Kingdom Hearts: The "Heart" is actually abstract

[GiverOfThePeace]

Assuming that Sora has stated hearts exist everywhere, there's a clear distinction that even non-sentient, non-biological, and non-living things in th everse can have a heart, yes. Nothing you're saying is debunking that premise, especially when it has support from Sora's statement. All you're basically implying is it's wrong because you simply cannot believe X has a heart cause it hasn't been conclusively proven in KH.

"You have to have a heart to cry". You need to have a heart in order to have emotions. So if they're emotions, yes they have hearts.

Also the fact that the only beings directly stated to not have hearts are also directly stated to not exist. Is another supporting point.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Also Sora's "Conceptual Manipulation in every blow" is absolute bullcrap. At best he's getting NPI from it.

This is a definite no, Xehanort literally destroyed Kairi's Heart with a single slash from No Name and there's no reason Sora shouldn't scale. We'll get back to the main topic though.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Tell me, do people who are able to kill ghosts have soul manipulation? No. They have NPI. This has zero difference except the fact that Sora has more of it (assuming it stays).

You need to stop calling things buzzwords as well. What they called you out for is correct in that you're trying to treat two completely different cases as if they're the same.

Xehanort slashing Kairi literally destroyed her body and her heart, leaving nothing left of her. That's not Non-Physical Interaction, your example is attacking someone who lacks a corporeal form so yes, you're not actually attacking at that level but you can. Now, unless you think Kairi is a living heart, she's a random conceptual being as a human, and just exists as an abstract being while nobody else naturally does, the attacks would be conceptual.

So yes, you committed a False Equivalence. Give a different reason if you don't agree with it because this point is being ignorant to that scene of Xehanort attacking a body also destroyed the concept of a person with.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Nothing really keeps the Keyblade users from having Conceptual Erasure here. But they don't conceptually hit someone everytime they smack someone with a sword. However, Xehanort blatantly conceptually erased Kairi (assuming we keep everything conceptual) with an attack. This means that if a Keyblade user wished, they could conceptually erase someone with a slash from their Keyblade. But they have to choose to do so.

 

[MrBreakout]

So it just becomes an in character problem then? I'm assuming that conceptual erasure is still applicable if that's the case

 

[TheSpeedster96]

I'm fine with Keyblade Wielders activating the Conceptual Erasure. Also, Warp should be considered Conceptual Erasure as it erases the heart, and Warp is described as erasing the target from existence.

 

[TriforcePower1]

This is just people taking stuff too literally.

"Concept of self" is commonly used to indicate something completely different. Straight from Wikipedia:

"Self-concept is made up of one's self-schemas, and interacts with self-esteem, self-knowledge, and the social self to form the self as whole. It includes the past, present, and future selves, where future selves (or possible selves) represent individuals' ideas of what they might become, what they would like to become, or what they are afraid of becoming."

KH hearts are just a "representation" of the above.

There's nothing really conceptual here

 

[MrBreakout]

We've already went over the hearts being made of lightness and darkness which are conceptual in nature as proven above, please read through the thread and if you have any qualms then, bring up relevant arguments. All of what you said have been refuted @TPI

 

[TriforcePower1]

We've already went over the hearts being made of lightness and darkness which are conceptual in nature as proven above, please read through the thread and if you have any qualms then, bring up relevant arguments. All of what you said have been refuted @TPI

Being made of conceptual stuff doesn't make it conceptual. I'm also composed from the concept of "human". Doesn't mean that whoever kills me will have conceptual manipulation.

 

[MrBreakout]

You're composed of organs and physical attributes, if you were to die right now, the concept of you will still exist via people remembering who you were. Removing someone's heart equates to taking everything from them.

 

[Imaginym]

@TheSpeedster96 wrote: "My point was the form Sora arrived in in The Final World ISN'T his Heart, given how Chirithy & Sora confirm what death is & that he experienced it. That said, I would like scans of that excerpt of Jiminy's Journal, please." Your own point doesn't even fit with Chirithy's context since he gives what happeeds to Sora, he never implies that Sora's heart didn't make it to the Final World either.

• Sora asks for clarification about Death, Chirithy explains, Sora reacts as if that's happened to him. It definitely implies Heart or Body perished, but okay.

"What makes that KH Insider's article you quoted objectively canon/accurate dialogue, as opposed to another fanmade summary?"

It's a direct summary from the game under "The Story So Far" for a world. The only reason why I linked it was because there isn't a YouTube video that goes over the summary of the world, and I couldn't find a way to directly screenshot it, but I'll use a camera to show that it actually states it.

"And if you're quoting it says his physical form was destroyed, & then why are you asserting the pieces of himself were his Heart? Chirithy & Sora discuss his shattered self as if it's about getting his BODY back. I'd take that over an icon/symbol."Because my point was that both his heart and body were damaged, which you clearly missed me saying. His fractured selves clearly go with restoring his heart as well, that's the entire point of his heart being used as the counter.

"Not to mention, a lot of the phantoms are doing things a body would do, moving about in athletic ways, rather than say, emoting like a Heart might"

This is now just a huge hasty generalization. You're implying that the phantoms have their own hearts when literally everything points to them being fractured versions of Sora.

• So you mean to assert that despite Chirithy & Sora's talk of body, & the summary saying his "physical form" was fragmented, & that it could just be that Sora got his whole Heart restored when he encountered Kairi (If it even lasted at all, considering he disappeared at the end of the game when she's safe.), that the Phantoms are both his Heart AND his Body?

"And Sora tells Young Xehanort that Baymax might be a robot, because YX has been experimenting to see what has Hearts (Toys, robots, etc.), that "There are Hearts all around us.", which, given the context, more likely refers to the Hearts of living beings."

So how does this remotely prove your point? That just further proves literally everything having a heart. Robots, toys, machines, etc aren't living things yet they're proven to have a heart.

• The point is context. Sora said what he said because YX had been treating sentient beings like puppets, or like they weren't people. I think that's a simpler & more clear takeaway than him asserting that even the air they breathe has Hearts.

"Worlds do have Hearts, & automatons & toys & people & animals may have Hearts, but that's a far cry from "governing all reality" & "shaping everything"?"

Hearts literally contain the concepts of light and darkness, which what makes up reality. A world's heart contains everything possible idea inside of it, so they do govern reality.

• Where is the latter confirmed? Also, Hearts are MADE of Light & Darkness, & we've seen that Hearts can be pure Light (Implying Darkness isn't a necessary component.) & Darkness can swallow a Heart. The other points aside. Being swallowed & overtaken by something you embody, I'm not sure about.

"Does Gravity have a Heart? Does Stitch's spaceship have a Heart? Does water have a Heart? And so on & so forth."

Actually yeah they would given all the statements, and how is this relevant to your point? Xemnas himself states that Nobodies, non existent beings who lack hearts are capable of growing them.

• Which statements prove this? And this is relevant to the point because this thread proposes Hearts have Aristotelian concept, quote the OP:

"3. Aristotelian Concept: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. (...)

• Our Wiki doesn't take assertions of such things easily, & there's already proof against Hearts governing all of reality, in that Pureblood Heartless lack them, the Lanes Between & Unversed probably lack between them, the barriers that divide worlds probably lack them, gummis & gummi space probably lack them, & there are forces that should exist in space, outside of each world that is a star.

Gravity, radiation....

Not to mention, not all Data & not all Nobodies begin with Hearts; If Hearts governed all reality as the OP proposed they did, an absence of a Heart & its influence seems contradictory.

"And I'm pretty sure there've been characters on the Wiki where they exist conceptually, but can still be interacted with & destroyed on some level without NPI/Conceptual Manipulation. (Isn't that the case for some Outsiders in D&D?)"

If they can be destroyed without NPI or conceptual manipulation, then they're a type 3 abstract. We've already established Heartless are just the hearts themselves.

• Heartless also exist as the Darkness, & based on some cutscenes (Like when a pile of Shadows pins Sora), they could be argued as having mass.

"Just because they exist in a conceptual way doesn't mean they are entirely so. Their Heart might be, but their Body seems less so, for one."

When did I ever say their body exists in a conceptual way?

• Well, isn't it the case destroying someone's Body in KH is sufficient to destroy them?

"And giving abilities like this to summons & world-exclusive partner Disney characters, based on KH original lore to the Disney characters has issues with crossover scaling."

I never agreed to adding those towards the characters, but Disney characters clearly exist as a separate lore then their original counterparts. I'm not defending them scaling or whatever though.

"When Sora talks with Strelitzia, he has a more clear form than he does when he entered TFW, presumably because he's gotten his body back. And Sora asks her "Who's Heart are you"? He doesn't look at all like a Heart like she does. I think it makes more sense that it's his body there."

Barely the upper half of his body is complete, and you can still see that he lacks a complete form. Sora being partially completed doesn't make this point any less relevant. And he probably doesn't look like a heart because he's literally stated to have kept some form of himself.

• He's not a complete being, no, but he still looks different from someone he's talking to who IS a Heart. The form he kept is via Kairi. Even if he only has part of his Heart back (Under the assumption Phantoms are pieces of his Heart), it's still suspect, especially when Chirithy tells us The Final World is where beings go when their Hearts perish.

"The Somebody of a Nobody requires the Heart be free, too, which often requires the Heartless be destroyed, & a Heartless & Nobody tend to be created simeultaneously. That Type 8 is very conditional, if it can be accepted at all."

Once again, it has been stated multiple times this wouldn't be combat applicable if accepted.

• Fair enough. Still, this shouldn't be applied to ALL Nobodies, because it only works with those that grew a Heart. Roxas took at least days, if not months.

"And beings being able to harm Heartless or Nobodies without a Keyblade or NPI more likely means the authors neglected an explanation because of game mechanics, like wanting guest star party members to be able to hurt them, rather than because, say, Mulan or Jack Sparrow have innately similar abilities to the Keyblade's."

I'm not going to bring up/defend Disney characters who are bound to just a world on this thread, but there are non Keyblade Wielders such as Donald and Goofy who can harm Nobodies and Heartless without a Keyblade. Magic has literally been shown inverse to do this.

• Then isn't it the case that they're not attacking with Conceptual Manipulation, but Magic, or just innately have NPI?

 

[Antvasima]

I have only had the time to read the recent staff posts here, but think that Dragonmasterxyz seems to make sense.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Aight so yesterday (or the day before) a few of us were discussing this and I won't really contribute much here outside of agreeing that hearts aren't a conceptual structure. This reeks of someone seeing the word 'concept' (specifically, the concept of self) and applying the logic that it must be a fully-blown conceptual thing, no doubt about it.

I'm going to watch and throw in my two cents occasionally, I suppose.

 

[Wokistan]

Oh is this the concept of self thing? Yeah, I had pretty major problems with using that as concept manip. Will see about elaborating later.

 

[MrBreakout]

I dont really see whats wrong with what's presented. Everything being argued for was contested and refuted and even further elaborated honestly.

 

[Antvasima]

Given how many KH profiles that have been edited, if Conceptual Manipulation is being rejected, somebody needs to fix them all.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

It's being contested right now.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Sera_EX]

Last minute objections....great.

 

[Antvasima]

This did suddenly turn into a mess, yes.

 

[Wokistan]

Okay so I got asked to make my grievances known so here they are:

• Hearts being tied to the existence of the concept of darkness doesn't serve as support for hearts being concepts, lest every single random object be conceptual because there's concepts of those objects
• The video that says Sora is conceptually in pieces has some issues. here it be. Problems:
  • Sera said before that a Heart is like the "concept of self", and this video seems to indicate such. This is due to their body being totally fine, but them being internally shattered. Destroying a governing concept would destroy objects bound to it, which would include his body.
  • Concepts of self are a psychology related thing. They aren't so much abstract forms as just how one perceives themselves based on intrinsic and extrinsic feedback. Think of it more like one's identity. I am willing to dig through my old psych textbook if anyone wants more on this, but yeah it's hardly the type of thing Conceptual Manipulation refers to. Bizarrely, it would seem to be more Mind Manipulation since that's much more in line with what a self concept is.
• "There are hearts all around us" doesn't mean they're conceptual
• Same for the memorabilia thing, psychological self concepts are also ubiquitous
• It seems like Light and Darkness in some form make up literally everything in the verse, so that would by consequence include the heart no matter what it is.

So yeah. The "heart" is definitely abstract, but this type of self concept thing it is doesn't fit under what we define for Conceptual Manipulation as a page and yet is still abstract. NPI+Mindhax would be warranted from that, I guess. That's just the concept stuff, will get back in with the abilities suggested and the rest of the thread later, since we seem to have had some developments since the OP.

 

[Bobsican]

I´m fine with some of the points, as they rely more on the others I will try to debunk:

Well, Chirithy actually says that normally only hearts can get in the Final World, meaning that he wasn´t "actually" destroyed as otherwise he would just have straight up died, as he said that it (death) comes as the natural end for those which body and heart perish together, and Sora still kept his body somehow (Which Chirithy even points out as something weird), so chances are he was a Nobody in there, but he managed to just repair his own heart in there, so when coming back, he could conventionally exist, unlike Nobodies.

As for the Light and Darkness, unlike everything else interestingly, hearts are different, they are stated to have another thing in them that´s neither light or darkness, which supports into them being actually abstract in the way the wiki calls Abstract Existence.

There´s probably more, but I would prefer your reply first.

 

[Antvasima]

So should we change "Limited Conceptual Manipulation" to Non-Physical Interaction instead?

 

[TriforcePower1]

I'm quite sure they have it already (and if they don't, they should get it regardless).

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Given that several staff members want to remove Conceptual Manipulation from all of the KH profiles, is somebody willing to actually perform the practical removal work? Or should we talk about this a bit more first?

 

[Bobsican]

I agree with the removal of concept manip with just NPI instead, I suspected as much and expected that stuff to have been brought up earlier on

Of note is that the resistance to Concept Manip has to be removed from all the pages too.

The Abstract Existence and EE stuff should still stay, however.

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody willing to properly carry out all of the changes?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I would wait for the other people defending the concept manip in this thread to come back.

 

[Bobsican]

I agree, this should get properly concluded first, as we could end up going back and forth with the editing otherwise.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[TheSpeedster96]

I'll agree that characters should get NPI instead of conceptual manipulation, but Xehanort should 100% get conceptual manipulation via controlling Kingdom Hearts since he was going to use it to reset the universe to a state where light and darkness are balanced.

 

[Bobsican]

I'll agree that characters should get NPI instead of conceptual manipulation, but Xehanort should 100% get conceptual manipulation via controlling Kingdom Hearts since he was going to use it to reset the universe to a state where light and darkness are balanced.

Would that also lead to Sora, Donald and Goofy resisting concept manip?

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

You see beforehand that Xehanort was literally able to kill Kairi casually on a conceptual level. If he already does that without restraint + wanted the Guardians of Light regardless, there'd be no reason for him to not want to attack on that level.

 

[Bobsican]

Then this means Sora, Riku, Aqua, Terra, Ventus, Roxas, Xion, Lea, Mickey, Donald, Goofy and Sora´s summons keep the resistance to concept manip

I still have the feeling everybody else will also lose the resistance to concept manip via scaling to Keyblade users, as now we know it fits better as just good NPI

Anything else?

So far:

- No more conceptual hax in general but Xehanort, it gets replaced with NPI for everybody else (and Xehanort gets it too)

- Sora, Riku, Aqua, Terra, Ventus, Roxas, Xion, Lea, Mickey, Donald, Goofy and Sora´s summons keep the resistance to concept manip, but via scaling from being able to take hits from Xehanort, or being comparable to Sora, Donald and Goofy

- EE and Abstract Existence stay

 

[Jackythejack]

This seems fine to me

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'll agree that characters should get NPI instead of conceptual manipulation, but Xehanort should 100% get conceptual manipulation via controlling Kingdom Hearts since he was going to use it to reset the universe to a state where light and darkness are balanced.

Okay but why is this Conceptual Manipulation

 

[TheSpeedster96]

Read above. Light and darkness are treated as concepts that make up/govern reality, and so far no one has been against that here, unlike hearts. Xehanort was going to use Kingdom Hearts to create a perfect world between the two. Kingdom Hearts was stated to have created all light too.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that seems reasonable for Xehanort, but we preferably need more staff input.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

You can politely ask all of the staff members who commented above to do so again via their message walls.