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Let's discuss KH3? SPOILERS for Kingdom Hearts 3 SPOILERS (Obviously.)

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@Axl233: Can you link to a video where it's stated as a product of Sora's willpower, and not just Kairi's? Because everything I see, it's not his own will that lets him hold onto any sort of form at all. He uses that form to collect his pieces, but he is NOT the reason why he got it.

His avoidance of crossing over into death from the Station of Awakening was Chirithy being lenient. (15:42 )

The reason he's hanging on is stated by Chirithy as "Something is holding you here-refusing to let you go." (16:18) AND by Namine that Kairi is fighting with all her strength to do so. (0:26)

Chirithy DOES say that "some persist", but every star in The Final World we see had someone important their Hearts linger on; It's clear that keeping any kind of form in TFW is dependent on having someone else special to you, perhaps especially who is still alive.

Sora/Sora's body was conceptually scattered, and your body being available to piece back together in TFW isn't even the norm. He wouldn't even have the form he did have to get any pieces at all if Kairi wasn't holding onto him.

Hearts in KH are akin to souls, the stars in The Final World seem to be capable of thought, emotion & memory, & normally, only the Heart ends up in TFW.

If Heart=Soul, or whatever contains all the thoughts, emotions & memories is equivalent to that, then going to The Final World proves that it WASN'T destroyed; If someone is there, it's because they're holding onto something or someone, or someone/something is holding onto them.

So only the body is gone, & in most cases, the body doesn't go to TFW; The Heart does.
 
I never said Sora died to the keyblade, I was asking in general since he's killed nobodies before with the keyblade.
 
Since Nobodies are regular ennemies who be killed by pretty much every being skilled enough (like Donald, Goofy or even Rapunzel), i don't think the Keyblade possesses Void Manipulation.
 
Ah. Sorry, my bad. I apologize if I'm being unpleasant. I tend to be verbose, & I'm tired.

Aren't Nobodies only Body & Soul? I'm not sure what happens to the Soul, and not all beings Recomplete themselves. Does anyone know the details of what the Heart &/or Soul do during Recompletion?

Otherwise, it seems SOMEWHAT reasonable to give the Keyblade EE... but on the other hand, plenty of Somebodies can be beaten with a Keyblade, & AFAIK, their Heart survives. Wasn't Eraqus able to put his Heart into Terra after Xehanort killed him?
 
I'm talking about Organization XIII themselves. It's actually outright stated in KH 3 from Sora "I don't think your frying pan will work on these enemies". Donald and Goofy are likely due to being powered by magic, Pete warns other worlds of their magic consistently in KH 2. Upon Larxene's death in CoM she outright states "I'm fading".
 
Nobodies have an uber amount of statements about not existing. The heart's honestly above even a "soul" since a "soul" does exist in kingdom hearts.
 
We only know so far that when you destroy a personn's Heartless and Nobody, this being is reborn. Since the series focuses on the heart and the body (to a lesser extent), there is no big precision about souls outside of its existence.

Yep he did so he could help Terra to fight Xehanort's influence over his body.
 
It's explicitly said that the Heartless and the Nobody must be destroyed to revive someone. Nothing is said about Axel's Heartless but he was likely destroyed too and we didn't focused on it.
 
Yeah,you are right about that it was indeed only Kairi's will that helped Sora,

im goted the impression of that since it was stated in the cutscene that his heart and body end up perishing and thats the place were people end up when that happens,but its just his body that got destroyed and Kairi is just sustaning his heart so he can have that form.
 
I could be wrong but didn't Chrithy indicated that as long as the will is strong enough or the personn is remembered by someone who doesn't want to let her go, the heart can retain a form ?
 
@ArkhamDC06: Do you remember the wording? The cutscene or a video of it?

Dialogue that could be interpreted as related to Sora's willpower:

"The natural end for those whose hearts and bodies perish together. But some persist, and arrive here." (However, Sora's persistence was likely a product of Kairi, I think.)

Chirithy: "Are you a Keyblade wielder, or aren't you? Haven't you already learned how to restore someone's heart after it's been lost?" Sora: "Restore their hearts? Is that the same as... the "power of waking"?" Chirithy: "I'm not sure, but... give it a shot?" Sora: "No. This'll take all my heart." (Relates more to how Sora returns the others than to how he got himself back.)

Chirithy DOES tell Sora:

"Usually, only a heart can reach the final world. But since you've clearly managed to retain some kind of form, that can only mean your body was cast into this world as well."

So we do know it's the usual for only a heart to end up in TFW.

Namine tells Sora: "I'm so glad that you managed to hold onto who you are." Namine also says about Kairi, to Sora: "She's fighting with all her strength to keep you from fading away."

"So the reason I retained my form in this place..." Namine: "It's because she's holding you together. Go to her."

Unfortunately, I don't know of any other dialogue indicating why Sora has a bodyless form.
 
As for the Stars, there are several of them. There's the nameless, voiced Star who's heart pines for another that lost his heart that she's waiting for.

Sora does tell that nameless Star "You have to believe.", & after clarifying what he means "I thought it was all over for me. But a friend of mine looked me in the eye, and said, "You don't believe that.""

But all other sources indicate Kairi's responsible for his own form, & Sora himself earlier in that conversation, says he's "Umm.... I'm a little hazy on the details.".

I'm not sure the reason he gave would be enough to say it's him alone.
 
Imaginym Not really, it's been days i finished the game.

So you think it can count as his Willpower (even if we're not totally sure about it) ?
 
If there is certain dialogue Chirithy said that you feel may be notable, I recommend finding it to post here; It's important to be able to verify the exact wording of a statement.

I don't think it counts as Sora's own will. The only thing I think Sora did for sure, was ensure his Heart ended up in TFW, because of his connection with everyone else, & in part, with Kairi, especially.

Chirithy tells us that only some persist & arrive in TFW, but when they do, it's their hearts. Not normally their bodies, like in Sora's case.

And Kairi HAS restored Sora from a Heartless (In KH1) which don't have bodies; They're darkness. So her giving him a form beyond just a heart for TFW seems in line with her abilities.

Chirithy mentions that "something" is holding Sora in TFW, & that he's hanging on by a thread. Namine tells him Kairi is why he has his form, and that Kairi is fighting with all her strength to keep him there.

And after Sora leaves TFW & reunites with Kairi, going towards the light, we hear him say stuff like "You're the reason I didn't fade away!", & "I feel strong with you, Kairi." & Kairi herself says "I told you, Sora. You're safe with me."


I don't think it'd be accurate to say Sora can use this type of Immortality/Regenerationn without Kairi seriously helping out. (Although, she can clearly do it under dire circumstances, seeing as she was assaulted by the Demon Tide before this happened.)

What I would agree to, though, is Sora likely having some form of Immortality for having previously gone to The Final World.

Consider what Chirithy says in response to Sora asking about death.

"The natural end for those whose hearts and bodies perish together. But some persist, and arrive here. But some persist, and arrive here."

Death does not NORMALLY lead to The Final World, & we can see that every Star in TFW, which is a Heart, has some kind of thought, emotion or memory about someone or something before their death that is why they are there.

It might also be POSSIBLE Sora can go to TFW on his own, but only has a Heart; Not with a form beyond that or body to piece back together. Those latter 2 things seem to be Kairi's doing, but given there are several beings in TFW with connections to people or things from before their death, Sora could be able to persist in the same way. It's very uncertain, however.

Sora was being held there by Kairi, so that's not his own power, but before Sora asks about death, Chirithy says:

"There's nothing else beyond this. You've wandered here more than once on your visits to the Station of Awakening, buuut... I let that slide. The edges of sleep and death touch, and one can't help but crossover."

So Sora has nearly died, or practically died and gone to The Final World multiple times before.

The Station of Awakening, also known as the Dive to the Heart is something Sora has gone to in KH1, KH2, Data-Sora has gone there during Coded, Riku went there during DDD, & Sora goes there once more, then to The Final World during the start of KH3.

I think this would be another Type 8, but reliant on Chirithy, as Chirithy has apparently, regarding Sora dying, or going (too) close to death, "let it slide". So reliant on Chirithy, or Chirithy being lenient.

Disappointingly, though, Chirithy's leniency mostly stems from sleep & death being close.
 
Thinking on it, his Chirithy reliant Type 8 would also probably be more likely when in the Station of Awakening, which Sora can & has fought in (Against Shadows & Darksides, & Roxas, notably.).

So it may be worth noting his reliant Immortality is more reliable in the Station of Awakening/Dive to the Heart.
 
Imaginym said:
Thinking on it, his Chirithy reliant Type 8 would also probably be more likely when in the Station of Awakening, which Sora can & has fought in (Against Shadows & Darksides, & Roxas, notably.).
So it may be worth noting his reliant Immortality is more reliable in the Station of Awakening/Dive to the Heart.
Click to expand...
So basically, as long as the Dive to the Heart exists, Sora will have the ability to go back and survive if i understand correctly. It is also possible that this is the same thing that happened with Xion/Kairi or Sora/Roxas/Ventus. Kairia could have protect Sora's heart due to the connection they share. So yeah, basically it is a form of reliant Immortality.

About that, since Luxu survived by placing his heart into other vessels over time, can we say that it is Immortality (Type 6) ? And if it is, can we talk about the same thing for Xehanort ? Or even Eraqus ?
 
Another thing i would like to talk about is Hades from the games. Shouldn't he have is own profile for KH since he is the most recurring Disney villain to appear in the games behind Maleficent ?
 
@ArkhamDC06:

The Immortality depends on Chirithy noticing a crossover between "the edges of sleep and death" & "letting it slide". And we don't know if Chirithy's done it for anyone else, given that Chirithy tells Sora it was let slide.

MAYBE Roxas; He does it while processing Sora's memories on his 3rd Day in KH2, & the imagery suggests it's Sora (And not Ventus's Heart), AND it would require Chirithy confusing Roxas for Sora. Possible, given their supposedly similar appearances & their sharing of Sora's Heart for a time.

Xion might be possible, given she was in Sora's Heart for a while, but like Roxas, she eventually also grew her own Heart. How Chirithy identifies folk is unclear.

If Chirithy gives the same leniency about sleep & death crossover to other folks, I could see it applying possibly to them. Possibly because Chirithy has only admitting to doing it for Sora.
 
ArkhamDC06 said:
Another thing i would like to talk about is Hades from the games. Shouldn't he have is own profile for KH since he is the most recurring Disney villain to appear in the games behind Maleficent ?
Click to expand...
I'm interested in this too. He is related to a few feats the cast scale from. I think someone more knowledgeable about our crossover &/or KH rules should input here.

(Sorry if I'm posting too much.)
 
Probably not since he is bound and could not escape from the plot of his world unlike Maleficent, who was able to survive. Also, if he had a profile it would be very similar to the Disney one.
 
@Dark649: Thank you very much for your (to me, surprisingly prompt) reply! If you're not too busy, is there anything in this you'd be willing to input about in this thread? For example, how do you feel about the Type 8 Immortalities reliant on Kairi, & Chirithy?

(Also, what do you think about making profiles for KHUX Pets?)
 
@The 2nd Existential Seed: Didn't Protagonist fight all 5 Foretellers in the Keyblade War? They were looked down upon, or only slightly commended by them, & collapsed from exhaustion, but they still fought all of them.
 
Imaginym It's very possible for Roxas because of being Sora's Nobody and his link with him after DiZ's manipulations. Ventu's case is different because he didn't really died, placing his broken heart (wich was already broken since Vanitas's birth) in Sora's. Xion developping her own heart is comparable to what Xemnas revealed in DDD about Nobodies but i think she already hade her own heart in some ways (yeah she is a clone but she acts like her own person).

Very much things are unclear about Chirithy. Since i don't play to KH X and Unchained, i only know him from Back Cover.

Dark649 He did. He was with the other villains at the Hollow Bastion in KH 1. Also, his plot is actually quite different in nearly all the games he appeared. The only time it is actually completely related to the movie's plot is in KH III and even during this event, his defeat is very different from the movie. Of course he felt into the pit in KH II like he did in the movie but he survived and managed to find his way out.

Another thing about Hades is his resurrection of Auron in KH II. From what we can tell, KH's universe holds Final Fantasy worlds since we see characters from FF VII, VIII and X through the series. The fact that Auron was in the Underworld (basically a location from Disney movie) implies that Hades governs the lost souls of every world in KH universe.
 
Imaginym From what i know about the game, Foretellers indeed fight against the Protagonist.
 
@Img Yes... They even stated twice they needed to get serious to beat him in actuality .... WHich means he's comparable to one Serious / Almost Full Power Forteller, but not comparable to al 6 Fortellers put together (Keep in mind the Forteller who stomped him... I believed it was Ira ... only did so after he fought almost all the other Fortellers, as he was the 2nd to last forteller the Protagonist fought before it was over... SO the protagonist was heavily exhausted)

The reason I believe the Six Dandelion Leaders scale is because the Six Dandelions Leaders helped Sora defeat the Giant Demon Hide (Which scales far > All the Warriors of Light as even the regular demon hides were giving them trouble in the Graveyard before fusing) ... But it's implied Ephemer did it using his own power and connecting them all together, so either way it scales to said Leaders

Not to mention Ephemer's Heartless blatantly fought against Sora Post-Xehanort fight... And I HEAVILY doubt Ephemer is weaker than his heartless.
 
So, I'd bring up on the immortality discussion this tidbit; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvRK6qYKfXY&feature=youtu.be&t=2735

Where Sora takes a lethal hit and, afterward, seems to rewind time a few seconds.

While the trinity command suggests it to be linked to the power of friendship (and thus donald and goofy's presence) it should be noted that it is graphically the same as the common game over screen for sora across every KH title. KH1: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Inrndq2PUyk/hqdefault.jpg KH CoM: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/s-6nxyLkgv8/hqdefault.jpg KH2: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-nSWhJ1dCvI/hqdefault.jpg KH DDD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4oIUWPL9UM

Given the option to continue, it may be interpreted that so long as sora has the will to do so (and possibly a connection to other's hearts / the power of friendship, though this can be used in other games without the direct presence of others.) he can send his heart back a short amount of time canonically to re-do events that would lead to his death.

The ability to retain his memories in such a reset would also be consistent with YX retaining the memory to visit past / future-for-him alterante versions of himself to have them all meet each other in DDD, despite the usual rules of time travel in KH being 1. heart only, and 2. future only. Clearly 2 has exceptions, though 1 seems to be consistent, though it may be that mind/soul/will also can travel in time.
 
@ArkhamDC06: It would still require confusing the two of them. Being Sora's Nobody alone won't help, as Nobodies don't have Hearts; If Chirithy is aware of beings in Dive to the Heart/Station of Awakening, it might be able to distinguish different hearts. And Roxas enters his during his 3rd Day in KH2; After about 361 days of existing.

That's A LOT of time for him to grow a heart of his own.

We'd have to assume Chirithy somehow confuses Roxas for Sora. Also, as it's strongly implied to be Ventus's Chirithy (The ending, Ventus being a Union Leader in UX & having amnesia in BBS....) it might also be familiar enough with Ven's Heart that Ven's Heart wouldn't blur the differences between Sora's Heart & Roxas's Heart enough for them to be easily confused by Chirithy.

I agree it's possible, but I think it should be a "Possibly" for Roxas.

Xion also grew her own Heart to put in her Replica, but we never see a Dive to the Heart for her, & she was originally made from Sora's memories, especially those of Kairi. That & the fact that she grew her Heart means she'd probably be distinct, too.

Given she came into existence after KH1, though, it's possible Chirithy would probably recognize her as Sora (Or as Ven.) & maybe, for any "wandering" of hers, "let it slide".
 
@Evarikitsune: During that sequence, there's a prompt specifically saying to "Press Triangle to call on your bonds of friendship". It's more that than willpower, I'd say.
 
Imanigym It takes a very long time to grow a heart of his own. Apart from Xigbar/Luxu and Axel, all the other members of the original Organization didn't have their own heart at the moment of their death. Xion is a particular case since she is a Replica so it's different for her.

To me, this is more than strongly implied. The ending is pretty clear even if Ventus has lost his memories before. And the confusion is very possible. Since Ventus's heart was in Sora's for almost his entire life (until KH 3) and that Roxas was his Nobodies, even without having a heart he was "influenced" by Ventus (his physical appearence to begin with). So the confusion is understandable, more if you think that Ventus was Chrity's friend and that it would have been more than willing to help his old friend.
 
You don't think 361 Days is enough time for Roxas to grow his own Heart? Despite his repeated showings of emotion? And Xion had almost as much time, & we didn't even see her go to a DttH/SoA.

Yes, Sora, Roxas & Ventus have similar appearances... but not identical. Ventus would have had his Chirithy since becoming a Keyblade Wielder to becoming a Union Leader & still afterwards; I'd think confusing someone for your best friend, when that someone else came into existence centuries afterwards, you still remember them, & when that someone else probably has a different heart, & have a different appearance from your friend... it would be an embarassment to a Chirithy.
 
Imaginym said:
@Evarikitsune: During that sequence, there's a prompt specifically saying to "Press Triangle to call on your bonds of friendship". It's more that than willpower, I'd say.
Click to expand...
However, this does not imply that it requires direct involvement of other parties. At worst, merely their presence. And in the prior examples of the scene, it is merely "continue/try again" that is an option.
 
Imaginym Honestly, I don't really count Roxas and Xion as real members of the Organization since they wre alwas . But yeah, Roxa'About Xion, like i said, since she was Replica, it seems to be different from Nobodies.

Perhaps. But outside their appearence, the fact is that Roxas can be considered as Ventu's Nobody too to some extent. Technically, he is born from two hearts. Even without taking his appearence, we can assume that Ventus had some kind of influence over him
 
Evariskistune We should all agree to say that Sora's main power is Friendship Manipulation XD
 
He could have this ability (Empathic Manipulation). But that doesn't explain the final blow against Xehanort. Could be a pseudo-form of summoning.

Just to say i made a potential profile for Hades (Kingdom Hearts) as a document on my computer. So if it's interesting for someone, i can post it.
 
Go ahead and post it in a blog, that way even the links will be supported to the format of the site.
 
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