Mario AP Downgrade

[Armorchompy]

Didn't Yoshi attack someone so hard they turned into a star? Or was that an outlier?

That would be the Raphael the Raven fight. I believe it'd be an outlier, yeah, In my blog I said there's like, 3-ish cosmic feats that'd be pertinent here and I was counting it among them. I have serious doubts regarding its validity as a feat, but I don't wanna get into it because it's not too pertinent to the overall point.

I agree with unsplitting the Mario Bros, Wario Land, DKC keys ect. But I obviously have different opinions about where they land. Won't say if that may be a downgrade (Though a smaller one if that's the case), and upgrade, or the same. Only that they would have a consistent key.

Do I list you as a disagreement?

 

[Deidalius]

I agree with this downgrade.

By the way, are y'all considering giving Mario characters a Varies tier?

 

[Armorchompy]

I addressed that in Point 2 of my blog here

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That would be the Raphael the Raven fight. I believe it'd be an outlier, yeah, In my blog I said there's like, 3-ish cosmic feats that'd be pertinent here and I was counting it among them. I have serious doubts regarding its validity as a feat, but I don't wanna get into it because it's not too pertinent to the overall point.

Do I list you as a disagreement?

You could put my name in agree but have in bubbles say (With the keys being unsplit) but also in my name in the disagree that has in the bubbles say (With the AP downgrade)

 

[Armorchompy]

Alright, when it comes to the count I'll list you as a disagreement though since that'd complicate matters too much otherwise, and the AP is the "main" part of the thread. I would like to know your reasons for the disagreement though.

 

[Armorchompy]

Also I'm just gonna put it out here, if you have any relevant feats let me know (Note that the Color Splash fan wouldn't scale back to mainline characters). I tried calculating the Dark Bowser feat where he spreads clouds all over the Mushroom Kingdom but to be honest I just... don't know how to do that, the MK's size and shape changes massively between every game. Maybe I'll just look into the average medieval kingdom's size but that sounds like hell to figure out too so if anyone has any ideas for that...

 

[koopa3144]

Also I'm just gonna put it out here, if you have any relevant feats let me know (Note that the Color Splash fan wouldn't scale back to mainline characters). I tried calculating the Dark Bowser feat where he spreads clouds all over the Mushroom Kingdom but to be honest I just... don't know how to do that, the MK's size and shape changes massively between every game. Maybe I'll just look into the average medieval kingdom's size but that sounds like hell to figure out too so if anyone has any ideas for that...

idk how impressive it is but Rosa's Hyper Strike might be a good feat to calc.

 

[Armorchompy]

Originally I thought that might give FTL KE, making it worthless, but looking at it again and using Mars/Earth distance (which would be the assumption anyways) it should be a good sweet-spot where Rel KE gives a good result, good eye.

 

[Armorchompy]

nevermind, the feat is 66x the speed of light, sorry for getting your hopes up

 

[Tllmbrg]

nevermind, the feat is 66x the speed of light, sorry for getting your hopes up

Armor truly is evil tbh

 

[koopa3144]

nevermind, the feat is 66x the speed of light, sorry for getting your hopes up

Welp, that was the only feat that I could think of off the top of my head. I'll keep looking for anything the might be impressive.

 

[Dust_Collector]

OK so not actually gonna actually give my thoughts on this today since my dog started throwing up so wanna take care of her, before I head off for the day dunno if giant form Bowser resisting the pull of that black hole or weird cloudy vortex (Dunmo what it actually is) that was pulling planets in Mario Party 9 is worth anything good at least for giant bowser level dudes

 

[Armorchompy]

I tried calculating the Dark Bowser feat where he spreads clouds all over the Mushroom Kingdom

Turns out they removed that in the remake, now it's just a big tornado. So I guess not.

OK so not actually gonna actually give my thoughts on this today since my dog started throwing up so wanna take care of her, before I head off for the day dunno if giant form Bowser resisting the pull of that black hole or weird cloudy vortex (Dunmo what it actually is) that was pulling planets in Mario Party 9 is worth anything good at least for giant bowser level dudes

Hm, that is probably a good feat but I'm not sure how to do that either ngl.

 

[Omegabronic]

Turns out they removed that in the remake, now it's just a big tornado. So I guess not.

Hm, that is probably a good feat but I'm not sure how to do that either ngl.

If it is the pull of a black hole being resisted, pherhaps something like this?

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm not sure if it should be counted as a realistic black hole given light visibly escapes it at the very end, but maybe.

 

[JJSliderman]

Charged up Wonder Bowser supposedly would have cast a wonder effect that spanned the universe, but I’m not sure if that’s just range of hax or not.

 

[Armorchompy]

I wouldn't know, I haven't seen much of the game after the first world so there's a lot of things I'd need clarified- whether it's AP or just hax, whether it scales to physicals, whether he even reaches that state, whether he's fought in that state, how he's fought in that state, etc

 

[CloverDragon03]

I’ve only been able to skim through the OP at the moment, but even so, I’m a bit confused on one thing:

Do the 3-C ratings remain for characters in keys where they’re amped by a Power/Grand Star? To my knowledge, they only have feats of that level, though I could be mistaken. Or is the amp they received too variable to give a 3-C rating?

 

[Armorchompy]

I’ve only been able to skim through the OP at the moment, but even so, I’m a bit confused on one thing:

Do the 3-C ratings remain for characters in keys where they’re amped by a Power/Grand Star? To my knowledge, they only have feats of that level, though I could be mistaken. Or is the amp they received too variable to give a 3-C rating?

Right now, they are treated as scaling to the main cast, which makes the 3-C rating an outlier, with the inconsistency being an aggravating factor. If a good argument can be made that they do not scale to the main cast and are self-contained, I am willing to let the 3-C ratings stay, but I do not know if that can be the case, given that Mario does fight most of those bosses seemingly un-amped.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Alright, noted. I’ll see if I can give the OP a more comprehensive look when I’m at a PC

 

[Lou_change]

King Boo is fought in Mario 64 DS, and is such a powerful and prominently reoccurring villain that I don't think it's necessary to post scans of him being capable of easily threatening the cast in base.

Doesn't he use a power enhancing crown in the mansion games still no minions down scaling I assume
Overall if I remember correctly the only 3-C feat that doesn't involve scaling is a creation feat and we don't really know how well that converts to the amp it gives. So agree

 

[Armorchompy]

Doesn't he use a power enhancing crown in the mansion games still no minions down scaling I assume
Overall if I remember correctly the only 3-C feat that doesn't involve scaling is a creation feat and we don't really know how well that converts to the amp it gives. So agree

I think it's a special crown in 2 and 3 but I dunno about 1, it does look similar but I recall there being a statement that it was amped in 2? Couldn't say. Regardless he's fought in other games like Mario Party and others, with a seemingly normal metal crown, and he's still comparable to the lads, so it's probably not a massive amp even if it is one.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

This is terrible and I completely disagree.

Not only do your anti feats contradict each other with what "significantly harms" a character (one minute being fine from a town or city feat and the next you're arguing they would've died from something town level) but we have feats like Raphael, power Stars making the lands in the paintings with stars, black jewel making a world with stars in it, and quite some others.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I’ve talked with Armor about this in the past, and while I personally think High 4C-4B is the most consistent range for the characters for higher end stuff (with a couple 4A/3C arguments).

But if we’re going by purely consistency and what abides be VSBWs standards the best, than I suppose what you’re proposing is the next best / most consistent tier. For the current moment though, I’ll stay as neutral.

 

[Giannysmag]

Really well put together OP, i agree

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I’ve talked with Armor about this in the past, and while I personally think High 4C-4B is the most consistent range for the characters for higher end stuff (with a couple 4A/3C arguments).

But if we’re going by purely consistency and what abides be VSBWs standards the best, than I suppose what you’re proposing is the next best / most consistent tier. For the current moment though, I’ll stay as neutral.

This site's standards are just not great.

Just look at how many more mods come to a thread like this and FRA train.

A bit bullshit if you ask me.

 

[Giannysmag]

Just look at how many more mods come to a thread like this and FRA train.

A bit bullshit if you ask me.

There's like 10 non-mods that agreed

 

[Armorchompy]

Not only do your anti feats contradict each other with what "significantly harms" a character (one minute being fine from a town or city feat and the next you're arguing they would've died from something town level)

I address this in point 10 on my blog, you aren't wrong in saying that they do contradict one another but the thing is that a 100% consistent power level cannot ever be found in a verse, especially one as big as this- what I'm doing here is finding a reasonably consistent one that has decent backing (10+ feats) and is not massively above the majority of the anti-feats. Even if you aren't 100% wrong in saying it's inconsistent (which any rating will be to some degree) it's definitely much more consistent than the current ratings.

but we have feats like Raphael

Questionable, plus refer to point 6.

power Stars making the lands in the paintings with stars

There was a thread about this, it was rejected.

black jewel making a world with stars in it

Also rejected.

 

[Seol404]

Will come as a surprise to nobody who participated in the old revision threads but I agree with both the AP downgrade, as well as the merge for DK + Wario games into the main series, no idea why they were ever separate to begin with tbh. Unfortunately I'm rather busy with IRL stuff so I may not be able to contribute heavily to the thread.

 

[StretchSebe]

It's telling that anyone who wants to argue against this downgrade has to 'construct your arguments around the ones made in it' (it being the blog).

But I guess I'll go in order.

1: We've run into the issue of game mechanics with this verse a lot, and it always seems to be a resounding, one-sided 'x thing in game/lore is just game mechanics.'

A great example would be a literal place within the verse: The Scarescraper. It is a real building in the world, established in Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon. It even returns in 3; the same place. It is introduced and explained with dialogue from one character to another, and given context within the series lore. By all accounts, and according to the guidelines, it is a deliberate developer choice that is not contingent on game mechanics:

"Mario getting hurt by a Goomba in Super Mario 64 is game mechanics, because taking damage from enemies is just a universal mechanic of the game. Bowser being defeated by being thrown into bombs at the end of the game, however, is something that the developers deliberately chose to add to the boss battles in which he is fought, as the sole means of defeating him- it's not the result of the game's universal rules, it's a specific event scripted by the development team, and therefore as canonical as any statement or cutscene. Since this is an argument that I often see misused, I would advise people to read (or re-read) the page before using it."

Again, this is a specific place the developers deliberately chose to add, deliberately choosing the expert on ghosts, E. Gadd, to explain it to someone who would be entering it, Luigi, in game as dialogue and lore. Yet this building was written off as a 'game mechanic,' simply because it was the building where game modes took place in. Even in the example provided, a boss fight's location and success condition within said location is considered specific enough to be canon.

So then, why is a boss room fine to be considered canon, but an entire building in the series that was a deliberate developer choice is soley, and only a 'game mechanic?'

 

[Dust_Collector]

Dog is no longer sick (She is happily greeting all trick or treaters coming to our door). And after reading the OP;

I’ve talked with Armor about this in the past, and while I personally think High 4C-4B is the most consistent range for the characters for higher end stuff (with a couple 4A/3C arguments).

But if we’re going by purely consistency and what abides be VSBWs standards the best, than I suppose what you’re proposing is the next best / most consistent tier. For the current moment though, I’ll stay as neutral.

^
I'm in the same boat as this nerd, personally think tier 4 is the tier to use but with this wikis standards than the 6-C proposals seem perfectly fine. Also above all else I'm glad we're finally no longer treating the Wario Land and DK games as their own universes anymore I have no idea why it took so long to unsplit them lmao.

 

[Armorchompy]

It's telling that anyone who wants to argue against this downgrade has to 'construct your arguments around the ones made in it' (it being the blog).

I mean, usually in a debate you should argue against your opposition's points, and my points are contained in that blog. I'm not putting some bizarre rule on the verse, I just made some arguments that I would like people to be aware of.

But I guess I'll go in order.

1: We've run into the issue of game mechanics with this verse a lot, and it always seems to be a resounding, one-sided 'x thing in game/lore is just game mechanics.'

A great example would be a literal place within the verse: The Scarescraper. It is a real building in the world, established in Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon. It even returns in 3; the same place. It is introduced and explained with dialogue from one character to another, and given context within the series lore. By all accounts, and according to the guidelines, it is a deliberate developer choice that is not contingent on game mechanics:

"Mario getting hurt by a Goomba in Super Mario 64 is game mechanics, because taking damage from enemies is just a universal mechanic of the game. Bowser being defeated by being thrown into bombs at the end of the game, however, is something that the developers deliberately chose to add to the boss battles in which he is fought, as the sole means of defeating him- it's not the result of the game's universal rules, it's a specific event scripted by the development team, and therefore as canonical as any statement or cutscene. Since this is an argument that I often see misused, I would advise people to read (or re-read) the page before using it."

Again, this is a specific place the developers deliberately chose to add, deliberately choosing the expert on ghosts, E. Gadd, to explain it to someone who would be entering it, Luigi, in game as dialogue and lore. Yet this building was written off as a 'game mechanic,' simply because it was the building where game modes took place in. Even in the example provided, a boss fight's location and success condition within said location is considered specific enough to be canon.

So then, why is a boss room fine to be considered canon, but an entire building in the series that was a deliberate developer choice is soley, and only a 'game mechanic?'

Nobody said that the Scarescraper was non-canon. The part that was considered too questionable to be canon is its endless mode, which is an option unlocked after beating it several times, with no real backing for its existence beyond its existence as an option. If the Scarescraper were always endless, rather than that being an unlocked mode, I would have been in favor of accepting the 2-A upgrade. Similarly if you normally fought Bowser in hand to hand combat, and defeating him with bombs were part of a side mode with no canonical backing (stretching the metaphor a bit but you get what I mean) I would consider that Game Mechanics.

 

[Armorchompy]

Dog is no longer sick (She is happily greeting all trick or treaters coming to our door).

hell yeah

And after reading the OP;


^
I'm in the same boat as this nerd, personally think tier 4 is the tier to use but with this wikis standards than the 6-C proposals seem perfectly fine. Also above all else I'm glad we're finally no longer treating the Wario Land and DK games as their own universes anymore I have no idea why it took so long to unsplit them lmao.

Neutral or Agree?

 

[Dust_Collector]

Neutral, leaning on agree ig

 

[Lou_change]

I think it's a special crown in 2 and 3 but I dunno about 1, it does look similar but I recall there being a statement that it was amped in 2? Couldn't say. Regardless he's fought in other games like Mario Party and others, with a seemingly normal metal crown, and he's still comparable to the lads, so it's probably not a massive amp even if it is one.

It's not directly stated in the first but at the same time he uses the weird Bowser suit to fight but in the party games he never actually attacks you himself the only two that remain are in areas with boos in them

 

[Armorchompy]

It's not directly stated in the first but at the same time he uses the weird Bowser suit to fight but in the party games he never actually attacks you himself the only to that remain are in areas with boos in them

I see. Well, he's fought more or less directly without amps in Mario Kart DS, Mario 64 DS, Mario Wonder, Super Princess Peach, Paper Jam, and probably some other games I'm not aware of. Granted in some of those you do not traditionally hurt him but you do tank hits from him at the very least.

 

[Dust_Collector]

and probably some other games I'm not aware of.

He also fights the main cast in Mario Party 9 and 10 without amps

 

[thetechmaster36]

I'm neutral on this, however, I am leaning towards agreeing

 

[Lou_change]

Mario Kart DS

I mean he just steals coins

Mario 64 DS

power star

Mario Wonder

I am not sure should consider them the same given the wonder flower's involvement

Super Princess Peach

Boo area plus I think that game lead to big boo's getting Invulnerability

Paper Jam

Boo area plus a paper boo kidnaps Paper Mario, hell I think a group of boos sperated the entire group

Mario Party 9 and 10

King Boo's Puzzle Attack

King Boo's Puzzle Attack is a boss minigame in Mario Party 9.

www.mariowiki.com

King Boo's Tricky Tiles

King Boo's Tricky Tiles is a boss minigame appearing in Mario Party 10. It takes place in Haunted Trail and pits players against King Boo.

www.mariowiki.com

 

[DaReaperMan]

I 100% agree with this downgrade and unsplitting

Like, the tier 6 range is where I personally scale Mario as a verse too, also, is the 6-C value DK's feat? Cause if so, based.