Kratos Tier 2-C Downgrade.

[ShivaShakti]

Immeasurable speed flood? lol. But seriously I brought up that argument as more of a joke. It doesn't need to be taken so seriously.

 

[Andika_CL_atmadja]

i believe the flood has different meaning. It came from Ymir bodies. also it stated the flood "threatening all creation"

 

[Zeckels]

Aren't all the nine realms existing in the same place and time?
Realms can be anything from a country, kingdom, or geographical area on a continent.

Tyr's Temple and the World Tree are like essentially an elevator that travels to a different region of the Norse World.

Where are you getting any of this information? In the game, novel, and WOG they all specifically make the difference between regions and entire realms and all state the realms are each their own plane of existences and their own dimension with their own space-time. Please read the blog it's really good and explains most of this quit well.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Yeah Aren't the realms on different branches of the Yggdrasil? It'd make no sense for them to be on the same physical space.

 

[DarkGrath]

There is still one big problem I have with 2-C Kratos personally. Kratos in GOW4 is said to be 4-A. One of the major reasons given for this is because he has grown weaker with age. At most, estimates say that GOW4 takes place no more than a few hundred years after the events of GOW3. With this in mind, how long ago exactly did Cronos overthrow Uranus? I can't quite remember myself, but if it was longer than a few hundred years ago then to assume that Cronos would be as strong as he was before after much aging while Kratos gets significantly weaker with age is a double standard. I might be incorrect about this, but I'm not so sure the scaling works perfectly here. I still think that 2-C Kratos is certainly possible, but in my opinion I still think what we see warrants nothing more than a "4-A, possibly 2-C" tiering or something along those lines.

 

[Hellbeast1]

I mean Kratos is a demigod not a full Blood so it's possible (especially with him not facing strong foes in centuries)

 

[Andytrenom]

Why is young Kratos "2-C likely far higher"? Shouldn't you need to have the possibility of being 2-B to be rated this way?

 

[DarkGrath]

Yeah, and I honestly agree that it is possible. I mention as much in my post. I just don't think it's perfectly solid. Again, Cronos defeated Uranus quite a long time ago, right? At least, if my memory isn't failing me. And we've seen that these characters can get weaker with age. I'm just not so certain that the feat is the best to scale off of, since Crono's is likely weaker by this point by an unknown amount. 4-A is the absolute minimum that GOW1-3 Kratos could be, due to GOW4 Kratos' 4-A tiering and the fact that GOW1-3 Kratos was supposedly stronger. But I'm fully willing to believe that Kratos is stronger, I just genuinely don't think the evidence is as definitive as people are treating it as.

 

[Hellbeast1]

I mean for full blood Gods it doesn't work that way. Zeus abs the Olympian's are stated to be much stronger now then they were back then

 

[DarkGrath]

Oh? That's a good piece of evidence. Zeus states that the Olympian's are stronger than before? Would you mind directing me to where exactly he states that? I'm not doubting you, not at all, I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Hellbeast1]

I'm not sure where it's said but it's on the pages and Kep seems to have claimed that.

 

[DarkGrath]

Eh, I'll see if I can find it.

 

[Kepekley23]

>Flood the realms

I'm almost certain this is a hyperbole.

No, it is not. The Giants even wonder into Jotunheim, which is another realm entirely, because of the floodwaters. And Ymir himself is shaped from a mystical lifeblood that literally embodies creation and chaos, which is what gives him the power to create the 9 realms, according to Mimir, and it's that exact same blood that bursts out and becomes the Flood.

"Flooding the universe with waters not being possible" is irrelevant because that's exactly what happens. Possibility or not - still happened. And no, it's obviously not a 3-A feat. It threatened to destroy the Norse World in its entirety. Why can't the exact same thing that birthed space and time (Ymir's blood) also be able to destroy it?

 

[Kepekley23]

Yeah Aren't the realms on different branches of the Yggdrasil? It'd make no sense for them to be on the same physical space.

Yes. Exact same point as before, exact same debunk. The realms being on the same physical space is merely because of the fact they're all laid on branches of Yggdrasil, which is literally the very next sentence of Freya's statement.

 

[Kepekley23]

I'm not sure where it's said but it's on the pages and Kep seems to have claimed that.

It is based off of a line that Hades says at one point in his fight with Kratos. He states that absorbing Kratos's soul would merely strengthen him, which establishes that Hades gets stronger with Soul Consumption - and as we see when he dies, he's absorbed literally untold thousands of souls, so the Hades that fought in the Great War is weaker than the one who fought Kratos. In the GoW2 lore entry for Poseidon, it states that he is second in power only to Zeus himself, so Poseidon himself must have also grown in strength since the Great War.

Plus, Poseidon pretty much solo'ed the Second Great War just by himself at full power.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Is this still up? I thought Kep debunked mostly everything. Only thing I'm iffy about is infinite speed, but everything else seems fine.

 

[Kepekley23]

> One of the major reasons given for this is because he has grown weaker with age. At most, estimates say that GOW4 takes place no more than a few hundred years after the events of GOW3. With this in mind, how long ago exactly did Cronos overthrow Uranus? I can't quite remember myself, but if it was longer than a few hundred years ago then to assume that Cronos would be as strong as he was before after much aging while Kratos gets significantly weaker with age is a double standard.

We don't know how long ago Cronos overthrew Uranus in the series's timeline, but even then, considering the Gods did not get weaker with time and in fact got stronger, neither should the Titans. Cronos by the time he fought Zeus should be even stronger than he was when he fought Uranus.

Kratos is an exception because he has been stripped off of his Godhood by that time. He is just a normal immortal, with no domains or special powers granted from his Godhood, so it's not as if, say, he would get stronger the more wars broke out in the world, like he did when he was the God of War.

 

[SinsofMan]

In all honesty, I will just concede this right now due to me having a busy week up ahead.

Ill probably read your reply eventually and ill ask you questions about it on discord. @Kepekley and @WindGod.

Not gonna hold this thread in deadlock cuz ╠Âi╠Âd╠ ╠Âr╠Âa╠Ât╠Âh╠Âe╠Âr╠ ╠Âw╠Âr╠Âi╠Ât╠Âe╠ ╠Âf╠Âo╠Âr╠ ╠Âm╠Ây╠ ╠Âb╠Âo╠Âo╠Âk╠ id rather study for my accounting quiz of wednesday.

 

[Kepekley23]

I can agree to downgrading the infinite speed if everyone wishes to.

 

[Andika_CL_atmadja]

I don't have any problem about infinite speed tho.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I agree with removing infinite speed.

Once that's out of the way I think this can be closed unless Matt has more stuff to say.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I think Infinite speed should be kept. Don't see a good reason it should be removed, and either way it's rated "likely" which already means its not 100% certain

 

[Xerkser500]

No, it is not. The Giants even wonder into Jotunheim, which is another realm entirely, because of the floodwaters. And Ymir himself is shaped from a mystical lifeblood that literally embodies creation and chaos, which is what gives him the power to create the 9 realms, according to Mimir, and it's that exact same blood that bursts out and becomes the Flood.

"Flooding the universe with waters not being possible" is irrelevant because that's exactly what happens. Possibility or not - still happened. And no, it's obviously not a 3-A feat. It threatened to destroy the Norse World in its entirety. Why can't the exact same thing that birthed space and time (Ymir's blood) also be able to destroy it?

From what im gathering from this response, this special lifeblood that this Ymir was shaped from giving him the ability to create space-times is moreso just a hax that the blood gives him for embodying creation and chaos. Not something thats done through brute pure power/AP.

 

[Kepekley23]

No.

• "In the beginning, there was Ginnungagap, the great void. There were no realms yet. There was Fire, and there was Ice, and there in the void they met and produced . . . more than water - the mystic life-blood of something entirely new. From this water, Ymir took form, and became a being of pure creation and chaos, mother and father to all that came after. Every god, man and beast came first from Ymir's flesh."

The primordial forces of Fire & Ice met in Ginnungagap. There were no realms yet when that happened. Then Ymir appeared from said water, and created all the realms from his body, as well as every life-form within said realms.

It would be a double standard to try and treat something physically done by Ymir as "hax". It isn't.

 

[Xerkser500]

Then you should have started with that instead of what you said before because what you said earlier gave me the impression it was a hax ability.

However, im curious on the "Every god, man and beast came first from Ymir's flesh" part. How can life-forms come first before the realms do?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Kepekley here.

 

[Kepekley23]

Then you should have started with that instead of what you said before because what you said earlier gave me the impression it was a hax ability.

However, im curious on the "Every god, man and beast came first from Ymir's flesh" part. How can life-forms come first before the realms do?

But they didn't?

That is just a way of saying that, before the first Gods and People had sex with each other to create other Gods/Humans, Ymir spawned the first array/group of gods. Not that they were created first before anything else. Afterall, the first deity created by Ymir (Surtr) was born when the realms already existed, since Mimir states that Surtr was born from a volcano in Muspelheim, so it isn't possible for Ymir to have created all the gods and people before he created the realms.

 

[Xerkser500]

Where in what you said before implies that?

The quote you brought in literally said "Every god, man, and beast came first from Ymir's flesh". The same flesh your saying creation in general came from. Whether the gods came first before people had nothing to do with my question.

Im asking how gods, people and beasts in general can come before these realms were created?

 

[Kepekley23]

> Where in what you said before implies that?

I want to know why you are even reading something like that into the text to begin with. Mimir just made a statement that the gods and people came from Ymir. He isn't saying they came before the realms to begin with.

Regardless we know this is false:

• "Back when Ymir first emerged from Ginnungagap, it was Surtr who followed next. He came from Muspelheim, the fire realm, bringing heat to the young cosmos."

Surtr, the first of the gods after Ymir, was born from the primordial fires of the Realm of Muspelheim. Thus the realms must have logically been created first.

 

[Silvervigilant]

Im neutral on the Tier 2-C downgrade, but i agree about the speed downgrade

 

[DarkGrath]

Im neutral on the Tier 2-C downgrade, but i agree about the speed downgrade

Agreed on my part.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

While the speed should be downgraded, I am personally fine with current tiers staying.

 

[KLOL506]

I'm okay with the tiers being as they are. Speed downgrades don't seem like they'll hurt anyone so let it be.

 

[Hellbeast1]

What would we downgrade speed to tho?

 

[KLOL506]

Massively FTL+, apparently.

 

[Hellbeast1]

Seems good (Infinite never sat right with me)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm still siding with Kep; Infinite speed seemed pretty iffy to me, but the Tiers I still think are good.

 

[GabrielMaster721]

Small Planet/Planet and Massively FTL+ is fine IMO, but I'm not the one to decide so whatever.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Even MFTL+ is not good imo, unless you consider the game, comic, novel or any other media with Kratos a misrepresentation of his actual speed.

 

[GabrielMaster721]

OK, ngl, I said I'm fine with MFTL+ Kratos just to not get ambushed. To be completely honest, I've only ever considered Kratos being baseline FTL, MFTL+ feels kinda out of place for me.