The Great Odyssean Quest to Downgrade God of War ⌈Part 2⌋

[Pepsimanslover_69]

What's that got to do with Kratos' weather manipulation, though?

It's a trait from Atreus's Godhood, something directly inherited from Kratos himself.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Hellbeast the lore and legends book has some statements that implies that because Baldur died, it caused fimbulwinter to arrive.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

That's true, but when Kratos arrived to the Norse Realms a long winter akin to Fimbulwinter froze the Norsen Realms. This a 150 years before Baldur's death.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Honestly the weather stuff just reads like the typical "bad omen" cliche and not them being the ones to manipulate it to cause it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Hellbeast]

@Hellbeast the lore and legends book has some statements that implies that because Baldur died, it caused fimbulwinter to arrive.

Yeah i know; I’m saying nature reacting to events of significance seems to be the logic behind it

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

Driven mad by the furies.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

I'll go over the Furies stuff, as it's more complex.

So, what do the Furies do to those who run from their oaths? Well, they infect their mind with madness.

This is showcased by the following,
"The Furies infect your mind because you run from your oath to Ares"
"My time grows short. To be free from the madness that inflicts you, you must defeat those who hold your bond with Ares"

Now, some of you might be asking, why did I bold the word bond? Well, it's simple, the bond itself is a magical manifestation of Kratos's oath with Ares, which when broken, caused Kratos's mind to suffer said madness, this effect being seemingly being passive.

"Lord Ares still holds your bond.
This cannot be.
Before you killed them, my mothers once again made me your oathkeeper. For you to be free, I must die by your hand.
I do not understand.
If you do not release me, my father will retain power over you but even worse, I will live in eternal torture.
I have spilled enough innocent blood.
There is no other way Spartan, destroy the oath, kill Ares, have your revenge."
gotta say, Orkos is one of the best characters in Gow.

For Kratos to be free from the Oath's effects, he needs to destroy it, because as long as it exists, he'll never be free. Which is actually what we see, as after Kratos destroys the Oath, he's immediately free.

Now, if this is the case, how can anyone claim that Kratos resists the Furies's ability? Doesn't he need to break his oath? Not exactly.

Kratos, by stilling his mind, can remove the Oath's ill effects from his mind. As showcased by the following,

"Use these items to still your mind Kratos, do not illusion deceive you. Have the visions ceased?
I see only you.
Good. You need this skill for the path ahead."

Now, before anyone is wondering, the items in question are simply remnants of Kratos's wife and daughter which hold sentimental value to Kratos, they are not supernaturally removing these effects from his mind.

Admittedly, this resistance is not passive, it's something Kratos still needs to do actively.

"But isn't there statements of Kratos becoming insane?"
Somewhat.

Driven mad by the furies.

While this is true, this is after Kratos's second defeat at the hands of the Furies, in which they delve into his very soul(Watch until 16:32).

Regardless, he clearly isn't as affected as other prisoners, heck he overpowers and sees through it as seen in his fights with them.

Now, time for my daily pepsi intake.

 

[Deagonx]

Admittedly, this resistance is not passive, it's something Kratos still needs to do actively.

That's not merely "not passive" it just very directly isn't a resistance. At best we could give him Illusion Resistance with equipment.

Regardless, he clearly isn't as affected as other prisoners,

This is just one prisoner, and he describes himself as the first person the Furies took captive there. It's normal for Kratos to be affected less than him.

Everything simply points to them driving Kratos "mad" with torture and being able to inflict illusions on him. Neither are madness manip, and he only resists the latter with equipment.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

That's not merely "not passive" it just very directly isn't a resistance. At best we could give him Illusion Resistance with equipment.

How?

 

[Deagonx]

How?

Because he is explicitly affected by it until he is given the items to block the illusions, and even prior to this Kratos is very clearly not going insane, he's simply afflicted with illusions.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Because he is explicitly affected by it until he is given the items to block the illusions, and even prior to this Kratos is very clearly not going insane, he's simply afflicted with illusions.

The items are nothing but a way for Kratos to remember his family, it's a way for Kratos to still his mind.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Everything simply points to them driving Kratos "mad" with torture and being able to inflict illusions on him. Neither are madness manip, and he only resists the latter with equipment.

Deangox, it's made pretty clear that Kratos had madness infected on him in a Supernatural way.

This is showcased by the following,
"The Furies infect your mind because you run from your oath to Ares"
"My time grows short. To be free from the madness that inflicts you, you must defeat those who hold your bond with Ares"

Also, can you please stop your weird habit of taking a part of my arguments to address and then claim things that I actively refute before in my past post without addressing the refutations themselves.

 

[Deagonx]

Deangox, it's made pretty clear that Kratos had madness infected on him in a Supernatural way.

Pespi, it's made pretty clear that this did not occur.

Also, can you please stop your weird habit of taking a part of my arguments to address and then claim things that I actively refute before in my past post without addressing the refutations themselves.

Even prior to this Kratos is very clearly not going insane, he's simply afflicted with illusions.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Pespi, it's made pretty clear that this did not occur.

I'm sorry, how? The statements shown make it clear that Kratos's mind has been tampered with to the point of madness. Can you address the evidence itself?

 

[Deagonx]

The statements shown make it clear that Kratos's mind has tampered with to the point of madness. Can you address the evidence itself?

Pepis, I already have:

Because he is explicitly affected by it until he is given the items to block the illusions, and even prior to this Kratos is very clearly not going insane, he's simply afflicted with illusions.

Everything simply points to them driving Kratos "mad" with torture and being able to inflict illusions on him. Neither are madness manip, and he only resists the latter with equipment.

Torturing someone to the point of insanity isn't even madness manipulation, so, absolutely agreed.

That video doesn't demonstrate madness manipulation. The fact that this guy went crazy doesn't mean the Furies used magic madness powers to inflict it on him. He could have just gone crazy from his imprisonment normally.

All he says is that they "drive people insane" which the scans already say they do via torture. I don't know why you wrote "mind manipulation" in the hyperlink.

Plus the fact that he needed to go break his bond with Ares to stop the illusions is very direct counter-evidence to him resisting the Furies' powers.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Because he is explicitly affected by it until he is given the items to block the illusions, and even prior to this Kratos is very clearly not going insane, he's simply afflicted with illusions.

I already addressed this.

The items are nothing but a way for Kratos to remember his family, it's a way for Kratos to still his mind.

Pepis, I already have:

Literally every thing you quoted is immediately addressed by the two statements I showed,

This is showcased by the following,
"The Furies infect your mind because you run from your oath to Ares"
"My time grows short. To be free from the madness that inflicts you, you must defeat those who hold your bond with Ares"

And most were not even addressing the current points I made.

Plus the fact that he needed to go break his bond with Ares to stop the illusions is very direct counter-evidence to him resisting the Furies' powers.

Deagnox, I brought this point myself and showcased that was not the reasoning behind the resistance.

Now, if this is the case, how can anyone claim that Kratos resists the Furies's ability? Doesn't he need to break his oath? Not exactly.

Kratos, by stilling his mind, can remove the Oath's ill effects from his mind. As showcased by the following,

"Use these items to still your mind Kratos, do not illusion deceive you. Have the visions ceased?
I see only you.
Good. You need this skill for the path ahead."

Now, before anyone is wondering, the items in question are simply remnants of Kratos's wife and daughter which hold sentimental value to Kratos, they are not supernaturally removing these effects from his mind.

Admittedly, this resistance is not passive, it's something Kratos still needs to do actively.

.

 

[Deagonx]

I already addressed this.

Pipse, no you didn't. If your contribution moving forward is to simply assert that you've addressed things and that I have not, then this discussion serves no purpose.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Pipse, no you didn't. If your contribution moving forward is to simply assert that you've addressed things and that I have not, then this discussion serves no purpose.

I'm sorry, in what way didn't I?
This is your counter argument,

That's not merely "not passive" it just very directly isn't a resistance. At best we could give him Illusion Resistance with equipment.

This is my response to it, that you still didn't address.

The items are nothing but a way for Kratos to remember his family, it's a way for Kratos to still his mind.

How haven't I addressed this?
And do I have to ask again? Please stop taking a minor part of my post out of context to claim something I address in the same post. Like, seriously, it's getting annoying.

 

[Robespierre_Isidore]

The furries

I think I misread that

Weather Manipulation

Agree get rid of that.

Resistance to Sleep Manipulation

No proof of the ability and it's subsequent resistance? get rid of it.

Resistance to Madness Manipulation

Remove this because as you pointed out contradictions.

 

[Hasty12345]

Are you guys purposefully misspelling each others names?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Pipse, no you didn't. If your contribution moving forward is to simply assert that you've addressed things and that I have not, then this discussion serves no purpose.

We've passed grace for this thread, am I good to apply the changes?

 

[Theglassman12]

if by the changes you mean the weather hax stuff then sure, but the sleep and madness stuff is still being discussed so until those are done and have a unanimous staff vote, those don't get changed.

 

[Deagonx]

We've passed grace for this thread, am I good to apply the changes?

I don't think the sleep manip matter has a sufficient amount of votes, but I asked DarkGrath said she would respond to my most recent comment about it and I said if she still was not persuaded then we would just drop that matter for now and apply the two that were accepted, but she's sick at the moment. It's up to you how you want to proceed.

However, there are sufficient votes for weather and madness manip.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I don't think the sleep manip matter has a sufficient amount of votes, but I asked DarkGrath said she would respond to my most recent comment about it and I said if she still was not persuaded then we would just drop that matter for now and apply the two that were accepted, but she's sick at the moment. It's up to you how you want to proceed.

However, there are sufficient votes for weather and madness manip.

I can wait, in that case. Would it be possible to call other staff here, or do they not have interest in evaluating GoW threads?

 

[Deagonx]

I can wait, in that case. Would it be possible to call other staff here, or do they not have interest in evaluating GoW threads?

I can ask a couple more.

@Mr. Bambu @CrimsonStarFallen @Firestorm808

 

[Robespierre_Isidore]

they not have interest

They might, but they might also be fatigued, after all this is one of many for the Sisyphean quest of an accurate GoW hax section.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Planck69 @AbaddonTheDisappointment @KingTempest Your input on the madness and sleep hax stuff would be appreciated.

 

[Omnificence]

Is this a scan from the games or the novels? Just wondering.

 

[Theglassman12]

The lore and legends book.

 

[Firestorm808]

The proposal sounds about right.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I can ask a couple more.

@Mr. Bambu @CrimsonStarFallen @Firestorm808

Yeah, I'll get to this (assuming it doesn't take off without me again).

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Because he is explicitly affected by it until he is given the items to block the illusions, and even prior to this Kratos is very clearly not going insane, he's simply afflicted with illusions.

Ig it could work then

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

So, what do the Furies do to those who run from their oaths? Well, they infect their mind with madness.

This is showcased by the following,
"The Furies infect your mind because you run from your oath to Ares"
"My time grows short. To be free from the madness that inflicts you, you must defeat those who hold your bond with Ares"

Now, some of you might be asking, why did I bold the word bond? Well, it's simple, the bond itself is a magical manifestation of Kratos's oath with Ares, which when broken, caused Kratos's mind to suffer said madness, this effect being seemingly being passive.

"Lord Ares still holds your bond.
This cannot be.
Before you killed them, my mothers once again made me your oathkeeper. For you to be free, I must die by your hand.
I do not understand.
If you do not release me, my father will retain power over you but even worse, I will live in eternal torture.
I have spilled enough innocent blood.
There is no other way Spartan, destroy the oath, kill Ares, have your revenge."
gotta say, Orkos is one of the best characters in Gow.

For Kratos to be free from the Oath's effects, he needs to destroy it, because as long as it exists, he'll never be free. Which is actually what we see, as after Kratos destroys the Oath, he's immediately free.

Now, if this is the case, how can anyone claim that Kratos resists the Furies's ability? Doesn't he need to break his oath? Not exactly.

Kratos, by stilling his mind, can remove the Oath's ill effects from his mind. As showcased by the following,

"Use these items to still your mind Kratos, do not illusion deceive you. Have the visions ceased?
I see only you.
Good. You need this skill for the path ahead."

All the evidence presented above, is only through the illusion of the furies, they do not mind control you into insanity. They do not have madness manipulation.:
"You waver from sound mind to illusion in the beat of a heart.."
" Your thoughts are clouded and your mind conflict warrior. I can feel it...How can I defeat the furies, when all I see is illusion"


"While this is true, this is after Kratos's second defeat at the hands of the Furies, in which they delve into his very soul(Watch until 16:32)"

Not relevant, there is no soul manipulation shown here. It only mention broken warrior soul, from what we see from the game, this is not literally soul manipulation, "soul" in this context means something else.

"Regardless, he clearly isn't as affected as other prisoners, heck he overpowers and sees through it as seen in his fights with them."

The first evidence you provided, never states or proves say prisoner, is mad. He just keeps record. In the second evidence, that is not overpowering anything, the illusion of the furies are obvious for kratos to break apart (he doesn't overpower anything), he gets fooled by the illusion only until he sees the weird ring on that spartan. It is a common recurring thing, when the queen of the fury transforms into his deceased wife, he gets fooled by such illusion but only discover it's not true upon seeing the ring on the furie finger. In the second evidence you gave it's very easy not to get fooled by such nonsense illusions, she litteraly transforms into that spartan "king" that kratos already saw threw before, that fury later literally transform into kratos himself after transforming into that spartan "king". And that is all in context when that fury's pet was killed by kratos using the eyes of truth, you can see their illusion around the surrounding stops.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

All the evidence presented above, is only through the illusion of the furies, they do not mind control you into insanity. They do not have madness manipulation.:
"You waver from sound mind to illusion in the beat of a heart.."
" Your thoughts are clouded and your mind conflict warrior. I can feel it...How can I defeat the furies, when all I see is illusion"

Not only is this just not a counter to the above, but it doesn't contradict anything at all.

Not relevant, there is no soul manipulation shown here. It only mention broken warrior soul, from what we see from the game, this is not literally soul manipulation, "soul" in this context means something else.

The mind by default is a part of the soul in God of war, and it's made clear that each Fury attacks a certain aspect of existence.

The first evidence you provided, never states or proves say prisoner, is mad. He just keeps record

It's clear that's he's insane, you don't need everything to be spoon fed to you, right? Your intelligent enough that the game doesn't need to tell you he's insane.

In the second evidence, that is not overpowering anything, the illusion of the furies are obvious for kratos to break apart (he doesn't overpower anything), he gets fooled by the illusion only until he sees the weird ring on that spartan. It is a common recurring thing, when the queen of the fury transforms into his deceased wife, he gets fooled by such illusion but only discover it's not true upon seeing the ring on the furie finger. In the second evidence you gave it's very easy not to get fooled by such nonsense illusions, she litteraly transforms into that spartan "king" that kratos already saw threw before, that fury later literally transform into kratos himself after transforming into that spartan "king". And that is all in context when that fury's pet was killed by kratos using the eyes of truth, you can see their illusion around the surrounding stops.

You yourself said that Kratos can't help but believe in such illusions, the fact that's he's able to see through it is just as a feat.

Regardless, it's not the main reasoning behind his resistance.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Neutral on resistance to sleep manip and I'm fine with removing madness manip

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Neutral on resistance to sleep manip and I'm fine with removing madness manip

Do you have an opinion on weather manipulation, or should I just put you down as neutral for that as well?

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Do you have an opinion on weather manipulation, or should I just put you down as neutral for that as well?

Yeah neutral on that as well

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

In that case, here's the current vote tally.

Agree: Deagonx, Maverick_Zero_X, Firestorm808, Theglassman12 (Weather Manipulation), DarkGrath (Weather Manipulation/Resistance to Madness Manipulation), AbaddonTheDisappointment (Resistance to Madness Manipulation)
Disagree: Theglassman12 (Resistance to Sleep Manipulation/Resistance to Madness Manipulation)
Neutral: DarkGrath (Resistance to Sleep Manipulation), AbaddonTheDisappointment (Weather Manipulation/Resistance to Sleep Manipulation)

 

[Mr. Bambu]

• Weather Manipulation: clearly Fujiwara is responsible for 9/11, someone should report that. In other news, I think they probably meant something with this, but it doesn't have any clear implication of being Kratos' doing, so remove it.
• Sleep Manipulation Resistance: Self-explanatory, I have no complaints with removing it, kill it.
• Madness Manipulation Resistance: Similarly extremely straightforward. Nuke the ability from orbit, its the only way to be sure.