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Kingdom Hearts: The "Heart" is actually abstract
- Thread starter Bobsican
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Upgrading everyone to 3-A is ridiculous and outlierish. Almost no one should scale.
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Also Ever said he is 100% against this which is specially funny since you're using his blog as an argument.
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Then that discussion had an objectively wrong conclusion. Do you even know what outlier even means? No summons should scale and keyblades aren't conceptual attacks.Bobsican said:
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Also, the word conceptual almost never means "Concept Hax" like people on this wiki interpret it as.
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I think we should deal with 3-A in another thread.
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I think Bob shouldn't be trusted with KH.
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>High 4-C Disny characters
My ******* sides
My ******* sides
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Mkay, so I think we should focus on KH and deal with it in a respectful manner. This is less about being blunt, but more about not causing a mess here. Like, let's not please?
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I'm sorry but I'm not being disrespectful. I'm calling a spade a spade.
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If Matt has a problem with 3-A then he can just try to downgrade it in a CRT.
Ranting about 3-A is completely irrelevant here.
Ranting about 3-A is completely irrelevant here.
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We aren't using it for that. The conceptually in pieces scan was to justify the heart being conceptual since Sora was literally in that state in the Final World with only his heart left, having his soul and physical body already destroyed.Matthew Schroeder said:
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Yes, that's nice but....what would that do here.
-You do this.
-People get uppity
-Arguments happen
-Shade gets thrown
-Reports happen
-Nothing gets settled.
The need to "call a spade a spade" and nice and all, but horribly inefficient. Are people too sensitive? Possibly. If they are, then if you want to get something done, you have to compromise and choose a kinder tone.
-You do this.
-People get uppity
-Arguments happen
-Shade gets thrown
-Reports happen
-Nothing gets settled.
The need to "call a spade a spade" and nice and all, but horribly inefficient. Are people too sensitive? Possibly. If they are, then if you want to get something done, you have to compromise and choose a kinder tone.
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Tbh it sounds like a lame excuse to just insult someone and take away their credibility.Being upfront and being blunt in that sense won't accomplish anything but cause problems.
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Matt, you're going to need to actually elaborate more if you disagree. All I see is a one sentence disagreement without anything to back this up.
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Also Ever disagreeing with something doesn't automatically invalidate it.
Although I have no opinion on 3-A KH.
Although I have no opinion on 3-A KH.
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The statement that the heart is conceptually destroyed doesn't mean what you think it means. It's just saying that his heart was shattered, that's it.
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I'm not knowledgeable on the verse, so I can't defend either side. I will however need you to give more proof to support your claims. That is all.
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Matt, it outright states Sora was in pieces on a conceptual level. Chirithy states he needed to piece himself back together just to have a physical body again. It quite literally means the heart is conceptual.
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"Conceptually destroyed"
You need some serious proof in order to debunk this as not being conceptual manip.I don't even care about KH but that needs to be debunked with more than just stating "the heart was shattered".
You need some serious proof in order to debunk this as not being conceptual manip.I don't even care about KH but that needs to be debunked with more than just stating "the heart was shattered".
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It doesn't say that. It just uses conceptually as a descriptor. Conceptually most often than not DOES NOT mean what it does in this wiki.
Like I've seen series that describe vampires with "The concept of time does not apply to them", not because they are unbound to the concept of time, but simply because they don't age. Similarly, in Nier Automata Adam says that the concept of death carries no meaning to machines simply because their bodies can be rebuild endless times over.
You need to interpret things less literally.
Like I've seen series that describe vampires with "The concept of time does not apply to them", not because they are unbound to the concept of time, but simply because they don't age. Similarly, in Nier Automata Adam says that the concept of death carries no meaning to machines simply because their bodies can be rebuild endless times over.
You need to interpret things less literally.
Bobsican
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This is different, as we can see that a "heart" is needed to exist in KH, which is already accepted as Nobodies already have Nonexistent Physiology, for example.
Please bother to actually check every part of the OP, Matt
Please bother to actually check every part of the OP, Matt
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Both the examples you listed are false equivalences. Sora was in a state where he only had some form of his heart, which is constiently established as fundemental to your existence in Kingdom Hearts. It's above both the soul and body. You're seriously going to need better proof than just "it's a metaphorical meaning".Matthew Schroeder said:
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Conceptually is defined as, "in terms of a concept or abstract idea."
Such a wording would imply the very idea of Sora is scattered. The heart realistically is not a body organ obviously, it's not a mind as Xehanort makes that comment that mind and hearts are different when he possesses Terra's body, and it's not a soul because soul and heart have been used separately before (I think even in the Ansem Reports?). If it's very clearly not any of those aspects, then what do you think it is? You think it's some sort of extra layer of soul or something?
No, because that's completely ridiculous to assume it wouldn't be a concept when the heart is consistently tied to almost identifying someone and giving them their meaning.
Such a wording would imply the very idea of Sora is scattered. The heart realistically is not a body organ obviously, it's not a mind as Xehanort makes that comment that mind and hearts are different when he possesses Terra's body, and it's not a soul because soul and heart have been used separately before (I think even in the Ansem Reports?). If it's very clearly not any of those aspects, then what do you think it is? You think it's some sort of extra layer of soul or something?
No, because that's completely ridiculous to assume it wouldn't be a concept when the heart is consistently tied to almost identifying someone and giving them their meaning.
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That's because there's actual context behind those two statements. You didn't provide any for this oneMatthew Schroeder said:
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You mean like how a soul is needed for people to exist in verses? But that doesn't make the soul conceptual.Bobsican said:
None of my examples are false equivalencies, they are all shown examples that the word conceptual isn't a catch all term that means exclusively what you think it means.
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yes but how does it mean it relates to that context in this case when both it being a soul and body is out of the equation. Three people explained this to you
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They are a false equivalencies. You hardly gave context on both of your example, while there's actual evidence of the heart being conceptual in nature, and giving someone their idea of self. The statement is blatantly referring to an actual metaphsyical state he was in.
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^Sera EX said:
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So...
Sora is busted now?
Sora is busted now?
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I'm going to go collapse on my bed now...
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I see all these people claiming Sora was in The Final World with only his Heart left, because his Body and Soul were destroyed, but....
https://youtu.be/XgtJ3E5-I_A?t=955
Chirithy brings up that Sora has died. Sora asks, "Wait, "death"?"
Chirithy: "Yes, the natural end for those whose hearts and bodies perish together."
Sora: "My heart and body perished? Um, does that mean..."
Chirithy: "Something is holding you here-refusing to let you go. You're hanging by a thread." (Namine, in TFW later informs Sora that this is Kairi.)
Sora asks about his friends, & Chirithy says no one else arrived with him, as well as "And if they're not here, they're either gone forever, or clinging to the world you came from."
Chirithy: "To become your old self again and return to the real world, you'll have to piece yourself together in this world, first."
Chirithy: "Usually, only a heart can reach The Final World. But since you've clearly managed to retain some kind of form, that can only mean your body was cast into this world as well."
Sora: "Okay, so if I can find my body, that means I'll be able to go back?"
Chirithy: "Precisely. But there's a lot of you to find. You're going to be busy."
Later, Chirithy asks Sora if Sora hasn't already learned how to restore someone's Heart after it's been lost. Sora asks if it's the same as the Power of Waking, & Chirithy says "I'm not sure. Give it a shot?". Sora says it'll take all his heart.
So. Sora did NOT bring his Heart into The Final World, because Chirithy explains death is Heart and Body perishing, & clarifies that's what happened to Sora.
Chirithy even further clarifies it's not his Heart by saying usually (Implying this isn't the case here.) only a Heart can reach The Final World, but since Sora's retained "some kind of form" (Implying how he is before Chirithy then is not as a Heart, nor a body.), that Sora's body was cast into this world as well.
Sora DOESN'T have a form because he has a Heart, but because Kairi is holding onto him, & with all her strength at that.
So it's pretty likely Sora's Heart was never in pieces, & rather, it was what he & Chirithy specifically discuss finding, that was in pieces: His Body.
And their dialogue implies restoring someone's heart is something a Keyblade Wielder learns to do, Sora implies it's difficult for him, & this kinda goes against automatic self-Heart restoration, IMHO.
https://youtu.be/XgtJ3E5-I_A?t=955
Chirithy brings up that Sora has died. Sora asks, "Wait, "death"?"
Chirithy: "Yes, the natural end for those whose hearts and bodies perish together."
Sora: "My heart and body perished? Um, does that mean..."
Chirithy: "Something is holding you here-refusing to let you go. You're hanging by a thread." (Namine, in TFW later informs Sora that this is Kairi.)
Sora asks about his friends, & Chirithy says no one else arrived with him, as well as "And if they're not here, they're either gone forever, or clinging to the world you came from."
Chirithy: "To become your old self again and return to the real world, you'll have to piece yourself together in this world, first."
Chirithy: "Usually, only a heart can reach The Final World. But since you've clearly managed to retain some kind of form, that can only mean your body was cast into this world as well."
Sora: "Okay, so if I can find my body, that means I'll be able to go back?"
Chirithy: "Precisely. But there's a lot of you to find. You're going to be busy."
Later, Chirithy asks Sora if Sora hasn't already learned how to restore someone's Heart after it's been lost. Sora asks if it's the same as the Power of Waking, & Chirithy says "I'm not sure. Give it a shot?". Sora says it'll take all his heart.
So. Sora did NOT bring his Heart into The Final World, because Chirithy explains death is Heart and Body perishing, & clarifies that's what happened to Sora.
Chirithy even further clarifies it's not his Heart by saying usually (Implying this isn't the case here.) only a Heart can reach The Final World, but since Sora's retained "some kind of form" (Implying how he is before Chirithy then is not as a Heart, nor a body.), that Sora's body was cast into this world as well.
Sora DOESN'T have a form because he has a Heart, but because Kairi is holding onto him, & with all her strength at that.
So it's pretty likely Sora's Heart was never in pieces, & rather, it was what he & Chirithy specifically discuss finding, that was in pieces: His Body.
And their dialogue implies restoring someone's heart is something a Keyblade Wielder learns to do, Sora implies it's difficult for him, & this kinda goes against automatic self-Heart restoration, IMHO.
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