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Let's slow down a little (JJBA speed downgrade)

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Since I can't do this, I'll use the old method.

>You may disagree, but saying that Crazy Diamond was consistently portrayed as fast as Star Platinum was just wrong

Then change to "CD is comparable with SP". Crazy D attacked RHCP fast enough for him to not react, tho he could defeat Crazy D after he regain consciousness / understand what happened. Just saying, CD is somewhat comparable to SP. He would be FTL/SoL regardless this.

>We know that. But you're wrong, it's not just the feat and the statement, but also all the anti-feats of them not being able to hit it. Putting all those showings in a graphic and having their MFTL feat there too would be the most basic showing of what an outlier is.

Yeah no, I'm not. All the anti-feats you're saying are easily justified with the attack being something unpredictable and not something fast for SC to not react. I know Polnareff stated that SC can't attack him because of the speed, but that's not even close of what actually heppened there. I'm not even sure if Polnareff tried to attack Hanged Man in mid flight before the coin scene. I don't agree with MFTL speeds since the calc is wrong, because the scene can't be used to scale.
 
@Metalballrun It isn't an anime only scene, manga doesn't show if Polnareff already activated SC before that. It would still be a speed feat, since SC sliced his arm to cut Hanged Man before he could hit the coin.
 
Anyway I gave my thoughts about Hanged Man feats, I don't really care about it since the MFTL calc is wrong. I can recalc the feat. I just think that using Hanged Man to say that Polnareff couldn't react to a lightspeed attack is wrong. No matter how you look at the feat, Polnareff reacted.
 
M3X said:
Yeah no, I'm not. All the anti-feats you're saying are easily justified with the attack being something unpredictable and not something fast for SC to not react. I know Polnareff stated that SC can't attack him because of the speed, but that's not even close of what actually heppened there. I'm not even sure if Polnareff tried to attack Hanged Man in mid flight before the coin scene. I don't agree with MFTL speeds since the calc is wrong, because the scene can't be used to scale.
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That's not even close to the reader's interpretation*

In-verse, both feats and statements are him being slower; with his feats being through anticipations no matter how they "look like".
 
This feat is open to interpretation, since it's being discussed, not a fact. I gave my thoughts, I'm not going to discuss this anymore since it's useless for the ratings now
 
M3X said:
@Metalballrun It isn't an anime only scene, manga doesn't show if Polnareff already activated SC before that. It would still be a speed feat, since SC sliced his arm to cut Hanged Man before he could hit the coin.
Click to expand...
Comparing it to the manga, the anime scene is very different. It can be freely assumed that Polnareff already had Chariot prepared to attack Hanged Man in anticipation to its trajectory in the manga, while as per the YT link, Silver Chariot was moving while Hanged Man as a beam of light was moving considerably slower than Hanged Man (it was even frozen as Chariot made his sword-slash motions, so taking the anime scene at face value makes Chariot MFTL).
Overall it doesn't really makes sense for SC to be faster than HM. At best you can argue that his sword slash can reach SL or FTL speeds maybe.
 
I've already said that no matter how you look at this feat, SC will be faster than HM there
 
if a dude pointed a gun at me i know where the bullet will hit but im still gonna get shoot because i dont have the speed to react to it
 
GiornoGiovannaF said:
if a dude pointed a gun at me i know where the bullet will hit but im still gonna get shoot because i dont have the speed to react to it
Click to expand...
Besides Aimdodging being a thing, you can actually react without being supersonic yourself since it would need less time overall.
 
I was just thinking about how silly MFTL JoJo was this morning. Funny how things work out like this.

At the very least, I agree with the downgrade for the Hanged Man feat FRA.

I'll stand by on the Red Hot Chili Peppers thing, though.
 
i think it should be brought up to araki not depicting jojo as a fast verse.

being able to be at the location of where light is headed and still be there before light hits that spot is still a fairely strong point. and its not that silly when you factor in character's like johnny or jotaro.
 
Polnareff reacting to Hanged Man shouldn't even be SOL, he explicitly stated that he is much slower and needed to predict the trajectory.
 
Slacjow said:
Polnareff reacting to Hanged Man shouldn't even be SOL, he explicitly stated that he is much slower and needed to predict the trajectory.
Click to expand...
its different when it comes to scaling. you still need to send your stand to the point before HM got there....no matter how you look at it it hits the same result. and it works too! we still scale the sbr verse to the main verse...johnny reacts and moves faster than tw can hit him and many say he scales to part 3 tw. there is overwhelmingly strong evidence for it
 
Thebannanaworkshop said:
its different when it comes to scaling. you still need to send your stand to the point before HM got there....no matter how you look at it it hits the same result. and it works too! we still scale the sbr verse to the main verse...johnny reacts and moves faster than tw can hit him and many say he scales to part 3 tw. there is overwhelmingly strong evidence for it
Click to expand...
Why are you talking about the scaling? It's not the main topic.
 
Slacjow said:
Polnareff reacting to Hanged Man shouldn't even be SOL, he explicitly stated that he is much slower and needed to predict the trajectory.
Click to expand...
Because apparently, Polnareff/Silver Chariot is MFTL since it should be faster than Hanged Man and deflected "beams of light" from The Sun.
And the reason he wasn't able to tag Hanged Man at first is because it was too small to see (which has never been stated, nor implied AFAIK), not because Hanged Man is too fast (which is explicitly stated by Polnareff).
The way the anime portrayed Silver Chariot slashing Hanged Man looks comfortably FTL but looks like an outlier given the context of the entire fight.
 
Going through one topic at a time. Starting with Hanged Man.

>And honestly, did people forgot about the fight while applying this? No offense, but the whole point of the fight was that light speed is too fast for Silver Chariot and that Polnareff needed to anticipate the trajectory by limiting it. (Ik one of them has a different translation, but it's more coherent overall + the official translation says basically the same).

That's a half truth. You're ignoring half the context and the examples where he outproves this notion false.

>Even the last cut was only possible because of the coin thrown by Kakyoin, since otherwise Polnareff couldn't predict and touch him (some can say "it's because he didn't want to hit the people", but that's sure wasn't what they said).

It's probably gotta do with the fact there's like a good 3 dozen places he could come out and if he doesnt know the exact place he could very well just end up missing him move entirely and then getting a knife to the back, not saying that's the whole reason, but it isnt as simple as youre implying. And that doesnt change what actually happened, Chariot very clearly attacked after he was almost there, not before.

>So a MFTL slower than a LS dude, needing to anticipate his movement and who can't touch it when he has more than one possible trajectory? Not really possible. A low FTL or something like that would however have some consistence.

Actually that LS dude is slower than the MFTL dude, you're ignoring that in every single instance, Chariot attacked AFTER the Hanged Man began moving. He didnt attack before and time it so his attack him it while he was moving (you kinda cant do that if you attack after he's already moving). In every instance the hanged man came out, began moving then Chariot came out, swung, and hit Hanged Man before he could reach his destination. Even if you want to argue that Pol had to aimdodge kinda, it's impossible to deny that Chariot explicitly and visually attacked after he began moving in every single instance as such the full results scale to Chariot, even if not Pol.


>Besides Aimdodging being a thing, you can actually react without being supersonic yourself since it would need less time overall.

It isnt aimdodging, in all instances Chariot comes out after and attacks him midflight. Also in all instances the distances between them is like, 1m at most. You go dodge a bullet from 1m away after it was fired, see what happens.

Look, I'm going to be blunt here. The whole Chariot Hanged Man thing doesnt work as a counterargument. We know for an absolute fact Pol can keep up with it to an extent and Chariot is outright faster.

Why do we know?

[

Polnareff perceives the Hanged Man]. Contrary to popular belief or statements. An overlooked feat and the entire basis for the follwing scenes in the whole Hanged Man fiasco is, put simply. Polnareff himself ''explicitly'' states that he could see The Hanged Man move between surfaces at lightspeed. The only reason Polnareff figured out Hanged Man was lightspeed and was moving between surfaces that reflect light is because he ''saw him do it''. Polnareff, explicitly so, could perceive and react to The Hanged Man's laser-beam lightspeed mode. Even clarifying that he seen it happen. This is lightspeed reactions, undeniably so, Polnareff himself could see the Hanged Man move at light speed between objects, even following the trail and movements. As stated previously, but to reiterate to make it more clear, prior to this, Polanreff had absolutely zero idea what The Hanged Man's power was or how it was attacking from within reflections and the like, it was only after Polnareff explicitly noticed, saw, and kept up with the Hanged Man's laser, that Polnareff knew the nature of The Hanged Man's ability, because, of course, he saw him moving at lightspeed between multiple objects.



But, obviously there's contention of something like "Well Chariot had to aimdodge/strike pre-emptively to hit Hanged Man". False, in every single situation, Chariot attacked afterwards.
If in every single instance, the Stand Silver Chariot comes out and attacks after the the lightspeed Hanged Man is already on the move, attacks him mid movement, all before he gets to his destination, then Chariot is > Hanged Man. The argument of aimdodge and the like doesnt even work because in all instances Chariot came out and attack when The Hanged Man had little distance left to travel.


As you can see here, this too is consistently portrayed across all media as well.
In the manga, anime and OVA, Chariot comes out to strike only after The Hanged Man is nearing the coin (In the manga Polnareff himself yells "Now!" indicating when he's about to summon Chariot and swing, with said instance being when the Hanged Man is like a inch away from the coin.
mYoZACc.jpg

xFyDBXp.jpg


As you can see here, it not only happens in the manga, but it's even portrayed the same across all media. (Hell, it even looks like Chariot returned to Pol immediately after while HM was still mid flight).

Ie, the whole "Polnareff cant react to the Hanged Man" is complete bullshit, the only reason why Pol figured out he was lightspeed and could move between surfaces is because he literally saw him do it, he didn't put two and two together, he didn't get told by someone else, the enemy didn't monologue. He literally just straight up saw it happened and was like "huh, so he's lightspeed then?".

And the aimdodge/preemptitive strike doesn't work either because Chariot always attacked after, not before. It's literally impossible to call it aimdodging or striking ahead of time, saying it is would be literally lying through one's teeth. Yes, it's insinuated Pol would have issue tagging The Hanged Man, but when all these blogs say "it's contradicted by what we see", they're saying it for a damn good reason, because it is contradicted, ,multiple times over. This simply doesn't work as a counter argument. It's basically on par with saying Zeno isn't FTL because he couldn't keep up with Dyspo, despite the fact it's contradicted multiple times over.

Also fyi, Chariot doesn't tag the Hanged Man just in that one instance, he does it twice. Both times swinging after HM begins moving. Also, for what its worth. Chariot and Polnareff don't have linked senses like some stand users like Jotaro and Star Platinum, while Jotaro can perceive things through Star Platinum, Pol cant through Chariot, just thought I'd mention that, though it doesnt change this at all.
 
Some of the links came out wrong, sorry. It doesnt work like it did on the old forum, I have to tweak them a bit.

Also in regards to the sun and them being or not being light beams. I actually have guide scans for that saved somewhere on my PC, ill look for them.
 
Mind you, I'm not in complete opposition to downgrading of some characters, scaling every and their mother to the fastest ************* in the verse is sus. But MFTL for Chariot and Star Platinum nearing his best is fine.
Shit like MFTL Echoes and The Hand though is mad sus.

I can compromise here.
 
The Sun's lasers are lightspeed. We know this for a multItude of reasons.
1. They come from a literal miniature sun. Specifically stated to come from the photosphere of it.
2. They move in a straight line. They do not curve or anything akin to that.
3. The beams don't explode, they burn and melt just like a actual laser-beam, they're explicitly stated to be light and heat-based.
4. They bounce off and reflect off shiny surfaces like Chariot's blade, they also bounce off in a straight line and not in a curve.
5. They were stated to be lasers by Joseph, who most certainly knows what an actual laser-beam is, given he had to deal with them several times in his youth.
6. Stated by multiple guides, these beams are light-rays. The official name for these beams even is called "Light-Ray Energy". Ergo, they're light-based lasers that are fired from a photosphere of a literal miniature star.
Here's two guide scans. The smaller one is where it's called Light-Ray Energy and specifies what they are. The other one is idk, forget where the relevant info is exactly so there's the whole thing. But the whole photosphere and heat and light based attack statement is somewhere in there.

As you can see, they not only qualify for every thing needed to be considered light, but they are even officially called light rays and lightbeams in all guides available.
As for the feat. Polnareff noticed the lasers coming long before they were even in view (at least lightspeed reaction, also probably an enhanced senses feat but that's something else entirely). Every other character as well manages to react to them in some manner (Joseph covers Kakyoin for example).
The big feat is Chariot deflecting several lasers all coming from in a shotgun like motion and managing to deflect every single one despite the distance between said lasers being miniscule. Again, aimdodging or striking isnt possible here, he deflects one beam then goes to deflect the next beam in succession when all beams are extremely close together.
 
iirc The World from Diego is the same from Dio, as Araki didn't create a chart/profile for him. (meaning that they are the same since Araki didn't bother to make a new one)
 
Here, the red boxed parts are the parts that call them light rays, light beams and that it attacks with light beams and all that shit. For those that don't want to bother translating, you can clearly make out "光" in all instances multiple times.
zBnh00s.jpg
 
If Polnareff really was 365 times faster than Hanged Man... why would he need to predict its trajectory in order to hit it? Why would he say he can't keep up with something hundreds of time slower than he is?

It's like needing to know the trajectory of a tortoise marching towards you... It's so contradictory it's not even funny.
 
M3X said:
iirc The World from Diego is the same from Dio, as Araki didn't create a chart/profile for him. (meaning that they are the same since Araki didn't bother to make a new one)
Click to expand...
yeah. but here's the thing....johnny is like a subsonic human. being able to be in the opposite direction. turn around...notice the world standing behind you and fire before it has the chance to hit you does seem pretty sus. considering johnny seemed to be doing this off of reflexes.
 
I already touched upon that. And really, doesn't matter. If Chariot blitzes him twice, many times over and is shown to be a ludicrous amount faster in all known interpretations of the feat, then that's that. Nothing is going to change the fact Chariot's speed is consistently portrayed much higher, it isnt like Chariot barely managed to tag the Hanged Man, he blitzed him.

Like it or not, the lightspeed Hanged Man came out, nearly reached the coin, Chariot then came out, swung and hit him, all before he could close that miniscule gap he had left to cross. Chariot also struck him another time so it wasn't a one off occurrence, Chariot swung after he began moving that time as well.

This is even further backed by The Sun feat, which is confirmed to be lightspeed as well 9dont know why it was ever doubted but eh), meaning Chariot's FTL+ feats aren't even restricted to just that instance.

Also I never said Pol was MFTL, saying I did would be a strawman, I said Chariot was, there could very well be a discrepancy between him and his Stand, as said, they don't have shared senses unlike someone like Jotaro and his Stand. But Polnareff himself clearly has SoL reactions at least given, he, well, reacted to the Hanged Man just fine and tracked his ass with his eyes, to the point that's literally how he learned he's a light based Stand that moves to reflections.

>It's so contradictory it's not even funny.

Hypocritical. Are you telling me it's contradictory? When in reality we see plain as day Chariot is ludicrously faster, being able to consistently tag him after he begins moving, Pol can track the Hanged Man just fine and does so on panel, even moving his head at lightspeed to keep track. If anything, it's the other way around, there's far more evidence to the contrary then there is for your claim. The fact we see it happen, and then other feats later on happen as well the back it, would suggest the polar opposite of the claim being proposed here. What's not funny is a explicit disregard for substantial evidence proving that they very well can keep up and exceed the Hanged Man.
 
These feats all support LS to a bit into FTL best. I would be fine with that for folks with SC level speed and above
 
> But Polnareff himself clearly has SoL reactions at least given, he, well, reacted to the Hanged Man just fine and tracked his ass with his eyes, to the point that's literally how he learned he's a light based Stand that moves to reflections.

If somebody turns on a laser pointer for a split-second, you'd be able to see the beam and react to it.

Judging by the scans further up, it doesn't seem like Polnareff is reacting to the beam before it hits its intended target. The beam is fully created in each of those panels.
 
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