Let's slow down a little (JJBA speed downgrade)

[Dargoo_Faust]

Just as a head's up, I'm going to be going through the debate so far and commenting my take soon.

My first comment wasn't an actual eval on this, like I said I wanted to wait for Chariot before saying anything conclusive.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

@Metalballrun
Whether its sound offensive or not, you clearly dont know wtf you are talking at all and keep repeating the same debunked things adressed previously, also nice how you blantantly ignore DBS example here, same for @Damage3245 too, thats shows you guys have nothing to refute a similar case at all, also drop the "im a fan of x series, i dont hate it", seen this multiple times for different franchises in debates and most of these "fans" dont even have any idea of the series in question at all

If you think knowing the path of the attack means you can dodge/react after its fired without being that fast at all, then yall should honestly quit vs debating, you need to have the speed to even be able to do something like that, jojoveller i remember says something in regards to that, claiming you still need to be having speed comparable to HM to even hit him

Let alone as Chariot says, they attack from blind spots, you wont be able to do anything about it, the same its said in jojoveller for RHCP and Josuke fight, attacks him from blind spots then goes away

HM had two eyes from polnareff to go into and the distance is small, nothing there implies SC striked before it shoots, HM doesnt even leave things like an eye unless the person closes it first, SC needs to strike the stand who can go into either of his eyes midway

The user on purpose draws people extremely close to polnareff and kakyoin so he cant just attack him, let alone he can go into any eye from any direction, what you want polnareff to do? Slice civilians? SC also again doesnt attack till HM is close to the coin and mind you Polnareff needs to call his stand out, its not like Star Platinum which isnt that reliant on Jotaro when it comes to helping him to incoming danger

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Knowing the path of an attack doesnt change anything, it says on vs wiki doing something after its fired is legit reaction, none of you shown to be aim dodge at all

Polnareff statement he cant keep up is straight up proven false by him showing he can actually by the fact SC does it on screen, literally no different then the examples with DBS, i can also bring up the series Bastard! into this as well, who claim they have power equal to nukes a lot, when at that point they can destroy the planet or more

Its straight up ignorance from those against this, let alone most of the guys opposing this i seen them in other threads only argue against jojo, you know who yall are, those of you need to stop with this crap you put

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

> "FTL is not a set speed in fiction"

So numerous franchises that say a character is faster then light doesnt exist as a speed...

Being the SPEED OF LIGHT is a concrete speed as in it's 299 792 458 m / s

while BEING FASTER THAN LIGHT can mean anything from twice the speed of light to 100000000000000000000000000 faster than light.

this is a False equivalence your making.

also disagreeing with a rating doesnt suddenly mean you can't be a fan of the said franchise.

 

[Eficiente]

This was a huge, unnecessary waste of time from certain user's part, which I already made notice of in past threads.

 

[Chariot190]

>Are we ignoring the fact that Pol has explicitly stated that Hanged Man is too fast unless they find out its trajectory? Because that's a pretty big issue about tagging HM, especially since it required them specific conditions to even actually tag it. I'll get about the "contradictions" to this statement below.
Please forgive me for saying that the longer I read these explanations, the more it feels like we're just departing more and more from the original fight just so we could reach the highest possible results we can have.

Yes actually, we are saying that. Pol's statement is a proven false and thus wrong, it's simply contradicted, no more, no less he proves it wrong, explicitly. this isnt subject to debate. Pol says "wow he's fast i shouldnt be able to hit him". Proceeds to hit the duder twice, both after he began moving and has other feats after the confirm the rating. The highest possible rating? Man I ******* wish, but that'd be wrong, just like saying one line somehow supersedes the entirety of a multitude of feats and explicit showings of said Stand being exceptionally above HM.

>Silver Chariot was only able to tag it by limiting and identifying its trajectory and having Silver Chariot at the ready. Being MFTL, means that such preparations would be unnecessary.

That's... Literally wrong? Silver Chariot didnt do shit, Pol did. The Stand itself had zero issue tagging it when called forth, he attacks afterwards both times and in the later scene explicitly tags him when he's super close to the coin, despite having not even begun his attack till a certain point, said point being when HM was centimeters away at most. Youre acting like Chariot failed or couldnt hit HM, he could, and does, every time. The user, who mind you, doesnt even have linked senses with this Stand, couldnt. Not that it matters though because Pol himself could follow it, and it's said that along with speed, trajectory and innocents were also a issue.

>That's kinda the same thing, since the beams were moving or flashing at a specific direction. Pol having LS perceptions/reactions would also pose a very significant issue for your argument, which I'll try to explain below.

It literally isnt. If you can track the lightspeed beam and literally follow it midflight, that's you reacting to and following a lightspeed attack midflight.

>We can't really say that when he failed to tag him unless under specific circumstances. Also FRA my comments.

He literally never failed once. You do realize Chariot was only called out to hit him twice right? Both times he did just that. He never once failed, saying he did is a literal lie.

>No. On the contrary, it's easy to present this argument as it's centered around a single battle so there aren't a lot of unknown variables to be considered.
The fact remains that Silver Chariot was only able to tag it by limiting and identifying its trajectory and having Silver Chariot at the ready.

The fact remains that in both instances Chariot swung after Hanged Man began moving, and tagged him at speed far exceeding it. Even portrayed as slow motion compared to the slash in most media. Again, Silver Chariot never limited or identified the trajectory, Pol did. The second time Chariot was also very explicitly not at the ready, he came out afterwards and attacked afterwards, only the first time was he already out, and he still swung his blade fast enough to slice the Hanged Man despit a small travel distance, after he already began moving.

>The issue still stands FRA.

Yes the issue that a line that was proven false is be taken over multiple feats.

>Again, this doesn't explain nor counter my argument that Silver Chariot never acted like how an MFTL Stand would interact against a Stand that is 365x slower than it is.

Again, Pol=/=Chariot. And two, he literally does, he outpaces him and nearly cleaves him in half before he can even cross a few centimeters at most.

>If you're talking about The Sun feat, then there are multiple issues against it as well:

>Supposed that it is indeed LS, then why wasn't Polnareff able to do the same against Hanged Man? Because the feat suggests Hanged Man should've been stomped the moment Polnareff figured out its nature.

And that are lightspeed, hell I even posted guide scans earlier in the thread. Again, Pol=/=Chariot. And two, that's why it's ******* PIS. He should have. And he has feats to say he should've. This isnt really complex.

>He tagged four consecutive energy beams supposedly travelling at the speed of light, yet is having trouble tagging a single light speed Stand so much that it requires him figuring out its trajectory and preparing his Stand on its general direction? What gives? PIS?

Yes, PIS, in regards to the Hanged Man feat. Him deflecting The Sun isnt a feat subject to PIS, him blocking it doesnt effect the plot, he does it simply because he can. And yes, him blocking four light beams at the same time proves him not being able to react to Hanged Man is bullshit, because not only does he have a feat AFTER the Hanged Man arc that confirms he can (it being more recent helps a lot here), but Chariot's own showings against Hanged Man in that same arc prove as well that he's quite a bit faster, given the MFTL is literally him putting HM to shame in a raw match of speed.

>These two supposed FTL speed feats don't add up to one another at all IMO. Truthfully it brings more questions that justifications.

It's only a issue if you absolutely think the line takes precedence over every single feat and showing, which, it doesnt. In fact, as per the norm, the feats would normally treat said line as nothing more than PIS or simply a contradicted line, espeically if feats of that caliber still keep on happening after its said.

>I dont see a single issue with it honestly. Youre confusing Polnareff with Chariot, which is worse than it sounds as they're two examples of being notable in that they dont have shared senses and, the fact we literally see Chariot be hundreds of times faster than it, kinda proves that it is, of course, backed by other feats as well. Actually, it's outright stated in that instance that not knowing the trajectory is a issue and couple that with the crowded space and people huddling around Pol, Chariot would have ended up harming or killing innocents.

Am I though?

>First of all, you were arguing about Pol potentially having LS perception/reactions due to following Hanged Man's movements. Chariot has been shown to have great precision that his perception and reactions speed should be comparable to his combat speed (If I'm not mistaken), which is where the issue occurs FRA.

Uh, yeah? Precision aint speed mate. A surgeon aint gonna be able to do shit in a 1v1 against Bruce Lee. All the precision would do is let him hit a small target or do trickery and, well, precise actions. But it wouldnt help him hit it with speed. And yeah? Again, what the **** does Polnareff's reactions gotta do with Chariot's? Chariot isnt a sentient Stand, even if he's fast enough to make a complete and utter ******* fool of an opponent in raw speed, Polnareff still needs to give him the command first, this is literally shown in Ebony Devil, where, Polnareff and Chariot dont have linked senses, so Pol, who cant see what's going on and is under a bed tied to it, cant tell his Stand how to attack the doll, because he doesnt know where Ebony is even though Chariot is so much faster, and Chariot cant attack himself because he has to follow commands. When Polnareff can finally see, Chariot has zero issue blitzing Ebony, hell he literally does slice him into like a million pieces in one stroke. Point is, Pol=/=Chariot.

>Also, let us not nitpick statements. The issue with Hanged Man's trajectory is in conjunction with the fact that Polnareff also stated (within the same lines no less) that he can't tag Hanged Man unless he knows its trajectory while having Silver Chariot at the ready. You can't take one and leave the other.

I'm not nitpicking statements, Im straight up saying the statement is wrong because we outright see it be proven wrong. Again, he, Polnareff, isnt Chariot. But, again, Chariot attacks him both times after he moves, not before, and in the latter, isnt even out and ready till he's basically touching the coin.

>Also, the other feats lead only to frustrating inconsistencies, like with The Sun above.

You realize the line is the inconsistency, not the feats? It's not like there's 1 statement and 1 feat, there's 1 statement and multiple feats, scattered across the part. This is a perfect example of what type of statements NOT to use if they're shown to be this wrong time and time again.

>I don't understand the latter parts at all as I didn't read any contradiction against my argument about Silver Chariot and Hanged Man in any of these comments. But anyways...

Chariot cant exactly just hack and slash and swing his sword to hit a target that's basically stuck in the center of a mass of people. If he swings he'd end up killing someone, basically impossible not to in the close quarters. And, well, trajectory is literally stated to make it a much larger issue. It's not as simple as youre implying it to be.

>My argument again still stands (lol). Silver Chariot was only able to tag it by limiting and identifying its trajectory and having Silver Chariot at the ready. Being MFTL, means that such preparations would be unnecessary.

And, you're literally wrong, for like the 5th time this post and the 30th time this thread. Chariot itself had zero issue tagging it, blitzing it, and then doing the same later on in the part to multiple lightbeams. And in one case, Chariot wasnt even at the ready, he wasnt even out so saying he was both times is blatant misinformation. And, ignoring Pol=/=Stand, that would be why the line is PIS, feats say otherwise.

>Such a speed would also allow Silver Chariot to slice Hanged Man to pieces without harming a single person, since both Stands would statue them in comparison.

You try swinging a sword that's like 70cm long and not hit someone when they're right next to you within inches.
And for one clinging to statements, the issue of harming others due to proximity and uncertainty is also a stated issue. If you're gonna cling to one, cling to all.

>This doesn't really mean that it doesn't form lingering beams, as portrayed in the manga as those lines are clearly light beams. It is undeniable that it would require extreme levels of perception speed, but even if we get to compare it in other fictional media, there's plenty of characters who can perceive flashes or movements of light while not necessarily being able to react to it. Which leads to an another issue being that perception and reaction speed are actually different, along with supposed light speed feats being considered outliers, but I digress.

I'm not comparing this to other media, I'm comparing it to JoJo's various adaptations, the anime, the OVA, the games. It's all the same, I already explained this point above. Polnareff very clearly is shown to follow not just the glints, but also the beam itself, even seeing it move midflight. This is straightforward. I'm not even sure where the argument lies here because it's not like he's reacting to it as if it was a camera flash, he's following the beam itself, the beam itself moving at lightspeed, even perceiving it while it's midflight, as in it moving midflight, ie moving at lightspeed. Plus the lingering beam thing doesnt work, we're told how it works and it sure as hell aint like that, again, if youre going to grasp onto statements, you can do so for all, not just one. The lines in the manga are nothing more then the same thing as 3 D4C. Confirmed in anime.

>Not entirely, like we even see a zoom out, and if we're going to take technicalities of drawing and manga paneling in consideration then such portrayal of a zoom out doesn't really seem strange at all, as further changes to the relative distance could potentially ruin the scene, so a zoom-out is shown in a minimal way but enough to suggest that it does happen.

The zoom out is literally only by 6cm dude. 6cm difference isnt enough to hide Chariot's body and sword completely from view, at all. This isnt even subject to debate, its impossible. That's ignoring the fact Pol yells when he comes out and attacks so this topic is moot to begin with. Not to mention consistent potrayal in all adaptions.

>And it makes sense and is consistent with Polnareff's statements as well as the first time he tagged Hanged Man which was while Silver Chariot was already at its trajectory.

To bad it's wrong. Like holy shit, ignoring the fact the first time he swung after he moved too, and ignoring the fact the calc doesnt even take into account him coming, only the arm swing and nothing else so if he was or wasnt there is completely pointless to debate. It doesnt matter if would make sense in regards to the first statement, because it's literally not what happens, what happens is different from what youre insinuating, sorry but it's literally wrong. And dont talk about consistency, youre currently spitting in the face of consistency because of one line.

>This doesn't negate the inconsistencies found in JJBA, unfortunately.

Again, the inconsistency is one line against a multitude of feats, some of which are even more recent than when said line was said. PIS exists for reason, this is why.

>Except it is in fact, ambiguous.

It isnt, it's only ambiguous if you purposely try and make it so. you can make anything ambiguous if you ignore half the feat and try and twist it.

>We see the first time that Silver Chariot tagged Hanged Man that it was already well prepped on HM's trajectory. Likewise, the very same thing should've happened when it was tagged again with the coin scene.

And yet he still swung after he began moving, not before. The same thing shouldve happened in the second scene doesnt matter, it doesnt, end of story. It quite literally doesnt happen. How in the **** are we even arguing this, it's literally nonexistent.

>Since the moment Silver Chariot was revealed on panel, it was already at a considerable distance, on Hanged Man's trajectory, and has already swung its sword. The last part further implying that it completely relied on the trajectory in order to tag Hanged Man.


Chariot was revealed on panel at that point because he wasnt manifested prior. We see numerous shots of the area, above them, around them, all leading up to the scene, including a straight down shot that featured every single person there, and Chariot was nowhere to be seen. Pol kicks the sand into his eyes, Hanged Man leaves, Hanged almost reaches the coin, Pol exclaims Now!, Chariot then comes out and slashes him before he con cover that last little bit of distance. This is shown to be exactly what happened in every single adaption of the source material as well. Chariot had already swung his sword in the panel, yes, but he didnt even swing his sword til Hanged Man was almost touching it, if you need a visual representation in motion, you can always use the adaptions as a reference; You completely ignored the fact Chariot came out after he was already super close and only attacked after he was almost there. Pol need to know the trajectory for multiple reasons doesnt change that Hanged Man was outpaced and outblitzed, this happens, its undeniable.

>Which is then consistent with all the statements from the entire Hanged Man fight.

Except that is literally not what happens, making shit up to suit your argument isnt how it works. That would be consistent, maybe, but matter of the fact is it isnt what happened, so it isnt consistent, rather, the line itself becomes the inconsistency.

>In fact the only persisting 'evidence' of MFTL feat is the anime portrayal of the coin toss scene which could just be chalked up with artistic license considering how different it is compared to the manga, from the angles to the way the feat was performed.

And the OVA, and the games, and literally EVERY SINGLE ADAPTION, saying Chariot came out and slashed afterwards when it was close to the coin. At this point it isnt artistic license, it's literally just showing the feat the way it happens more or less. in all media, manga included, Hanged Man gets close to the coin, the Chariot slices his ass when he's almost there. This shouldnt even be an argument.

>Like you said earlier IIRC, the anime would count as a supplementary feat it if isn't too different from the manga, but in this context, counting the anime feat would be your own interpretation of the feat, compared to my own.

No offense, but when every media portrays it the same, damn right I'm going to take it over your extremely flimsy interpretation of the feat which is literally impossible by all accounts and assumes what we see isnt actually what we see among a bunch of other shit. This isnt about interpreting a feat, the feat is the one thing absolutely something that happened in this situation.

>But apparently we're choosing the high-ball route as the best interpretation while everything that says otherwise is either PIS, CIS, or whatever.
Which is quite frankly dubious IMHO.

You mean a single ******* line against 3/4 feats? Scaling, and a statement itself? This has nothing to do with high ends or low ends, what matters is if its accurate and reasonable. A Stand having a multitude of FTL+ to MFTL feats is consistent, one statement saying it cant keep up with a SOL Stand isnt consistent, especially when it tags his ass and blitzes him anyway. What's dubious is ignoring all that and saying "this one line implies otherwise even though it 's likely just a standard case of PIS".

>This isn't true, FRA we've seen it having issues with an LS character, supported by statements from its very own user. We shouldn't ignore that as it persists within the entire arc.

Except it never had a issue, you do realize the only two times Chariot was manifested and went to attack the Hanged Man? He hit him just fine with zero issue? Youre acting like he tried numerous to hit him and failed, he didnt. He has a 100% hit rate. And yes, except said statement is PIS and proven false. This isnt hard to grasp. It doesnt even persist throughout the entire arc, Chariot ends up blitzing him, and as said, Pol could still follow him to a degree at least, let alone the entire part as Chariot pulls FTL+ out his ass later on proving he can pull off such speeds.

>The other issue being The Sun, and I already stated how grossly inconsistent Silver Chariot's performance is against Hanged Man in comparison to The Sun. Also with all the scaling issues I've listed below.

And as I stated, The Sun feat isnt the issue, the issue is the single line that gets proven false. And again, Chariot hits the Hanged Man just fine in all accounts despite swinging afterward.

>he fact that even Polnareff noticed Hanged Man's light beams is a contradiction, especially since Silver Chariot would have superior senses compared to him as displayed with its other feats like against The Emperor. Also the fact that the issue about size has never been brought up AFAIK.

At this point I cant tell if youre just dense, Polnareff noticing the light beams isnt the contradiction, its the line. The very fact he could ******* perceive them in the first place implies the line is wrong, let alone blatant feats saying otherwise, this is basic shit. Silver Chariot's senses are actually one of his weaknesses, but the Emperor doesnt matter, like, at all? And again, small size wasnt an argument.

>If we're referring to Bad Company here, this isn't particularly strange especially if we consider that they are of similar speeds. IIRC, Bad Company's attacks are just hails of small bullets coming from pretty much predictable and noticeable directions.
And here's the main point: blocking requires far less speed compared to the attack being blocked, and Bad Company has significantly small AoE as well. Naturally, he'll get hit if it's from somewhere unexpected. This however doesn't explain an MFTL Stand struggling with a LS Stand.

Not exactly but sure, let's use Bad Company as an example. Yes, every single bullet fired by Bad Company has around the same speed, we see this given they, well, all travel the same distance in about the same amount of time. Bad Company can attack Josukes with hundreds to thousands of bullets and missiles at the same time, Crazy Diamond can actively deflect every single one of those attacks, despite there being hundreds happening at the same time. meaning, at the minimum, deflecting hundreds to thousands of the same thing all at once would put you hundreds to thousands of times above it, especially when you factor in he's deflecting by throwing a punch, when the attacks only have to cross a small distance as well comparatively to reach him, but they never do, because he's ounching them all away. The contrary is actually true here, he's not blocking, he's deflecting, by throwing a punch, ie he has to bring his arm and fist and out, every single time he goes to deflect, that's a much larger distance per punch compared to per bullet/missiles. Bad Company's AoE is actually quite big, especially in al all out assault, funnily enough, it's larger then Hanged Man, I cound over a hundred spheres actually. So, here we have CD, capable of blocking hundreds to thousands attacks of the same speed all at once, simultaneously, but the moment an attack he just proved he's hilariously above, much larger then the gap between Chariot and Hanged Man, he gets tagged, simply because he didnt expect it or knew where it was coming from. So against Bad Company we have getting tagged by some hundreds to thousands of times slower than you, just because of not knowing where.

>More like the entire arc and the context of it? I've addressed the issues about The Sun above.

Your issues with the sun amount to "its wrong because it proves that one line wrong", and entire arc? If it was the entire arc you'd have to take into account Chariot tagging him multiple times and blitzing, but we arent. It's more like a single line in that arc, that is only relevant for the last chapter of it, with some extra information added onto it to explain why it isnt so simple, and then he does it anyway, at speeds quantifiably far exceeding it.

>This is the only good point I see if only if there wasn't an argument that Polnareff has LS reactions/perception speed (MFTL in the profiles) which should be sufficient for him to react and summon his MFTL Stand to absolutely shred the inferior Stand to a million pieces.

Wait, so now youre arguing Pol doesnt even have sol perception even though he explicitly does? Like it or not it happens, tough luck on that front. In the profiles? I thought I already made clear im fine with some downgrades for a lot of characters, just not a few of the God Stands in speed, talking like not even 8 off the top of my head. And oh well, he doesnt, and the two times he has Chariot manifested, Chariot has no issue tagging it and in the second instance blitzes him, and literally almost cuts his ass in two.

>Or maybe he's just stupid. Which is CIS, I suppose.

Or it's just a contradicted line proved false and like everything else we dont treat it as gospel?

>Or is it? I listed my skepticisms of the feats above.

Which are that, if I'm not wrong, they contradict the statement (no shit that's the entire point), that Chariot was actually ready and slashing ahead of time (it's literally not what happens, I dont even know why this is a point, its not even real) or The Sun contradicts the line too so it doesnt count (when in reality it contradicting the line, coupled with the other showings, would confirm it as a PIS or simply just a contradicted line, the fact it happens after the Hanged Man further supports this).

>You didn't though. This argument still stands.

I did though, whether or not you agree, oh well. The fact I'm being forced to argue literal fabrications in regards to the feat tells me it doesnt matter what I say, someone will make up something to try and discredit the multiple feats

>Exactly what the scan shows, Enya parrying blows with Silver Chariot. She also had a feat against Hol Horse who has MFTL reactions. Enya herself is listed in the wiki as having MFTL reactions. With these feats, she's therefore MFTL then.

I pray to God you realize Chariot is holding back and not trying to ******* hurt her right? Like holy ****, you cant be serious. Enya isnt doing anything in regards to Chariot, Chariot is literally just blocking her strikes. This isnt a feat for Enya, hell it isnt even a feat for Chariot, its just Chariot stopping her from stabbing Polnareff without slicing her head off. You probably shouldnt quote the wiki as a means to an ends here, I already said some should be downgraded, Enya sure as **** one one that's scaling in full.

>You can read my comment and the scan again.
Being thrown by a superhuman character at insane speeds matters not in this context. All of the knives are FROZEN IN TIME. Star Platinum, a supposed MFTL Stand scaling from Silver Chariot, can move in 1 second within stopped time. Yet was barely able to parry away any of the knives.
If this isn't a massive anti-feat, I honestly don't know what is.

Ah I see, so you propose sub average human speed Star Platinum then? Gotcha, even though immediately after he proceeds to deflect most when they proceed to move at ultra speed all the while Jotaro is frozen in free fall. Let alone the ludicrous amount of punches he's shown to thrown in split second time stops elsewhere.

>MFTL Nazi plane it is then, since a character who has MFTL reactions wasn't able to dodge it in time despite it being several meters away. Despite the plane being described going at 240 kph.

Said MFTL character literally reacted to it and saw it coming. I honestly cant tell if you think these "anti-feats" are even actual anti feats. They're more like, just sequences?

>As for the eruption, Kars actually did react, everyone did actually, Kars even seemingly reacts to the Aja laser when it's fired. And the flying hand and debris? You kinda left out a huge important statement there (well you didnt leave it out, but you sure as hell didnt mention it).
"The lapse in concentration caused by the sudden appearance of Jojo's cut arm sealed Kars' fate! He was launched even further by the white-hot fragments he could have dodged otherwise"
It literally says he was only hit because he was distracted by the arm and also dealing with Joseph's bullshit.

>MFTL Kars was unable to move out of the way in time. He also notes that they were being launched at an astonishing speed, being launched by a volcanic eruption.
You're imply he tried to move out of the way, he didnt. He wasnt even worried. And yes, an astonishing speed, he not only has explicit feats saying he could doge, but the narration says he could doge as well in any normal situation.

>There isn't anything explaining that Kars' MFTL reaction speed didn't let him dodge a flying hand. And that's all it took to dull his MFTL senses for him to get hit by a projectiles moving at best 200-300 m/s, which you can say is how fast the flying hand was as well.
Terrible showings for MFTL characters.

What about the fact he was in the middle of talking and gloating and simply just didnt see the hand coming because he was busy telling Joseph to suck like five dicks at once? Because that's why. What? Those projectiles were moving at escape velocity? Not 200-300mps, what the **** are you on?

>I mean we've mostly been only arguing about the things that you're saying are FTL or MFTL.

And they are FTL to MFTL. How is not quantifiably blitzing sol, deflecting multiple lasers, reacting to a laser last second, etc not FTL to MFTL? Because they are.

>If there's anything directed at other dubious speed ratings like in Part 4 that's just directed at the profiles themselves, which should be the purpose of this thread I suppose.

Clearly.

 

[Rikimarox2]

My man wrote a ******* Bible.

 

[RoyGundam]

I agree with Chariot190 that Silver Chariot (the stand) should indeed be MFTL. The issue of requiring a predictable path can be easily explained by the fact that beams of light aren't exactly detectable mid flight. Besides, even if you know that light is going to take a particular trajectory, to actually intercept that path would require you to be way into FTL

 

[BlackDarkness679]

> "FTL is not a set speed in fiction"

So numerous franchises that say a character is faster then light doesnt exist as a speed...

Being the SPEED OF LIGHT is a concrete speed as in it's 299 792 458 m / s

while BEING FASTER THAN LIGHT can mean anything from twice the speed of light to 100000000000000000000000000 faster than light.

this is a False equivalence your making.

also disagreeing with a rating doesnt suddenly mean you can't be a fan of the said franchise.

I didnt argue for the value at which faster then light is at, argued for the stupid claim of that not being a thing overall as speed, you cant even read my guy, epic fail

Which is bullshit and false, seen numerous people debating a series where they dont know even the most basic stuff shown or explained to them but they claim " i have read/watched/played everything about x series and i dont see them at y levels, i like the x series but i dont see them with such stats", so give me a break from that, eficiente is put as supporter of the verse yet doesnt know shit about it or gets debunked by others

Those are fake fans or if anything opponents against the series rather then supporters

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Vs Battles: "Feats > Statements."

Also Vs Battles: "Pol says he can't keep up with it, but does. Don't take into account the fact he did anyway, he said he can't."

Marvelous. I also love the fact that people keep ignoring that Chariot is saying that Pol *does not* scale to MFTL.

Anyway, agree with Chariot.

 

[Eficiente]

Which is bullshit and false, seen numerous people debating a series where they dont know even the most basic stuff shown or explained to them but they claim " i have read/watched/played everything about x series and i dont see them at y levels, i like the x series but i dont see them with such stats", so give me a break from that, eficiente is put as supporter of the verse yet doesnt know shit about it or gets debunked by others

Those are fake fans or if anything opponents against the series rather then supporters

That's a childish mentality to have, going against higher stats aims to do the same as agreeing with them; apply accuracy to our indexing of the series, going against higher stats isn't something bad, against the series or even not being a fan, as you're taking your time to do stuff about the series with others. You don't need to care about people being "fake fans" or be troubled by it in any way, you debate with them, they debate you back, and eventually everything gets fixed. You saying that I don't know sh*t about the series is beyond cringe as it's unproven, irrelevant and out of nowhere.

 

[Eficiente]

@Chariot When somebody mentions an anti-feat that needs to be dismissed as it doesn't give the real stat a character may have then you're correct to dismiss them in that matter, but they're still anti-feats. They're still feats done in part of everything that needs to be looked out for an accurate stat, even if those themselves won't be those accurate stats. Just starting with that.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Somebody please summarise this. If Chariot does it, please let it not be a wall of text.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Sigh. It sounds like it'll go into circle more than anything. Polnareff MFTL is as legit as FTL Goblin Slayer (who dodged a similar LS ray several times but a statement says it is aimdodging). You can't just ignore an explanation because most works surpringly aren't just picture books.

Might as well just see what others will say

Honestly this highlights my opinions to a T.

 

[Eficiente]

That's not what happened here, that example seems far more legit.

 

[Promestein]

I agree with a lower FTL rating.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Vs Battles: "Feats > Statements."

Also Vs Battles: "Pol says he can't keep up with it, but does. Don't take into account the fact he did anyway, he said he can't."

Marvelous. I also love the fact that people keep ignoring that Chariot is saying that Pol *does not* scale to MFTL.

Anyway, agree with Chariot.

Basically this. You can't simply agree with the downgrade because you want. People didn't finish their arguments

 

[QuasiYuri]

Somebody please summarise this. If Chariot does it, please let it not be a wall of text.

Basically two party going into circle over "An explanation of the feat is important to understand the feat" VS "We see him so the explanation of how he do it doesn't matter".

I think it's better if you read it directly, since sides may explain it in a way that suit what they want or suchlike (no matter if they want it or not; it can be hard to realize when you're objective or not).

 

[Eficiente]

Basically this. You can't simply agree with the downgrade because you want. People didn't finish their arguments

Didn't think this needed to be said but that's a ridiculous oversimplification. It also sums up everything wrong with the thread; passion>reason.

 

[M3X_2.0]

If you think that's oversimplification when people simply agree with one side without both finishing their arguments, then that's not my problem.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yah feats > statements but context still matters. Of course someone just going “I’m lightspeed” doesn’t matter when in comparison to like, watching a light come out of a laser, but in this case, J.Geil was explicitly problematic due to being Lightspeed, and that’s the common consensus for anyone who’s not a versus debater. All the explanations I’ve seen so far on why it’s not are stretches, which is probably why such great lengths were gone into justifying it, like the angles and not knowing where it’s coming from.

 

[RoyGundam]

Yah feats > statements but context still matters. Of course someone just going “I’m lightspeed” doesn’t matter when in comparison to like, watching a light come out of a laser, but in this case, J.Geil was explicitly problematic due to being Lightspeed, and that’s the common consensus for anyone who’s not a versus debater. All the explanations I’ve seen so far on why it’s not are stretches, which is probably why such great lengths were gone into justifying it, like the angles and not knowing where it’s coming from.

The simplest argument I can make against the downgrades is that individual light beams are difficult to track, especially on a bright summer day. There is no doubt in my mind that Silver Chariot is indeed faster than Hanged Man, because every depiction of the feat shows Silver chariot explicitly cutting off Hanged Man after he had already started moving. At the very least it's an FTL to FTL+ feat. The reason why Polnareff had to make the path predictable is because while Silver Chariot is faster, Hanged Man outclasses him in terms of range and in terms of just the sheer amount of angles available for him to reatreat to or to attack Polnareff from. Silver Chariot's speed only comes into play once the range is unpredictability problems are solved

 

[QuasiYuri]

The reason why Polnareff had to make the path predictable is because while Silver Chariot is faster, Hanged Man outclasses him in terms of range and in terms of just the sheer amount of angles available for him to reatreat to or to attack Polnareff from. Silver Chariot's speed only comes into play once the range is unpredictability problems are solved

Sorry but did we read the same manga? It wasn't said anywhere that angles or range was a problem, not even one time. And it's not like Polnareff didn't explained what was the true danger several times.

There's a difference between a statement being iffy and making up another version of the fight entirely.

 

[Eficiente]

The simplest argument I can make against the downgrades is that individual light beams are difficult to track, especially on a bright summer day. There is no doubt in my mind that Silver Chariot is indeed faster than Hanged Man, because every depiction of the feat shows Silver chariot explicitly cutting off Hanged Man after he had already started moving. At the very least it's an FTL to FTL+ feat. The reason why Polnareff had to make the path predictable is because while Silver Chariot is faster, Hanged Man outclasses him in terms of range and in terms of just the sheer amount of angles available for him to reatreat to or to attack Polnareff from. Silver Chariot's speed only comes into play once the range is unpredictability problems are solved

"Every depiction of the feat" doesn't matter, only what happened in canon, the non-canon ones also have the same problems anyway. Talking about things that don't matter is bias.

Pol was able to see the light going around, its speed was the problem, as stated and implied, its visibility being a problem comes out of us and is contradicted with what's shown, leading to obvious things to think about it. Range being a problem also comes out of us and is undermined by the fact that SC can do this.

 

[RoyGundam]

Pol was able to see the light going around, its speed was the problem

Those are contradictory statements

 

[QuasiYuri]

Those are contradictory statements

It isn't. Whole fight is about this.

 

[Eficiente]

Those are contradictory statements

Have you even played a sport where like, they throw a ball around faster than your own speed and you can see it? Are you now able to see what I'm getting at or are you going to nitpick this?

 

[Huzy]

Except it is, Chariot on screen blitzed it (even if you think it was already summoned beforehand, the slash itself still comes out as MFTL). Then does a casual FTL+ feat, and then Jotaro (confirmed FTL) says he can't afford to hold back against Chariot. Hanged Man being faster than Chariot is contradicted by everything else in the series.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Except that it still means this specific fight can't be used to have MFTL (which is still an outlier). Taking this MFTL feat is as legit as any supersonic feat in JJBA.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I’m not saying the feat isn’t MFTL. I’m saying the entire context from a non vs debating context (seriously, ask anyone who isn’t part of battleboarding and they’d tell you it was prediction) would give the notion that at best, Chariot is only slightly faster than Hanged Man. His being blitzinglu faster ruins the entire plot, down to Avdol’s “death.”

 

[Huzy]

Yes and what I'm saying is that the entire plot point of him needing to predict falls flat on its face if Polnareff is even remotely above FTL (which he is considering literally everything else except the statements from this arc) because you sure as shit don't need to force someone down a straight path if you have the same speed or above, you should still be able to react. Which is why the notion of him needing to predict to hit SoL objects should be labeled as PIS in favor of more consistent feats.

 

[Eficiente]

Except it is, Chariot on screen blitzed it

Pol on screen couldn't just go and attack him as light more times than what he could hit it, and when he did, the first time was an imprecise hit and the second needed specific tactics.

and then Jotaro (confirmed FTL)

We do know SP is FTL, he's faster.

says he can't afford to hold back against Chariot.

Yet that possessed Pol had his power and speed amped, and then used 2 swords and then his power and speed kept getting amped. If we take that at face value then Jotaro didn't even know the power of his own Stand.

Hanged Man being faster than Chariot is contradicted by everything else in the series.

"Everything else in the series" is 99% of things slower than light based on its own feats and the other things said before.

 

[RoyGundam]

Have you even played a sport where like, they throw a ball around faster than your own speed and you can see it? Are you now able to see what I'm getting at or are you going to nitpick this?

It isn't. Whole fight is about this.

"Every depiction of the feat" doesn't matter, only what happened in canon, the non-canon ones also have the same problems anyway. Talking about things that don't matter is bias.

Pol was able to see the light going around, its speed was the problem, as stated and implied, its visibility being a problem comes out of us and is contradicted with what's shown, leading to obvious things to think about it. Range being a problem also comes out of us and is undermined by the fact that SC can do this.

Okay so I went and re-read the mid part of the fight and I found something truly astonishing. Polnareff blitzes Hanged man the very instant he figures out his trick i.e. the fact that he's moving as a light beam. As long as he's sure about the trajectory, Silver Chariot can blitz Hanged Man no questions asked. In fact, J Geil's last resort was to get a crowd of people surround them so that the point of Hanged Man's attack could not be predicted. Silver Chariot is unquestionably faster than Hanged Man

I'm gonna quote J Geil's words : "You said you have seen through my stand. That you only need to attack my path? Idiots! I know my own stand's weakness. With more surfaces to reflect off of, you can't predict my path"

No one was under any doubt (least of all J Geil) that Silver chariot was indeed much faster than Hanged Man. Hanged Man's advantage was unpredictability

PS : chapter 30 chapter 31 (where I read the relevant chapters)

 

[Eficiente]

That's a delusional take portrayed arogantly, you're literally contradicting yourself in the comment.

 

[Huzy]

Pol on screen couldn't just go and attack him as light more times than what he could hit it, and when he did, the first time was an imprecise hit and the second needed specific tactics.

The only two times he tries, he does it successfully, the only other time he could've done it was when they were surrounded by people and Polnareff isn't exactly the person to kill innocent people while trying to take revenge, the whole prediction thing is PIS as proved by him being able to tag The Sun whose rays are confirmed to be beams of light shot out from its photosphere in the guides.

Yet that possessed Pol had his power and speed amped, and then used 2 swords and then his power and speed kept getting amped. If we take that at face value then Jotaro didn't even know the power of his own Stand.

He wasn't even factoring in possessed Chariot as when the statement was made only Polnareff was holding the sword and not Chariot itself, amping the user won't amp the stand. Jotaro literally just said this.

"Everything else in the series" is 99% of things slower than light based on its own feats and the other things said before.

Everything else being the 2 feats from Chariot in the arc itself, The Sun feat and Jotaro not considering Chariot an opponent he can just be uber casual with.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Didn't think this needed to be said but that's a ridiculous oversimplification. It also sums up everything wrong with the thread; passion>reason.

Maybe you are right and I am being biased. However, find it extremely frustrating that people keep dismissing Chariot's argument because "Pol can't be MFTL", even though he is, in fact, agreeing with that notion.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

That's a childish mentality to have, going against higher stats aims to do the same as agreeing with them; apply accuracy to our indexing of the series, going against higher stats isn't something bad, against the series or even not being a fan, as you're taking your time to do stuff about the series with others. You don't need to care about people being "fake fans" or be troubled by it in any way, you debate with them, they debate you back, and eventually everything gets fixed. You saying that I don't know sh*t about the series is beyond cringe as it's unproven, irrelevant and out of nowhere.

Funny how you lie and twist it your way, you really dont know what you talking at all, evident on Heaven Dio tier which you were debunked and proven wrong, accept the truth

Also no to your "counter" to what i said, one can say goku isnt universal even if they seen dbs and are fans of the series, that sorta thing im talking about, fake fans or not real supporters that are against legitimate statistics, not lowballed or highballed ones, which applies here too with you and your pals against it for bullshit reasons

 

[Chariot190]

ok so are we actually at the point we're going down the route of saying this single line somehow not only invalidates every single Chariot, but the other feats as well? Because I just seen that get said.

Pol need to aim strike is explicitly shown false every single time he does "aim strike", it simply isnt what he does. The Stand attacks afterwards both times. It may be Pol getting ready ahead of time, but that doesn't change what his Stand is doing.
The trajectory actually did matter, cant hit something you don't know where its coming from, speed or not, innocents being involved also made the situation that much worse, it's a tad more complex then people are giving it credit for. This is explicitly established to be a trope. Even if it wasn't. the actual feats supersede it entirely.
It ruining or effecting the plot doesn't matter, all that does is prove its existence as PIS, the fact the counterargument can be summarized almost entirely with "it doesnt make sense story wise in that arc" should tell one one as much.

Polnareff likely follows the Hanged Man's beam (explicitly does so in adaptions. This alone makes him being incapable of keeping up faulty, as he's shown to do so flat out, may not equate to Pol himself being MFTL, but it does prove the line as a base already has issues with it and is bound to discrepancy with what actually occurs).
Chariot tags the Hanged Man.
Chariot blitzed the Hanged Man (the very feat itself, so saying Chariot cant pull those numbers off against Hanged Man is false information, because he does).
Has feats later on of him effectively deflecting four Hanged Man at a single time, proving that, of course, a lightbeam isn't a issue to him, especially when this feat happens more recently.
He also scales above Hanged Man flat out via scaling to characters with FTL feats of their own.

All the while consistently portrayed across all adaptions of the scenes, from anime, OVA, to even game to be the same more or less.

So, again, why are we saying that a single line >>> feats, even if said line set the stage for the tale end of a fight (fyi, this was only relevant for a chapter and a half), is proven false in that very same fight when we see the Stand act comparatively against the Stand in question, in which he's ridiculously faster, all while having feats elsewhere that support it as well? The fact he has more feats later on should surmise the line not really being accurate to his capabilities.
Technically speaking the line stated is referring to Pol himself, not even his Stand, this is tantamount to downgrading someone who has a gun down to human speed, ten downgrading the gun as well.

like, this is like if we downgraded Pokemon as a verse based on some sus as **** dex entries despite them having the feats to show otherwise like subsonic Machamp, Peak Human Goodra, some subsonic legends, etc, all based on statements saying theyre a certain speed or cant do a certain thing even when they do, or the travesty that is Dyspo.

Look, downgrades all around are fine for the most part, some drastic even. But one thing that sure as hell ain't ok is downgrading a character with consistent feats over a single line when he goes out of his way to show said line false multiple times over. This is the definition of PIS.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Polnareff statement is wrong when he tags him twice and let alone on 2nd one needs to call SC to have the feat happen, you literally take a lowballing statement as being more legit then what the character does? I guess frieza is just planet in ToP arc cuz he says just a planet it blows or that dbs characters have trouble with a FTL Dyspo

 

[Chariot190]

> the first time was an imprecise hit and the second needed specific tactics.

An imprecise hit? A clean slice down his back deadcenter done by swinging after he begins moving? And the second one we see the difference in speed plain as day between the Stands, they arent even comparable, Chariot is shown much faster.