Let's slow down a little (JJBA speed downgrade)

[Chariot190]

These feats all support LS to a bit into FTL best. I would be fine with that for folks with SC level speed and above

That's, literally wrong? Chariot slashing Hanged Man is MFTL, Chariot deflecting the Sun is FTL+, Kars' dodge is FTL+ too (I redid it like a month ago using the models of a game for an accurate Kars arm length as well as compensating for the ****** up angle and depth).

Some Stands should be downgraded to FTL, hell maybe even Rel+ for some. But There is indeed FTL+ to MFTL feats.

 

[Huzy]

I agree with Chariot here, factoring in the official guidebooks, one of which is even referenced within the manga, Chariot being faster than Hanged Man is more consistent than him not being faster.

 

[00potato]

FTL to FTL+, same difference just with a plus sign.

 

[Metalballrun]

>It's probably gotta do with the fact there's like a good 3 dozen places he could come out and if he doesnt know the exact place he could very well just end up missing him move entirely and then getting a knife to the back, not saying that's the whole reason, but it isnt as simple as youre implying. And that doesnt change what actually happened, Chariot very clearly attacked after he was almost there, not before.

Shouldn't that like, not matter at all if Silver Chariot is FTL?
Browsing through Chariot's feats gives a good indication that it has great accuracy (it's kinda its shtick as well). Likely also the reason why it could correctly slice Hanged Man as a light beam, assuming Hanged Man was really thin beam of light. And we know that it's bright enough to be seen by the naked eye since Polnareff did (he only said that its speed is impossible to follow).
If SC was MFTL, it wouldn't matter from whose eyes it would go to or from, because the moment that beam of light leaves, both Polnareff and Chariot would see it moving and should be able to intercept it regardless, if Silver Chariot is MFTL. Correct me if I'm wrong.

>Polnareff himself ''explicitly'' states that he could see The Hanged Man move between surfaces at lightspeed.

That interpretation really seems like a stretch, IMO.
Polnareff seeing Hanged Man in all of those scenes doesn't really seem to indicate that he's actually seeing it move at a pace slow enough to suggest that he has MFTL reactions or perception speed. Any normal human being would be able to notice a thin laser/light beam in a similar manner that Polnareff did Hanged Man (although since Polnareff is obviously no normal human he would do so a whole lot better).
Polnareff concluding that Hanged Man is moving at light speed isn't because he was accurately calculating Hanged Man's speed by observing its movement, it's because he observed that Hanged Man manifests as a beam of light and is, therefore, moving at the speed of light.

Also, if we assume that Polnareff and Chariot can indeed observe Hanged Man in that way because of their MFTL reaction speed then it comes back to my original point: they should've been able to defeat him with ease after figuring out his ability, since Hanged Man is not only massively slower than them, but both Chariot AND Polnareff can observe it moving. With MFTL attack speed, Polnareff wouldn't have had Kakyoin remove the reflective buttons of his uniform because the moment Hanged Man tries to go there, Chariot should be easily be able to slice him to a hundred pieces before even reaching its intended destination.

As for how Hanged Man seems to be moving "slow" in the anime scans, that's like, how beams of light are generally portrayed in fiction to indicate its movements.

In short, Silver Chariot should've comfortably defeated Hanged Man in no less ease than how Chariot deflected those supposed light speed beams from The Sun.

UNLESS what we're going to do is to ignore all of the blunders Polnareff and Kakyoin had in the Hanged Man arc, and instead just prefer the two instances where Chariot supposedly blitzes Hanged Man (which honestly just makes them all look like idiots with how difficult of an opponent Hanged Man was supposed to be).

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

FTL to FTL+, same difference just with a plus sign.

You know there's like a 100x Difference between those right?

 

[Thebannanaworkshop]

SBR needs a downgrade or at least a review on feats.

 

[Chariot190]

>If somebody turns on a laser pointer for a split-second, you'd be able to see the beam and react to it.

What? Dont be dishonest now, that's not true in the slightest. Especially when you dont know that there's a laser pointer to begin with. You're also acting like the laser is a constant stream here, because it aint.

>Judging by the scans further up, it doesn't seem like Polnareff is reacting to the beam before it hits its intended target. The beam is fully created in each of those panels.

And this is how I know you havent actually been paying attention.

Polnareff notices the light beam, follows it from place to place.

Literally says right here that he saw him do it.

And this is consistently portrayed in all media.



Like it or not, Polnareff could follow The Hanged Man, it's how he learned that he was moving at lightspeed and between surfaces to begin with. The laser pointer thing doesnt work because it doesnt even work like a laser pointer, and it sure as hell wasnt because he knew it was coming, he just happened to notice it happening and figured it out.
Now add onto the fact we very clearly, undeniably see Chariot blitz it, and then have FTL+ feats later on to support it. And yet somehow them being fast is the contradiction instead of them not being fast when everything points to the firmer not the latter? That's a clear example of hypocrisy, also straight up ignoring what we see.

 

[Huzy]

Why is Polnareff being able to see Hanged Man moving between surfaces so hard to believe? It's stated by him and it's portrayed the same in adaptations, the scene is 1:1 in the anime which to my knowledge is acceptable in this wiki. Plus he says "Now!" when Hanged Man is still moving between surfaces.

 

[Ionliosite]

I'm also agreeing with Chariot that Pol's feat is alright, but we should downgrade a lot of the people that scale to it. Only those "fastest Stands" like Star Platinum should scale, others like Echoes and The Hand can definitely go down to FTL or Relativistic if needed because they clearly don't scale to SP's speed.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Shouldnt only the right hand of The Hand be downgraded?

 

[Chariot190]

>Shouldn't that like, not matter at all if Silver Chariot is FTL?

It matters greatly. Being FTL means shit if you dont know where to attack or where it's coming from or going. This is something that's not even relevant here and never again, off the top of my head, the scene with Crazy Diamond and Superfly. It's outright stated that Crazy Diamond is most certainly fast enough to block everything and hit the user, but because he simply doesnt know where the attacks will come from, he cant defend. This also happens with N'Doul, says that no matter how fast SP is, if he doesnt know where he's gonna attack from then he cant defend or attack back. Or again with Crazy Diamond, casually deflects hundreds of attacks from Bad Company, but cant defend against the attacks from his blindspot. Happens all the time, it's a established thing that just because you can easily react or defend against something, if you dont know where it's coming or going you cant do much against it because you simply dont know. Like, it is what it is, I aint Araki, blame him for making this a long running established trope throughout JoJo.

>Browsing through Chariot's feats gives a good indication that it has great accuracy (it's kinda its shtick as well). Likely also the reason why it could correctly slice Hanged Man as a light beam, assuming Hanged Man was really thin beam of light. And we know that it's bright enough to be seen by the naked eye since Polnareff did (he only said that its speed is impossible to follow).

It has good precision yes. Precision doesnt help with speed though. Polnareff seen it yes, it being bright wasnt why though. Also Hanged Man's laser doesnt linger or premeptively shows up, it is the laser, with said laser being lightspeed, said laser disappears (usually) when his full body length reaches the intended destination as well (Because said laser is him). There is no "they could see it like a laser pointer", because this laser pointer moves at lightspeed for like a nanosecond then it's gone because it reached its destination. It's more akin to a lightspeed bullet then anything.

>If SC was MFTL, it wouldn't matter from whose eyes it would go to or from, because the moment that beam of light leaves, both Polnareff and Chariot would see it moving and should be able to intercept it regardless, if Silver Chariot is MFTL. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are wrong, very much so. Chariot attacks it after it begins moving but before it reaches its destination, multiple times. You cant intercept a lightspeed beam inches before it becomes unhittable, while you're over a meter away, without being faster than it. This is tantamount to saying you can dodge a bullet after it was fired, despite only beginning to dodge when it's a inch away from hitting you in the head, and then dodging like a meter before said bullet crosses that last inch.

>That interpretation really seems like a stretch, IMO.

It's not an interpretation, he literally says it himself and we see it happen. There's nothing to interpret here at all.

>Polnareff seeing Hanged Man in all of those scenes doesn't really seem to indicate that he's actually seeing it move at a pace slow enough to suggest that he has MFTL reactions or perception speed. Any normal human being would be able to notice a thin laser/light beam in a similar manner that Polnareff did Hanged Man (although since Polnareff is obviously no normal human he would do so a whole lot better).

Ignoring the fact the scene's are literally from his POV, I never said he was seeing it slow enough to be MFTL, just that he can and does very clearly see it happen. I swear to god we better not be actually saying normal ******* people can see the Hanged Man's laser now because holy shit.

>Polnareff concluding that Hanged Man is moving at light speed isn't because he was accurately calculating Hanged Man's speed by observing its movement, it's because he observed that Hanged Man manifests as a beam of light and is, therefore, moving at the speed of light.

Except he literally follows it, knows exactly where it went, we visually see him move while it's in the process of moving as well, and said beam itself is SOL and doesnt actually behave like you're saying it does. Never said he was calculating it's speed, the fact that he seen the beam at all is what makes him have lightspeed perception.
Also, if we assume that Polnareff and Chariot can indeed observe Hanged Man in that way because of their MFTL reaction speed then it comes back to my original point: they should've been able to defeat him with ease after figuring out his ability, since Hanged Man is not only massively slower than them, but both Chariot AND Polnareff can observe it moving. With MFTL attack speed, Polnareff wouldn't have had Kakyoin remove the reflective buttons of his uniform because the moment Hanged Man tries to go there, Chariot should be easily be able to slice him to a hundred pieces before even reaching its intended destination.

>As for how Hanged Man seems to be moving "slow" in the anime scans, that's like, how beams of light are generally portrayed in fiction to indicate its movements.

That's blatantly false. A lightspeed beam, moving at lightspeed, is shown slow in comparison to the Stand that then proceeds to nearly bisect it before it can reach its destination despite being super close. This point isnt even a point, it's blatant ignorance. If a beam of light is shown moving slowly compared to something else that is very clearly shown and does end up moving faster than it, tough luck, it's slower than then thing in question.

>In short, Silver Chariot should've comfortably defeated Hanged Man in no less ease than how Chariot deflected those supposed light speed beams from The Sun.

You're right, he should've. And ultimately does. His swing against is much, much faster than it. Just because his Stand User sucks doesnt mean the Stand itself isnt that fast. Though even in regards to the Stand User, he's being undersold here even if it's not that exact same speed.

>UNLESS what we're going to do is to ignore all of the blunders Polnareff and Kakyoin had in the Hanged Man arc, and instead just prefer the two instances where Chariot supposedly blitzes Hanged Man (which honestly just makes them all look like idiots with how difficult of an opponent Hanged Man was supposed to be).

Yes, the two instances where the Stand actually attacks and moves against the other Stand would confirm that Stand in question being that speed. Also Pol following the beam of light. Also Chariot's other FTL feat later on. Hell in most situations we'd call this PIS given it's explicitly contradicted by Chariot twice, and then contradicted again later on.

We can downgrade some Stands and characters, but Chariot himself is fine. Hell, downgrade Pol himself if you want, but the Stand itself is consistently fast as **** (Not like Stands are faster than the user half the time anyway).

 

[Chariot190]

Shouldnt only the right hand of The Hand be downgraded?

He was blitzed by RHCP when it got juiced. His hand is slow because of the giant sweeping motion it must do, but it's still a slow Stand that doesnt scale to anyone really except a Early CD. But CD gets way stronger as the part goes on, that includes speed as well.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Hm, fine then. What about JoJolion?

 

[Chariot190]

JoJolion may have a SOL feat. But idk, Part 7/8 should be put on the backburner for the time being.

Focus on Part's 1-6 as we dont have to deal with alternate reality bullshit when speaking of it. That's a whole other can of worms that needs to be settled first.

 

[Chariot190]

I'm not going to spend ten years arguing hanged man pol semantics. What's been said is said, there's not much more left to add and I dont feel like having this turn into a back and forth repeat of the same shit.

Let's move onto the next feat for now.

I think that's The Sun right?

To reiterate and post again.

The Sun's lasers are lightspeed. We know this for a multItude of reasons.
1. They come from a literal miniature sun. Specifically stated to come from the photosphere of it.
2. They move in a straight line. They do not curve or anything akin to that.
3. The beams don't explode, they burn and melt just like a actual laser-beam, they're explicitly stated to be light and heat-based.
4. They bounce off and reflect off shiny surfaces like Chariot's blade, they also bounce off in a straight line and not in a curve.
5. They were stated to be lasers by Joseph, who most certainly knows what an actual laser-beam is, given he had to deal with them several times in his youth.
6. Stated by multiple guides, these beams are light-rays. The official name for these beams even is called "Light-Ray Energy". Ergo, they're light-based lasers that are fired from a photosphere of a literal miniature star.
Here's two guide scans. The smaller one is where it's called Light-Ray Energy and specifies what they are. The other one is idk, forget where the relevant info is exactly so there's the whole thing. But the whole photosphere and heat and light based attack statement is somewhere in there.

As you can see, they not only qualify for every thing needed to be considered light, but they are even officially called light rays and lightbeams in all guides available.
As for the feat. Polnareff noticed the lasers coming long before they were even in view (at least lightspeed reaction, also probably an enhanced senses feat but that's something else entirely). Every other character as well manages to react to them in some manner (Joseph covers Kakyoin for example).
The big feat is Chariot deflecting several lasers all coming from in a shotgun like motion and managing to deflect every single one despite the distance between said lasers being miniscule. Again, aimdodging or striking isnt possible here, he deflects one beam then goes to deflect the next beam in succession when all beams are extremely close together.

And

Here, the red boxed parts are the parts that call them light rays, light beams and that it attacks with light beams and all that shit. For those that don't want to bother translating, you can clearly make out "光" in all instances multiple times.

This should be enough to confirm the legitimacy of the Sun feat.

 

[Metalballrun]

>Being FTL means shit if you dont know where to attack or where it's coming from or going.

While it's actually generally true that a character can get tagged by someone a lot slower than them if they're caught off guard, it's damning to see a character having a hard time to catch something that is supposedly 365x slower than it is, even after their ability is already figured out.
I mean we can chalk that up to them having shit reflexes but that's a massive speed gap.

>There is no "they could see it like a laser pointer", because this laser pointer moves at lightspeed for like a nanosecond then it's gone because it reached its destination. It's more akin to a lightspeed bullet then anything.

It's always been portrayed as a light beam, and makes light beams though. While not exactly a laser pointer, it is still noticeable especially for someone like Polnareff.

>You are wrong, very much so. Chariot attacks it after it begins moving but before it reaches its destination, multiple times. You cant intercept a lightspeed beam inches before it becomes unhittable, while you're over a meter away, without being faster than it. This is tantamount to saying you can dodge a bullet after it was fired, despite only beginning to dodge when it's a inch away from hitting you in the head, and then dodging like a meter before said bullet crosses that last inch.

I was saying that if Silver Chariot was indeed faster (365x according to the profile) then it should've had no trouble intercepting it when they discovered its ability regardless of its trajectory. But you're saying I'm wrong?
I also don't quite see where is the part that refutes my statement though?

>It's not an interpretation, he literally says it himself and we see it happen. There's nothing to interpret here at all.

It kinda is. Seeing a light beam/flashing light is a lot different from having MFTL reactions.

>Ignoring the fact the scene's are literally from his POV, I never said he was seeing it slow enough to be MFTL

No, but the profiles says he has MFTL reactions, and I'm assuming that is likely due to that.

>,just that he can and does very clearly see it happen. I swear to god we better not be actually saying normal ******* people can see the Hanged Man's laser now because holy shit.

Nobody is saying that. What I'm saying is that a normal human can look at a light beam (e.g. a laser pointer) and easily assume it's light speed because it's light. Polnareff is in a similar situation where he was able to notice Hanged Man's movements as a beam of light reflecting from surface to surface and it doesn't necessitate MFTL reactions to do so.

>That's blatantly false. A lightspeed beam, moving at lightspeed, is shown slow in comparison to the Stand that then proceeds to nearly bisect it before it can reach its destination despite being super close.

I was talking about Polnareff "observing" Hanged Man, not this feat you're talking about. I already said earlier in this thread that the anime portrays it in a way that makes Silver Chariot FTL.

>Just because his Stand User sucks doesnt mean the Stand itself isnt that fast. Though even in regards to the Stand User, he's being undersold here even if it's not that exact same speed.

Ultimately, the only thing I'm actually looking for in this entire argument is the justification for the logic about SC vs HM.
If this is the reason why Polnareff didn't stomp Hanged Man then it should be listed in his Weaknesses that he occasionally displays unimaginable levels of idiocy to be having a hard time against a massively slower opponent. That or a recalc is needed.

If we're going to call the entire Hanged Man arc (and some others like Chariot creating afterimages being seen as impressive) as PIS then I won't really argue with that any further since that's the only truly decisive answer to my question, but I'll be curious about other people's thoughts on that.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Slightly off-topic, but which Stands would scale from his feat? Could it apply to all Stands with an A in Speed, aside from Hanged Man of course, or only Stands that directly scale to Silver Chariot, Star Platinum, The World, et cetera?

 

[Chariot190]

>While it's actually generally true that a character can get tagged by someone a lot slower than them if they're caught off guard, it's damning to see a character having a hard time to catch something that is supposedly 365x slower than it is, even after their ability is already figured out. I mean we can chalk that up to them having shit reflexes but that's a massive speed gap.

And? Crazy Diamond can deflect thousands of bullets at a time, but cant deflect even a single one if he doesnt know where it's coming. This is an established thing. Pol can't exactly call out Chariot to intercept a beam of light that could be coming and going in like 40 different directions with little to no distance between said locations, with 66% of all locations and angles out of sight at any given time. Like it or not, this is a thing that's well established, cant hit what you cant see, cant defend when you dont know where. It's even made clear, even if you have the speed to easily do so, if you dont know then that's the end of it. This aint me saying this is how it should work, but rather how jojo as a verse treats it. Never said I like it either but if tht's how the verse acts then that's how it acts.
And yes, I dont think Kakyoin should be MFTL, so downgrading his ass is fine, he can be SOL or FTL barely with his Stand, he aint shit to the top tiers who perceive him in slowmotion and he had trouble against The Sun, Pol is a weird case, I'm neutral. But Chariot, the Stand itself? Nope, he's very clearly MFTL, he has the feats to back it up consistently.


>It's always been portrayed as a light beam, and makes light beams though. While not exactly a laser pointer, it is still noticeable especially for someone like Polnareff.

Yes, it is noticeable to someone like Polnareff? Polnareff noticing it is reason WHY he has fast perception, not that the beam is slow. The beam has a solid concrete stated speed. It moves at the speed of light. Polnareff can track and follow it's movements with his eyes, ie, he can percieve it. This contradicts the notion that he simply cant keep up with it at all in the slightest.


>I was saying that if Silver Chariot was indeed faster (365x according to the profile) then it should've had no trouble intercepting it when they discovered its ability regardless of its trajectory. But you're saying I'm wrong?I also don't quite see where is the part that refutes my statement though?

How can one intercept something if they dont even know when and where it's going to come from? The moment Chariot knew where it was going, he outright blitzed hilariously. All he needed to know was where out of the **** ton of paths it would take, once he did, Hanged Man was helpless, it didnt matter how fast he was because Chariot is faster, and proves it by, well, outright coming out after he was like a inch away and then proceeding to nearly bisect him, all before he reached the coin. Chariot's arm movement alone exceeds The Hanged Man.


>It kinda is. Seeing a light beam/flashing light is a lot different from having MFTL reactions.

It isnt though.
Polnareff sees a laserbeam move from object to object. "I just saw it happen". Like this aint really something subject to confusion.
Again, who the **** says he has MFTL reactions? I never once, anywhere at all in this thread, said that he had MFTL reactions, or that following the Hanged Man is MFTL. What i did say though was that very clearly following a beam of light moving at the speed of light is evidence of him being able to track the Hanged Man and sol perception.

>No, but the profiles says he has MFTL reactions, and I'm assuming that is likely due to that.

No, not why. To be honest a lot of the profiles need reworked justification and scans on a lot of things so I'll give you that. MFTL for god tier stands aint one of them (not saying Pol's reactions are 100% accurate, just Chariot's speed by itself). Though it's definitely not because of this, the reasoning used is from something else.

>,just that he can and does very clearly see it happen. I swear to god we better not be actually saying normal ******* people can see the Hanged Man's laser now because holy shit.

>Nobody is saying that. What I'm saying is that a normal human can look at a light beam (e.g. a laser pointer) and easily assume it's light speed because it's light. Polnareff is in a similar situation where he was able to notice Hanged Man's movements as a beam of light reflecting from surface to surface and it doesn't necessitate MFTL reactions to do so.

Except a normal human wouldnt be able to follow the beam traveling and follow it's movements, they'd just see the beam after it was there. And that's assuming the Hanged Man's laser lingers around, it kinda doesnt dude. The laser is himself, he is physically the laser, when he reaches his destination, the laser, 99% of the time vanishes because he's reached the point and is no longer, well, traveling as a ******* laser. For Pol to see the laser, he'd only have a timeframe to notice it that it'd take light to move from said to objects. That's it, And thats how it's portrayed in literally everything. The notion and example being used here is a false analogy, it simply doesnt work or apply. Again, never said that was MFTL. I'd appreciate it of you didnt skew my statements to imply I said something I haven't.

>I was talking about Polnareff "observing" Hanged Man, not this feat you're talking about. I already said earlier in this thread that the anime portrays it in a way that makes Silver Chariot FTL.

Yes, never said him tracking HM was MFTL, just that it disproves he couldnt follow him at all. Not just the anime, the manga and OVA as well. In all three he only comes out and attacks after the Hanged Man is nearly there. In all 3 the feat is portrayed the same, ironically, the anime version is the slowest interpretation of the feat. Manga being middleground.

>Just because his Stand User sucks doesnt mean the Stand itself isnt that fast. Though even in regards to the Stand User, he's being undersold here even if it's not that exact same speed.

>Ultimately, the only thing I'm actually looking for in this entire argument is the justification for the logic about SC vs HM.

The justification is kinda blatant, Chariot manages to tag him twice after he begins moving. And in the main example, clearly shows his superior speed, coming out and attacking long like an inch away before he reaches the safe zone, the coin. To put that into perspective, the Hanged Man, moving at light speed comes out, flies towards the coin, almost reaches it, THEN Chariot comes out, beats him to the coin, swings his arm and slashes him, nearly bisects him, all before the Hanged Man could cover that last bit of distance, while in the same timeframe, Chariot exceeded that same distace and even attacked swinging his arm a distance greater than that HM had to do. Couple that with, well, an feat later where he basically deflects four Hanged Men simultaneously. Kinda speaks for itself. We see on panel a direct comparison between Chariot and Hanged Man, and Chariot comes out on top, and he has other feats that support this. Kinda straightforward.

>If this is the reason why Polnareff didn't stomp Hanged Man then it should be listed in his Weaknesses that he occasionally displays unimaginable levels of idiocy to be having a hard time against a massively slower opponent. That or a recalc is needed.

Or it's just PIS in the same vain Light-Speed Dyspo being lightspeed could blitz the MFTL Frieza and Gohan and Zeno. Even though feats say otherwise, and in some cases they react anyway even though they're portrayed slower. That or Pol may just have slower reactions around sol opposed to MFTL, as he doesnt have shared senses with his Stand, a good example of this would be the Ebony Devil arc.

>If we're going to call the entire Hanged Man arc (and some others like Chariot creating afterimages being seen as impressive) as PIS then I won't really argue with that any further since that's the only truly decisive answer to my question, but I'll be curious about other people's thoughts on that.

we aren't calling the entire Hanged Man Arc PIS, only one specific instance that is contradicted four times by the characters in question, three in that very arc. Saying otherwise would be double standards and hypocritical, I'm aware of the statement, but there's far to much explicit visual evidence confirming its bullshit to actually be used as a counterargument. Afterimages dont change anything? Afterimages rely on the perception of those who seen them. Afterimages as a concept dont have a set solid speed. Same.

 

[Chariot190]

Slightly off-topic, but which Stands would scale from his feat? Could it apply to all Stands with an A in Speed, aside from Hanged Man of course, or only Stands that directly scale to Silver Chariot, Star Platinum, The World, et cetera?

Just the top tier Stands really. Star Platinum (fought an amped version, stated to be faster), The World, King Crimson, Chariot itself, maybe some of Part 5, but to a lesser degree, GE and SF for example would scale, but not in full, they can react to characters like King Crimson, but barely. Part 4 is on its own, except maybe Crazy Diamond at his peak and maybe Killer Queen (though to fraction, he's slower than CD at his best and explicitly slower then even a dying Star Platinum).

As said, I'm fine downgrades to some of the cast. Just not the top tier characters with the feats that confirm theyre that fast. I mean, scaling every Stand worth a damn to MFTL off of Star Platinum is outright bullshit so downgrades are needed, I just disagree with downgrading Chariot and above.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with Chariot. (The User.)

 

[Rikimarox2]

I agree with chariot as well.

 

[Chariot190]

Anyway, moving on from the hanged man shit.

What's next? RHCP?

That's fine. If you wanna downgrade Part 4 for the most part (keyword there) to like Rel+-SOL, maybe slightly FTL then go ahead.
There's no real concrete scaling to say they're above that, the only possible scaling is a crusty ass Star Platinum who's explicitly out of his MFTL prime, who's still the fastest ************ in the part without question as stated by literally everyone including wog, hell, Star Platinum when heavily weakened and bleeding out>>>>>>Killer Queen who's somewhat fresh>>>>>>>>Echoes Act 3>Basically the first half of Part 4. A case could maybe be made for Peak CD to backscale but for the most part, sure, go for the downgrade on a chunk of them, been thinking on that for awhile now anyway. Not enough evidence, feats or scaling to say they're anything higher other than Rel-FTL, trying to scale to Star Platinum which is super sus given the other statements and feats all say he's hilariously above them all, so it is what it is unfortunately. (Hell, using Part 5 scaling via Echoes doesn't even work, he has no feats of actually reacting to anyone explicitly and the only hits he got in where basically because his opponents were just standing there).

Though, I think there was talk about Josuke's bloodlust being an amp? It is, but that's mostly because getting balls to the walls pissed off amp the Stand as well, as like, a general rule. It's stated to be the case with Jotaro and Star Platinum (against Dio, confirmed in guides), was shown to be a thing with Pol and Chariot, honestly its just how Stands work as they're influenced by the user's mental state. If Josuke got super pissed off, of course his Stand's output would increase, how much though? **** if I know, at least a noticeable amount but how much is noticeable? Again, **** if I know. Though against Heaven's Door, yeah, him not being effected is a weakness for Heaven's Door, though Rohan eventually overcomes it and learns how to manifest his Stand directly and not just through manuscripts (even says himself that his ability with his stand increased after his match with Josuke and co, and that he learned how to better use it).

 

[Chariot190]

I'll have to check Part 6 for some speed scaling to see if that can stay, otherwise, I have a few pocket bit feats we could use, though it'd be a downgrade.
Part 5 and 3 though are indeed safe, just like, tone it the **** down for everyone not named King Crimson or Chariot/Star Platinum/The World/Cream, the top tiers should stay MFTL, everyone else can scale to their own shit or just backscale into FTL+ low end or FTL from the big boys (assuming there's interactions to warrant backscaling) unless there's damn good reason to say they scale in full.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with the OP

 

[Huzy]

Why is it even necessary to argue Hanged Man anymore? It's contradicted by everything else so Polnareff not being able to keep up can just be labeled as PIS and like Chariot said this has been replicated before for other verses where an entire mini arc was ignored due to there being more consistent feats.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Except that not only our interpretation of the feat contradict what we're told, but it's a outlier compared to all others feats.

Seriously we even havesome "the fight was about hM being small not slow". If we're going to rewrite a whole fight to suit what we want, it's entirely against the indexing aspect of the wiki.

The fight is about him being slower, him appearing to be faster is just the fault of Araki's not-so-good drawing. If we hadd like another MFTL feat then yeah why not. But this one time calc incoherent with the story? It's as legit a putting all of JJBA supersonic for a single feat.

 

[Hasch]

Also Polnareff isn't following the HM as it moves from surface to surface, he is just reacting to the shine it moves which it's at best relativistic.


The feat itself can't be calced properly because the perspective is completely wrong so there's no reliable distance to the coin, we also don't see but we are told Pol had prepared SC to hit the beam so at least in the manga SC was near the coin waiting for HM, the anime is non canon.

 

[Chariot190]

The main point of contention is literally proven false on 4 separate occasions by the dude who's supposed to be slower than it. One of which is at a different point in time. Essentially confirming that, even at best, it's just a PIS riddled line tantamount to Dyspo's Light-Speed mode being a huge issue for the MFTL cast.

Like we have Pol saying that the Hanged Man is lightspeed so he's hard to hit basically and needs to know the trajectory (even though this aint just because of speed, there's several factors in play here, even if speed is a factor, it isnt the only thing).

But

Pol himself literally tracks the Hanged Man moving at lightspeed between surfaces (how he figured out his ability, he saw him do it, laser-pointer excuse literally doesnt work, not how Hanged Man functions).
Chariot manages to tag and slash the Hanged Man after he began moving at lightspeed.
In the big crucial climax, Chariot manages to come out, travel some distance, and swing his sword and nearly bisect the Hanged Man, all before the Hanged Man could cover a distance of like a few cm at most, and all this happened after Hanged Man was that distance away but finished before he could finish crossing it.
Throw onto that Chariot having a feat later on where he casually deflects four beams of light simultaneously, essentially confirming that yeah, in normal circumstances Chariot is way above lightspeed.

The arguments of aim dodge or striking ahead of time don't work because that's literally not what happens, Chariot always attacked afterwards, explicitly so, saying anything else is basically lying. It'd be like saying Frieza cant bust a planet and always core busts, even though we that to not be the case and he can pop a planet whenever he wants.

Are options are take Pol's one line and say that because of it, Chariot and friends aren't the speed their feats actually portray them as, including the very feats against this character in question which including blitzing him as well as ignoring other feats not effected by things like plot which support said other feats. Or we just say that line was PIS (especially as its shown false before and after it's said) or and use the explicit FTL feats and above that show said character being drastically faster, both against the character he's allegedly slower than in question, as well as other feats elsewhere that confirm that he's much faster.

>Except that not only our interpretation of the feat contradict what we're told, but it's a outlier compared to all others feats.

What? Do you know what the word "Interpretation" means?

1. the action of explaining the meaning of something.
   
   • an explanation or way of explaining.
     
     
     

Guess what this isnt is? An interpretation. Chariot coming out and attacking The Hanged Man after he began moving multiple times and in one instance very clearly undeniably exceeding him in speed and outright blitzing him isn't an intepretation. It's what outright happens on panel, and in the case of both anime, on screen, for all to see.
There is no interpretation, there's only hard concrete visual proof and showings. And outlier? That's where you're wrong. It's only an outlier if it's consistently contradicted with no viable explanation to why said contradictions may exist. Like it or not, Chariot has a MFTL feat, he has another feat of tagging The Hanged Man as well, he also has a FTL+ feat to support this rating. Couple that with other characters like Kars having FTL+ feats pulled out his ass on a dime. The pnly way to say it's an outlier is to literally lie through your teeth and deny everything that says it isnt.

>Seriously we even havesome "the fight was about hM being small not slow". If we're going to rewrite a whole fight to suit what we want, it's entirely against the indexing aspect of the wiki.

Good for that one person, ironic as it is, that's not even the most ridiculous claim here. And it has nothing to do rewriting the fight. If anything, blatant ignorance and ignoring explicit feats and multiple occurances of the statement you're clinging onto as gospel being proven false multiple times over would be rewriting the fight. Like it or not, Chariot is faster than The Hanged Man, we see explicit proof of this 4 times, by this character alone. Is it against the indexing aspect of the wiki? No, because PIS and feats>statements is a thing the wiki very much follows. What would be against the indexing aspect of the wiki is ignoring numerous explicit feats because of a singular statement that's contradicted multiple times over.

>The fight is about him being slower, him appearing to be faster is just the fault of Araki's not-so-good drawing. If we hadd like another MFTL feat then yeah why not. But this one time calc incoherent with the story? It's as legit a putting all of JJBA supersonic for a single feat.

The fight is about Polnareff having trouble hitting a lightspeed target that could be coming and going from anywhere and as such he cant properly hit it because its speed allows it to escape and reach the destination in time if he doesn't know where its going to come from and when. This is a very explicit established thing in JoJo. You oversimplifying it to suit your argument is dishonest as all **** dude. And another MFTL? Maybe not, but what we do have is casual FTL+ done by the same character to support it along with other characters having FTL+ feats. This is like getting mad over a verse being rated as Mach 5, because there's only a single mach 5 feat but multiple mach 3+ feats. Oh, and in regards to "Araki cant draw good so the feat is wrong". Are you really that desperate to straight up lie? The **** does drawing have to do with anything? Chariot comes out after The Hanged Man is literally mere centimeters away from the coin, and Chariot hits him before he can cover that distance, This has nothing to do with art or drawing, and you forgot to mention it's portrayed the exact same way in both anime adaptions as well so it sure as hell aint just a early Araki art thing. Last bit is a false analogy.

But yes, let's ignore the numerous feats that say Chariot>>>>>>>Hanged Man, including feats in the very arc that outright confirm he is, all because Pol said one thing that in a normal situation would be said to just be PIS as his feats consistently put him far above Hanged Man, including both before, and after that line was said. Contradicted by Pol himself literally following the Hanged Man himself.

To quote our very wiki.

"Plot-Induced Stupidity

---

Description​

PIS, short for "Plot-Induced Stupidity" is a term used to refer to events in a story that contradict a character's normal capabilities for the purpose of the plot. For example, if a generally competent, intelligent villain does something stupid like not killing the hero immediately when he has the chance, and that allows the hero to win, that would be an example of PIS (If the villain was just incompetent in general, it would be CIS, or short for "Character-Induced Stupidity" instead).

Examples of PIS​

• Hulk being defeated by Captain America, and an ordinary python, or being severely harmed by regular gorillas.
• Thor being knocked unconscious by an ordinary gunshot.
• Superboy-Prime being able to harm Mister Mxyzptlk, and being defeated himself by the Teen Titans.
• Dormammu being harmed by Cyclops, and defeated by Illyana Rasputina, or Frankenstein's Monster.
• Spiderman beating Firelord.
• Arceus losing its Plates and nearly dying after stopping a meteor.
• Black Panther subduing the Silver Surfer.
• Gambit beating Gladiator.
• She-Hulk almost being killed by a very small explosion.
• Zack Fair being killed by bullets."

Pol not being able to keep track of the Hanged Man even though he literally does multiple times and his Stand being able to tag and blitz the Hanged Man despite said line, along with supporting feats elsewhere where he basically deflects multiple Hanged Men at once would kinda suggest that Pol saying a loine that gets contradicted multiple times over is a perfect example of PIS.
And as for outlier, well it literally isnt. It's only an outlier if treat the PIS line as gospel.

 

[Chariot190]

Also Polnareff isn't following the HM as it moves from surface to surface, he is just reacting to the shine it moves which it's at best relativistic.


The feat itself can't be calced properly because the perspective is completely wrong so there's no reliable distance to the coin, we also don't see but we are told Pol had prepared SC to hit the beam so at least in the manga SC was near the coin waiting for HM, the anime is non canon.

Except he literally is. Do you need a panel by panel and frame by frame breakdown? Doesnt matter what it is, it disproves the notion he cant keep up with it. Doesnt mean that feat in particular is MFTL, of course it isnt, but it does prove he can keep up with it fine.

Perspective? You do realize the the perspective and angle is a dead on straight shot? In which we see exactly how far away the beam of light is from the coin? The feat couldn't get any simpler to calc then it already is.

Polnareff never says that he had Chariot out and ready in that scene, only the scene prior. Saying he did is a blatant lie, especially when we see Chariot wasn't summoned at all untill Pol yells "Now!". If you're going to say he had Chariot up and ready, you could at least make sure he actually says that and it's not a blatant falsehood in regards to his MFTL feat.

That's also completely wrong. Chariot literally only comes out after Hanged Man begins moving and is already mostly there, we even hear him yell "Now!", telling us exactly when he began his strike, that being when Now! was said when he almost reached the coin. And even then, at the absolute ******* minimum, that would mean Chariot didn't actually swing till HM was said distance away, meaning Chariot's swing is MFTL, though not that it matters because what you're saying is literally factually incorrect and not what occurred.

Also wrong on that front, the anime can be used if the scene is portrayed to be identical to the manga's, which, of course, both the anime, OVA and even games depict the feat to happen the exact same way as the manga, which of course, has Chariot outpace and tag the Hanged Man when he was already close to the coin.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I'm gonna write a better response once I'm on PC; but sayoing that the fight itself is PIS to the feat (which isn't treated as him being faster anywhere) is the exact opposite of the PIS examples.

Hulk being beaten by Captain America doesn't mean it's his others things who are PIS, it's Captain America. SC hitting HM that way doesn't mean the entire fight is PIS with only this being the only legit thing, it's this feat which is the PIS.

Also yeah, ignoring statements in fight including fight which aren't based on raw power to "it looks like he's faster in the fight"? Guess Pol is a liar who didn't want to kill him and restrained itself until the end to let Kakyoin shine. Seeing how the calc is taking prescedence over the work is just plain ridiculous imo.

 

[Huzy]

> Except that not only our interpretation of the feat contradict what we're told, but it's a outlier compared to all others feats.

What interpretation? Silver Chariot being shown on screen to hit it multiple times after it started moving? It's not aim striking in the slightest.

> Seriously we even havesome "the fight was about hM being small not slow". If we're going to rewrite a whole fight to suit what we want, it's entirely against the indexing aspect of the wiki.

Nobody made the argument about Hanged Man being small, we're not rewriting anything, the entire fight is not consistent with anything else that's shown by Polnareff.

> The fight is about him being slower, him appearing to be faster is just the fault of Araki's not-so-good drawing. If we hadd like another MFTL feat then yeah why not. But this one time calc incoherent with the story? It's as legit a putting all of JJBA supersonic for a single feat.

Except for the fact that him being slower is contradicted by every single thing, 3 times in the fight itself and 2 times outside of it, those times being The Sun feat and Jotaro considering Chariot as an opponent he can't go easy on. You can call it an art inconsistency all you want but that won't change the fact that Polnareff being slower is the real inconsistency here.

 

[Chariot190]

>I'm gonna write a better response once I'm on PC; but sayoing that the fight itself is PIS to the feat (which isn't treated as him being faster anywhere) is the exact opposite of the PIS examples.

Who the **** said the whole fight is PIS? Just the statement. Everything else before a certain point is literally just them not knowing he's moving as a beam of light so it's entirely moot, they think he had some mirror world magic shit. Everything after they learn he's a beam of light? Is literally contradicted because Chariot tags him, then blitzes him clear as day, undeniably, on screen, and a chunk of it can even be explained via the fact hitting an opponent with like 40 different trajectories with over half being out of view at all times aint exactly that simple regardless of how fast you are, especially when it's established time and time again that in JoJo, it doesnt matter how fast you are, if you dont know where an attack is coming from, you cant defend or counter, hell this alone started in Part 3 even.

No, it's a perfect example, a statement is given that implies a level that is drastically below the feats of said character. It's like Zack dying to basic ass bullets when normally he can tank them or how Zeno cant keep with a lightspeed Dyspo. Both are examples of a character failing to do something that they otherwise normally could (Except in this instance Pol ends up doing it anyway).

>Hulk being beaten by Captain America doesn't mean it's his others things who are PIS, it's Captain America. SC hitting HM that way doesn't mean the entire fight is PIS with only this being the only legit thing, it's this feat which is the PIS.

Except the feat happens twice, and then another feat happens later which further cements it as complete bullshit. Yes, 3, actually 4, explicit contradictions are the PIS, and not the line that serves just to create tension that's proven false by the feats.

>Also yeah, ignoring statements in fight including fight which aren't based on raw power to "it looks like he's faster in the fight"? Guess Pol is a liar who didn't want to kill him and restrained itself until the end to let Kakyoin shine. Seeing how the calc is taking prescedence over the work is just plain ridiculous imo.

Actually, feats>statements. That's how it's always worked. Chariot has 3 feats that prove the statement wrong. Ergo, feat>statement. Or, maybe, instead of him being a liar, the line is simply contradicted by multiple feats we see happen plain as day on panel that prove the notion of the statement being unusable in regards to scaling and as a counterargument? you're literally saying a single line that's proven false multiple times over takes precedence over explicit feats? Yeah, no, tough luck there dude.

To give you an idea of how ridiculous and ignorant you're being here, this is basically equal to downgrading Dragon Ball Super to Rel+ or extreme lowend FTL because character's failed to react and keep up with Dyspo in his light-speed mode, even though they have feats that contradict the statement of them only being barely able to react to a lightspeed and barely FTL opponent.
Im not even sure why this is a topic of debate, this is identical to saying someone says they cant react to a bullet, after they just reacted to a bullet, and then dodged a bullet right after, then go on to pluck sniper round out of mid air centimeters before it hits them while doing a backflip in the same chapter. Then proceeds to go on to dodge and deflect bullets later on as the story goes on too and fight other bullet dodging and deflecting characters.
Whatever happened to feats>statements? Especially several feats including feats that prove said statements false in the same chapters? Are we really gonna pull some double standard shit here? We aren't downgrading DB super to Rel+ for being slower than light, or ripping pokemon as a whole verse apart due to shit like saying Goodra only hits as hard as a boxer or Machamp's punches are only subsonic at best. We're not going to do any of that because feats contradict those notions, and we sure as hell aint doing it here either.

 

[Hasch]

Except he literally is. Do you need a panel by panel and frame by frame breakdown? Doesnt matter what it is, it disproves the notion he cant keep up with it. Doesnt mean that feat in particular is MFTL, of course it isnt, but it does prove he can keep up with it fine.

Not at all, because he later says is too fast for him so in context he is just following the light flashes as it moves and reaches surfaces instead of actually following HM.

Perspective? You do realize the the perspective and angle is a dead on straight shot? In which we see exactly how far away the beam of light is from the coin? The feat couldn't get any simpler to calc then it already is.

Polnareff never says that he had Chariot out and ready in that scene, only the scene prior. Saying he did is a blatant lie, especially when we see Chariot wasn't summoned at all untill Pol yells "Now!". If you're going to say he had Chariot up and ready, you could at least make sure he actually says that and it's not a blatant falsehood in regards to his MFTL feat.

That's also completely wrong. Chariot literally only comes out after Hanged Man begins moving and is already mostly there, we even hear him yell "Now!", telling us exactly when he began his strike, that being when Now! was said when he almost reached the coin. And even then, at the absolute ******* minimum, that would mean Chariot didn't actually swing till HM was said distance away, meaning Chariot's swing is MFTL, though not that it matters because what you're saying is literally factually incorrect and not what occurred.

Also wrong on that front, the anime can be used if the scene is portrayed to be identical to the manga's, which, of course, both the anime, OVA and even games depict the feat to happen the exact same way as the manga, which of course, has Chariot outpace and tag the Hanged Man when he was already close to the coin.

The perspective and angle is completely wrong as the beam of light is actually farther from the coin in the next panels, as well as the distance between the coin and the vagrant being impossible to asses because the depth of the panel changes.

We only see Polnareff focused panels so he could have deployed SC as he kick sand towards the vagrant in order to have it ready to strike when HM starts moving, this falls in line whit how he explained the first cut.

And no, anime is noncanon whit elements we don't see in the manga.

 

[Chariot190]

>Not at all, because he later says is too fast for him so in context he is just following the light flashes as it moves and reaches surfaces instead of actually following HM.

Maybe you haven't been keeping up but that's LITERALLY the whole point of contention. Yeah. he says it's pretty fast, that's true. To bad it's literally proven false by him tracking its movement clear as day and then him going on to tag him multiple times, and then him going on later in the series to perform other FTL+ feats. And as said, do you need a frame by frame, panel by panel breakdown? Surely you can't be this blind.

>The perspective and angle is completely wrong as the beam of light is actually farther from the coin in the next panels, as well as the distance between the coin and the vagrant being impossible to asses because the depth of the panel changes.

That isnt a perspective and angle issue. The depth being impossible to tell? You do know a formula for that exists? (And funnily enough, the size of the coin comes out to be the exact same regardless of the depth when compared to the man, it's actually accounted for by Araki). And we actually know how far away it is and at what angle because we get an overhead shot of the coin a few panels prior after Kak tosses it up, showing the coin to be directly above the man, which is why the Hanged Man travels at a literal 90 degree angle, because said coin is above the man in a straight vertical line.

>We only see Polnareff focused panels so he could have deployed SC as he kick sand towards the vagrant in order to have it ready to strike when HM starts moving, this falls in line whit how he explained the first cut.

Except that's literally wrong, not what happens, is consistently shown to not what be happened, even proclaims when he goes in to attack, and Chariot explicitly swings after the Hanged Man reached a certain point, making said swing undeniably happen after a certain confirmed point, resulting in a MFTL swing. The first cut doesnt even fit what youre saying either because Chariot swings after he began moving in the instance too, resulting in, once again, another slash faster then the hanged man.

>And no, anime is noncanon whit elements we don't see in the manga.

Good thing the scene is portrayed exactly the same across every single media adaption of the feat then. Anime being canon doesnt matter, it's evidence of how the scene plays out, you claiming "its noncanon so it doesnt count" doesnt even work because anime feats are allowed as long as they're portrayed the exact same, in fact, in some instances, it's even preferred if the anime has more consistent shots and scaling without deviating from the source material, which again, it doesnt in thios instance, in fact none of them do.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Sigh. It sounds like it'll go into circle more than anything. Polnareff MFTL is as legit as FTL Goblin Slayer (who dodged a similar LS ray several times but a statement says it is aimdodging). You can't just ignore an explanation because most works surpringly aren't just picture books.

Might as well just see what others will say, since I doubt this kind of back and forth will make anything advance.

 

[Chariot190]

>Sigh. It sounds like it'll go into circle more than anything. Polnareff MFTL is as legit as FTL Goblin Slayer (who dodged a similar LS ray several times but a statement says it is aimdodging). You can't just ignore an explanation because most works surpringly aren't just picture books.

Clearly. Polanreff being MFTL? No, I never said that, don't strawman here. What I said was Chariot is MFTL, he has multiple feats to back this up and, like it or not, feats>statements, especially when the feats happen multiple times. Don't like it? Oh well, feats are feats, feats take precedence over a literal Grade A example of a PIS statement that's promptly and consistenly shown false elsewhere in the fight and even later on in other fights. Funny how manga is literal a picture book.
Also aimdodging? In both instances it being aimdodging is literally impossible, I'm not even saying it could be interpreted as something else or its possible that it isnt. It's simply literally not what happens. You can ignore an explanation if that explanation is contradicted multiple times, that's well literally how it works. If that's how you think, when do you plan on downgrading DBZ and Pokemon, especially the latter, for an astonishingly large amount of low end statements that we dont use as a the tier because of higher feats and contradictions? Subsonic Machamp is a good example.

>Might as well just see what others will say, since I doubt this kind of back and forth will make anything advance.

News flash, I already said as much like 20 posts back and said the other points should be discussed instead instead of wasting the next ten days discussing this shit because what's been said has been said and nobody is gonna add anything else of importance because there literally isnt anything to add that hasnt already been said.

 

[Hasch]

Maybe you haven't been keeping up but that's LITERALLY the whole point of contention. Yeah. he says it's pretty fast, that's true. To bad it's literally proven false by him tracking its movement clear as day and then him going on to tag him multiple times, and then him going on later in the series to perform other FTL+ feats. And as said, do you need a frame by frame, panel by panel breakdown? Surely you can't be this blind.

But tracking his moves trough following the flashes of light as it reaches their targets doesn't need him to be as fast as HM, as well as the only two times he was able to hit him was because of timing.

https://xy-06-w.*********.net/66/c0/5c5c459dbc54687ab0880c66/21_198748_780_1200.webp

That isnt a perspective and angle issue. The depth being impossible to tell? You do know a formula for that exists? (And funnily enough, the size of the coin comes out to be the exact same regardless of the depth when compared to the man, it's actually accounted for by Araki). And we actually know how far away it is and at what angle because we get an overhead shot of the coin a few panels prior after Kak tosses it up, showing the coin to be directly above the man, which is why the Hanged Man travels at a literal 90 degree angle, because said coin is above the man in a straight vertical line.

Except the coin is closer to us in one panel and further in the next, and closer to the vagrant first and further in the next yet we know it didn't move.

https://xy-06-w.*********.net/76/c0/5c5c45d4bc54687ab0880c67/15_143448_780_1200.webp

xcept that's literally wrong, not what happens, is consistently shown to not what be happened, even proclaims when he goes in to attack, and Chariot explicitly swings after the Hanged Man reached a certain point, making said swing undeniably happen after a certain confirmed point, resulting in a MFTL swing. The first cut doesnt even fit what youre saying either because Chariot swings after he began moving in the instance too, resulting in, once again, another slash faster then the hanged man.

Or Polnareff says now as the vagrant closes it's eyes and then the previously deployed SC slashes and cut HM when it is already near the coin.

Because that what Polnareff explains he is doing.

Otherwise this wouldn't be possible, HM just moving around Pol and Kakyoin without them being able to do anything about it

https://xy-06-w.*********.net/76/c0/5c5c45d4bc54687ab0880c67/10_203878_780_1200.webp

Good thing the scene is portrayed exactly the same across every single media adaption of the feat then. Anime being canon doesnt matter, it's evidence of how the scene plays out, you claiming "its noncanon so it doesnt count" doesnt even work because anime feats are allowed as long as they're portrayed the exact same, in fact, in some instances, it's even preferred if the anime has more consistent shots and scaling without deviating from the source material, which again, it doesnt in thios instance, in fact none of them do.

But they aren't portrayed the same, the anime shows SC flying faster than HM and positioning itself between it and the coin, the manga only shows SC cutting HM from the side.

 

[Huzy]

Silver Chariot moving to the coin isn't even calculated in the calc that's used, it simply calculated the slash. Which would still end up MFTL even if you recalc.

 

[Chariot190]

>But tracking his moves trough following the flashes of light as it reaches their targets doesn't need him to be as fast as HM, as well as the only two times he was able to hit him was because of timing.

Except he literally follows the beam of light, not just the glistening. Except both times being because of timing is LITERALLY WRONG. Holy shit how dense are you? Go try and cut a bullet after it was fired with timing, because you wont, you'd get shot in the chest and die. Chariot swinging a distance of like 150cm radius semi circle after a lightspeed object moves, with said distance that lightspeed object having to move being less the total distance of the swing, results in literally 100% far faster speed. This isnt difficult to comprehend, I'm actually baffled at this.


>Except the coin is closer to us in one panel and further in the next, yet we know it didn't move.

You're right, I just ran some math and did some angsizing in reference to cross checking some panels. Congratulations, the feat doesnt actually change because the distance being calculated isnt the distance from the main to the coin, but the distance from the tip of the beam of light to the coin, which has no reliance on where the coin is placed in regards to the POV, only the light itself.

>Or Polnareff says now as the vagrant closes it's eyes and then the previously deployed SC slashes and cut HM when it is already near the coin.

Except that isnt what happens? Chariot only comes out after we see the light being very close to the coin, Chariot also only swings after he's out (I mean ******* obviously?), ergo, Chariot swings at MFTL speeds. Hell, you do realize the MFTL calc is ONLY Chariot's swing right? The thing that absolutely couldnt have happened before a certain point?

>Because that what Polnareff explains he is doing.

He explained it one time, and the time that's relevant, he doesnt do that.

>Otherwise this wouldn't be possible, HM just moving around Pol and Kakyoin without them being able to do anything about it

Thanks for confirming my point.

"There are enough surfaces to reflect off that you won't be able to find its trajectory" and "Unless you want to hurt these people".

Thanks, you just posted explicit proof that the fact there was a metric **** ton of trajectories was a issue, not just the speed, and that Pol couldnt just up and attack unless he wanted to kill some people.

Also I cant tell if you're all just being purposely ignorant but nobody is ******* saying Pol himself is 100% MFTL, literally just Chariot.

 

[Chariot190]

>But they aren't portrayed the same, the anime shows SC flying faster than HM and positioning itself between it and the coin, the manga only shows SC cutting HM from the side.

The anime, OVA, games, etc all portray Hanged Man coming out, getting close to the coin, then Chariot coming out, beating him there, and slashing.
Chariot slashes him from a different angle in the manga (Maybe, as mentioned above in the angsizing, the anime may actually be extremely accurate). And Chariot slashed him from the side (He actually didnt, he slashed him top to bottom, with his blade intercepting the Stand as we can tell by the cut HM receives). Doesnt change the fact Chariot comes out after and attacks only after a certain point, this being explicitly shown in every single adaption.