Magikarp (and by extension Gyarados) upgrade

[The_real_cal_howard]

Magikarps (many of them) casually survived a bomb that blew up lake Valor. No water except for puddles. Said bomb shook all of Sinnoh. Might upgrade AP. Don't know. But this should be higher than the City level rating we give it now. Scales to Milotic, and all the trainers that are scaled to Milotic and Gyarados.

 

[Sparky_"Dante"_Marky1234]

Is there a link to it? The evaporation of the water could be calced as a low end.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Best I can give you is a before/after image. The explosion isn't seen. Just felt. I can give you the scene where the explosion is felt though.


Before


After

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Because this would be a big edit, I'll highlight it.

 

[Sparky_"Dante"_Marky1234]

Ah, thought this was anime only. But I remember this.

I might be able to get a rough estimation on it, but I'm busy, so I guess wait for a calc team member to see this, or link it to them?

I'm assuming that it shaking Sinnoh can also be calced? Or at least quantified?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Hopefully it can be quantified.

 

[Reppuzan]

Natsu got Mountain level for a similar feat, so who knows? We might get a solid City level out of this.

However, I'm wondering if a portion of the water was simply displaced rather than vaporized, but I sort of doubt it in the long-run. My opinion doesn't hold much weight though, given that I'm not a math person and all.

 

[Sparky_"Dante"_Marky1234]

The calc would likely assume it's evaporated all the water to make it simple.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Where is this come from?

 

[Blahblah9755]

Looking at the before and after, it seems more like it pulverized the area to the side and the water was drained (notice how the entire top left of the forest is missing), and all the small craters seem to imply it took one large blast then several smaller ones, so magikarp wouldn't scale.

Also, even if this weren't the case the surviving magikarp could easily have been near the edges of the lake, where all they would need to tank is boiling water, not the full front of the blast.

 

[BreloomFanboy]

Could possibly be an outlier.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Aiden

This is a canon story event in Pokemon Diamond, Pearl, and Platinum, in which Team Galactic bombs Lake Valor to flush out Azelf and reach its cave.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I'm starting to think that these Tier 7 Magikarp feats aren't inconsistencies anymore... because there's so many of them.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I think it should only scale to Magikarp's Dura, since they are known to be really tough.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with BreloomFanboy and Blahblah9755.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

How in any way would this scale to Magikarp's attack potency, tho?

 

[RadicalMrR]

You guys do know Magikarp are known to be weak Ap wise not Durability wise right?

Not even Pidgeot can eat them and they are a fully evolved Pokemon.

 

[Numbersguy]

That will only be durability, but you have my support. I mean, they can even survive leaping from a mountain

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Yeah, Magikarp is pretty consistently depicted as being crazy durable, just crazy weak offensively. This gets my support too.

 

[Gemmysaur]

So, Magikarp's essentially a mobile super water Metapod. Nice.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Supporting the durability upgrade.

@Gemmysaur Fun fact, Yellow's Metapod shrugged off Lance's Dragonair's City-level Hyper Beam. City level Metapod confirmed

 

[Blahblah9755]

Looking at the before and after, it seems more like it pulverized the area to the side and the water was drained (notice how the entire top left of the forest is missing), and all the small craters seem to imply it took one large blast then several smaller ones, so magikarp wouldn't scale.

Also, even if this weren't the case the surviving magikarp could easily have been near the edges of the lake, where all they would need to tank is boiling water, not the full front of the blast.

Gonna reiterate this since Crop seems to be the only one to have paid attention to it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Occam's razor. The most obvious possibility is the likely one. This falls under that.

 

[Blahblah9755]

So the most obvious possibility is that the water was vaporized without affecting the he island in the middle, and that the giant crater to the North-West was just made for fun?

Not to mention, Occam's razor has nothing to do with whether or not the magikarp were in the center of a hypothetical blast.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I agree with Blah on this. seems more plausible.

 

[Blahblah9755]

I feel like adding, the fact that there's a large puddle where the ground and forest are missing, and enough magikarp were drawn there to block the path (as if they were pulled there by a current) only supports that the explosion opened up an area to the side which the water was drained into.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

HThe explosion destroyed everything but the entrance of the cave, there's smoldering craters on the ground nowhere near the northwest, and there's visible differences in landmass again, nowhere near the northwest. Bulbapedia mentions that what Blah is stating is a possibility, but what I'm stating is the main probability. Also, in several versions of the manga, its very obvious that they blew up the lake. Also, why would Azelf, the god of willpower, be drawn out by an explosion that it wasn't very near to?

Also, why wouldn't the Magikarp be at the center of the blast? Its a lake full of them.

 

[Blahblah9755]

The only real change to the landmass away from the Northwest is that the island is lowered. If there was an explosion in the lake that evaporated the water, there wouldn't be random craters strewn about, it would be one large scorched crater. And that doesn't address the fact that there are signs of a large current flowing to the northwest area, like the remaining puddles there and the magikarp that were dragged away. Can't say anything about the manga, but in the game the evidence of water flow would indicate that what you said is not the main probability. The shaking could be felt all over Sinnoh, and drained the entire lake, why would Azelf not take interest?

There were very few magikarp remaining in the lake, it stands to reason that those that survived were the ones furthest away from the blast.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Since the Blast was felt "all over sinnoh" then no matter how far away those Magikarp were from the bomb its still gonna get a good result.

Also saying that the only reason the Magikarp survived was because " they were far away from the blast" doesn't make much sense since its based off your assumption that they can't survive the blast when in reality they have multiple feats to support they definitely can.

 

[Blahblah9755]

The problem here is, even though the blast shook Sinnoh, it only actually left major craters to the northwest of the lake. There's only a few small craters in the main body of the lake, and it's primarily the northwest most wall of it that was actually damaged.

What other feats does Magikarp have of surviving things above city level (aside from powerscaling that doesn't involve the pokedex)? And this is based off the fact that very few magikarp are actually remaining. If the water was evaporated and not drained out, then the rest of the magikarp weren't swept away in a current, so it stands to reason that the lack of numbers is because they didn't all survive, which would mean those that did survive would be the ones that weren't as close to the blast, or they were somehow insanely more durable than the rest.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Again even if the bomb was just to side of the lake its impressive. Considering this a DS game the hardware is limited so its better to go off whats said not shown, one example of the hardware limitations is that the Lake is actually way bigger then actually shown.

Magikarps have been presented as very durable, being able to casually fall from mountains as well as it being stated that their are so tough that other Pokemon can't eat them.

Not to mention the Profile is composite so even if it was just 1 of literally 1000s of Magikarp that took the blast full force it would apply and to be frank assuming even 1 "strong" Magikarp survived the blast is way more believable then a giant explanation as to why literally 1000s of them didn't.

 

[Blahblah9755]

Why would graphical limitations make them leave a crater to the side and have water and a pile of magikarp implying water current? And if they can show one corner of the lake destroyed, and they wanted to show the whole thing was effected, why not depict all sides as destroyed? When is it said they vaporized the lake? Also, a current draining the lake is even supported by the emerald pokedex entry, that says magikarp can't swim against a current and are frequently found deposited in large groups by water flow.

And, on a bit of a side note, the lake's size (and size of routes, cities, etc) being small is more so you don't have to sit through hours of walking whenever you want to go somewhere than because of graphical limitations.

Surviving terminal velocity is wall level, and this is something only achieved by the strongest magikarp, who've lived for many years. What Pokémon is stated to have trouble eating it? I can't find anything in the pokedex entries for magikarp (or pidgeot) about pidgeot struggling with it. Just that pidgeots frequently target it as prey, which implies that they know they can eat them, and they're only City block level.

Saying that only the ones furthest from the blast survived isn't a long explanation at all. And again it's unreasonable to assume that the few that survived happened to all be where the blast was strongest.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@BlagBlah Pidgeot is Multi-City Block level+

 

[RadicalMrR]

I agree that the blast wasnt at the center of the Lake and to the side i'm saying the burn marks and small craters should be secondary to the whole "felt throughout sinnoh" thing.

That Hoenn Pokedex is contradicted by other entries that state that they can jump mountains.

I'm guessing I heard the pidgeot thing in the anime my bad.

Also why is it unreasonable to assume even 1 survived where the blast was strongest?

 

[Blahblah9755]

@WeeklyBattles whoops, my bad.

@Radical Oh, sorry, guess I misunderstood. But it shouldn't have been beyond their graphical capabilities to depict damage throughout the lake, as opposed to just the corner. As a bit of a side note, the Sinnoh shaking thing isn't so much of a statement, as the screen actually shaking all the way on the other side of the map, and someone magically knowing there must have been a blast by the lake.

The mountain leaping entry is for very old strong ones, and that's still only wall level, regular ones are swept away in currents and can't leap more than 7 feet. Plus they mention how splash is still useless, implying that this wall level durability is still way below average for most Pokémon.

It's unreasonable to assume that there'd be such a massive durability gap between a surviving one in the center, and the hundreds that died while nowhere near the center.

 

[Addarash]

I support because of Radical's reasoning.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Well thats why the profiles are composite, there are clear power gaps between pokemon of the same species.Thats like the main reason the anime is inconsistente because the same Pokemon can drastically difer in power from another.

 

[Blahblah9755]

Part of the problem is that this big of a gap in the wild Magikarp of this one lake, when even wall level is meant to be impressive and only achieved by high level ones, when there's nothing to even indicate that the surviving ones took on the full front of the blast.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Part of the problem is that this big of a gap in the wild Magikarp of this one lake, when even wall level is meant to be impressive and only achieved by high level ones, when there's nothing to even indicate that the surviving ones took on the full front of the blast.

There's a calc for a Town level Magikarp somewhere...

And even ther theyre still durable to the point where an 8-A cant eat them

 

[RadicalMrR]

Ok I guess I agree.