Magikarp (and by extension Gyarados) upgrade

[Blahblah9755]

@Weekly, I thought that was an evolving magikarp (aka a magikarp at the absolute peak of its strength) and where's the pidgeot (or other 8A Pokémon) not being able to eat them come from? There's nothing about that in the pidgeot or magikarp pokedex entries, in fact the pidgeot pokedex entries talk about how they frequently target magikarp as prey, implying they know they can eat them.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Why are we assuming that they died in the first place? This is Pokemon. I can count on my fingers how many Pokemon died in game. Obviously they couldn't have a ton of Magikarp in the remains of the lake. They don't even do that in the towns. Only a handful of Pokemon are ever seen out of their Pokeballs. Another reason that Magikarps couldn't be everywhere is because Lucas/Dawn couldn't get anywhere.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

This will not scaled to the Magikarp's durability due to the fact they might not have survived that or even make a noise while at it. There is also the fact if we gonna being consistent about this, when did Magikarp actually tanked 8-A attacks? Granted it would be AOkay to do something about its durability.

In any case, the durability probably be lower than the AP of a Magikarp if there isn't solid proof and reasoning of them tanking 8-A attacks. I am a bit doubtful on this. Then again there are certain feats that might help with this if we went deeper in the anime side of things and every thing else.

 

[Blahblah9755]

@Cal My main point was the explosion not being within the lake in the first place. Anyway, there was plenty of room, they could have included far more magikarp if they wanted to indicate all, or even most of them had survived, there are very few times in towns when there would be any reason for large amounts of Pokémon to be out. Also, burden of proof falls to you to prove that the magikarp were in the explosion, survived the explosion, and took the brunt of the explosion.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

The other possible option will be to put Magikarp as a glass cannon consider how they don't really have good defenses until they evolved into Gyarados, but surprisingly can still put up a fight when it can.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Cal My main point was the explosion not being within the lake in the first place. Anyway, there was plenty of room, they could have included far more magikarp if they wanted to indicate all, or even most of them had survived, there are very few times in towns when there would be any reason for large amounts of Pokémon to be out. Also, burden of proof falls to you to prove that the magikarp were in the explosion, survived the explosion, and took the brunt of the explosion.

From what i recall from both the anime and the manga the explosion was in the lake itself

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The other possible option will be to put Magikarp as a glass cannon consider how they don't really have good defenses until they evolved into Gyarados, but surprisingly can still put up a fight when it can.

How would it be a glass cannon when Magikarp only learn physical attacks?

 

[Blahblah9755]

The magikarp didn't cause the destruction Star.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Blah Not destruction, but the moves it could learn.

@Weekly I suppose you have a point there and the only two physical moves are Frail and Tackle. I was probably thinking of something else anyway.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Magikarp arent really as weak as the Pokedex wants you to think. Heck, the only time i can recall a Magikarp actually fighting in the anime was against Ash's Pikachu and it almost won...

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You could also ask why there aren't any Goldeen. Or Seaking. Or Psyduck. Or Golduck. Or even Gyarados. We're being very nitpicky here. They put Magikarp there to show the And large amounts of Pokemon out in towns? At best there's normally 2 or 3 in a society that revolves around Pokemon.

Also, they're there.


If the explosion was in the middle, which it would have to be to make Azelf come out, sink the island, and open the entrance, there are Magikarp very close to the cavern.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Though one thing that will bother me though is what moves will be rated as such when it comes to it.

Edit: @Weekly Really? What happened during that?

 

[Blahblah9755]

@Star oh, that's what you meant, my bad.

@Weekly, that however isn't what is depicted in the game, where the damage is quite clearly shown to be to the upper-left corner of the lake, and there are indicators of the water being drained past that area, such as the pile of magikarp there, and the leftover puddle of water.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

The anime isn't really helpful in this case as that could count as a outlier or even PIS, @Weekly. Also It depend on the situation of what happen during that fight.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Looking at the photo again. That area is raised off of the ground. Notice the different texture of the area past the Magikarps that of the mountains and large rocks, and not that of the ground. The water couldn't have drained to the left.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Star A Magikarp, nicknamed The Strongest, fought and nearly defeated Pikachu in the episode "Ya See We Want An Evolution!", its the only time we've actually seen a Magikarp fight in the anime

@Blah I dont see why this should be treated any differently if both the manga and anime have the exact same event depicted as the bomb going off in the lake.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Weekly Hmmmmm The Magikarp receive help by being in the water which it make it easier to dodge and jump in the air. It also doesn't help the fact the thunderbolt did not hit the water which it should have hit the water preventing Magikarp from being launched to the air.

Edit: Also the strongest Magikarp will be the ones that are trained while the wild ones are not

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Also doesn't Ash has the tendency to forget things of what to do in a Pokemon battle? It could be a running gag though.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Cal has a point the fact that only Magikarp survived should tell us something about their durability.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Only Magikarp survived the explosion? That is something I wonder about though as it could be only Magikarps living in this Lake before it happened. There is also the thing that the ones that done it could captured the Pokemon that lived in this Lake except for Magikarps.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You can fish and surf in that lake prior to the explosion. Not only that, but iirc, Azelf's cave is sealed. Like, it looks like any other rock formation.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Cal I think the Pokemons that lived outside the caves could have be captured and evacuated by the ones who done it before they explode the lake leaving out only the Magikarps in the water.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Which bring about this possible durability feat. I not so sure how I feel about it as my logical side is screaming "nope" while other ones also conflicting with this as well. Just said it is a gut feeling at this point.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Lake_Valor#Pok.C3.A9mo

Here are the pokemon that live in the area. They showed Magikarp flopping around and only Magikarp because of the fact that it's Magikarp. We just happened to get a feat out of it.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Cal It seems there were other pokemons that was living in the area before the explosion as it isn't far fetched they could have excavated the pokemons that live in this area during the time before the explosion except for the Magikarps living in the water see how this goes. Hence I feel conflicted about it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Why would the guys who steal Pokemon, treat them as < slaves, want to destroy the universe evacuate Pokemon?

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Cal Probably to get more pokemon and use them now I think about it. There is one of the possibilities after all plus we don't see other pokemon bodies as well after the explosion.

 

[Reppuzan]

I don't think so. Team Plasma might have done that, but Team Galactic is too explicitly ruthless for that.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Galactic has never used a water type Pokemon except for Cyrus himself (a Gyarados, coincidentally), unless you want to count the red chain for Palkia. Not even the commanders. And again. They want to destroy the universe. No Pokemon. No people. Not even Galactic. Just Cyrus.

Also, that's kinda my point. Who knows, or even cares, what happened to the other Pokemon? (I'm saying that to make a point. Not trying to be rude.) The main point is that Magikarps did survive said explosion that shook a...country?

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Repp Hmm they are that ruthless? If that is the case, I guess this might be fine then.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Cal howard

It might be an outlier in that context.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Pokemon in general is one of the most featless verses out there if you're not a legendary. Doubt anything can be considered an outlier. PIS, yeah. That can be thrown around a lot. My main point is that the other Pokemon in that area were irrelevant to Game Freak. They just wanted to show Magikarp flopping around in the mud.

Honestly, this should upgrade the entire verse, but I'd rather stick to what's reasonable.

 

[AguilaR101]

Anyone calcing these yet?

Considering the explosion released a tremor that was felt across the whole region you can probably calc it as an EQ using the distance between lake valor and canalave city.

Using real life size of Hokkaido I get roughly ~250 km using meteorite impact calculator gives me Magnitude 6.9 for these intensities


IV. Felt indoors by many, outdoors by few during the day. At night, some awakened. Dishes, windows, doors disturbed; walls make cracking sound. Sensation like heavy truck striking building. Standing motor cars rocked noticeably.

V. Felt by nearly everyone; many awakened. Some dishes, windows broken. Unstable objects overturned. Pendulum clocks may stop.


OR we could use the real life lake the one in-game is based off and scale the volume of the rock that was destroyed near the edge of it, that would yield a much bigger result than the radiated waves of the tremor

This is also a single explosion, not multiple small ones like people suggest, People in-game refer to it as such and we have no reason to speculate that isn't the case.

 

[Blahblah9755]

Looking at the photo again. That area is raised off of the ground. Notice the different texture of the area past the Magikarps that of the mountains and large rocks, and not that of the ground. The water couldn't have drained to the left.

The left facing and downwards facing wall by the magikarp pile are quite clearly the same, so no, there's no change in height, just texture.

Also, I said that they don't have large amounts of Pokémon in towns that need to be shown, here, if they wanted to show that tons of magikarp had survived, they could have shown more.

And if it were drained, the other water Pokémon could have swam away, while the remaining magikarp didn't, magikarp are noted as poor swimmers, some of them may have only made it towards the end when most of the water had drained, leaving them caught.

Also, the cavern was never sealed and Azelf would come out because there was a giant explosion nearby. The island could have easily been lowered after the lake was drained.

@Weekly because the manga and anime are secondary canon, and the game indicates otherwise.

 

[LordKill90908]

You can fish and surf in that lake prior to the explosion. Not only that, but iirc, Azelf's cave is sealed. Like, it looks like any other rock formation.

You can't do either prior to the explosion. The entrance to the lake is blocked off until after the explosion by a cameraman.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Blahblah

The problem with that is they couldn't possibly show that in game since it would block the path due to the way the game's navigation system works.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Blahblah Except it doesnt, it indicates an explosion which we do not see go off in-game, we only see the aftermath, while we see the bomb go off in both the manga and the anime.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You can't do either prior to the explosion. The entrance to the lake is blocked off until after the explosion by a cameraman.

Huh. Well, it applies for Mesprit's area, right?

 

[Blahblah9755]

@Reppuzan sorry, which part of my reply were you talking about? It was quite long so I'm unsure.

@Weekly in the game the area to the top left is extensively damaged while the rest isn't, there is a large pile of magikarp that appear to have been swept away by a current, there are areas for lower than than the center of the lake, which wouldn't be the case if it were blown up, and there are remaining bits of water, similar to what happens when water is drained past an area. So yes, the game is indicating that the bomb was set off to the side, not in the lake.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I have no idea why this thread died, as it contained a pretty big upgrade with only 1-3 people against it compared to the many staff for it, so I'm bumping it.