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JoJo speed downgrade

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Thicc18

Thicc18

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I have no issue with FTL JoJo. I think that this is consistent. But MFTL JoJo comes from a calculation that puts Silver Chariot at 225c due to slashing Hanged Man. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:M3X/JoJo_Part_3_-_Chariot_And_The_Speed_Of_Light

While the calc checks out, the issue is that this moment is not consistent. During the course of the whole fight, Polnareff and Kakyoin had difficulty with Hanged Man's light-speed. Polnareff himself notes that because of it's speed he normally wouldn't be able to slash it, but due to knowing where exactly it'd go next he managed to pull it off by swinging in the path it was going to take. The speed was what gave him trouble.



This becomes an issue when you try to scale the entire main cast to MFTL off this feat. For example, Star Platinum being 225 times faster than Hanged Man makes no sense as Polnareff was able to consistently react to Star Platinum's speed, yet as we established he normally wouldn't be able to slash Hanged Man due to it's speed unless he knew where Hanged Man will go next ahead of time.



Furthermore, if Polnareff was 225 times faster than Hanged Man, Polnareff wouldn't struggle with it's speed, nor would he need to know which path Hanged Man will take ahead of time to be able to slash him. Hanged Man would literally be like a snail to Polnareff ( Average human running speed is 208-270 times faster than a garden snail. ).

I think relativistic levels of speed would be much more consistent for characters like Kakyoin, Avdol and Joseph.

For characters like Jotaro FTL combat at top-speed would be much more consistent.

Polnareff is more tricky, but I'd say low-end relativistic+ and high-end FTL.
 
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You seem to have missed that Silver Chariot is the outright MFTL one on the profile not Polnareff himself, and he did pretty well following Hanged Man's movements with his perception, although he's listed as Peak Human physically his own perceptions would be Relativistic+ atleast, and Anubis Possessed Polnareff is much faster than Polnareff himself and Anubis directly scales to the MFTL value while having reactive evolution on top of that, himself so do the math.
 
Shey said:
You seem to have missed that Silver Chariot is the outright MFTL one on the profile not Polnareff himself, and he did pretty well following Hanged Man's movements with his perception, although he's listed as Peak Human physically his own perceptions would be Relativistic+ atleast, and Anubis Possessed Polnareff is much faster than Polnareff himself and Anubis directly scales to the MFTL value while having reactive evolution on top of that, himself so do the math.
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I am aware of this. It does not address the inconsistency at hand. If Polnareff or Silver Chariot, whichever of the two you believe does the reacting, struggle with reacting to Hanged Man, it makes no sense for any of the crusaders to be 225 times faster than Hanged Man.

Unless Anubis possessed Polnareff is over a hundred times faster than a regular Polnareff, which makes no sense, point still stands. And that was just an example to show how the argument for MFTL JoJo is inconsistent. I can bring a thousand different examples. The point would remain. If Magician Red is over 100 times faster than Hanged Man "because it kept up with SC and dodged his attacks", how can Polnareff or Silver Chariot react to him where as he's directly stated he normally wouldn't be able to slash Hanged Man due to it's speed? Even if I rule the Jotaro example out, the overall point still stands. The reason for MFTL JoJo makes no sense and is not consistent.
 
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Shey said:
You seem to have missed that Silver Chariot is the outright MFTL one on the profile not Polnareff himself, and he did pretty well following Hanged Man's movements with his perception, although he's listed as Peak Human physically his own perceptions would be Relativistic+ atleast, and Anubis Possessed Polnareff is much faster than Polnareff himself and Anubis directly scales to the MFTL value while having reactive evolution on top of that, himself so do the math.
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You also mentioned that Polnareff did well perceiving Hanged Man, but that doesn't address the fact that he still couldn't slash Hanged Man without knowing where Hanged Man will come from ahead of time to slash in the path he was going to take. Which is stated to be because of Hanged Man's speed. Again, Polnareff notes this himself. If Polnareff or SC were x225 faster than Hanged Man, that wouldn't be necessary to successfuly slash it. Perceiving and physically reacting are two different things.
 
I'm not gonna answer everything because I'm pretty sure @Chariot190 will. But I'd like to answer one thing here.
Thicc18 said:
This becomes an issue when you try to scale the entire main cast to MFTL off this feat. For example, Star Platinum being 225 times faster than Hanged Man makes no sense as Polnareff was able to consistently react to Star Platinum's speed, yet as we established he normally wouldn't be able to slash Hanged Man due to it's speed unless he knew where Hanged Man will go next ahead of time.
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I think you meant Chariot, anyway, no, he wasn't. This version of Chariot was being amped by Anubis, becoming faster. Anubis itself is faster than Chariot, and Star Platinum was able to react to Anubis' fastest attack. Jotaro was also holding back. Besides that, Star Platinum was stated to be the fastest Stand a lot of times actually.
 
M3X 2.0 said:
I'm not gonna answer everything because I'm pretty sure @Chariot190 will. But I'd like to answer one thing here.

I think you meant Chariot, anyway, no, he wasn't. This version of Chariot was being amped by Anubis, becoming faster. Anubis itself is faster than Chariot, and Star Platinum was able to react to Anubis' fastest attack. Jotaro was also holding back. Besides that, Star Platinum was stated to be the fastest Stand a lot of times actually.
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As I've said, even if we give you that, the overall point stands. This example can be made with every other crusader. Like with Magician Red, as I explained above. And yeah, I'm aware that Jotaro's SP is faster than Chariot.
 
The overral point is the same from years ago that was debunked countless times. I'm not even worried as you see.
 
M3X 2.0 said:
The overral point is the same from years ago that was debunked countless times. I'm not even worried as you see.
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I don't see how the fact that the argument for x225c crusaders is not consistent has gotten debunked, but I guess I'll just have to wait for @Chariot190 to see what he has to say.
 
Thicc18 said:
You also mentioned that Polnareff did well perceiving Hanged Man, but that doesn't address the fact that he still couldn't slash Hanged Man without knowing where Hanged Man will come from ahead of time to slash in the path he was going to take. Which is stated to be because of Hanged Man's speed. Again, Polnareff notes this himself. If Polnareff or SC were x225 faster than Hanged Man, that wouldn't be necessary to successfuly slash it. Perceiving and physically reacting are two different things.
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Chariots movement and combat speed being MFTL isn't contradicted by Pol not having MFTL reactions which was the primary reason for the struggle. Imagine you with a gun trying to shoot something moving at the speed of sound. you barely being able to react fast enough to land the shot doesn't mean the bullet can't move relative in speed to the object. Besides in every medium, the feat shows Chariot blatantly out speeds Hang Man.
 
Polnareff can't even see through his Stand, that is like a genuine weakness of his. That's why Polnareff personally was having a hard time trying to tag Hanged Man, but once he knew the direction, Silver Chariot just easily slices through him like butter. You can also see this when he easily deflected the rays of light from the sun stand with Chariot because he knew where it was coming but was struggling to tag like a shitty ass stand doll because he didn't know where the doll was since it blinded Polnareff's vision. The only downgrade here should be Polnareff's reactions since he doesn't fully scale to Chariot's speed

also I remember Chariot talking about it once but it is apparently established in Jojo that if you don't know where the attack is coming from, you can get tagged by the slowest things
Thicc18 said:
Star Platinum being 225 times faster than Hanged Man makes no sense as Polnareff was able to consistently react to Star Platinum's speed, yet as we established he normally wouldn't be able to slash Hanged Man due to it's speed unless he knew where Hanged Man will go next ahead of time.
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Polnareff was struggling and crying that he couldn't keep up with Anubis Khan anymore and begged Jotaro for help. Jotaro would then just beat the shit out of Anubis while holding back and continues to keep up with Anubis Polnareff in power and speed while holding back too. Im pretty sure the speed difference between the two is substantial.
 
ngl, you should go read these old ass threads about this that just.. debunks most of the stuff you say, OP.
vsbattles.com

Let's slow down a little (JJBA speed downgrade)

I surprisingly never saw any kind of downgrade about this, but MFTL for everyone and their grandmother is kinda incoherent, so let's go see everything regarding this: Polnareff and Hanged Man Basically the origin of the rating (since every others feats seems to be between FTL and FTL+); coming...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
vsbattles.com

JoJo's Bizarre Adventures: Speed CRT (Part 2 to 6)

Hello fellas. This is the JoJo Speed CRT. Currently, a lot of characters are scaled as "Massively FTL" or "Massively FTL reactions", but the rating comes from Silver Chariot, one of the fastest Stands in JoJo. Even Stands like Crazy Diamond and Echoes are rated as "Massively FTL", when it's...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
shrug.
 
Godernet said:
Chariots movement and combat speed being MFTL isn't contradicted by Pol not having MFTL reactions which was the primary reason for the struggle. Imagine you with a gun trying to shoot something moving at the speed of sound. you barely being able to react fast enough to land the shot doesn't mean the bullet can't move relative in speed to the object. Besides in every medium, the feat shows Chariot blatantly out speeds Hang Man.
Click to expand...
This logic doesn't hold up as Pol has the reaction speed to react to the other crusaders. If they were hundreds of times faster than Hanged Man he'd be unable to even touch them, considering he needed to know where Hanged Man will go ahead of time to be able to get a single slash on him, as again, stated.
 
Baken384 said:
Polnareff can't even see through his Stand, that is like a genuine weakness of his. That's why Polnareff personally was having a hard time trying to tag Hanged Man, but once he knew the direction, Silver Chariot just easily slices through him like butter. You can also see this when he easily deflected the rays of light from the sun stand with Chariot because he knew where it was coming but was struggling to tag like a shitty ass stand doll because he didn't know where the doll was since it blinded Polnareff's vision. The only downgrade here should be Polnareff's reactions since he doesn't fully scale to Chariot's speed
Click to expand...
Yes, but his reaction speed is good enough to react to Avdol, Kakyoin, and many other characters without the need of knowing where they'll attack from ahead of time.
 
TheGunsFinalWrath said:
ngl, you should go read these old ass threads about this that just.. debunks most of the stuff you say, OP.
vsbattles.com

Let's slow down a little (JJBA speed downgrade)

I surprisingly never saw any kind of downgrade about this, but MFTL for everyone and their grandmother is kinda incoherent, so let's go see everything regarding this: Polnareff and Hanged Man Basically the origin of the rating (since every others feats seems to be between FTL and FTL+); coming...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
vsbattles.com

JoJo's Bizarre Adventures: Speed CRT (Part 2 to 6)

Hello fellas. This is the JoJo Speed CRT. Currently, a lot of characters are scaled as "Massively FTL" or "Massively FTL reactions", but the rating comes from Silver Chariot, one of the fastest Stands in JoJo. Even Stands like Crazy Diamond and Echoes are rated as "Massively FTL", when it's...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
shrug.
Click to expand...
Read about a quarter of the thread and frankly it's too long for me to read the rest. The main arguments I saw were "Hanged Man is so small that it's hard to hit him. Speed wasn't the issue." and "Silver Chariot strikes faster than Hanged Man can move.".

First one is blatantly false as Polnareff has directly stated Hanged Man's speed is the issue, not it's size. Scan is on the post. Second one doesn't address Polnareff needing to know where Hanged Man will come from ahead of time to slice him while being able to tag other characters that are supposedly "hundreds of times faster than Hanged Man" without having to rely on that. If his speed was x225 that of Hanged Man's, Hanged Man would be in slow motion for him and he wouldn't need to resort to this to slice him. If Magician Red or just about any other P3 stand was over x100 Hanged Man, there's no way Polnareff could even remotely keep up with their speed, nor would he be able to even touch them with SC, as he couldn't touched Hanged Man without knowing where he'll come from ahead of time.

So yeah. That's as much as I'm addressing from these threads. I'm not gonna look through hundreds of old messages to find some supposed "debunk". If you have a debunk to my points provide it.
 
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Jesus ******* christ people never learn.

I'll shoot this whole thread down in one scan.
3d64bae9-e2f1-419a-a670-29fe1af3534c_1.jpg


A Stand User can be slower than their Stand, in fact, it's very, very, ******* common, with Chariot being an exceptional example of being far and beyond the speed of the user.

Stop conflating Pol being sublight as the Stand itself being just as fast as him, holy shit.
 
Thicc18 said:
This logic doesn't hold up as Pol has the reaction speed to react to the other crusaders. If they were hundreds of times faster than Hanged Man he'd be unable to even touch them, considering he needed to know where Hanged Man will go ahead of time to be able to get a single slash on him, as again, stated.
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This isn't even true, do you not know how Stand's work?

You're acting like Pol got into a fist fight with Jotaro, that never occurred, unless amped by Anubis anyway.
Thicc18 said:
I don't see how the fact that the argument for x225c crusaders is not consistent has gotten debunked, but I guess I'll just have to wait for @Chariot190 to see what he has to say.
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Lad, Chariot itself whips out FTL feats later on, unless you want to argue the sun with it's like 30+ light statements isn't lightspeed so Chariot deflecting simultaneously isn't a feat either 🥱
Acting like Hanged Man is the only FTL feat smh
And no, the Crusaders don't all have the same reaction speed, Kakyoin notably has less, Abdul is shown less than Jotaro (An example off the top of my head is when he grabs High Priestess by accident and is like oh **** and Jotaro needs to save him), and so on.
 
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Thicc18 said:
Read about a quarter of the thread and frankly it's too long for me to read the rest. The main arguments I saw were "Hanged Man is so small that it's hard to hit him. Speed wasn't the issue." and "Silver Chariot strikes faster than Hanged Man can move.".

First one is blatantly false as Polnareff has directly stated Hanged Man's speed is the issue, not it's size. Scan is on the post. Second one doesn't address Polnareff needing to know where Hanged Man will come from ahead of time to slice him while being able to tag other characters that are supposedly "hundreds of times faster than Hanged Man" without having to rely on that. If his speed was x225 that of Hanged Man's, Hanged Man would be in slow motion for him and he wouldn't need to resort to this to slice him. If Magician Red or just about any other P3 stand was over x100 Hanged Man, there's no way Polnareff could even remotely keep up with their speed, nor would he be able to even touch them with SC, as he couldn't touched Hanged Man without knowing where he'll come from ahead of time.

So yeah. That's as much as I'm addressing from these threads. I'm not gonna look through hundreds of old messages to find some supposed "debunk". If you have a debunk to my points provide it.
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Why does pol matter here. Bro thinks Pol = chariot in speed lmfao. Can you not get that confused first?

"If Magician Red or just about any other P3 stand was over x100 Hanged Man, there's no way Polnareff could even remotely keep up with their speed, nor would he be able to even touch them with SC, as he couldn't touched Hanged Man without knowing where he'll come from ahead of time."
Have you ever heard of the "farther the distance the easier it is to react to something"? Yes, that is a case even in JoJo.
Also "pol never said size was a issue" why does him not saying it make it so that the problem doesn't exist? This doesn't even make sense lmao. You can still use the surrounding context to determine it is a problem, alongside with the fact that Pol is surrounded by civilians, and Hanged man is using that to his advantage for it as we can see. 😭 Then there is also the weakness of Chariot, which is the fact that Pol can't see through the eyes of Silver Chariot, as we see in the ebony arc 💀

and not all crusaders have the same reaction speed either, like chariot said.
 
Baken384 said:
also I remember Chariot talking about it once but it is apparently established in Jojo that if you don't know where the attack is coming from, you can get tagged by the slowest things
Click to expand...


That is also true, two of many, many examples where they basically flat out say as much (Josuke another example of his Stand being quite a bit above his own speed, hence why even if the attacks are nowhere near CD's speed, not knowing where tehy'll come, being blindsided, etc ain't gonna help no matter how fast CD is).

Hell, there's even a statement saying as long as Pol knows where the light is going, his Stand can easily cut something that fast, it's not a issue on his Stand's end, it's an issue on his end, always has been.
軌道さえわかれば、光の速さで動く敵を切ることもたやすい。
"Once the trajectory is known, it is easy to cut an enemy moving at the speed of light."

Once the trajectory is known, actually cutting something at that speed is easy as **** for his Stand.

Not to mention, this isn't like Star Platinum where Jotaro can just go "hey bro protect me" and Plat will go "ora", in the same volume it is established Chariot is blind and needs to rely on Pol's commands to attack, and as long as Chariot knows where to attack, his speed is absolutely insane, but if not, he fallsback to manual control and it's dogshit because Chariot's own speed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pol's.
Like no shit, same volume Hanged Man starts has the Ebony Devil fight, a fight BASED around how Chariot has a weakness in that it's blind and needs to rely on Pol's commands unlike other Stands.
Case and point



Chariot while blind, and not being able to attack, manually told to attack where Pol feels Ebony Devil was last. He's called out on this as being slow as ****.


Caveats removed, Chariot knows where to attack.
Proceeds to blitz his foe so bad he shreds him into ribbons in the span of one attack from his foe.


There is a very clear and established difference between Pol and Chariot's own speeds, Hanged Man not even being Chariot's only blatant FTL feat, another being as mention, deflecting four laser beams from The Sun simultaneously. That's not even getting into the fact that dude's like Jotaro have confirmed speed of light reactions, or how Plat is faster than all Stands pre Part 5.
 
TheGunsFinalWrath said:
"If Magician Red or just about any other P3 stand was over x100 Hanged Man, there's no way Polnareff could even remotely keep up with their speed, nor would he be able to even touch them with SC, as he couldn't touched Hanged Man without knowing where he'll come from ahead of time."
Click to expand...
Polnareff can't remotely keep up with the likes of Star Platinum or even his own Stand tho 🗿
It's like how Koichi can't even keep up with his own Echoes Act 3 (which is mitigated thankfully by Echoes being cognizant and will do everything itself via simple commands like "protect me")

Best he can do is keep up with HG, and that mf slow af.

Oh, and by the way, hundreds of times slower?
Could check out tbh, take HG and Kak (who are in the same ballpark as pol himself), while not slow by any means, are, in comparison to the fast lads who scale to this, so much slower that they get literally ******* slow mo'd


Mf Dio sees that shit slow motion, MFTL dudes straight up eclipse those who are in Pol's own ballpark
 
Thicc18 said:
So yeah. That's as much as I'm addressing from these threads. I'm not gonna look through hundreds of old messages to find some supposed "debunk". If you have a debunk to my points provide it.
Click to expand...
Then don't make threads like these if you're not willing to gloss over the countless other threads where this has been tackled and debunked.
 
If it's any consolation I'm going to take Part 6 out back and ******* shoot it dead in a month so there's that (to adegree anyway).
This logic doesn't hold up as Pol has the reaction speed to react to the other crusaders.
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Also not really?
You could argue Abdul, but Abdul and him fought in an open area with each other in full view at all times, they basically legit had a pokemon battle because they honorable and wanted things to be fair, Chariot's issues wouldn't apply there (if they were even a thing in Araki's mind at the time tbh, it was his debut after all).
Another time was Kak, who is way, way below the likes of the Fast Squad.

And uh, that's it, he never flat out reacted to Plat, he never flat out reacted to Joseph (HP is ok, it's slow af too), he's done some sussy things, but one of said things is no shit, reacting to Hanged Man (Meaning all the times Pol got blitzed would make all those lads well into FTL lmao).



Pol even while sublight, is still pretty well into relativistic.
 
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