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Kirby Speed and Abilities Concerns

LuckyEmile

LuckyEmile

476
155
Hi everyone.

Kirby is a really great series, I'm sure we can all agree. However, sometimes I feel this site handles the franchise awkwardly. I'm not going to list all my concerns with it, as a few boil down to me simply disagreeing with a conclusion drawn from an interpretation that I can at least see the reasoning to. But I have found some concrete things I'd like to handle right now if that's okay with everyone.

Speed
First of all, there is a feat listed on the Warp Star's profile that I do recall being debunked on-site, but perhaps it was done after approval and thus the counterargument never got noticed. I'm going to be honest, this shouldn't be too much of an issue, as it doesn't really change the rating, but it's best to get lies off of profiles. The sentence in question reads "It travelled from Nutty Noon to Another Dimension in 3 seconds." This refers to a scene in Kirby Adventure Wii (known outside of PAL regions as "Return to Dreamland") where Kirby is about to battle Grand Doomer. Except... Kirby battles Grand Doomer on Popstar. So, there is no point in the game where this feat takes place. To prove it takes place on Popstar, a while back I translated the Japanese pause description for Grand Doomer [As someone who's been studying Japanese for a few years now, I'd like to think I'm a valid source] with some proofs of my translation for skeptics, as well as look to the English pause description for both Grand Doomer and its EX counterpart, which can be found here. And the Grand Doomer used rifts, as seen by the EX pause description, as well as its counterpart in Team Kirby Clash Deluxe's method of arriving in the Dream Kingdom showing rifts are a usual method of transport for them, thus nothing to scale to either. So, yeah, this feat never occurred, so we should remove it. EDIT: I try to make the idea of the battle being on Popstar more clear for sceptics here.

Abilities
This one's pretty simple. I was looking through Kirby's abilities, and found four links (highlighted in gree) take you to Superpower Wiki, and I don't think we do this sort of stuff on this site, so... just wondering if we should remove the links. I also noticed that a few of his abilities are improved by Copy Abilities, which we've made clear by saying both "enhance" [although grammatically, and by how we name abilities, I feel "Enhanced" may be more appropriate) and "Better". I don't tend to see how we make this stuff clear, so... I just wonder what would be best for this sort of thing. Also, a few little issues like lack of spaces and "other Kirby" (as opposed to "another Kirby"/"other Kirbies") also exist, whilst we're on the topic. So... yeah, just a house cleaning activity here. If I can get the all-clear for fixing these, I will, but if a higher up wants to deal with it, I'll just bring it to our attention.


So yeah, that's just some stuff I wanted to bring to the forefront, hope it wasn't too much of an issue.
 
Can someone explain to me how the Warp Star, a vehicle meant for traveling, scales to fighting speed? Genuinely curious with Kirby.
 
His profile makes it clear enough, I guess. Basically, he can fight people who have comparable speed to the Warp Star, as well as being able to pilot it.
 
Piloting it would at best scale to reactions, but if he fights people as fast as it, it's fine.
 
I mean, if it were a plane or something that flies forwards, sure. But this is something he has to fly in all directions and dodges lots of projectiles aimed at it and such... I think it applies to more than just reactions.
 
DMB 1 said:
Can someone explain to me how the Warp Star, a vehicle meant for traveling, scales to fighting speed? Genuinely curious with Kirby.
Click to expand...
Firstly, what Emile said. Meta Knight, Kabula, Dark Mind, and a few others are as fast as it, though the former is the most important. Though, combat and reaction speed are all but one in the same.

There's also just...Kirby Air Ride in general.
 
In Return to Dreamland no Doomer ever appeared in Popstar, only in Another Dimension, and via rifts that the pieces of the Lor created. Grand Doomer's fight takes place in Another Dimension because the background outright shows it to be that place. +Kirby flying outside of the planet into space to go there. The pause description is a contradiction not only due to this, but also for saying that there were Doomers in Popstar.

If anyone wants to add Low Multiversal range in portals to the Doomers via Greater Doomer going into Popstar then I have no opinion on that. But I remind everyone that the portals made by the Lor pieces were rifts in space-time that send to other points of time, here he's using the same rift.

Not sure if Air Ride is canon, but there are 4 final bosses who keep up with the Warp Star as well as Kirby on the ground. +Kabula.
 
The Sphere Doomers were attracted to the Energy Spheres, which had created the dimensional rifts.

So, "Evil Sphere Doomers have come to Planet Popstar" is a way of saying "Sphere Doomers have come to the rifts leading to Pop Star".

So, the Grand Doomer entering one of such rifts must've made that background appear.
 
I'd like to take advantage of this occasion to ask something:

Months ago, I argued that it's impossible to go to another space-time continuum without portals or teleportation to begin with, and someone objected by claiming that many fictional characters ca … What method do they use to do that and how is it clear that Kirby on the Warp Star uses it in that moment?

- - - - -

I have something to say about perception speed, reaction speed and movement speed; but first, my question, please.
 
@Eficiente The background is simply an artistic choice, I guess. Also, can you prove that the game itself is a less reliable source than your interpretation? It explicitly says in both the Japanese and English versions of the game that the battle has taken place on Popstar, and nothing concretely supports the idea it is in Another Dimension. You can't say that because it contradicts your headcanon that the primary canon is wrong, it should be vice versa.

Should the skill scale to all Doomers, or is it just Grand Doomer who showed off this skill? Because they're more of a be-all-end-all that your average Sphere Doomer.
 
You are deliberately ignoring all the context.

  • All Doomers fights are in AD as that's where they live.
  • Kirby flies outside of the planet into space.
  • Lands in a different place in the background that only AD has, and is known for.
We aren't going to ignore all this due to pause descriptions that also contradict other stuff about the Doomers, the main canon is what we see, not my fault if you want to take that as a simply artistic choice.
 
  • The Sphere Doomers take place in AD, that much we know, but that doesn't make it the case for everything. If every fox you met was male, does that mean female foxes don't exist? Nope. The Grand Doomer can go to other locations, and we clearly see it did, hence why it is now on Popstar. It may not have gotten there by its own means, but we see that is it consistently said to be there.
  • Hmm, not necessarily. Nutty Noon's tower is pretty tall, so for it to extend into space isn't too much of a stretch, hence I think the game even wants you to believe it does. And we don't explicitly see him leaving the planet, just fly higher up the tower with a space-like background behind him. And the architecture isn't too different from the tower either, so both the location and pause description seem to be in favour for Popstar.
  • Hmm... well, now we see this isn't the case. As a location explicitly said to be on Popstar has it. It's synonymous with AD, as are Sphere Doomers, so perhaps due to the two being tied they decided to show it to be poetic.
We aren't ignoring them, just seeing that interpreting them one way can lead to false conclusions.

EDIT: The net/web-like pattern is shown to be tied to the Lor Starcutter on the boxart, which is seen in the skies of Popstar as opposed to AD, and funnily enough a rift was created by Energy Spheres, which are needed for the vessel to function, at Nutty Noon's upper floor. As for going into space, well, we see from the former levels that the tower was already doing so, which I touched upon already. So the idea of leaving the planet, if that's what Kirby is doing, is what Nutty Noon's theme is anyway, as opposed to being a way to signify Kirby is going somewhere new.
 
@LuckyEmile

  • As pointed out in my first comment, the fights with the Doomers have so far been in AD, and they continued to be there for the rest of the game. This was brought for context, but if you don't care that much about context itself then just ignore the point. No need at all for that response to it.
Universal travel
  • False. Kirby went to the top of the tower, then to the floating platforms above it, then to the Warp Star above that and then ascended even higher into space. Don't ignore how all the times in the game that Kirby goes to AD via rifts he ends up in places that mirrors were he was before, there is no reason for this to not be the case here. Idk how the architecture>the background.
  • Read the above.
You guys have no real evidence for this. As this is not the first time it's brought up I'll have to start making a list about it.
 
@Eficiente: False. Imagine a balcony. Below it is the rest of the tower, above... nothing. Beside it, however, the tower continues to rise, but as far as the balcony is concerned, nothing is above it. There is nothing to say this analogy cannot apply to Nutty Noon, as we see that it does indeed continue higher, where the arena for the fight is located. And we know it's Nutty Noon because we're told so.

Also, I can ignore all the hay in a haystack if I'm challenged to find a needle in said haystack. It doesn't concern my challenge. Now, I'm not going to actually ignore them, but as I said in an edit, we can see the net/web-like background can be found elsewhere than AD, and this case also helps supply some more in-universe explanation for this anomaly. I'd like to bring forth an analogy found in science I was told about in university. Imagine you're a turkey, and you've been purchased by a farmer. You're in a barn, it's pretty new and scary, and you think the farmer will kill you. It's night, and you hear footsteps. You expect death, but instead the farmer arrives and gives you food. The next night, these events repeat. So, you can find a link between the farmer's footsteps at night and being fed. But then as christmas arrives... you hear the footsteps at night, so using the pattern, you expect to be fed... but... (poor turkey...)

So, in science, we see that we can draw patterns, but if new information arrives, we'll have to reevaluate. So, yes there is a pattern, each time we see this pattern, we are in AD. But now we're in Popstar, and we see this pattern... so we have to reevaluate. So whilst I can see where you're coming from, I can't say I agree as we are told where we are and the background has chosen to break the rule.

As for architecture, it's basically just a way of saying "Well, if the background is what you're using for your basis, then I can look to background too and point out something that would help support the game's argument".


EDIT: As for no real evidence.... but we do, the issue is you don't. In-game text versus your interpretation with no concrete evidence to back it up. Hence why there is now the push to remove it, because the game does not support your view, and we take the game's view as more accurate than a fan's.


@Somelatinguy: I'll look into it after this stuff has been handled, but for now I'm not too sure...
 
>"Below it is the rest of the tower, above... nothing."

That is the point.

>"Beside it, however, the tower continues to rise, but as far as the balcony is concerned, nothing is above it"

...sorry what?

>"There is nothing to say this analogy cannot apply to Nutty Noon"

Read the above.

>"as we see that it does indeed continue higher"

We don't as there is nothing there. This is basic.

The second paragraph goes by the less logical option. So does the rest.
 
>That is the point.

Yep. I included this so we can start with your view, so you have something to start with. I don't want to throw you into the deep end in an explanation.

>...sorry what?

So, basically, you know what a balcony is, right? It is like a platform that sticks out the side of a building, so what is above and below it doesn't represent the number of storeys that the building has. The point of the story, therefore, is that whilst it may appear to be at the top of the tower, we can see that it isn't necessarily the top. And due to flying platforms, the arena itself could be flying above the tower, but to keep things easy to image, we can just see it as the tower continuing to rise and parts jutting out of it come to a stop.

>We don't as there is nothing there. This is basic.

Then how comes there is something there that we see with our very eyes? We are told that it is there [as I go into detail using primary sources to prove here], as what's the point of Grand Doomer coming to Popstar, the battle being summed up by saying that the Grand Doomer coming there, and then suddenly it is just in AD? That's kind of awkward, would make lines redundant, and is just not very logical or basic.

>The second paragraph goes by the less logical option. So does the rest.

If the canon is less logical than your headcanon, then should we adopt this for everything we do on this wiki? I think logic should be secondary and canonicity be paramount. Sure, I've had to sprinkle in a few of my own views to counter your own, but it doesn't change my basis is concrete evidence and yours is that the background makes you believe, due to a pattern you've noticed despite patterns by their very nature being susceptible to change, that it's in a different area to where it is stated to be. You could give the most logical reasoning in the world, but if the primary source says otherwise, I'm afraid I'm going to have to go with the game...
 
If you have nothing new to contribute or better logic then I also don't anything to contribute here.
 
I guess we'll have to wait for the views of others, but thanks for taking time out of your day to discuss this with me! I appreciate it.
 
No problem. About the powers from Superpower Wiki, I've been told that we should not link abilities to that wiki, but I always see profiles which do so, idk what to opine about it. The ones Kirby has seen kinda useless.
 
With this two-people-only discussion being technically over, I proceed to repeat my question:

How can Kirby and Co. on the Warp Star go to another space-time continuum without a portal or teleportation?
 
Parallel Susie likely used a portal, I heard that the Black Mirror leads to a dimension of the same name and that Dark Taranza was summoning foes from there (this would come from an interview in a Jap magazine). The slip between dimensions would come from this. This isn't related to Another Dimension.

@Somelatinguy Via flying, don't overthink it.
 
If it's unrelated to Another Dimension, then why does the prefix later get used for residents fo Another Dimension too? And I don't get what you meant by "The slip between dimensions would come from this", could you elaborate on that? As for a portal, maybe... but it's kinda vague, I guess.
 
The Jap wiki claims that this comes from a specific magazine, pointing out the page. I also once saw an admin confirming the existence of this. I "believe it" but do the minimum to go around this as I can't prove it myself.
 
Eficiente said:
@Somelatinguy Via flying, don't overthink it.
Click to expand...
Ok, I won't overthink it -even though the Lor would've just flown there without a portal, too-; there are still other two problems :

1) The Grand Doomer's presence doesn't make the place appear grayscale and neither does the Greater Doomer's, which means that occurs only in AD.

2) If the Lor piece were in that dimension, the heroes would have no idea where it exactly is, not even that it's outside their dimension.
 
1) No Doomer's presence was making anything grayscale. It's obviously more logical to blame the guy whose defeat caused the place to collapse. The Grand Doomer's battle takes place before that, and the Greater Doomer's fight takes place games after that. The normal Doomers' fights in Return to Dream Land took place moments after that.

2) Don't overthink it. This doesn't really matter.
 
1) So the heroes actually go ahead in time whenever entering a rift and the Sphere Doomers battles occur after Magolor's defeat, and this is clear due to the wave-like slimes' presence?

1a) We don't know how those slimes work, so they may appear frequently in the realm and the heroes may not go ahead in time at all.

1b) The realm doesn't become grayscale right after Magolor's defeat; and before you assume it does after the others and Lor get to Pop Star, every area stops being grayscale after its Doomer is defeated... So, the areas stop collapsing due to their Doomers' defeats?

3) There's still a point 3, but for now, point 1.
 
1) Mostly due to that, yes. Additionally blame Magolor is easier and the portals were said to be rifts in space-time.

1a) Due to the waves consuming parts of Another Dimension always being right after going into the rifts, there is really no reason to overthink this.

1c) We gave this to the Sphere Doomers as small 4-A feats, yes. Given that the restoration comes from their exploiting bodies and expands from that. Additionally the Doomers (or some of them) have "similar powers" such as being capable of flipping the entire setting upside down (including the background full of stars) and creating mini black holes.
 
1) The portals being rifts in space-time means they link two space-time continuums to each other; nobody travels in time just because of that.

1a) If this is about not overthinking, then players getting to those sub-stages with no knowledge about the realm's subsequent collapse just think of the slimes as unfavorable elements.

1b) So, the Doomers cause the color change and the Grand Doomer would too if the battle took place in that dimension.

+ About the 4-A magic/reality warping feats... https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1846138#23

- - - - -

3) This is the point 3... https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2479556#9
 
1) "Additionally".

1a) Don't make this longer.

1b) Not color change, fix the place, which is why the waves are part of the matter. Everything was all right by the time Grand Doomer fought them.

This is Spatial Manipulation and make your own thread.

3) I see nothing there. The Doomers fought Kirby and co. on AD, the information of them momentarily being in Popstar is irrelevant.

If you have nothing new do not continue this.
 
0) Going between dimension is basically impossible with physical movement.

1) It's not "additionally" easier to blame Magolor, because...

1a) Players aren't aware of the collapse before beating the game, so the slimes are presented to them as simply unfavorable elements.

1b) That assumes the slimes consume the realm, but they only cover foreground objects, which are uncovered undamaged if they're pushed back or after they leave.

2) Characters basically need a way to know where what they're looking for is.

3) "Sphere Doomers have come to the rifts leading to Pop Star", not "to Pop Star itself momentarily".
 
It seems the thread has attracted the attention of the strong opposition and the strong support... so maybe we should try reaching out to some third parties for more refreshed views?

(I'm also open to debating on Discord so that the long replies prone to having little-yet-important details being ignored won't become an issue if anyone wanted to do such.)
 
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