Kratos Tier 2-C Downgrade.

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I agree with Kep on the subsonic bit, Kratos should be at least Hypersonic.

 

[Kepekley23]

Anyway, all of this derail aside...any further counter-arguments to MFTL+?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Anyway, all of this derail aside...any further counter-arguments to MFTL+?

I would perfer not using the Primordial feat for the primary speed rating. I feel like while the Ascension prologue can be deduced to be showcasing the creation of the universe, the way its depicted is highly romantic and changes perspectives and scales rapidly.

Since there is other feats, could we use those instead?

 

[Kepekley23]

Heavily disagree. The Primordials can change their size as they wish to. Just because they do just that doesn't mean their cosmic fight is suddenly unusable as a speed feat. It's something that actually happened in the series, so it's what we should use to scale.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Heavily disagree. The Primordials can change their size as they wish to. Just because they do just that doesn't mean their cosmic fight is suddenly unusable as a speed feat. It's what actually happened, so it's what we should use to scale.

Couple of things:

• Can you source them size-shifting? We don't see them actively change sizes in the intro.

• Timeframe is still an issue. With the cut to Earth and plenty of cuts to different fights and events we don't really get an idea of how fast things are happening. Do we have a timeframe for how fast the universe was created outside of the intro? If not, is the intro really still that reliable considering the above point? It's called a 'War', I feel like it being only a few minutes long in totality is really stretching our assumptions considering cinematic time.

• If they do shift sizes, do we assume they maintain the same speeds that they have in their cosmic-sized forms? For example, a human downscaled to the size of an ant wouldn't still be able to run around at average human speed.

 

[Kepekley23]

> Can you source them size-shifting?

Sure. Gaia, who was born during their war, showed the ability to size-shift, growing large enough that a small island (a couple hundred meters across) was no more than a bump on her shoulder while she was submerged under-water, which compares to the Primordials's scaled-down size of dwarving mountains, nd then being small enough that Kratos was about as big as her nose, and then about as large as Cronos (who is 500m tall).

> Timeframe is still an issue. With the cut to Earth and plenty of cuts to different fights and events we don't really get an idea of how fast things are happening

We do get a timeframe, right in the very beginning of the intro, where we see them attacking each other.

> f they do shift sizes, do we assume they maintain the same speeds that they have in their cosmic-sized forms?

If they maintain the same power they held in their cosmic-sied forms, then assuming they maintain the same speed is what logically follows.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

> Can you source them size-shifting? Sure. Gaia, who was born during their war, showed the ability to size-shift, growing large enough that a small island (a couple hundred meters across) was no more than a bump on her shoulder while she was submerged under-water, and then being small enough that Kratos was about as big as her nose, and then about as large as Cronos (who is 500m tall).

Okay, thanks.

> We do get a timeframe, right in the very beginning of the intro, where we see them attacking each other.

I'm saying that it's inconsistent and takes a lot of jumps later on, which puts into question the validity of the first clip. Again, is there any statement of how long the War of the Primordials/Creation of the Universe is in other materials, or is this literally all we have to work with?

>
If they maintain the same power they held in their cosmic-sied forms, then assuming they maintain the same speed is what logically follows.

Why would we scale power alongside speed? Don't we rate those two separately?

 

[Kepekley23]

> I'm saying that it's inconsistent and takes a lot of jumps later on, which puts into question the validity of the first clip. Again, is there any statement of how look the War of the Primordials/Creation of the Universe in other materials, or is this literally all we have to work with?

What inconsistency? Their size isn't an inconsistency, as I explained above. And what jumps? Can you explain those apparent inconsistencies?

Yes, we do have statements of the creation of the universe, namely that Uranus was responsible - which I have just been about repeating again and again for this whole thread. But as far as putting visuals to it, yes, this is all we have. Why should we need anything else? The intro by itself is very straightforward and clear-cut.

> Why would we scale power to speed? Don't we rate those two separately?

If their overall power remains unchanged despite their change in size and mass, there is absolutely no reason to assume their speed would be affected either, since it's the same principle. That should be the common assumption. But, aside from that, we can compare the Primordials to the Titans and Olympians, whose overall speed was, if anything, better when they were smaller as opposed to their Giant forms.

 

[Spawn888]

It greatly depends on the speed. It would be believable if he is FTL in reaction time, not movement or travel speed. Not trying to be funny, but I've seen far greater speed feats from the Flash than Kratos.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Flash is irrelevant

 

[ShivaShakti]

Anyways we can just downgrade Kratos' speed to "Massively FTL+ Possibly Infinite" if that's fine.

 

[KLOL506]

But he is at that rating LOL

Except an At least exists

 

[SinsofMan]

Anyways we can just downgrade Kratos' speed to "Massively FTL+ Possibly Infinite" if that's fine.

That isn't a downgrade whatsoever.

Half his tiers are that speed and the other half is the exact same rating except with 'Likely'.

A solid MFTL+ is fine with me.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Anyways we can just downgrade Kratos' speed to "Massively FTL+ Possibly Infinite" if that's fine.

No. No "possibly". No infinite at all.

 

[KLOL506]

Just MFTL+ is okay.

 

[Spawn888]

To you its irrelevant, but I'm making a point. There is hardly any feats to pit Kratos at such a level of speed. We know well that Kratos is holding back, but its mainly his anger. Even after revealing his godhood, he shouldn't be 'holding back' as much anymore. Plus, Baldur is shown to be faster than him in movement speed, but Kratos manages to keep up thanks to reaction time and reflexes. Assuming Baldur is FTL, Kratos should be only FTL in reaction speed alone, not travel or movement speed.

And the possibly Infinite+ is still too ludicrous. I believe we should edit it to Hypersonic with FTL reaction speed/reflexes.

 

[SinsofMan]

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TBH, I am probably one of the few people fine with a solid Infinite speed but then again, I also said High 6-A/5-B/4-A Kratos is more likely then 2-C.

So uh, kindly discredit my opinion on the matter.

I am fine though with a solid MFTL+.

Although I would like it if Kep gave me a solid number tbh, but beggars cant be choosers.

 

[Kepekley23]

Alright, we can probably close this now and apply the Infinite Speed downgrade.

 

[ShivaShakti]

To you its irrelevant, but I'm making a point. There is hardly any feats to pit Kratos at such a level of speed. We know well that Kratos is holding back, but its mainly his anger. Even after revealing his godhood, he shouldn't be 'holding back' as much anymore. Plus, Baldur is shown to be faster than him in movement speed, but Kratos manages to keep up thanks to reaction time and reflexes. Assuming Baldur is FTL, Kratos should be only FTL in reaction speed alone, not travel or movement speed.
And the possibly Infinite+ is still too ludicrous. I believe we should edit it to Hypersonic with FTL reaction speed/reflexes.

Again Flash is irrelevant. Just because he has better feats means nothing and contributes nothing to the thread. This is about God of War, not DC.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I agree with at least Hypersonic and whatever speed is decided for reaction/reflex similar too Black Clover profiles.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Well it's already been decided to keep MFTL+ and just delete Infinite speed

 

[Spawn888]

Hold on, since we are all using Word of God stuff....

https://blog.eu.playstation.com/201...-of-god-of-wars-unforgettable-stranger-fight/

Cory Balrog originally intended to have Baldur throw mountains at Kratos or whatever, but scrapped the idea and has plans for Kratos likely doing a feat like that in the future. Sounds like 7-A tier stuff here, but both Kratos and Baldur are holding back(Baldur took hits on purpose to see if Kratos can hurt him).

And this is 2018 Kratos, and the devs explicitly stated that he was supposed to be worn down or out of training if I remember correctly, hence they cancelled out plans for him busting a mountain. He just much slower and not as strong as he was before. He has regained his groove over the course of the game, but still...he's not at his peak.

Which means that busting a mountain or whatever is when he is serious or going all out like how he was in previous GOW games.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Hold on, since we are all using Word of God stuff....
https://blog.eu.playstation.com/201...-of-god-of-wars-unforgettable-stranger-fight/

Cory Balrog originally intended to have Baldur throw mountains at Kratos or whatever, but scrapped the idea and has plans for Kratos likely doing a feat like that in the future. Sounds like 7-A tier stuff here, but both Kratos and Baldur are holding back(Baldur took hits on purpose to see if Kratos can hurt him). So if they go all out, its likely Island or Continent level.

This also really doesn't mean anything. If they are holding back as you claim, then this doesn't warrant a downgrade, as we know it's not their full power.

 

[Zeckels]

Why would that warrant a downgrade at all? Just cause they were going to throw mountains must mean they're only mountain level now?

 

[ShivaShakti]

^^

That would be like downgrading Goku in GT to Building level because he struggled to lift one.

 

[Spawn888]

^^
That would be like downgrading Goku in GT to Building level because he struggled to lift one.

Depends. Most if not all DB characters use Ki or energy to destroy planets. Not pure strength and there is a difference between Striking and Lifting Strength. However, Dragon Ball GT is irrevelant and not canon to begin with. So lets stay on point now. If the Word of God says it, its valid and true.

 

[Spawn888]

Hold on, since we are all using Word of God stuff....
https://blog.eu.playstation.com/201...-of-god-of-wars-unforgettable-stranger-fight/

Cory Balrog originally intended to have Baldur throw mountains at Kratos or whatever, but scrapped the idea and has plans for Kratos likely doing a feat like that in the future. Sounds like 7-A tier stuff here, but both Kratos and Baldur are holding back(Baldur took hits on purpose to see if Kratos can hurt him). So if they go all out, its likely Island or Continent level.

This also really doesn't mean anything. If they are holding back as you claim, then this doesn't warrant a downgrade, as we know it's not their full power.

Oh my apologies. I typed that up wrong.

What I meant to type is that originally Cory intended to make Kratos and Baldur have an all out fight to where they bust mountains and whatever, but scrapped the idea because he wanted to make a GOW where Kratos is rusty, tired, and 'weaker' than he was before.

So this means SOMETHING. And this is the man who gave us God of War 4. We can't ignore this.

 

[ShivaShakti]

^^
That would be like downgrading Goku in GT to Building level because he struggled to lift one.

Depends. Most if not all DB characters use Ki or energy to destroy planets. Not pure strength and there is a difference between Striking and Lifting Strength.

Lifting something on this site can translate to AP. For example holding the weight of the sky is considered Island Level. And DB characters use that Ki as pure strength. Goku and Beerus nearly destroyed the universe just by clashing their fist, they didn't need to fire any Ki beams.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Hold on, since we are all using Word of God stuff....
https://blog.eu.playstation.com/201...-of-god-of-wars-unforgettable-stranger-fight/

Cory Balrog originally intended to have Baldur throw mountains at Kratos or whatever, but scrapped the idea and has plans for Kratos likely doing a feat like that in the future. Sounds like 7-A tier stuff here, but both Kratos and Baldur are holding back(Baldur took hits on purpose to see if Kratos can hurt him). So if they go all out, its likely Island or Continent level.

This also really doesn't mean anything. If they are holding back as you claim, then this doesn't warrant a downgrade, as we know it's not their full power.

Oh my apologies. I typed that up wrong.
What I meant to type is that originally Cory intended to make Kratos and Baldur have an all out fight to where they bust mountains and whatever, but scrapped the idea because he wanted to make a GOW where Kratos is rusty, tired, and 'weaker' than he was before.

So this means SOMETHING. And this is the man who gave us God of War 4. We can't ignore this.

Still doesn't mean anything, and you seem to be grasping at sraws here.

They many feats that are far Higher than 7-A, and using this feat to define their "Peak" would be blatantly ignoring all other feats in the series

 

[ShivaShakti]

In the Elder Scrolls series Vivec stops a meteor midair, and we don't use that to define his strength, as he has many other feats and statements that shows he scales to the Daedra, and later gets CHIM, far surpassing them. You don't just get to use a low end feat and ignore all the other feats, that would be blatant bias.

 

[Spawn888]

Hold on, since we are all using Word of God stuff....
https://blog.eu.playstation.com/201...-of-god-of-wars-unforgettable-stranger-fight/

Cory Balrog originally intended to have Baldur throw mountains at Kratos or whatever, but scrapped the idea and has plans for Kratos likely doing a feat like that in the future. Sounds like 7-A tier stuff here, but both Kratos and Baldur are holding back(Baldur took hits on purpose to see if Kratos can hurt him). So if they go all out, its likely Island or Continent level.

This also really doesn't mean anything. If they are holding back as you claim, then this doesn't warrant a downgrade, as we know it's not their full power.

Oh my apologies. I typed that up wrong.
What I meant to type is that originally Cory intended to make Kratos and Baldur have an all out fight to where they bust mountains and whatever, but scrapped the idea because he wanted to make a GOW where Kratos is rusty, tired, and 'weaker' than he was before.

So this means SOMETHING. And this is the man who gave us God of War 4. We can't ignore this.

Still doesn't mean anything, and you seem to be grasping at sraws here.

They many feats that are far Higher than 7-A, and using this feat to define their "Peak" would be blatantly ignoring all other feats in the series

That's funny. We use guides, books, statements in game, and Word of God to label Kratos as a Low Multiversal Being when clearly he hasn't shown good evidence of him being at that level or moving at MFTL and Infinite+. Holding back, yeah...but he shouldn't be holding back anymore of his power now that Atreus knows what he is and teach his son how to run on water or some godly stuff.

Yet here, I am using a statement from Cory Balrog who originally intended to have Kratos bust mountains but scrapped that idea for a later sequel because he wanted a Kratos that is holding back or rather not at his full peak in this game, heavily implying that Kratos and Baldur were originally intended to go all out. But we decide to ignore that and say it doesn't mean anything.

I fail to grasp your reasoning, my friend.

 

[Spawn888]

In the Elder Scrolls series Vivec stops a meteor midair, and we don't use that to define his strength, as he has many other feats and statements that shows he scales to the Daedra, and later gets CHIM, far surpassing them. You don't just get to use a low end feat and ignore all the other feats, that would be blatant bias.

I will quote what you said before to me about Flash. Elder Scrolls and Vivec are irrelevent here. I'm taking your advice and staying on topic. I strongly suggest you do the same please.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Hold on, since we are all using Word of God stuff....
https://blog.eu.playstation.com/201...-of-god-of-wars-unforgettable-stranger-fight/

Cory Balrog originally intended to have Baldur throw mountains at Kratos or whatever, but scrapped the idea and has plans for Kratos likely doing a feat like that in the future. Sounds like 7-A tier stuff here, but both Kratos and Baldur are holding back(Baldur took hits on purpose to see if Kratos can hurt him). So if they go all out, its likely Island or Continent level.

This also really doesn't mean anything. If they are holding back as you claim, then this doesn't warrant a downgrade, as we know it's not their full power.

Oh my apologies. I typed that up wrong.
What I meant to type is that originally Cory intended to make Kratos and Baldur have an all out fight to where they bust mountains and whatever, but scrapped the idea because he wanted to make a GOW where Kratos is rusty, tired, and 'weaker' than he was before.

So this means SOMETHING. And this is the man who gave us God of War 4. We can't ignore this.

Still doesn't mean anything, and you seem to be grasping at sraws here.
They many feats that are far Higher than 7-A, and using this feat to define their "Peak" would be blatantly ignoring all other feats in the series

That's funny. We use guides, books, statements in game, and Word of God to label Kratos as a Low Multiversal Being when clearly he hasn't shown good evidence of him being at that level or moving at MFTL and Infinite+. Holding back, yeah...but he shouldn't be holding back anymore of his power now that Atreus knows what he is and teach his son how to run on water or some godly stuff.
Yet here, I am using a statement from Cory Balrog who originally intended to have Kratos bust mountains but scrapped that idea for a later sequel because he wanted a Kratos that is holding back or rather not at his full peak in this game, heavily implying that Kratos and Baldur were originally intended to go all out. But we decide to ignore that and say it doesn't mean anything.

I fail to grasp your reasoning, my friend.

Spawn: Uses a word of god statement, countless statments and guides, to label Kratos at Low Multiversal and gives everyone hell for it.

Also Spawn: Uses a word of god statement to downplay Kratos to mountain level.


This is blatant hypocrisy at it's finest. So we can't use word of god to help justify Low Multiversal Kratos, but its okay to use it in order to downgrade him? 10/10 logic.

 

[Spawn888]

Hold on, since we are all using Word of God stuff....
https://blog.eu.playstation.com/201...-of-god-of-wars-unforgettable-stranger-fight/

Cory Balrog originally intended to have Baldur throw mountains at Kratos or whatever, but scrapped the idea and has plans for Kratos likely doing a feat like that in the future. Sounds like 7-A tier stuff here, but both Kratos and Baldur are holding back(Baldur took hits on purpose to see if Kratos can hurt him). So if they go all out, its likely Island or Continent level.

This also really doesn't mean anything. If they are holding back as you claim, then this doesn't warrant a downgrade, as we know it's not their full power.

Oh my apologies. I typed that up wrong.
What I meant to type is that originally Cory intended to make Kratos and Baldur have an all out fight to where they bust mountains and whatever, but scrapped the idea because he wanted to make a GOW where Kratos is rusty, tired, and 'weaker' than he was before.

So this means SOMETHING. And this is the man who gave us God of War 4. We can't ignore this.

Still doesn't mean anything, and you seem to be grasping at sraws here.
They many feats that are far Higher than 7-A, and using this feat to define their "Peak" would be blatantly ignoring all other feats in the series

That's funny. We use guides, books, statements in game, and Word of God to label Kratos as a Low Multiversal Being when clearly he hasn't shown good evidence of him being at that level or moving at MFTL and Infinite+. Holding back, yeah...but he shouldn't be holding back anymore of his power now that Atreus knows what he is and teach his son how to run on water or some godly stuff.
Yet here, I am using a statement from Cory Balrog who originally intended to have Kratos bust mountains but scrapped that idea for a later sequel because he wanted a Kratos that is holding back or rather not at his full peak in this game, heavily implying that Kratos and Baldur were originally intended to go all out. But we decide to ignore that and say it doesn't mean anything.

I fail to grasp your reasoning, my friend.

Spawn: Uses a word of god statement, countless statments and guides, to label Kratos at Low Multiversal and gives everyone hell for it.
Also Spawn: Uses a word of god statement to downplay Kratos to mountain level.


This is blatant hypocrisy at it's finest. So we can't use word of god to help justify Low Multiversal Kratos, but its okay to use it in order to downgrade him? 10/10 logic.

This is how Vsbattles Wiki works right? So I'm playing everyone's game here.

If we are okay with statements to validate their tier, then so be it. I'd say downgrade him to this level or possibly Island and have him Hypersonic, with FTL reaction speeds.

Also, lets remain diplomatic and not use hostility with words like hypocrisy please. If we are going to use statements, then go with them then and Cory's intention in GOW 4's direction with Kratos.

 

[DMB_1]

Guys, stop quoting large walls of text.

 

[ShivaShakti]

But you're using a blatantly low end statement when there are coutnless other higher statements, and ignoring those. Secondly Cory Balrog said that would be Baldur and Kratos fighting at max power, he didn't state throwing mountains was the extent of their power it is just something that happens.

 

[Spawn888]

Guys, stop quoting large walls of text.

My apologies, friend.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

It greatly depends on the speed. It would be believable if he is FTL in reaction time, not movement or travel speed. Not trying to be funny, but I've seen far greater speed feats from the Flash than Kratos.

You picked a absolutely terrible example to use.

 

[Spawn888]

Fighting at max power.

Maxium- the greatest or highest amount possible or attained. "the school takes a maximum of 32 students" synonyms: upper limit, limit, utmost, uttermost, greatest, most, extreme, extremity, peak, height, ceiling, top, summit, pinnacle, crest, apex, vertex, apogee, acme, zenith "production levels are near their maximum"

Extent- a point, degree, or limit.

Cory intended to have a battle of gods--gods seriously duking it out and cause environmental destruction. Also, there was an idea of Baldur causing avalanches with his kicks. But again, he chose to have Kratos 'hold back' and Baldur not take things too seriously, meaning they were not fighting seriously as it was originally planned.

 

[Kepekley23]

That's irrelevant to the discussion either way. 7-A Kratos is a ridiculous low-end, and it didn't make it into the game.

Anyway, I'm going out now and will come here later, but this is getting extremely tiresome and repetitive already.