi
Mario Sunshine
Luigi’s Mansion
Mario Galaxy
3D Land/World
New Super Mario Bros.
Mario vs Donkey Kong
Mario Maker
Mario + Rabbids
Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games
Super Mario Run

Obviously not all of these deserve profiles, some don’t even meet our standards, but uh, there they are

Here’s my list of 20 or so, obviously not all will get profiles, nor should they, but it shows there’s a lot

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Apparently he has an in universe explanation for that, something about corny power of friendship being able to increase the power of the chaos emeralds or something like that being used for why Super Sonic can sometimes be 2-C instead of Low 2-C

That is indeed how that works. Anyway I thought we were avoiding whataboutisms?

• Option A: We gives files for each iteration of Mario, games which are direct sequels are assumed to be conveniently canon to each other for indexing convenience as well as logical sense. This will yield about 20-30ish files for each major character, to be added overtime, with the priority ones being focused first

I personally subscribe to this option if the alternative is a Varies tier.

 

[The_Pink_God]

It seems as if my idea is gaining some traction to the point of becoming true
Finally, I can tell my kids that I'm the one partially responsible for Mario's Varies tier

 

[Pikaman]

It seems as if my idea is gaining some traction to the point of becoming true
Finally, I can tell my kids that I'm the one partially responsible for Mario's Varies tier

Slow down you gonna jinx yourself there is staff support for alternative options

 

[Pikaman]

I’m assuming if we decide to split the Marios that we just keep the 3-C for Galaxy?

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I strongly disagree with the concept of listing characters as varies because of uncertain canon. We can determine what belongs to what canon with a good level of certainty and keeping P&A fused while only splitting stats just leads to a half-composite Frankenstein's profile if we accept that Mario has several canons. It's also highly misrepresentative since Mario has variations in P&A between games.

Files would also be way less than 20 or 30, unless people are intent on creating profiles for every single obscure game (stuff like Yoshi's Safari) we'd likely have ten or so canons at best.

I'm pretty sure the canons could be pretty solidly condensed like:

Super Mario (og 2D & 3D games)
New Super (could probably be condensed into Super Mario)
Paper Mario
Mario Party
Mario & Luigi (could be condensed into Super Mario honestly)
Mario Kart (does this even need a profile???)
Mario + Rabbids

Keep the Wario, Yoshi, and DK series' separate as well.

I have no idea where to constitute SMRPG btw lol.

A lot of Mario's smaller franchises or spinoff like Mario Land, Mario Maker, and Mario v DK for instance barely add anything in terms of feats or abilities and could generally be ignored or just condensed elsewhere, no need for their own profiles. I'm sure many of them don't even meet our standards for profiles in the first place.

 

[Pikaman]

I think that condenses it a little too much tbh

I think my list would be

Donkey Kong (Arcade Series) + Mario vs Donkey Kong

Listed as Mario vs Donkey Kong

Game and Watch

Not needed

Mario Kart

Listed as Mario Kart

Super Mario Bros.

The original game and sequels listed as above

Dr. Mario

Someone can make it if they want I guess but not really needed

Super Mario Land

Game and Sequels listed as above

Mario Sports (Golf, Tennis. Mix, Strikers etc. etc.)

Listed as Mario Sports

Super Mario World

Game and sequels listed as above

Super Mario RPG

Listed as Super Mario RPG

Hotel Mario

Not needed, also already exists but could prob be deleted maybe

Mario Party

Listed as Mario Party

Mario 64

Listed as Mario 64

Paper Mario

Listed as Paper Mario

Mario and Luigi

Listed as Mario & Luigi (I feel like Paper Jam was more a crossover type thing and that the two verses are distinct)

Mario Sunshine

Listed as Mario Sunshine

Luigi’s Mansion

Listed as Luigi’s Mansion

Mario Galaxy

Listed as Mario Galaxy

3D Land/World

Games and Sequels listed as 3D Land

New Super Mario Bros.

Listed as New Super Mario Bros. Can fuse with Super Bros. if you want I guess

Mario Maker

Probs doesn’t need standards

Mario + Rabbids

Game and sequels listed as Mario + Rabbids

Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games
Super Mario Run

Both debatable on if they meet standards

So no more than 23 and very likely less than 20

 

[Bobsican]

TBH I'd merge Super Mario Bros. with Super Mario World as the latter is called Super Mario Bros 4 in Japan to say the least.

 

[Pikaman]

Fair enough I guess

 

[Armorchompy]

I appreciate the debate on how a profile split should turn out, but I think we should find a consensus on what to do before debating how any of the options should play out.

 

[Chariot190]

I'd actually just fuse 64+Sunshine. Theyre technically directly connected, the only real difference is Fludd, but he could just be put in his own key, maybe optional equipment, no need for a whole new profile.

 

[The_Impress]

Ye vote between Option A or B first, so we know what direction to go for.

 

[Chariot190]

I appreciate the debate on how a profile split should turn out, but I think we should find a consensus on what to do before debating how any of the options should play out.

Varies imo.
If that ends up being to messy, split profiles for each line of games.

 

[Bobsican]

I personally prefer more a Varies as it represents the intention of the character better while also easing editing.

 

[Pikaman]

I appreciate the debate on how a profile split should turn out, but I think we should find a consensus on what to do before debating how any of the options should play out.

What’s the vote count between options A and B anyways? There’s been pretty decent input so we might not be that far off a decision

 

[Pikaman]

I personally prefer more a Varies as it represents the intention of the character better while also easing editing.

I have no issue with varies but it should represent as much info as the split profiles. This is really a matter of presentation for me as I feel not listing AP values we can rather easily find for the sake of convenience, or worse, aesthetics, is really dumb

 

[The_Impress]

Option A: @Armorchompy @Maverick_Zero_X @Pikaman @Seol404

Option B: @Bobsican

Neutral: @Chariot190

 

[Pikaman]

I have no issue with varies but it should represent as much info as the split profiles. This is really a matter of presentation for me as I feel not listing AP values we can rather easily find for the sake of convenience, or worse, aesthetics, is really dumb

Granted Option A is still my preference by a decent amount, I’m just not offended by varies if executed right

 

[Chariot190]

Option A: @Armorchompy @Maverick_Zero_X @Pikaman

Option B: @Bobsican @Chariot190

Tbh I'm more neutral, I'm fine with either, just depends on what ends up being better and more consistent and cohesive in the long run.

 

[Seol404]

I'm definitely in agreement with Option A. As Armorchompy pointed out, having a varies Tier while keeping everything else the same would lead to a composite Frankenstein's monster of a page.

 

[Pikaman]

I’m ngl seeing Option A and B is giving me Vietnam flashbacks to that Superman thread...

 

[Seol404]

I'm pretty sure the canons could be pretty solidly condensed like:

Super Mario (og 2D & 3D games)
New Super (could probably be condensed into Super Mario)
Paper Mario
Mario Party
Mario & Luigi (could be condensed into Super Mario honestly)
Mario Kart (does this even need a profile???)
Mario + Rabbids

Keep the Wario, Yoshi, and DK series' separate as well.

I have no idea where to constitute SMRPG btw lol.

A lot of Mario's smaller franchises or spinoff like Mario Land, Mario Maker, and Mario v DK for instance barely add anything in terms of feats or abilities and could generally be ignored or just condensed elsewhere, no need for their own profiles. I'm sure many of them don't even meet our standards for profiles in the first place.

I like this suggestion, however I don't think M&L should be condensed into Super Mario. They are spin-offs after all, not mainline games.

 

[Pikaman]

I think it has some good points but condenses Super Mario Bros. WAYYYYYYY too much, M&L, the 3D Games, and possibly New Super probably don’t belong in there

 

[Chariot190]

Mario Land

Actually, that should be apart of the Wario games. Same line of games, Wario being the final boss, and then future installments having him as the MC, but it's still the same game line.

 

[Pikaman]

I think it has some good points but condenses Super Mario Bros. WAYYYYYYY too much, M&L, the 3D Games, and possibly New Super probably don’t belong in there

Lumping all that stuff together literally just keeps put the issues that mean we’re even considering the split, a hefty amount of the anti-feats are still gonna be there and 3-C still not ok for Super Bros. Most of the 3D games themselves are deserving of unique files each, never mind lumping ALL of them into what is already one of the most condensed files for Mario

 

[TMaakkonen]

Option A seems better option. Tho what would make NSMB distinctively that much different from SMB to make that into a separate page?

 

[Pikaman]

Option A seems better option. Tho what would make NSMB distinctively that much different from SMB to make that into a separate page?

Decades of time, a slew of new characters and abilities, I can see why people would argue both the two being fused and remaining separate

 

[Eficiente]

That's just inconsistency, not basis for Varies.

On this topic, it's a bit of a can of worms.

Spoiler: Stuff

Yes some users would agree that inconsistency should not give a Varies, but then what attention and care do they put into the many cartoon verses we have on the wiki handled like this: Import character A is consistently at Tier 9 & consistently with anti-feats beyond it, but also has some far higher feats, same with other characters. So import character A is listed at (for example) "[whatever], at most/likely 6-C". Then background character B gets the same, "[whatever], at most/likely 6-C", and background character C, and everyone in the verse even tho they all have clear anti-feats against it and never did feats anywhere near that level, if some have occasional feats above Tier 9. The why? of this is very simple, the 6-C couldn't possibly be dismissed as if the feat didn't happen, therefore in needs to be in a profile, therefore rudimentary powerscaling means other characters would scale to this. Because it's in a character's profile and others can harm them & stuff.

The why? on how we allowed this bs is also very simple, we could simply make the equivalent of handling those characters like this "Varies (Due to cartoonish inconsistency. If other characters scale to them, they would do so to their regular performance. They would not scale others to their best feat, dummy. [(link) Here are some exemplary feats in between their normal performance but below their beat showing]) from [X] normally to 6-C at best", but as long there exists users who see "Varies" as this thing that can only apply to canon, in-universe recognized and "serious" changes in stats, then it's as if a fraction of all inconsistencies in fiction didn't exist in the wiki. Thus, we allow wacky scaling for everyone in cartoons for the best feats in them.

If a character's inconsistency makes them have different stats across their series, then they fit the definitions of the word variable. It's stands to reason that variable tiers should be used for them, and that not do so would limit practicality and thus mess us up. The whole unsaid "It feels bad to use "Varies" for cartoonish inconsistency, that shouldn't happen" doesn't give an alternative for it, and even if it did some characters have both cartoonish inconsistency and an in-canon reason to vary in stats. It's better to just use Varies for inconsistencies and may everyone who disagrees deals with it.

I agree with different profiles as long as we make clear as water that everything's still canon and the separation exists to keep track of the stats' consistency. Like Iron Man.