@TheSpeedster96 wrote:
"My point was the form Sora arrived in in The Final World ISN'T his Heart, given how Chirithy & Sora confirm what death is & that he experienced it. That said, I would like scans of that excerpt of Jiminy's Journal, please." Your own point doesn't even fit with Chirithy's context since he gives what happeeds to Sora, he never implies that Sora's heart didn't make it to the Final World either.
- Sora asks for clarification about Death, Chirithy explains, Sora reacts as if that's happened to him. It definitely implies Heart or Body perished, but okay.
"
What makes that KH Insider's article you quoted objectively canon/accurate dialogue, as opposed to another fanmade summary?"
It's a direct summary from the game under "The Story So Far" for a world. The only reason why I linked it was because there isn't a YouTube video that goes over the summary of the world, and I couldn't find a way to directly screenshot it, but I'll use a camera to show that it actually states it.
"And if you're quoting it says his physical form was destroyed, & then why are you asserting the pieces of himself were his Heart? Chirithy & Sora discuss his shattered self as if it's about getting his BODY back. I'd take that over an icon/symbol."Because my point was that both his heart and body were damaged, which you clearly missed me saying. His fractured selves clearly go with restoring his heart as well, that's the entire point of his heart being used as the counter.
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Not to mention, a lot of the phantoms are doing things a body would do, moving about in athletic ways, rather than say, emoting like a Heart might"
This is now just a huge hasty generalization. You're implying that the phantoms have their own hearts when literally everything points to them being fractured versions of Sora.
- So you mean to assert that despite Chirithy & Sora's talk of body, & the summary saying his "physical form" was fragmented, & that it could just be that Sora got his whole Heart restored when he encountered Kairi (If it even lasted at all, considering he disappeared at the end of the game when she's safe.), that the Phantoms are both his Heart AND his Body?
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And Sora tells Young Xehanort that Baymax might be a robot, because YX has been experimenting to see what has Hearts (Toys, robots, etc.), that "There are Hearts all around us.", which, given the context, more likely refers to the Hearts of living beings."
So how does this remotely prove your point? That just further proves literally everything having a heart. Robots, toys, machines, etc aren't living things yet they're proven to have a heart.
- The point is context. Sora said what he said because YX had been treating sentient beings like puppets, or like they weren't people. I think that's a simpler & more clear takeaway than him asserting that even the air they breathe has Hearts.
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Worlds do have Hearts, & automatons & toys & people & animals may have Hearts, but that's a far cry from "governing all reality" & "shaping everything"?"
Hearts literally contain the concepts of light and darkness, which what makes up reality. A world's heart contains everything possible idea inside of it, so they do govern reality.
- Where is the latter confirmed? Also, Hearts are MADE of Light & Darkness, & we've seen that Hearts can be pure Light (Implying Darkness isn't a necessary component.) & Darkness can swallow a Heart. The other points aside. Being swallowed & overtaken by something you embody, I'm not sure about.
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Does Gravity have a Heart? Does Stitch's spaceship have a Heart? Does water have a Heart? And so on & so forth."
Actually yeah they would given all the statements, and how is this relevant to your point? Xemnas himself states that Nobodies, non existent beings who lack hearts are capable of growing them.
- Which statements prove this? And this is relevant to the point because this thread proposes Hearts have Aristotelian concept, quote the OP:
"
3. Aristotelian Concept: Such concepts are abstract and
govern all reality. These concepts
shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however,
exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. (...)
- Our Wiki doesn't take assertions of such things easily, & there's already proof against Hearts governing all of reality, in that Pureblood Heartless lack them, the Lanes Between & Unversed probably lack between them, the barriers that divide worlds probably lack them, gummis & gummi space probably lack them, & there are forces that should exist in space, outside of each world that is a star.
Gravity, radiation....
Not to mention, not all Data & not all Nobodies begin with Hearts; If Hearts governed all reality as the OP proposed they did, an absence of a Heart & its influence seems contradictory.
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And I'm pretty sure there've been characters on the Wiki where they exist conceptually, but can still be interacted with & destroyed on some level without NPI/Conceptual Manipulation. (Isn't that the case for some Outsiders in D&D?)"
If they can be destroyed without NPI or conceptual manipulation, then they're a type 3 abstract. We've already established Heartless are just the hearts themselves.
- Heartless also exist as the Darkness, & based on some cutscenes (Like when a pile of Shadows pins Sora), they could be argued as having mass.
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Just because they exist in a conceptual way doesn't mean they are entirely so. Their Heart might be, but their Body seems less so, for one."
When did I ever say their body exists in a conceptual way?
- Well, isn't it the case destroying someone's Body in KH is sufficient to destroy them?
"And giving abilities like this to summons & world-exclusive partner Disney characters, based on KH original lore to the Disney characters has issues with crossover scaling."
I never agreed to adding those towards the characters, but Disney characters clearly exist as a separate lore then their original counterparts. I'm not defending them scaling or whatever though.
"When Sora talks with Strelitzia, he has a more clear form than he does when he entered TFW, presumably because he's gotten his body back. And Sora asks her "Who's Heart are you"? He doesn't look at all like a Heart like she does. I think it makes more sense that it's his body there."
Barely the upper half of his body is complete, and you can still see that he lacks a complete form. Sora being partially completed doesn't make this point any less relevant. And he probably doesn't look like a heart because he's literally stated to have kept some form of himself.
- He's not a complete being, no, but he still looks different from someone he's talking to who IS a Heart. The form he kept is via Kairi. Even if he only has part of his Heart back (Under the assumption Phantoms are pieces of his Heart), it's still suspect, especially when Chirithy tells us The Final World is where beings go when their Hearts perish.
"The Somebody of a Nobody requires the Heart be free, too, which often requires the Heartless be destroyed, & a Heartless & Nobody tend to be created simeultaneously. That Type 8 is very conditional, if it can be accepted at all."
Once again, it has been stated multiple times this wouldn't be combat applicable if accepted.
- Fair enough. Still, this shouldn't be applied to ALL Nobodies, because it only works with those that grew a Heart. Roxas took at least days, if not months.
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And beings being able to harm Heartless or Nobodies without a Keyblade or NPI more likely means the authors neglected an explanation because of game mechanics, like wanting guest star party members to be able to hurt them, rather than because, say, Mulan or Jack Sparrow have innately similar abilities to the Keyblade's."
I'm not going to bring up/defend Disney characters who are bound to just a world on this thread, but there are non Keyblade Wielders such as Donald and Goofy who can harm Nobodies and Heartless without a Keyblade. Magic has literally been shown inverse to do this.
- Then isn't it the case that they're not attacking with Conceptual Manipulation, but Magic, or just innately have NPI?
