A powerscaling problem

In this message, the following is argued: Supernatural power and physical power aren't necessarily the same level; therefore, a character defeating another one with high supernatural power doesn't mean his physical power is high.

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On one occasion, someone asked here how SSB fighters defeating Master Hand and sometimes also Crazy Hand in the Classic Modes isn't canon, and then was given an argument for that positio.


1) Why would a child be able to lose to the toys he plays with?

He knows that the fighters represented by them are more powerful than him.


In an earlier thread, a few more arguments had been used before.


2) Master Hand is Low 2-C for creating the Smash universe. We even acknowledge that all the fighters within are treated as "toys" to him.

That one seems to come from the statement in his trophy description in Brawl that he seems to feel joy in challenging fighters, but other characters like Ryu don't treat their opponents like toys and feel that joy.


3) Yet we're going to scale them to him because they can fight him at the end of arcade mode? As I pointed out before, this not only makes no sense using the game's internal logic…

It's not only the end; the entire Classic Modes are about making the fighter's way to him and defeating him, sometimes along with CH.


4) … but it's not even a "canon" event within the "story" of the game; partially because, with the exception of Brawl, there isn't one.

- "The Subspace Emissary" is essentially the Adventure Mode of Brawl, only with a more elaborate story, and Adventure Modes are alternate versions of Classic Modes.

- By the way, if the events of Classic Modes weren't canon because supposedly they're not within the story of SSB games, shouldn't that apply to those of mini-games in Kirby games?


5) Seriously, MH is defeated by Tabuu as easily as Ganondorf, who was actually feigning loyalty to him and was going to betray him.


6) Additionally, if fighters defeating MH and sometimes also CH were an outlier because the brothers have high supernatural power, shouldn't that apply to Kirby defeating the villains in his series?

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In a later thread, a really good argument was used.


7) All the other characters hurt Kirby with said magic/reality warping, and subsequently hurt Kirby with physical force.

- Characters don't use their most powerful supernatural attacks in normal battles, as they take too long to charge them, which is a disadvantage for obvious reasons.

- For example, as seen in Kid Icarus: Uprising, also directed by Sakurai, Palutena can obliterate Pit with her most powerful supernatural attack but takes at least 20 seconds to charge it (Chapter 3), but can barely hurt him with her regular ones (Chapter 20).


8) All the other characters hurt Kirby with said magic/reality warping, and subsequently hurt Kirby with physical force.

- Characters' kinds of supernatural power aren't necessarily at the same level; hence, a character's offensive supernatural power isn't necessarily as high as his/her other kinds of that power.

- For example, most of Palutena's kinds of supernatural power at regular level can do big feats, but her offensive one at regular level can barely hurt a character comparable to Magnus (Chapters 18 and 24), who is barely strong for a human (Chapter 2).


9) There's an additional argument that physical power is needed to resist the use of supernatural power. - Actually, only the sub-attribute called stamina is needed, and other two called mental strength and skill prevent that problem from occurring.

- For example, Palutena can do big supernatural feats, but can physically hurt and be hurt as easily as a character barely strong for a human.

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10) Not only is there no reason for this to be different in the also Sakurai-made Kirby series, but also that series is children-oriented, a kind of work in which relationships between supernatural power and physical power are more irrelevant.


That's it for now.

I don't know what your intents are with this post. Is it to upgrade Smash characters to Low 2-C?

1) He knows that the fighters represented by them are more powerful than him.

Except Master Hand is frequently used as an allegory for a child playing with his toys. They aren't just fighters represented by toys; they are toys in the eyes of Master Hand.

2) That one seems to come from the statement in his trophy description in Melee that he seems to feel joy in challenging fighters, but other characters like Ryu don't treat their opponents like toys and feel that joy.

Your notion of Ryu is a red herring; does Ryu not feeling that joy, even if it were true, somehow negate the fact that Master Hand does take joy in challenging fighters?

Besides, I've never seen anybody cite the Melee trophy's statement of "taking joy" as evidence for the characters being toys. The melee trophy does, however, state that Master Hand is a link from the real world to the "world of trophies".

Master Hand taking joy in challenging fighters is very, very minor detail that is hardly even considered evidence for the argument that the Smash characters are toys, not the main point.

3) It's not only the end; the entire Classic Modes are about making the fighter's way to him and defeating him, sometimes along with CH.

But they don't fight him along the way. So yes, Azathoth is right in saying that they really do only fight him at the end of those game modes, and nowhere else. Your notion is true; that is what the classic modes are about, but that doesn't change the fact that they only fight him at the end.

4) "The Subspace Emissary" is essentially the Adventure Mode of Brawl, only with a more elaborate story, and Adventure Modes are alternate versions of Classic Modes.

Adventure Mode only appears in Melee and it isn't part of the story. It's not comparable to SSE in any way aside from having a few obstacle courses and target practices. Azathoth is correct in saying that there is hardly any story within Smash Bros aside from SSE.

By the way, if the events of Classic Modes weren't canon because supposedly they're not within the story of SSB games, shouldn't that apply to those of mini-games in Kirby games?

Going by info that others have given me, this is why.

However regardless of whether or not they are canon doesn't mean the characters scale to Master Hand. It makes zero sense for them to be able to truly defeat the one who controls all of them as if they were toys.

5) Seriously, MH is defeated by Tabuu as easily as Ganondorf, who was actually feigning loyalty to him and was going to betray him.

A 3-A could stomp a 6-B with just about as much effort as it would take to stomp a 7-B. Doesn't mean that the 6-B and the 7-B are in any way comparable.

Much like you did with your notion of Ryu, you're bringing up more stuff that I'm not sure has anything to do with making the feats more valid. How does Ganondorf feigning loyalty and planning a betrayal affect anything here?

I no longer consider myself knowledgeable on the Kirby verse so that's as far as my response goes.

The position of the first six arguments is that SSB characters are 7-B (according to this site), MH and CH are 2-C in supernatural power, and they're 7-B in physical power.


1) The dolls/trophies are toys in the eyes of the child, and the characters are stronger than him, so they must be physically stronger than his hands' representation too.


2) OK, let's forget about Ryu and the trophy; my interpretation of "treating like toys" was that MH just plays around (with the characters, not the toys) and doesn't use all his strength against them.


3) Shouldn't that apply to Kirby fighting villains only at the end of his games?


4a) It's shown in the instruction manual and in-game main menu that "The Subspace Emissary" is the Adventure Mode of Brawl.

- The openings and Classic Modes' endings of SSB1 and Melee, as well as the Adventure Mode's ending of the latter, show the child playing with his toys as the story.


4b) https://nintendoeverything.com/kirb...the-3ds-game-hals-relationship-with-nintendo/




So, that paragraph actually refers to just what the characters do in mini-games.

- The characters defeat the one who summons and challenges them, and the child controls the toys.


5) Difference between 6-B and 7-B <<<< Difference between 2-C (physically) and 7-B

- Ganondorf would have attacked MH to take his command from him.

Oh, I see now. I thought this was another attempt to upgrade the characters to Low 2-C.

1) Except they aren't representations. They are literally toys. The only reason they are able to fight at all is because they are being controlled by the hands. Master Hand isn't either; he is the child him/herself. It doesn't matter how powerful they are in the mind of the child, they are still toys and MH can only lose to them if he pretends they "defeated" him.

It's like a puppeteer playing with a puppet. The puppets are only capable of "defeating" him when the puppetteer says he's "defeated".

2) So then why would this argument be used to support Master Hand being downgraded to their level?

3) We ignore the feats because "Arcade Mode" isn't canon and it makes no logical sense that the toys would be able to harm the puppetteer in any way, not because the feats happen at the very end of Classic Mode. You're taking this out of context statement made by Azathoth and misconstruing it into this double standard that we hold across multiple verses. Seems like a strawman on your part.

4a) This doesn't make Classic or Adventure mode are any more canon that SSE. Even then, you have yet to give a proper rebuttal to the notion that scaling Master Hand down to the level of the characters (solely based on the fact that the toys "defeat" him) means scaling a puppetteer to his puppets.

4b) I don't see how any of this suggests that the characters only have those powers within the minigames. They explicitly state that the minigames are there to show people what Kirby and the other characters are capable of. "Different control scheme" and "you won't get this in the main game" doesn't necessarily mean "separate canon".

"The characters defeat the one who summons and challenges them, and the child controls the toys."

Once again I fail to see how this notion at all supports your point. Yes, they are controlled by the child. That's what I've been arguing.

5) That's not my point. My point is that of course someone who could casually stomp a Low 2-C could also stomp a 7-B with just as much effort; that doesn't mean that the 7-B should scale to the Low 2-C. I was settting an example, not saying that they're 1 to 1 the same.

Ganondorf was also attacking Tabuu, and yet he got curbstomped. Why are we assuming that the case would be different with Master Hand?

Regardless Master Hand's tier is being debated in another thread as we speak, so Master Hand may lose his Low 2-C ranking anyways.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1832967

1) The puppeteer would say he's "defeated" if the puppet represents a character stronger than him.

- Real world: Child's hands, and toys / Imaginary world: MH and CH, and fighters


2) Ok, misunderstanding over; let's focus on the other points.


3) We ignore the feats because "Arcade Mode" isn't cano… See point 4a.

- And it makes no logical sense that the toys would be able to harm the puppeteer in any way… See point 1.

- Not because the feats happen at the very end of Classic Mode… That contradicts the previous response to this point 3.

- So, yes, double standard; and no, not a straw man.


4a) How do these facts stop making Classic and Melee Adventure as canon as Brawl Adventure? Just because their stories are less elaborate?; and again, see point 1.


4b) In the rest of the answer, the devs explicitly state that mini-games are added for the games to appeal to more kinds of players, so in that context that paragraph does refer to just what the characters do in mini-games.

- Again, see point 1.


5) A character who struggles at least a little to defeat a (physically) 2-C wouldn't defeat a 7-B with just as much effort.

- However, that does occur, so Ganondorf is physically comparable to MH and the case would be different between them.


I promise to take a little time to read that thread.

"I no longer consider myself knowledgeable on the Kirby verse so that's as far as my response goes."

Wait, why not?

Because I haven't played a single game since RtDL. My only knowledge was limited to the info I gathered from other people, not from playing all of the different games. I wasn't able to pull all sorts of really helpful feats like Eficiente or others could.

1) Imagine yourself as a child playing with your toys, and you're making your hand the monster that kills everything. Then you have your action figure superhero guy save the day and "defeat" your hand.

Your hand hasn't actually been defeated unless you're an insane child who would brutalize his own hand with an action figure. Your hand is just fine, no harm done at all. The only reason you say your hand was defeated is because you arbitrarily decided "it was defeated". It doesn't mean your action figure is as strong as your hand.

In this case, Master Hand is your hand, and the Smash characters who defeat Master Hand are the action figures. Your point here would work if they were representations of the characters and not toys, but that is not the case. A child cannot be physically defeated by their own imagination.

3) For my responses to your other reponses, see my points above and below.

No, it does not contradict my previous response. My response was that you are wrong in saying that the characters fight Master Hand prior to the end of the game, not that Master Hand only being fought at the end of Classic mode is an argument to not scale him to the fighters. So no, not a double standard, and yes, strawman.

4a) I never said that they are counter-evidence, I said that they aren't evidence. I do concede, however, that there is some validity in treating them as canon, but that doesn't change the fact that reverse scaling Master Hand to the fighters means implying that a child can physically lose to his own imagination.

4b) I don't understand your logic here. So "these minigames are meant to appeal to a wider audience" leads to "the characters are only capable of doing this stuff within the minigames and absolutely nowhere else"? Care to explain why that is?

5) Except yes, they would. If you stepped on both a tarantula and an ant at the same time, they would both get squished. Tabuu is only the same tier as Master Hand because we don't know exactly how far he is above Master Hand, we just know it's enough to casually oneshot him.

Besides, Tabuu wipes out Ganondorf with considerably less effort than it took to overpower Master Hand. Ganon was pushed back instantly while it actually Took Tabuu a little bit of time to push Master Hand back. Not to mention Master Hand survived Ganon colliding with him.

This reminds me

• MH should have Mid-Low regen over time for fixing that hole in his "back".
  • CH scales, I guess.
• Tabuu should have combat applicable Mid-Low regen via fixing its wings.

I just thought of something.

If Master Hand were to be Low 2-C, wouldn't that only apply to his "true form" as the child while the white glove hand would just be the avatar the characters fight? What if the SSE were just another one of the kids' play sessions, with Tabuu being the dumb parent who ruins everything and the child wanting to take out that anger by having his favorite characters beat up an image of them?

@ArbitraryNumbers

So what, if any, changes do you suggest?

1) A hand creating a world and summoning first one Nintendo hero (SSB1 opening)

- "This symbolic link between the real world and the imaginary battlefields…"

- "A being tied to the link between this world, where trophies fight, and the world beyond."

- "The mysterious Master Hand is the source of creation in the Smash Bros. universe."

- Yes, they're representations of the child's hand and the heroes.


3) - But they don't fight him along the way / Not because the feats happen at the very end of Classic Mode… Contradiction.

- A copy-paste of a text saying that the characters fight MH prior to the end, please.

- So, yes, double standard, and no, not a straw man.


4a) OK, the problem is in point 1, so all over with point 4a too.


4b) Mini-games are added to make the games appeal to more players, by offering varied experiences like difficulty levels, control schemes and 4-player gameplay, instead of to establish canon.


5) What if a pup steps on both the tarantula and the ant at the same time? Tabuu struggles at least a little to defeat MH and Ganondorf.

- Tabuu defeats MH with a thin energy shield he creates instantaneously and Ganondorf with a big energy ball he has to charge, and a 1xx-kilo body falling at m/s wouldn't kill a 7-B (assuming this site is correct).

@Antvasima

I wasn't necessarily advocating for any changes, it was just food for thought. The Low 2-C ranking might get removed anyways.

@ArbitraryNumbers

Okay.

I am going to wait until the Master Hand revisions come through to form another full response.

However there is one thing that you're still wrong about, Latin.

3) "Not fighting him along the way" is not at all contradictory to "only fighting him at the end". In fact those two statements fit together perfectly. The Smashers don't fight Master hand prior to the ending (aka "along the way"), they only fight him at the end.

Azathoth's comment:

"Yet we're going to scale them to him because they ca fight him at the end of arcade mode? As I pointed out before, this not only makes no sense using the game's internal logic…"

Your response:

"It's not only the end; the entire Classic Modes are about making the fighter's way to him and defeating him, sometimes along with CH."

Except it is only in the end where they fight him. That's where you're wrong. It would only be contradictory if I went back on my own point, which I never did, because I wasn't making a point; I was merely telling you that you were wrong. I wasn't saying that Master Hand only being present at the end of Classic Mode was a reason to deny your suggestions.

Indeed you have cherrypicked a statement that Azathoth made, misconstrued it into a main point, and then presented it as if it were a double standard we hold across verses.

@AN I respect what you are doing, but Somelatinguy will not understand or stop his types of threads and comments, it will be best to ignore him.

I don't see anything inherently wrong with what he is doing, I just think he's way more conservative with this stuff than most of us are. He's not aggressive, he's not condescending, and he does his research.

@Eficiente, you decided to ignore me after seeing you were unable to refute this .

3) "Not fighting him along the way" is contradictory to "Not because the feats happen at the very end of Classic Mode."

- "It's not only the end; the entire Classic Modes are about making the fighter's way to him and defeat him, sometimes along with CH."

- So, yes, SSB characters fighting MH and sometimes also CH only at the end of Classic Modes should apply to Kirby fighting villains only at the end of his games.


4b) Plus: Even if mini-games were added to establish canon, that wouldn't mean every single one does what not even every single part of every single main mode does.

- Game mechanics of a few mini-games < Game mechanics of all main modes

- So, events of SSB Classic Modes supposedly not being canon because supposedly they're not within the story of their series, should apply to events of Kirby mini-games.


6) Again, if fighters defeating MH and sometimes also CH were an outlier because the brothers have high supernatural power, shouldn't that apply to Kirby defeating the villains in his series?

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7-9) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30soUXJUYzQ&t=3m15s (Chapter 3)

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTxNgE_apAg&t=13m40s (Chapter 20)

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUpP_FvFBWc&t=14m5s (Chapter 18)

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2y29XikQhU&t=20m10s (Chapter 24)

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO7YE5Fx8s4&t=8m40s (Chapter 2)

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10) Again, not only is there no reason for this to be different in the also Sakurai-made Kirby series, but also that series is children-oriented, a kind of work in which relationships between supernatural power and physical power are more irrelevant.

Now you're arguing from repetition. I've already told you; My initial response to "3)" wasn't me making a point against your suggestions, I was telling you that you were wrong in saying that the characters fight him prior to the ending.

Nobody ever once argued that scaling to Master Hand is invalid solely because he appears at the end. As far as I know that's not an argument we make against any verse here. It isn't a double standard we're holding, because we don't hold that as a standard for anything.

I'll say it again:

You have cherrypicked Azathoth's statement and acted like it's some sort of standard we're holding this verse to. That is indeed a straw man argument.

I see no point in continuing this discussion. For the most part your responses have been based on red herrings, cherrypicked details with no relevance to the topic at hand, and false equivalencies based off of minor details.

You can close this thread if you wish.

- "Making the fighter's way to him": The character goes a long way without fighting MH.

- No, I never said they fight him prior to the end.


- OK, nobody has ever argued that.


- Considering the above, I only misunderstood Azathoth's words.


- How is even one of my other arguments based on a red herring, a cherry-picked one irrelevant to the topic, or a false equivalency based on a minor detail?

Currently, Master Hand can be defeated by fighters in "World of Light", too; so, even if simple-in-story Classic Modes weren't canon before, they are now.

This means…

Tier // Name // Origin // Gender // Classification // Powers and abilities // Non-offensive magic or reality warping // Speed // Durability // Lifting strength // Striking strength and offensive magic // Stamina // Range // Weaknesses // Notable Attacks/Techniques

Remember not to comment on stuff > a month old.