Let's slow down a little (JJBA speed downgrade)

[Hasch]

xcept he literally follows the beam of light, not just the glistening. Except both times being because of timing is LITERALLY WRONG. Holy shit how dense are you? Go try and cut a bullet after it was fired with timing, because you wont, you'd get shot in the chest and die. Chariot swinging a distance of like 150cm radius semi circle after a lightspeed object moves, with said distance that lightspeed object having to move being less the total distance of the swing, results in literally 100% far faster speed. This isnt difficult to comprehend, I'm actually baffled at this.

He is just following the flash of light as it reflects from the objects, that's why he outright says he can't keep up with that speed.

That's also why Kakyoin deduces it's light speed since it's a reflection, and not Polnareff saying "Ah, that is moving at LS"

Except that isnt what happens? Chariot only comes out after we see the light being very close to the coin, Chariot also only swings after he's out (I mean ******* obviously?), ergo, Chariot swings at MFTL speeds. Hell, you do realize the MFTL calc is ONLY Chariot's swing right? The thing that absolutely couldnt have happened before a certain point?

We don't see Chariot being deployed so it could be near the coin as it's logical for it to be.

You're right, I just ran some math and did some angsizing in reference to cross checking some panels. Congratulations, the feat doesnt actually change because the distance being calculated isnt the distance from the main to the coin, but the distance from the tip of the beam of light to the coin, which has no reliance on where the coin is placed in regards to the POV, only the light itself.

But the whole scan is unreliable in terms of distances and angles, the light itself is further from the coin in the next panel before even being cut.

If you could calc the distance vagrant-coin then you could calc the time light needs to reach the coint and that would be the time SC needs to make a cut.

SC didn't wait for HM to almost reach the coin, that was how far it got before SC finished his slash.

He explained it one time, and the time that's relevant, he doesnt do that.

He isn't going to explain the same thing over and over again, the situation is the exact same both times so it would be a waste of panels.

Thanks, you just posted explicit proof that the fact there was a metric **** ton of trajectories was a issue, not just the speed, and that Pol couldnt just up and attack unless he wanted to kill some people.

The number of trajectories would be irrelevant if he was faster, that scan proves he is not, in accordance to his dialogues saying he is not.

 

[Chariot190]

>He is just following the flash of light as it reflects from the objects, that's why he outright says he can't keep up with that speed.

Except, he's literally following the BEAM OF LIGHT. Which is WHY him saying that is a load of shit. What here are you incapable of comprehending?

>That's also why Kakyoin deduces it's light speed since it's a reflection, and not Polnareff saying "Ah, that is moving at LS"

Except you're literally ignoring the fact Polnareff visually follows the beam of light, not just the glint. like hot damn dude learn to read, actually this isnt even about reading, its about not denying explicit contradictory evidence.

>We don't see Chariot being deployed so it could be near the coin as it's logical for it to be.

Except it isnt. You're literally pulling that out your ass, going to be blunt here, but complete conjecture that is literally proven wrong isnt an actual counterpoint. Chariot isnt up and waiting by the coin because we see like a dozen shots all around Pol that outright confirm Chariot had yet to be summoned, he's nowhere to be seen, and Chariot's range at this point in time is only 1 meter. Then, when the feat actually happens, the Hanged Man comes out, gets close to the coin, Polnareff explicitly yells NOW!, his Stand comes and slashes Hanged Man. This is what happens, this also is what happens in every single adaption, supporting, if not outright confirming, that's what happened. Stop with the bullshit here, I'm not here to argue your conjecture. And even then, after all this is said and done, the swing, the thing that was actually calced COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED BEFORE THAT POINT, it is literally ******* IMPOSSIBLE, the slash happened AFTER he was near the coin, not before, not while, he is hit clear as day after he gets close, with it being confirmed the slash only started when he was near the end. This isnt even an argument, you are literally wrong om this front. This isnt even a topic of debate, what youre imply happens isnt what actually happened.

>But the whole scan is unreliable in terms of distances and angles, the light itself is further from the coin than when SC cuts him.

I dont think you understand what angsizing is, or what the calc actually calculated. Not of that is actually relevant or effects the calc at all.

>If you could calc the distance vagrant-coin then you could calc the time light needs to reach the coint and that would be the time SC needs to make a cut.

Except, that'd only be relevant if Chariot began attacking at the same time he began moving, he didnt, he began attacking when he was almost touching the coin. This isnt subject to debate, it's literally what we see, and, given you're so keen on clinging to statements, even told, as Pol says "Now!", when he's about to attack, and when he says that, Hanged Man is already close to the coin.

>SC didn't wait for HM to almost reach the coin, that was how far it got before SC finished his slash.

Ok so you're literally making shit up and lying now? Also fyi, depth exists, in the first panel, Chariot would literally be visible if he was waiting, the zoom out between panel 1 and panel 2 is minor, we're talking a depth change of mere inches, maybe less, merely slight percentage shifts, yet Chariot is like 4ft in front of the POV in the second panel. What's this mean? It means if Chariot was already there waiting, he'd literally be visible and on panel in the first panel, which he isnt. (Ignoring he only comes out after the first panel as evidenced by the summoning of him happening, well, afterwards?).

>He isn't going to explain the same thing over and over again, the situation is the exact same both tmes so it would be a waste of panels.

Has nothing to do with explaining it, it's the simple fact that isnt what ******* happened, both times even because even the first time happened after HM began moving.

>The number of trajectories would be irrelevant if he was faster, that scan prves he is not, in accordance to his dialogues saying he is not.

Ok so you really are incapable of reading, how many times does it need to be said that in JoJo, it is a clearly established and reoccuring thing that even if you are fast enough, if you do not know where the attack is coming from, you can not defend or counter it, because you simply do not know. This is said NUMEROUS TIMES. For one who's so desperately grasping at quotes, you're ignoring a metric ton of them. Hanged Man literally says himself that having a lot of trajectories can make things a issue, as well as the issue of harming innocents. Chariot proceeds to blitz him when he knows where he's going, said movement of Chariot explicitly and visually exceeds Hanged Man, both times really. Then toss another FTL+ feat he has later on. Wow look at that, Chariot>Hanged Man via concrete visual evidence that occurs multiple times.

Debating this with you is a literal waste of my time, you're literally making shit up now. If you're going to make shit up and lie about what's actually occurring then fine by me, honestly it's baffling how you cling to one statement contradicted multiple times but ignore everything else as if that one statement somehow superceeds everything else, spoiler alert, not how it worls.

 

[Huzy]

He is just following the flash of light as it reflects from the objects, that's why he outright says he can't keep up with that speed.

That's also why Kakyoin deduces it's light speed since it's a reflection, and not Polnareff saying "Ah, that is moving at LS"

There is a little spark every time Hanged Man hits something, in the panel which Polnareff turns his head, that isn't present and you can see that the head of the beam hasn't hit anything.

We don't see Chariot being deployed so it could be near the coin as it's logical for it to be.

And we don't see Chariot in the panel where Polnareff says now, was he invisible?

But the whole scan is unreliable in terms of distances and angles, the light itself is further from the coin in the next panel before even being cut.

If you could calc the distance vagrant-coin then you could calc the time light needs to reach the coint and that would be the time SC needs to make a cut.

SC didn't wait for HM to almost reach the coin, that was how far it got before SC finished his slash.

Even if you use the scan where Chariot cuts Hanged Man, the result still comes out to be MFTL.

That is unneeded as that's not what Silver Chariot did. Silver Chariot taking that much time to cut it is your headcanon because in every adaptation of the scene, Chariot moves after Hanged Man has already left the eye, reaches the coin before him and makes the cut when Polnareff says "Now!".

Again that's your headcanon and not how the scene is portrayed in any official JoJo media in existence, it also makes no sense for Polnareff to say "Now!" way out of sinc with Chariot.

 

[Huzy]

Also you do realize Polnareff himself not being able to react to Hanged Man is contradicted by him saying "Now!" before it makes it to the coin, right?

 

[Hasch]

There is a little spark every time Hanged Man hits something, in the panel which Polnareff turns his head, that isn't present and you can see that the head of the beam hasn't hit

In all of those panels Pol is looking at the spark in the object HM already touched.

And we don't see Chariot in the panel where Polnareff says now, was he invisible?

In that panel we shouldn't see it either way because the camera is too close to the coin.

Even if you use the scan where Chariot cuts Hanged Man, the result still comes out to be MFTL.

That is unneeded as that's not what Silver Chariot did. Silver Chariot taking that much time to cut it is your headcanon because in every adaptation of the scene, Chariot moves after Hanged Man has already left the eye, reaches the coin before him and makes the cut when Polnareff says "Now!".

Again that's your headcanon and not how the scene is portrayed in any official JoJo media in existence, it also makes no sense for Polnareff to say "Now!" way out of sinc with Chariot.

The only media that matters is the manga where Pol could have deployed SC at any point after kicking the sand, the vagrant closing his eyes is what promps the "now!" dialogue so SC should start his cut near that moment.

Has nothing to do with explaining it, it's the simple fact that isnt what ******* happened, both times even because even the first time happened after HM began moving.

It's the exact same ******* thing, SC needs to get ready and know where HM is going to go in order to time him with it's blade.

Unless you think SC became a hundred times faster for no reason.

Ok so you really are incapable of reading, how many times does it need to be said that in JoJo, it is a clearly established and reoccuring thing that even if you are fast enough, if you do not know where the attack is coming from, you can not defend or counter it, because you simply do not know. This is said NUMEROUS TIMES. For one who's so desperately grasping at quotes, you're ignoring a metric ton of them. Hanged Man literally says himself that having a lot of trajectories can make things a issue, as well as the issue of harming innocents. Chariot proceeds to blitz him when he knows where he's going, said movement of Chariot explicitly and visually exceeds Hanged Man, both times really. Then toss another FTL+ feat he has later on. Wow look at that, Chariot>Hanged Man via concrete visual evidence that occurs multiple times.

Debating this with you is a literal waste of my time, you're literally making shit up now. If you're going to make shit up and lie about what's actually occurring then fine by me, honestly it's baffling how you cling to one statement contradicted multiple times but ignore everything else as if that one statement somehow superceeds everything else, spoiler alert, not how it worls.

If they where faster it wouldn't matter, period.

You are triying to pick and choose the statements that suit you going against the story itself and logic.

 

[Hasch]

Also you do realize Polnareff himself not being able to react to Hanged Man is contradicted by him saying "Now!" before it makes it to the coin, right?

Yet it's suported by every explanation Polnareff gives about what he is doing and HM jumping around them repeatedly without them being ablo to see him and much less tag him.

 

[Damage3245]

Also you do realize Polnareff himself not being able to react to Hanged Man is contradicted by him saying "Now!" before it makes it to the coin, right?

Talking is a free action, no?

 

[Metalballrun]

>And? Crazy Diamond can deflect thousands of bullets at a time, but cant deflect even a single one if he doesnt know where it's coming.

It's not that strange, just because I can deflect a dodge ball doesn't mean I won't get hit by it when it comes from a place I didn't expect.
The profiles describe Chariot as MFTL, despite it having a difficult time with a LS Stand. That's only possible if the speed gap isn't ridiculously immense.
Now, if "You can't dodge something you can't see or you don't know where from in JJBA regardless of the speed gap" is really an established rule then I suppose that should be noted in their profiles as weaknesses or at least in their verse page.
The inconsistencies in statements and even feats are obvious.

>Polnareff noticing it is reason WHY he has fast perception, not that the beam is slow. The beam has a solid concrete stated speed. It moves at the speed of light. Polnareff can track and follow it's movements with his eyes, ie, he can percieve it. This contradicts the notion that he simply cant keep up with it at all in the slightest.

1. Nobody is saying Pol doesn't have fast perception. He has. Just that it's not necessary for him to have LS perception or, according to the profile, MFTL reactions speed.

2. Nobody is saying the beam itself is slow or isn't light speed either.

3. Like I said, it's not impossible to observe light. Seeing as it's a beam of light, Polnareff could've kept up with its movements. He could be very easily just following the flashes of light by Hanged Man.

But I digress, have it the way you like.

>How can one intercept something if they dont even know when and where it's going to come from?

By being massively faster than it? Silver Chariot is MFTL and is supposedly 365 times faster than light in his profile. That means that, in a hypothetical situation, assuming that Hanged Man can attack Polnareff in all directions from 5 meters away, it would take 1.66777852e-8 seconds for it to hit Polnareff. During that time, Silver Chariot can move in circles around the 1 meter radius from Polnareff several hundred times before Hanged Man even comes close to them. In fact, if allowed, Chariot can cover the entire 25 meter squared area around Polnareff in 2.2846281e-10 seconds, a lot faster than Hanged Man would take to travel towards Pol.
See how ridiculous that is? With just constant vigilance, it should be able to catch Hanged Man who would be moving in comparison to Chariot like a snail would move in comparison to a human. Especially since, at one point, we see Hanged Man move around Polnareff from a group of people. MFTL Chariot would be able to observe and cut it to a million pieces since its movements are slow af in comparison.

>And that's assuming the Hanged Man's laser lingers around, it kinda doesnt dude.

What do we make of the scans where it does, though?
I'll admit that in the anime, some of the scenes portray the beam to not be lingering for a significant amount of time, but in has always been portrayed as a beam in the manga.

>Again, never said that was MFTL. I'd appreciate it of you didnt skew my statements to imply I said something I haven't.

I never said you did, and I never did any of that. I get that you're arguing with multiple people (and has probably done this many times before), but you need to relax bud. This entire thread is addressing the speed in the profiles, not just about what you said.

>Yes, never said him tracking HM was MFTL, just that it disproves he couldnt follow him at all. Not just the anime, the manga and OVA as well.

I honestly just chalked up the manga scenes as Silver Chariot being out of panel, especially since it looked like it zoomed out to display Polnareff cutting it, which is supported by statements from Polnareff needing his sword to be "up and ready" to slash HM in its trajectory.
But since we're suggesting that Polnareff is wrong, eh, whatever then. Like I said, we can just put that it's PIS or Pol has 0 IQ.

>The justification is kinda blatant

The justification I'm talking about is a conclusive comparison about the dichotomy between the context of the story and the interpretation of the feat Chariot performed. Because the former definitely doesn't suggest that Silver Chariot is MFTL and otherwise implies that Hanged Man is too fast, and the latter suggests that he is based on how you describe what happened.
The justifications I garnered in this thread were:

1. It was about Hanged Man being small and unnoticeable, not because it was fast as said by a different user.
(Contradictory to the story and doesn't make any sense)
2. JJBA established a rule that you can't dodge or intercept something if you don't know where it comes from, even if you're 365x faster than it.
(This is stupid af and has never been mentioned by any of the characters AFAIK. This can also be explained that the characters simply aren't MFTL and they're actually closer to each other in speed, but I guess it can be accepted as long as it is listed as an official weakness in the profiles then?)
3. Polnareff's statements (and various other anti-feats) being PIS or outliers themselves (as outliers doesn't have to be high-end, it can also be low-end IMO).
(Sketchy as we seem to being very selective about which feat is PIS and which isn't).
4. Polnareff is an incompetent Stand user whose narrations is completely unreliable (and would probably extend to Araki as well for trying to portray Hanged Man as a fast Stand when it's actually shit). With this it should be noted that Stands despite their speed are always still limited by the intelligence and reaction speed of their user.
5. All of the above?

>we aren't calling the entire Hanged Man Arc PIS, only one specific instance that is contradicted four times by the characters in question

I mean, we have:

Polnareff saying "You could call it a Stand of light... because of its speed, my sword couldn't catch it. However, it's defenseless as it changes location." Here's an alternate scan.
And "With all that in mind, I was able to figure out its trajectory. Once I had my sword up and ready... slashing him... was very easy!"
MFTL Silver Chariot and MFTL reaction speeds (or LS reactions) Polnareff being unable to keep up with someone 365x slower than them. I explained why this is ridiculous above in an example.
MFTL Enya the Hag and her scissors.
MFTL Star Platinum (who scales to Silver Chariot) unable to punch away knives that are frozen in time within a second. If Star Platinum was MFTL, it could've read all the magazines Jotaro put on his body and still have ample of time to parry the knives away and give Jotaro a full-body massage.
Since Joseph is MFTL reactions since he blocked a sword slash from MFTL Silver Chariot, along with the MFTL Kars blocking LS ray, which means German Engineering is MFTL and MFTL reactions Nazi, MFTL German Engineering Plane Crash, and MFTL Volcanic Explosion, MFTL severed flying hand, and MFTL volcanic debris.

Among other things.

But anyways, this'll be my last reply. Just wanted to state my thoughts on this. I would be fine with whatever consensus would be reached by the majority (or however things are decided in here).

 

[Damage3245]

@Metalballrun; that is an excellent breakdown. I'm in agreement with you.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

@Chariot190

My God dude, Brevity is the soul of wit.

Make your arguments more concise, nobody wants to read through continuous walls of text.

​

 

[Chariot190]

>In all of those panels Pol is looking at the spark in the object HM already touched.

Not actually true, hell Huzy just pointed a discrepancy out, also, again, every single adaption of the scene portray it the same way, he follows the beam as well. Or are you going to ignore consistent portrayals across all media that coincide with the source material because it doesnt fit your argument and contradicts your notion>

>In that panel we shouldn't see it either way because the camera is too close to the coin.

Do you lack basic human depth perception? The difference in depth between the two panels is literally inches, hell, it may be centimeters. Simply angsize the distance between the POV between the coin or the man, take your pick, in both panels, both end with the difference between panel 1 and panel 2 being literally next to nothing. If Chariot cant be seen in Panel 1, it's because he literally isnt there, if he was, he'd be seen, in full view mind you.

>The only media that matters is the manga where Pol could have deployed SC at any point after kicking the sand, the vagrant closing his eyes is what promps the "now!" dialogue so SC should start his cut near that moment.

Are you actually blind? The panel where he says it has the beam of light almost at the coin. The panel where he kicks the sand into his eyes has no ******* dialogue. Again, this is bordering on straight up lying, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're misremembering or confusing it but still. Also, lo and behold, the anime adapations have him say Now! when he's almost at the coin too, just like the manga, shocker.

>It's the exact same ******* thing, SC needs to get ready and know where HM is going to go in order to time him with it's blade. Unless you think SC became a hundred times faster for no reason.

Except it isnt. Go out and try reacting to punch a bullet out of the air after it's fired and only like a inch away from hitting you. It doesnt matter what you do, if you arent faster then the bullet, youre getting hit when its that close. Chariot doesnt need to do shit, Pol? Maybe. But Chariot? Not a damn thing. If you throw a full punch in the span it takes a bullet to cross 1cm, your punch is much faster than the bullet, as the distance your punch crossed is far above the distance the bullet croosed. Same thing applies here, its basic math. Though, in this case instead of a punch, its coming out, covering a distance, then swing your blade all in a small timespan of a beam of light crossing a minuscule distance. i dont think Chariot became faster for no reason, because Chariot was always that fast, he was shown capable of being faster before that scene, he was shown capable of being faster in that scene, and he's shown capable of being faster after that scene, ergo, he's literally just faster. Pol though? Eh, maybe, maybe not. The Stand itself though tells Hanged Man to **** off and eat shit, maybe fall off his horse.

>If they where faster it wouldn't matter, period.

It actually would, because that's what's been established. To the point its even said "It doesn't matter how fast ____ is! If he doesn't know where I'm going to attack from, he can't defend against it!", like this aint even a one off thing, it's constant. JoJo characters can be a fuckton faster than something, but if they dont know how where something is coming and going, well, it aint exactly easy anymore.

>You are triying to pick and choose the statements that suit you going against the story itself and logic.

Hypocritical much? I'm not picking and choosing statements, what I'm doing is taking explicit visual evidence and concrete undeniable feats and showings that happen in a explicit way to gauge that one line of dialogue is likely full of shit, coupled with supporting statements as well. It's not me who's ignoring things, I'm well aware the statement exists, but it doesnt supersede 3 concrete FTL feats by said character, FTL scaling off characters who have their own FTL feats and so on and so forth. And story? It's also part of the story that Chariot intercepted him and nearly sliced him in half. And logic? All of your logic is literally things you made up that arent even true.

 

[Chariot190]

@Chariot190

My God dude, Brevity is the soul of wit.

Make your arguments more concise, nobody wants to read through continuous walls of text.

​

It's 4am, dont know what you expect from me.

 

[Huzy]

In all of those panels Pol is looking at the spark in the object HM already touched.

Now that's just you blatantly lying, in the panel where Polnareff says "Hmm?" the spark is nowhere to be found and the beam isn't hitting anything. By the time his head fully turns around, the beam hits the bumper just like the anime adaptation which has this scene 1:1 with the manga.

In that panel we shouldn't see it either way because the camera is too close to the coin.

Even if that was the case, which it doesn't seem like, it doesn't explain why Chariot is nowhere to be found when we're shown a shot of the coin before the feat happens.

The only media that matters is the manga where Pol could have deployed SC at any point after kicking the sand, the vagrant closing his eyes is what promps the "now!" dialogue so SC should start his cut near that moment.

Could have doesn't mean he did, again, official adaptations show that Chariot started moving after the beam did. Yes, the "Now!" dialogue is clearly for Silver Chariot to start the cut and the dialogue happens when the beam was already close to the coin.

 

[Hasch]

Now that's just you blatantly lying, in the panel where Polnareff says "Hmm?" the spark is nowhere to be found and the beam isn't hitting anything. By the time his head fully turns around, the beam hits the bumper just like the anime adaptation which has this scene 1:1 with the manga.

In that panel it's hitting a piece of metal in the sand.

Even if that was the case, which it doesn't seem like, it doesn't explain why Chariot is nowhere to be found when we're shown a shot of the coin before the feat happens.

I'm talking about that exact panel, the coin is much closer to our POV, in the next panel there's a zoom out and we see Chariot finishing his slash.

Why would Polnareff wait for HM to almost reach the coin before doing anything? How does that make sense with the fact he said he can't follow HM speed?

Could have doesn't mean he did, again, official adaptations show that Chariot started moving after the beam did. Yes, the "Now!" dialogue is clearly for Silver Chariot to start the cut and the dialogue happens when the beam was already close to the coin.

Could have means he could have, so if that fits with the context he gives trough his dialogues then it should be the preferred interpretation.

The anime depict a different thing by having SC fly faster than the HM and positioning himself between the HM and the coin, the manga just shows SC cutting HM from the side, it never raced and intercepted the laser with it's whole body.

It actually would, because that's what's been established. To the point its even said "It doesn't matter how fast ____ is! If he doesn't know where I'm going to attack from, he can't defend against it!", like this aint even a one off thing, it's constant. JoJo characters can be a fuckton faster than something, but if they dont know how where something is coming and going, well, it aint exactly easy anymore.

Then they aren't much faster because this doesn't make any sense otherwise, can you imagine yourself being blitzed by a turtle that it's moving inside your field of view?

Because HM was basically runing circles around Pol despite sposedly being over 100 times slower.

Hypocritical much? I'm not picking and choosing statements, what I'm doing is taking explicit visual evidence and concrete undeniable feats and showings that happen in a explicit way to gauge that one line of dialogue is likely full of shit, coupled with supporting statements as well. It's not me who's ignoring things, I'm well aware the statement exists, but it doesnt supersede 3 concrete FTL feats by said character, FTL scaling off characters who have their own FTL feats and so on and so forth. And story? It's also part of the story that Chariot intercepted him and nearly sliced him in half. And logic? All of your logic is literally things you made up that arent even true.

But the only reason this feats are "MFTL" is because of assumptions not present in the source material, and it's not just "one line of dialogue" is an extremely important line that sets the context and dynamics of the fight.

It's Araki telling the reader why HM is dangerous and why the characters are desperately trying to reduce the places it can move towards.

The explicit visual evidence are static pictures with faulty scale and depth that don't necesarily contradict such statements either.

 

[Chariot190]

>It's not that strange, just because I can deflect a dodge ball doesn't mean I won't get hit by it when it comes from a place I didn't expect.

>The profiles describe Chariot as MFTL, despite it having a difficult time with a LS Stand. That's only possible if the speed gap isn't ridiculously immense. Now, if "You can't dodge something you can't see or you don't know where from in JJBA regardless of the speed gap" is really an established rule then I suppose that should be noted in their profiles as weaknesses or at least in their verse page.

Except Chariot didnt have a issue tagging the lightspeed Stand, in every single instance he does so just fine, it was moreso Pol who had an issue. In fact, as obviously shown, he outright blitzes it. It is established, kinda excessively so. i dont really agree with it but it happens far to many times to ignore, with it even being stated that's the reason behind it. Sure why not, it should be noted, especially in Josuke's case because it happens a lot with his ass.

>The inconsistencies in statements and even feats are obvious.

>Polnareff noticing it is reason WHY he has fast perception, not that the beam is slow. The beam has a solid concrete stated speed. It moves at the speed of light. Polnareff can track and follow it's movements with his eyes, ie, he can percieve it. This contradicts the notion that he simply cant keep up with it at all in the slightest.


>1. Nobody is saying Pol doesn't have fast perception. He has. Just that it's not necessary for him to have LS perception or, according to the profile, MFTL reactions speed.

Already said Pol not being MFTL, while unfortunate, is something I can accept. Just not the Stand who's consistently shown to be far above that speed.

>2. Nobody is saying the beam itself is slow or isn't light speed either.

No, but when arguments like it behaves like a laser pointer are made, it effectively results in the same thing given how Hanged Man functions.

>Like I said, it's not impossible to observe light. Seeing as it's a beam of light, Polnareff could've kept up with its movements. He could be very easily just following the flashes of light by Hanged Man.

Except, it's shown he's following the beam as well, not just the glints.

>How can one intercept something if they dont even know when and where it's going to come from?

>By being massively faster than it? Silver Chariot is MFTL and is supposedly 365 times faster than light in his profile. That means that, in a hypothetical situation, assuming that Hanged Man can attack Polnareff in all directions from 5 meters away, it would take 1.66777852e-8 seconds for it to hit Polnareff. During that time, Silver Chariot can move in circles around the 1 meter radius from Polnareff several hundred times before Hanged Man even comes close to them. In fact, if allowed, Chariot can cover the entire 25 meter squared area around Polnareff in 2.2846281e-10 seconds, a lot faster than Hanged Man would take to travel towards Pol.

Yeah sure, if Chariot's that fast, then he's that fast, he's explicitly shown to be that fast in comparison to the Hanged Man, it's literally what we see happen. See, an issue with this argument is that it would only work if Chariot's feats came solely from elsewhere, but that isnt the case, two such feats are done against the Hanged Man himself. Saying Chariot cant be that fast against the Hanged Man literally doesnt work, because the reason he is that fast against him is because, well, he literally was, he blitzed him numerous times over. Also Chariot's range is shit tier, he cant really do what youre proposing, of course, im aware it's just an example, but still pointing that out. But yes, Chariot is hundreds of times faster than Hanged Man, he has feats of being literally shown that fast in comparison to him so this argument doesnt work because there isnt even a need for a hypothetical situation, there actually is one, add onto that Chariot basically deflecting four Hanged Mans at the same time later on as support.

>See how ridiculous that is? With just constant vigilance, it should be able to catch Hanged Man who would be moving in comparison to Chariot like a snail would move in comparison to a human. Especially since, at one point, we see Hanged Man move around Polnareff from a group of people. MFTL Chariot would be able to observe and cut it to a million pieces since its movements are slow af in comparison.

I dont see a single issue with it honestly. Youre confusing Polnareff with Chariot, which is worse than it sounds as they're two examples of being notable in that they dont have shared senses and, the fact we literally see Chariot be hundreds of times faster than it, kinda proves that it is, of course, backed by other feats as well. Actually, it's outright stated in that instance that not knowing the trajectory is a issue and couple that with the crowded space and people huddling around Pol, Chariot would have ended up harming or killing innocents. In that instance, it was borderline a hostage situation. Speed is indeed stated to be a issue, I'm not going to deny that, but so where other factors. Though, again, it being stated doesnt matter, this whole topic of debate is about if it is or isnt usable as a counterpoint. It's heavily contradicted and shown false so, like anything else, it doesnt invalidate the multiple feats. Kinda how the wiki works as a whole really.

>What do we make of the scans where it does, though?

>I'll admit that in the anime, some of the scenes portray the beam to not be lingering for a significant amount of time, but in has always been portrayed as a beam in the manga.

Because it literally doesnt? The narrator explanation explains how it works and so does, well, he himself. He's literally the laser, the laser kinda physically cant linger around because he IS it, and if he reaches a object, the laser is gone because, well, he's it, and has reached his destination. I'm glad you point that out, in the anime it shows you going from one surface to another, one at a time. which leads me to believe, the manga is meant to convey motion, kinda like how that infamous 3 D4C panel is a thing or multiple Star Platinums. Though, there's also the fact it's kinda outright say he moves from one surface to another.

>I never said you did, and I never did any of that. I get that you're arguing with multiple people (and has probably done this many times before), but you need to relax bud. This entire thread is addressing the speed in the profiles, not just about what you said.

Fair.

>I honestly just chalked up the manga scenes as Silver Chariot being out of panel, especially since it looked like it zoomed out to display Polnareff cutting it, which is supported by statements from Polnareff needing his sword to be "up and ready" to slash HM in its trajectory.

That's impossible though, the zoom out is negligible (though reminder, this was drawn back in early 90s, the zoom out is so negligible it's likely just because of having to redraw the same panel by hand, leading to minor discrepancies), it's by literally just a few inches. And in said second panel, Chariot is several feet in front of the POV. If Chariot was there already, he'd be seen in both. It's impossible to say this isnt the case. If what youre insinuating is true, we'd have seen him, in full view mind you. That's actually only stated the first time, which doesnt actually change anything because no matter how it's interpreted, the slash only happened after HM was near the coin. No more, no less. And the calc only takes account the swing so it, well, doesnt actually change anything.



>But since we're suggesting that Polnareff is wrong, eh, whatever then. Like I said, we can just put that it's PIS or Pol has 0 IQ.

No different than DBZ and the whole lightspeed Dyspo fiasco. It's just PIS, contradicted multiple times over. Or, worse case scenario, it's just Pol being slow, not Chariot.

>The justification I'm talking about is a conclusive comparison about the dichotomy between the context of the story and the interpretation of the feat Chariot performed. Because the former definitely doesn't suggest that Silver Chariot is MFTL and otherwise implies that Hanged Man is too fast, and the latter suggests that he is based on how you describe what happened.

Again, there is no interpretation of the feat, the feat itself is conclusive and straightforward, an interpretation implies vagueness or a possibility of it happening differently, which simply isnt the case. The feat is MFTL, that much is fact. The context of the story effecting a character's normal consistent portrayal is literally why PIS exists. Like it or not, this is a prime example of it. A character, Chariot, has multiple feats and showings that would normally confirm a FTL+/MFTL rating with zero issue. A story arc occurs though, a line in said arc states that lightspeed is troubling, but, as shown, Chariot in reality is normally fast enough to where this actually isnt an issue, even within that same arc. As such, the statement that implies a lower rating is rendered obsolete, as it's not only contradicted in that same arc, but also contradicted in later arcs as well, such as The Sun, proving that Chariot is consistently at a level above the Hanged Man by a large degree.

.1. It was about Hanged Man being small and unnoticeable, not because it was fast as said by a different user. (Contradictory to the story and doesn't make any sense)

It makes a bit of sense, but I agree that really isnt why at all. Though, are you really speaking of contradictions? This whole argument is based upon if a statement is contradicted or not.

>2. JJBA established a rule that you can't dodge or intercept something if you don't know where it comes from, even if you're 365x faster than it. (This is stupid af and has never been mentioned by any of the characters AFAIK. This can also be explained that the characters simply aren't MFTL and they're actually closer to each other in speed, but I guess it can be accepted as long as it is listed as an official weakness in the profiles then?)

I mean, yeah, kinda, Crazy Diamond literally blocks thousands of attacks of the same speed, but failed because a few came from his blindspot so he didnt know to react or counter because he didnt know about it. Happens a few times, and yes, hundreds of times, if the dude can deflect hundreds of that attack at the same time but failed because one was coming and didnt know where, well, literally hit by a attack he's hundreds to thousands of times faster then. Also that is actually said, literally so. Or, characters are MFTL (not all mind you, but some, hell, off the top of my head only like 7 Stands maybe?), doesnt really apply either when some Stands can blitz the shit out of other Stands but fail otherwise in special circumstances. It's a thing, oh well. Add a note to the profiles, that's fine.

>3. Polnareff's statements (and various other anti-feats) being PIS or outliers themselves (as outliers doesn't have to be high-end, it can also be low-end IMO (Sketchy as we seem to being very selective about which feat is PIS and which isn't).

Probably the singular statement that's shown to be false by the actual feats of the Stand? this isnt even being picky, it isnt like Chariot's insane speeds are restricted to just this arc, he has one again later on. It's pretty obvious which thing is sus here, and it aint the multiple feats.

>4. Polnareff is an incompetent Stand user whose narrations is completely unreliable (and would probably extend to Araki as well for trying to portray Hanged Man as a fast Stand when it's actually shit). With this it should be noted that Stands despite their speed are always still limited by the intelligence and reaction speed of their user.

Or it's simply just PIS. Nobody said Hanged Man was shit, dont strawman, its just shit compared to Chariot and other God and Top Tier Stands, there's more than just a few Stands he's way faster than, and by a few I mean like literally a hundred. Uh, yeah? Stands ARE limited by the intelligence and reaction speeds of their user in most cases unless the Stand is sentient, has shared senses, has self preservation and a few other things. Like if a human speed stand user had a MFTL+ Stand that wasnt sentient or automatic, the Stand wouldnt really do anything unless summoned and given a command. Also JoJo is about using your intelligence to outsmart the other dude's Stand. You're acting like because Polnareff said a contradictory quote it must mean he's stupid, it could just, in reality, be a quote that was contradicted and thus doesnt amount to much. You're confusing PIS with CIS.
5. All of the above?

>I mean, we have:

>Polnareff saying "You could call it a Stand of light... because of its speed, my sword couldn't catch it. However, it's defenseless as it changes location." Here's an alternate scan. And "With all that in mind, I was able to figure out its trajectory. Once I had my sword up and ready... slashing him... was very easy!"

Yes, congratulations, that would be the line that's contradictory and shown to be false within that very arc.

>MFTL Silver Chariot and MFTL reaction speeds (or LS reactions) Polnareff being unable to keep up with someone 365x slower than them. I explained why this is ridiculous above in an example.

And I explained above why it isnt.

>MFTL Enya the Hag and her scissors.

Uh, what?

>MFTL Star Platinum (who scales to Silver Chariot) unable to punch away knives that are frozen in time within a second. If Star Platinum was MFTL, it could've read all the magazines Jotaro put on his body and still have ample of time to parry the knives away and give Jotaro a full-body massage.

You're joking right? You do realize those knives are thrown by a superhuman character at insane speeds right? That's not an anti-feat, it's not anything, it's literally an unquantifiable feat.

>Since Joseph is MFTL reactions since he blocked a sword slash from MFTL Silver Chariot, along with the MFTL Kars blocking LS ray, which means German Engineering is MFTL and MFTL reactions Nazi, MFTL German Engineering Plane Crash, and MFTL Volcanic Explosion, MFTL severed flying hand, and MFTL volcanic debris.

Yes, Joseph is FTL+ to MFTL. Stroheim is that fast as well, he's meant to be above Santana, he's superhuman and superfast, and fights Kars, who can react to lasers up close. I'm not even gonna bother touching up the plane example, I really shouldn't have to explain that one. As for the eruption, Kars actually did react, everyone did actually, Kars even seemingly reacts to the Aja laser when it's fired. And the flying hand and debris? You kinda left out a huge important statement there (well you didnt leave it out, but you sure as hell didnt mention it).
"The lapse in concentration caused by the sudden appearance of Jojo's cut arm sealed Kars' fate! He was launched even further by the white-hot fragments he could have dodged otherwise"
It literally says he was only hit because he was distracted by the arm and also dealing with Joseph's bullshit.

>Among other things.

Same.

>But anyways, this'll be my last reply. Just wanted to state my thoughts on this. I would be fine with whatever consensus would be reached by the majority (or however things are decided in here).

I dont think you or anyone realize this but I'm not saying keep everyone MFTL, ****, in regards to Stands literally less then ten that I can think of would retain the rating, and Part 4? **** Part 4 in particular I guess, that seems to be the running theme as of late. Hell, I aint even saying Pol is MFTL, literally just his Stand because he's consistently at that level. I'm pretty sure I clarified this numerous times, yet half the arguments still revolve around things like Pol being MFTL or other such things.

 

[Slacjow]

Honestly, only in VSB people can argue for a guy to be 360 times faster than something he himself stated to be slower than.
Let's completely ignore character's own statements and the whole context which heavily implies that he is slower.
I agree with the downgrade on the Hanged Man part.

 

[Huzy]

In that panel it's hitting a piece of metal in the sand.

Not what I'm referring to. Here's a circle around the beam to help you see.

I'm talking about that exact panel, the coin is much closer to our POV, in the next panel there's a zoom out and we see Chariot finishing his slash.

Why would Polnareff wait for HM to almost reach the coin before doing anything? How does that make sense with the fact he said he can't follow HM speed?

Finishing? So according to you, he'd already started it? Ok so where is the sword in the panel before he cuts HM? The beam is completely visible, no matter the zoom in Chariot's sword should be present unless you're telling me that Hanged Man could travel well over half a meter and Silver Chariot wasn't even fast enough to get his sword even around the beam but suddenly gains a burst of speed and does the complete slash just as Polnareff says "Now!". Which still ends up being MFTL.

Because his Stand is much faster and reached the coin before the beam itself. Him having trouble doesn't mean his Stand will have trouble. And even if we assume Silver Chariot was there before hand, the slash itself is MFTL.

Could have means he could have, so if that fits with the context he gives trough his dialogues then it should be the preferred interpretation.

The anime depict a different thing by having SC fly faster than the HM and positioning himself between the HM and the coin, the manga just shows SC cutting HM from the side, it never raced and intercepted the laser with it's whole body.

When Silver Chariot was summoned doesn't matter, but it was after the beam moved because we don't see Silver Chariot in any of the panels after Kakyoin throws up the coin.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but him reaching the coin before Hanged Man or not is literally irrelevant as that isn't what's calced in the first place. The slash which begins after Polnareff says "Now!" (when the beam has almost reached the coin) in every source imaginable is MFTL no matter how you look at it.

 

[Chariot190]

>In that panel it's hitting a piece of metal in the sand.

That's not even true, also dont just ignore every adaption showing it to happen a certain way that does literally nothing but confirm whats actually transpiring in the source material.

>I'm talking about that exact panel, the coin is much closer to our POV, in the next panel there's a zoom out and we see Chariot finishing his slash.

Again, dont know why you ignored it, it isnt much closer, the difference is so minor that in either panel, Chariot would still be in full view. I can even post some angsizing right now if needed to prove this claim.

>Why would Polnareff wait for HM to almost reach the coin before doing anything? How does that make sense with the fact he said he can't follow HM speed?

Because he does, and yeah sure, it doesnt make sense, which is the whole point, the feats outright make that statement nonsensical.

>Could have means he could have, so if that fits with the context he gives trough his dialogues then it should be the preferred interpretation.

Could have means he could have, but only when it isnt literally shown to not be what happened. We arent arguing vague subjective feats dude. Like, we literally see this happen, what you're insinuating literally doesnt occur. You say it fits with his dialogue, but in the same vain, I can say it doesnt fit with his feats. Like it or not, at the end of the day, the event happens in a certain way, and this way isnt what youre implying. Also, you're ignoring his dialogue right now, if you want to cling to his statements as gospel, you're ignoring Pol explicitly says Now! after he's almsot at the coin, not before. This is also consistent between adaptions.

>The anime depict a different thing by having SC fly faster than the HM and positioning himself between the HM and the coin, the manga just shows SC cutting HM from the side, it never raced and intercepted the laser with it's whole body.

It literally did, also You're focused on the anime but it isnt JUST the anime, it's everything, every single adaption, has the scene play out basically the same way each time. And, for one complaining about pov and depth so much, if anything, you're basically forcing us to use the anime, if the original is so unusable according to you (It isnt, but for the sake of argument), we'd use the anime as it's seemingly more consistent with its scaling, art and angles. Also, you're focusing on the angle, but ignoring the seuqence of events is identical between all.


>Then they aren't much faster because this doesn't make any sense otherwise, can you imagine yourself being blitzed by a turtle that it's moving inside your field of view?

Literally shown to be faster, multiple times. Also funny that, over half the trajectories were outside his field of view.

>Because HM was basically runing circles around Pol despite sposedly being over 100 times slower.

Yep, to many trajectories, to many people close to him he wouldve hurt, statement is outright contradicted. And when Chariot actually went to attack, lo and behold he's running circles around him comparatively (Ignoring his small range).

>But the only reason this feats are "MFTL" is because of assumptions not present in the source material, and it's not just "one line of dialogue" is an extremely important line that sets the context and dynamics of the fight.

They arent assumptions, I'm honestly trying to figure out some of the shit youre saying because theyre outright false. This isnt like a novel using a bunch of flowery language, it's something we outright see. The fact it's consistently the same acroos all media is just a nice bonus, but it isnt needed, all it does is prove your claims wrong in regards to what happened. And yes, it's one line of dialogue, but, said line is contradicted and proven false. And not even one time, it's proven false MULTIPLE TIMES, and not even just that arc, he's shown that fast later on too, after the statement in a following arc, which kinda proves the line was just for in the moment. Plus **** bro, dont tell Dragon Ball about this, Im sure downgrading everyone pre UI to Rel+ is legit too based on some statements that got contradicted.

>It's Araki telling the reader why HM is dangerous and why the characters are desperately trying to reduce the places it can move towards.

Yes, for multiple reasons.

>The explicit visual evidence are static pictures with faulty scale and depth that don't necesarily contradict such statements either.

Ok so I guess manga cant be used because theyre faulty. Let's just switch over every manga on the wiki over to the anime because they arent static images. I seriously hope you arent serious here. The static images happen in a sequence with visual information that tells us the sequence of actions that were partook by the cast within the panel. Faulty scale is something you made up, scaling it is piss easy. Hell, the calc in question doesnt even touch the things you have issue with, the only thing being calced is his arm swing. Which happens after a certain point no matter how you slice it. They contradict it explicitly, if they didnt, we wouldnt even be having this conversation.

 

[Chariot190]

Honestly, only in VSB people can argue for a guy to be 360 times faster than something he himself stated to be slower than.
Let's completely ignore character's own statements and the whole context which heavily implies that he is slower.
I agree with the downgrade on the Hanged Man part.

When he's shown consistently faster than it? Feats>statements. Yeah. Also, again, I honestly feel like im getting punked at this point.

Pol=/=Chariot. How hard of a concept is this to grasp.

 

[Damage3245]

> Feats>statements

It's honestly more like:

Statements + Interpretation of feats vs. Other interpretation of feats.

Of the two intepretations of Polnareff's feats, one of them has story backing and statements from the characters themselves.

 

[Slacjow]

When he's shown consistently faster than it? Feats>statements.

No, its how fast Polnareff is intended to be by the author of the manga, not how fast you want him to be.
The author already made it clear that Polnareff is inferior to Hanged Man.

 

[Hasch]

Not what I'm referring to. Here's a circle around the beam to help you see.

But there Pol is looking at the thing in the ground, he only looks the part you highlighted in the next scan when HM is already there.

Finishing? So according to you, he'd already started it? Ok so where is the sword in the panel before he cuts HM? The beam is completely visible, no matter the zoom in Chariot's sword should be present unless you're telling me that Hanged Man could travel well over half a meter and Silver Chariot wasn't even fast enough to get his sword even around the beam but suddenly gains a burst of speed and does the complete slash just as Polnareff says "Now!". Which still ends up being MFTL.

Because his Stand is much faster and reached the coin before the beam itself. Him having trouble doesn't mean his Stand will have trouble. And even if we assume Silver Chariot was there before hand, the slash itself is MFTL.

You can't see SC because it's a close up on the coin, then it zooms out and SC already slashed HM.

It means the blade of SC intercepted HM near the coin, nothing more can be stated based on that scan, meaning SC moved around 1m in the time HM moved from the eye to near the coin

It does not mean Polnareff waited for HM to almost reach the coin and only then launched Silver chariot that slashed HM as it was moving 300 times slower than his blade

Ok so I guess manga cant be used because theyre faulty. Let's just switch over every manga on the wiki over to the anime because they arent static images. I seriously hope you arent serious here. The static images happen in a sequence with visual information that tells us the sequence of actions that were partook by the cast within the panel. Faulty scale is something you made up, scaling it is piss easy. Hell, the calc in question doesnt even touch the things you have issue with, the only thing being calced is his arm swing. Which happens after a certain point no matter how you slice it. They contradict it explicitly, if they didnt, we wouldnt even be having this conversation.

Ok then tell me why you are certain Pol says "now!" right before the HM reaches the coin and not when it leaves the eye of the vagrant, when all of this happens in the same panel?

The idea that Pol just waits for the 300 times slower character to almost turn the tables on them (because if it reach the coin in can escape to any of the other vagrant's eyes) before even releasing his stand makes no sense and is based on your anime based interpretation of the scene that you admited makes no sense in story.

I think Araki just didn't illustrate the sequence of events in a clear enough way but gave ample exposition for context.

 

[Chariot190]

Three.

He blitzes the Hanged Man, don't even attempt to argue this. There's interpreting a feat, and then outright lying about it.
Chariot comes out and slashes the Hanged Man right before he reaches the coin, this is shown on panel plain as day, it's even shown when it wouldve happened by Polnareff's own exclamation of when to attack. It's outright shown to happen that way in every single adaption as well as evidence.

Then we have Chariot tagging him after he moves earlier on to. Statements or not, tagging a light speed dude with a 180 degree slash with a distance of like 1m is still evidently above the thing in question if said slash happens after it moves with nowhere near enough distance for aim striking to actually be feasible.

Then later on we have The Sun feat which outright supports Chariot's speed being vastly above the Hanged Man because, even if you ignore the fact he outright blitzes him, he basically casually deflects hour hanged men at the same time, this, of course happens in a different arc and after the feat. The mere existence of this feat implies the statement is in the wrong, not the feats.

the only thing that's even slightly bound to interpretation is Pol following the lightbeam early on, but its' kinda clear in the adaptations that he's not just following the glint but rather the beam as well. Same goes for the other feats, the adaptions all consistently portray it in the same way, so there really shouldnt be any confusion.

Damage, there is no interpretation, the feat is MFTL with supporting FTL and FTL+ backing, The issue isnt how the feat can be interpreted, its if the statement invalidates the feats. And no, it doesnt, if multiple feats contradict it then the notion of Chariot being slower than Hanged Man is wrong, he's consistently shown to be faster, simple as that. Which is how we treat these things, it isnt like Chariot has a single feat that contradicts, he has multiple. As said, basically the same argument as trying to use Dyspo to downgrade DBZ, it's wrong, feats and showings contradict it, even if the characters themselves say otherwise. Though mind you, again, for the 8th time. Not saying Pol is MFTL, just his Stand.

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here? It seems like the staff uniformly agree with the downgrade suggested in the first post, but one member keeps posting walls of text in opposition.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I dont think it needs that much discussion.

it's absolutely ridiculous that a MFTL character is having any trouble with a SOL character in the first place.

If SC truly was MFTL Hangman wouldnt even be a threat, the speed difference would make hangman look like he was moving in a pool of Malasses In comparsion.

which means there's only two Options.

Hangman isnt only SOL or SC isnt MFTL

 

[Chariot190]

So what should we do here? It seems like the staff uniformly agree with the downgrade suggested in the first post, but one member keeps posting walls of text in opposition.

One other member? It aint just me. And mind you, like a dozen people agreed with my posts. Just because I'm one of two actually debating it doesnt mean I'm the only one in opposition.

>You can't see SC because it's a close up on the coin, then it zooms out and SC already slashed HM.

You realize it only zoomed out on the coin by a grand total of 6cm right? As said, angsizing exists. We can figure out big the zoom was. And if a 60cm zoom is enough to have Chariot in full view, he'd still be in full view in both.

>It means the blade of SC intercepted HM near the coin, nothing more can be stated based on that scan, meaning SC moved around 1m in the time HM moved from the eye to near the coin.

Yes, chariot's blade intercepted Hanged Man before he reached the coin despite being close to it. That's literally all the calc is, the movement to get there isnt even apart of the calc.

>It does not mean Polnareff waited for HM to almost reach the coin and only then launched Silver chariot that slashed HM as it was moving 300 times slower than his blade

It does because Chariot wasnt there yet and Polnareff exclaims when he begins his attack, which, as usual, is portrayed the same across all media. And, again, doesnt matter, the calc is only the slash itself, nothing else. The slash has a confirmed timeframe, he doesnt not slash till Polnareff exclaims.

>Ok then tell me why you are certain Pol says "now!" right before the HM reaches the coin and not when it leaves the eye of the vagrant, when all of this happens in the same panel?

Because it didnt happen in the same panel? You know there's three panels of the dude right? Pol kicks the sand into his eyes. Next panel is him closing his eyes. The following panel is the Hanged Man being super close to the coin and Pol saying "Now!", final panel is Chariot slashing him before he could finish crossing that distance. This is straightforward and shown to be how it happened in all media. The issue with this point is, it doesnt happen in the same panel.

>The idea that Pol just waits for the 300 times slower character to almost turn the tables on them (because if it reach the coin in can escape to any of the other vagrant's eyes) before even releasing his stand makes no sense and is based on your anime based interpretation of the scene that you admited makes no sense in story.

Again, why the **** is it so difficult to comprehend Chariot=/=Pol. But, it doesnt matter, the feat speaks for itself, and not just that single feat. It doesnt make sense? Maybe, but neither does a line about him being slower than the character he proceeds to blitz and then pull off feats later on that prove he's far faster. Except, again, the anime isnt even needed, it happens the same way as the manga, the anime adaptions are literally just there to prove your claims are wrong and as evidence of how the feat actually occurred, though honestly, the fact theyre even needed is kinda ludicrous, the feat itself is extremely straightforward. Bro, PIS exists. Statements can be wrong if contradicted, you realize that? Again, see Dyspo or literally 90% of Pokedex entries on how statements can be full of shit if proven false by feats.

>I think Araki just didn't illustrate the sequence of events in a clear enough way but gave ample exposition for context.

Dude it couldnt get any more blatant. The OVA did it right, that's how obvious it is. The paneling of the events is blatant as well, the only reason you think it isnt is because there's no panel showing something like Chariot hovering there, but of course there isnt, because he never was. Youre asking for something to there that never happened.

 

[Chariot190]

I dont think it needs that much discussion.

it's absolutely ridiculous that a MFTL character is having any trouble with a SOL character in the first place.

If SC truly was MFTL Hangman wouldnt even be a threat, the speed difference would make hangman look like he was moving in a pool of Malasses In comparsion.

which means there's only two Options.

Hangman isnt only SOL or SC isnt MFTL

Or, the Stand is MFTL and showcases that when he tags said SOL with ease? And then later pulls other FTL+ feats out of nowhere to support this, as well as scaling to characters who are already FTL+?

Again, attacks out of the unknown are an actual issue to jojo characters even if youre hundreds of times faster, Crazy Diamond is a prime example.

Or, the statement is PIS? And is proven as such when the Stand proceeds to blitz him anyway? And has scaling and other FTL+ feats under his belt?

And as said, I'm unsure why everyone keeps ignoring this, but it wasnt the Stand that had the issue, it was the user.

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente @TISSG7Redgrave @The_real_cal_howard @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Promestein @SomebodyData @JustSomeWeirdo @Dargoo_Faust @DemonGodMitchAubin @Qliphoth_Bacikal @Starter_Pack @Crabwhale @Sir_Ovens @Mr._Bambu @Antoniofer

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

> Or, the Stand is MFTL and showcases that when he tags said SOL with ease? And then later pulls other FTL+ feats out of nowhere to support this, as well as scaling to characters who are already FTL+?

a MFTL stand shouldnt be simply tagging an SOL character, he should be outright blitzing. it's in the name, massively faster than light.

 

[Huzy]

But there Pol is looking at the thing in the ground, he only looks the part you highlighted in the next scan when HM is already there.

Do you not see the semi circular lines around his head indicating that's he's moving his head as the beam is travelling? And no the spark isn't there and the head of the beam is fully formed unlike the rest of the scans where it's hitting something.

You can't see SC because it's a close up on the coin, then it zooms out and SC already slashed HM.

It means the blade of SC intercepted HM near the coin, nothing more can be stated based on that scan, meaning SC moved around 1m in the time HM moved from the eye to near the coin

It does not mean Polnareff waited for HM to almost reach the coin and only then launched Silver chariot that slashed HM as it was moving 300 times slower than his blade

No again, as Chariot (the user) said that zoom out isn't that big of a difference, even then his sword should be visible anyway because according to you Silver Chariot can't even get close to the beam in the same time the beam travels over half a meter.

It means that Silver Chariot did the slash while HM was a little distance away from the coin. You saying that Polnareff said "Now!" when the beam just exited the beggar's eye and Chariot started the slash at that moment is headcanon. Fact of the matter is, we see the dialogue when HM is already close to the coin, if the intention was to have him say just as he threw the sand it would be done in a panel earlier where the sand goes into the beggar's eye.

Well Polnareff doesn't have to wait, he doesn't have his senses linked with his Stand. You can say it doesn't make sense all you want but that's how it happens in every official adaptation.

 

[Huzy]

Also why are we just ignoring The Sun?

 

[Chariot190]

> Or, the Stand is MFTL and showcases that when he tags said SOL with ease? And then later pulls other FTL+ feats out of nowhere to support this, as well as scaling to characters who are already FTL+?

a MFTL stand shouldnt be simply tagging an SOL character, he should be outright blitzing. it's in the name, massively faster than light.

He literally does? The Stand ends up blitzing the SOL, by a hundred times over.

This Stand also casually later on blocks multiple lasers simultaneously, proving that, a laser isnt actually a issue to him.

The user? Maybe. The Stand? No.

Maybe I wasnt clear but I'm only saying the Stand is MFTL, not the user himself.

 

[Antvasima]

I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion. Alternately, a staff member can use the @Username notification system.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Ah jeez. I'll read though this soon enough.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

The sheer ammount of bias against jojo is certainly showing here from those who are against the MFTL rating

By this logic of Polnareff claiming he cant keep up might as well bring up Dyspo from DBS being too fast for the characters, who is just FTL according to a statement or how about Frieza telling GoD Toppo he will attack him with a blast that destroys an entire planet

This isnt the first time members of this site shows double standards between two different franchises with similar cases

 

[Damage3245]

@BlackDarkness679; I'm not as familiar with the issue with Dyspo, but "FTL" is not a set speed in fiction.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

"FTL is not a set speed in fiction"

So numerous franchises that say a character is faster then light doesnt exist as a speed...

 

[Metalballrun]

Alright, this is absolutely my last reply in this thread lol. There is a gigantic ******* storm about to hit my place and I won't be online for a while.

>Except Chariot didnt have a issue tagging the lightspeed Stand, in every single instance he does so just fine, it was moreso Pol who had an issue. In fact, as obviously shown, he outright blitzes it. It is established, kinda excessively so. i dont really agree with it but it happens far to many times to ignore, with it even being stated that's the reason behind it. Sure why not, it should be noted, especially in Josuke's case because it happens a lot with his ass.

Are we ignoring the fact that Pol has explicitly stated that Hanged Man is too fast unless they find out its trajectory? Because that's a pretty big issue about tagging HM, especially since it required them specific conditions to even actually tag it. I'll get about the "contradictions" to this statement below.
Please forgive me for saying that the longer I read these explanations, the more it feels like we're just departing more and more from the original fight just so we could reach the highest possible results we can have.

>Already said Pol not being MFTL, while unfortunate, is something I can accept. Just not the Stand who's consistently shown to be far above that speed.

Silver Chariot was only able to tag it by limiting and identifying its trajectory and having Silver Chariot at the ready. Being MFTL, means that such preparations would be unnecessary.

>Except, it's shown he's following the beam as well, not just the glints.

That's kinda the same thing, since the beams were moving or flashing at a specific direction. Pol having LS perceptions/reactions would also pose a very significant issue for your argument, which I'll try to explain below.

>Yeah sure, if Chariot's that fast, then he's that fast, he's explicitly shown to be that fast in comparison to the Hanged Man, it's literally what we see happen.

We can't really say that when he failed to tag him unless under specific circumstances. Also FRA my comments.

>See, an issue with this argument is that it would only work if Chariot's feats came solely from elsewhere, but that isnt the case, two such feats are done against the Hanged Man himself.

No. On the contrary, it's easy to present this argument as it's centered around a single battle so there aren't a lot of unknown variables to be considered.
The fact remains that Silver Chariot was only able to tag it by limiting and identifying its trajectory and having Silver Chariot at the ready.

Unless of course, we go by one or more of the 5 justifications I listed that came from this thread.

>Saying Chariot cant be that fast against the Hanged Man literally doesnt work, because the reason he is that fast against him is because, well, he literally was, he blitzed him numerous times over.

The issue still stands FRA.

>But yes, Chariot is hundreds of times faster than Hanged Man, he has feats of being literally shown that fast in comparison to him so this argument doesnt work because there isnt even a need for a hypothetical situation, there actually is one, add onto that Chariot basically deflecting four Hanged Mans at the same time later on as support.

Again, this doesn't explain nor counter my argument that Silver Chariot never acted like how an MFTL Stand would interact against a Stand that is 365x slower than it is.
If you're talking about The Sun feat, then there are multiple issues against it as well:

Supposed that it is indeed LS, then why wasn't Polnareff able to do the same against Hanged Man? Because the feat suggests Hanged Man should've been stomped the moment Polnareff figured out its nature.
He tagged four consecutive energy beams supposedly travelling at the speed of light, yet is having trouble tagging a single light speed Stand so much that it requires him figuring out its trajectory and preparing his Stand on its general direction? What gives? PIS?
These two supposed FTL speed feats don't add up to one another at all IMO. Truthfully it brings more questions that justifications.

>I dont see a single issue with it honestly. Youre confusing Polnareff with Chariot, which is worse than it sounds as they're two examples of being notable in that they dont have shared senses and, the fact we literally see Chariot be hundreds of times faster than it, kinda proves that it is, of course, backed by other feats as well. Actually, it's outright stated in that instance that not knowing the trajectory is a issue and couple that with the crowded space and people huddling around Pol, Chariot would have ended up harming or killing innocents.

Am I though?

First of all, you were arguing about Pol potentially having LS perception/reactions due to following Hanged Man's movements. Chariot has been shown to have great precision that his perception and reactions speed should be comparable to his combat speed (If I'm not mistaken), which is where the issue occurs FRA.

Also, let us not nitpick statements. The issue with Hanged Man's trajectory is in conjunction with the fact that Polnareff also stated (within the same lines no less) that he can't tag Hanged Man unless he knows its trajectory while having Silver Chariot at the ready. You can't take one and leave the other.

Also, the other feats lead only to frustrating inconsistencies, like with The Sun above.

>In that instance, it was borderline a hostage situation. Speed is indeed stated to be a issue, I'm not going to deny that, but so where other factors. Though, again, it being stated doesnt matter, this whole topic of debate is about if it is or isnt usable as a counterpoint. It's heavily contradicted and shown false so, like anything else, it doesnt invalidate the multiple feats. Kinda how the wiki works as a whole really.

I don't understand the latter parts at all as I didn't read any contradiction against my argument about Silver Chariot and Hanged Man in any of these comments. But anyways...

My argument again still stands (lol). Silver Chariot was only able to tag it by limiting and identifying its trajectory and having Silver Chariot at the ready. Being MFTL, means that such preparations would be unnecessary.

Such a speed would also allow Silver Chariot to slice Hanged Man to pieces without harming a single person, since both Stands would statue them in comparison.

>Because it literally doesnt? The narrator explanation explains how it works and so does, well, he himself. He's literally the laser, the laser kinda physically cant linger around because he IS it, and if he reaches a object, the laser is gone because, well, he's it, and has reached his destination. I'm glad you point that out, in the anime it shows you going from one surface to another, one at a time. which leads me to believe, the manga is meant to convey motion, kinda like how that infamous 3 D4C panel is a thing or multiple Star Platinums. Though, there's also the fact it's kinda outright say he moves from one surface to another.

This doesn't really mean that it doesn't form lingering beams, as portrayed in the manga as those lines are clearly light beams. It is undeniable that it would require extreme levels of perception speed, but even if we get to compare it in other fictional media, there's plenty of characters who can perceive flashes or movements of light while not necessarily being able to react to it. Which leads to an another issue being that perception and reaction speed are actually different, along with supposed light speed feats being considered outliers, but I digress.

>That's impossible though, the zoom out is negligible (though reminder, this was drawn back in early 90s, the zoom out is so negligible it's likely just because of having to redraw the same panel by hand, leading to minor discrepancies), it's by literally just a few inches. And in said second panel, Chariot is several feet in front of the POV. If Chariot was there already, he'd be seen in both. It's impossible to say this isnt the case. If what youre insinuating is true, we'd have seen him, in full view mind you. That's actually only stated the first time, which doesnt actually change anything because no matter how it's interpreted, the slash only happened after HM was near the coin. No more, no less. And the calc only takes account the swing so it, well, doesnt actually change anything.

Not entirely, like we even see a zoom out, and if we're going to take technicalities of drawing and manga paneling in consideration then such portrayal of a zoom out doesn't really seem strange at all, as further changes to the relative distance could potentially ruin the scene, so a zoom-out is shown in a minimal way but enough to suggest that it does happen.

And it makes sense and is consistent with Polnareff's statements as well as the first time he tagged Hanged Man which was while Silver Chariot was already at its trajectory.

>No different than DBZ and the whole lightspeed Dyspo fiasco. It's just PIS, contradicted multiple times over. Or, worse case scenario, it's just Pol being slow, not Chariot.

This doesn't negate the inconsistencies found in JJBA, unfortunately.

>Again, there is no interpretation of the feat, the feat itself is conclusive and straightforward, an interpretation implies vagueness or a possibility of it happening differently, which simply isnt the case. The feat is MFTL, that much is fact.

Except it is in fact, ambiguous.

We see the first time that Silver Chariot tagged Hanged Man that it was already well prepped on HM's trajectory. Likewise, the very same thing should've happened when it was tagged again with the coin scene. Since the moment Silver Chariot was revealed on panel, it was already at a considerable distance, on Hanged Man's trajectory, and has already swung its sword. The last part further implying that it completely relied on the trajectory in order to tag Hanged Man.
Which is then consistent with all the statements from the entire Hanged Man fight.

In fact the only persisting 'evidence' of MFTL feat is the anime portrayal of the coin toss scene which could just be chalked up with artistic license considering how different it is compared to the manga, from the angles to the way the feat was performed.
Like you said earlier IIRC, the anime would count as a supplementary feat it if isn't too different from the manga, but in this context, counting the anime feat would be your own interpretation of the feat, compared to my own.
But apparently we're choosing the high-ball route as the best interpretation while everything that says otherwise is either PIS, CIS, or whatever.
Which is quite frankly dubious IMHO.

>A character, Chariot, has multiple feats and showings that would normally confirm a FTL+/MFTL rating with zero issue.

This isn't true, FRA we've seen it having issues with an LS character, supported by statements from its very own user. We shouldn't ignore that as it persists within the entire arc.

The other issue being The Sun, and I already stated how grossly inconsistent Silver Chariot's performance is against Hanged Man in comparison to The Sun. Also with all the scaling issues I've listed below.

>It makes a bit of sense, but I agree that really isnt why at all. Though, are you really speaking of contradictions? This whole argument is based upon if a statement is contradicted or not.

The fact that even Polnareff noticed Hanged Man's light beams is a contradiction, especially since Silver Chariot would have superior senses compared to him as displayed with its other feats like against The Emperor. Also the fact that the issue about size has never been brought up AFAIK.

>I mean, yeah, kinda, Crazy Diamond literally blocks thousands of attacks of the same speed, but failed because a few came from his blindspot so he didnt know to react or counter because he didnt know about it. Happens a few times, and yes, hundreds of times, if the dude can deflect hundreds of that attack at the same time but failed because one was coming and didnt know where, well, literally hit by a attack he's hundreds to thousands of times faster then.

If we're referring to Bad Company here, this isn't particularly strange especially if we consider that they are of similar speeds. IIRC, Bad Company's attacks are just hails of small bullets coming from pretty much predictable and noticeable directions.
And here's the main point: blocking requires far less speed compared to the attack being blocked, and Bad Company has significantly small AoE as well.
Naturally, he'll get hit if it's from somewhere unexpected.
This however doesn't explain an MFTL Stand struggling with a LS Stand.

>Probably the singular statement that's shown to be false by the actual feats of the Stand? this isnt even being picky, it isnt like Chariot's insane speeds are restricted to just this arc, he has one again later on. It's pretty obvious which thing is sus here, and it aint the multiple feats.

More like the entire arc and the context of it? I've addressed the issues about The Sun above.

>Like if a human speed stand user had a MFTL+ Stand that wasnt sentient or automatic, the Stand wouldnt really do anything unless summoned and given a command.

This is the only good point I see if only if there wasn't an argument that Polnareff has LS reactions/perception speed (MFTL in the profiles) which should be sufficient for him to react and summon his MFTL Stand to absolutely shred the inferior Stand to a million pieces.

>You're acting like because Polnareff said a contradictory quote it must mean he's stupid, it could just, in reality, be a quote that was contradicted and thus doesnt amount to much. You're confusing PIS with CIS.

Or maybe he's just stupid. Which is CIS, I suppose.

>Yes, congratulations, that would be the line that's contradictory and shown to be false within that very arc.

Or is it? I listed my skepticisms of the feats above.

>And I explained above why it isnt.

You didn't though. This argument still stands.

>Uh, what?

Exactly what the scan shows, Enya parrying blows with Silver Chariot. She also had a feat against Hol Horse who has MFTL reactions. Enya herself is listed in the wiki as having MFTL reactions. With these feats, she's therefore MFTL then.

>You're joking right? You do realize those knives are thrown by a superhuman character at insane speeds right? That's not an anti-feat, it's not anything, it's literally an unquantifiable feat.

You can read my comment and the scan again.
Being thrown by a superhuman character at insane speeds matters not in this context. All of the knives are FROZEN IN TIME. Star Platinum, a supposed MFTL Stand scaling from Silver Chariot, can move in 1 second within stopped time. Yet was barely able to parry away any of the knives.
If this isn't a massive anti-feat, I honestly don't know what is.

>I'm not even gonna bother touching up the plane example, I really shouldn't have to explain that one.

MFTL Nazi plane it is then, since a character who has MFTL reactions wasn't able to dodge it in time despite it being several meters away. Despite the plane being described going at 240 kph.

>As for the eruption, Kars actually did react, everyone did actually, Kars even seemingly reacts to the Aja laser when it's fired. And the flying hand and debris? You kinda left out a huge important statement there (well you didnt leave it out, but you sure as hell didnt mention it).
"The lapse in concentration caused by the sudden appearance of Jojo's cut arm sealed Kars' fate! He was launched even further by the white-hot fragments he could have dodged otherwise"
It literally says he was only hit because he was distracted by the arm and also dealing with Joseph's bullshit.

MFTL Kars was unable to move out of the way in time. He also notes that they were being launched at an astonishing speed, being launched by a volcanic eruption.
There isn't anything explaining that Kars' MFTL reaction speed didn't let him dodge a flying hand. And that's all it took to dull his MFTL senses for him to get hit by a projectiles moving at best 200-300 m/s, which you can say is how fast the flying hand was as well.
Terrible showings for MFTL characters.

>I dont think you or anyone realize this but I'm not saying keep everyone MFTL, ****, in regards to Stands literally less then ten that I can think of would retain the rating

I mean we've mostly been only arguing about the things that you're saying are FTL or MFTL.

If there's anything directed at other dubious speed ratings like in Part 4 that's just directed at the profiles themselves, which should be the purpose of this thread I suppose.


****

Also, this is a disclaimer since, with one of the recent comments, I might get accused of having bias against JoJo. So let me state these things about myself:

• I love JoJo. A significant fraction of the karma of my reddit account is due to posting on r/shitpostcrusaders and making cringe JoJokes in the past.
• I couldn't give a shit about Dragon Ball Super's speed ratings. They can get downgraded for all I care, but I don't think it's relevant to this thread at all.
• Again, I don't hate JoJo. I'm a JoJo fan. Having a different thoughts about their speed is irrelevant to that. This is just a hobby conducted in moderation,

Well, this is just to get everything in place. If some of my comments are seemingly confrontational, they are not intentional nor are they intended to be personal. Apologies for the walls of texts. Peace out.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Why do we believe Polnareff saying he cant react to HG when he is proven wrong

Are we really gonna ignore how characters in fiction state they can or cant do something but then we see they were wrong

Again by this logic DBS characters in the last arc near its end are no better then FTL or that they are just planet level cuz frieza tells GoD Toppo his attack just destroys a planet

None of you do anything other then insist on debunked things and stretch it out, this is just ridiculous

 

[Damage3245]

Can I put in a request... If you're quoting something from somebody multiple times without using the quote boxes... could you try putting the quoted sections in italics or bold or something? It can help break up what appears to be a massive wall of text otherwise.