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Kingdom Hearts: The "Heart" is actually abstract

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Well, it seems it´s only usable in a fashion of Regenerationn Negation, right?

For now I would refrain from making more edits regarding the stuff as it seems there´s still stuff pending to discuss, (regarding the edits, BTW)
 
Where is it stated that Xehanort conceptually killed Kairi? That's sure is never said in any of the dialogue.

Also why would this scale to everyone who wields a Keyblade and not just be an ability that Xehanort himself has?
 
"Conceptually killing" someone is not Concept Manipulation, it's conceptual destruction. Killing a spiritual being isn't Soul Manipulation either for example. So before you try and clown Medeus, understand he's in the right here.

More importantly, when did Xehanort kill Kairi? Death occurs when the soul and the body perish together. It's stated in KH3 itself. Xion even tells Sora she still feels Kairi's heart. She wasn't killed, not in the way death works in the Kingdom Hearts universe.

If Kaira actually died, Sora would not have been able to bring her back since the Power of Waking isn't for reviving people from death. (It's also not for restoring hearts but it ca be used to do so).
 
Just an off-topic request: Can somebody supply a brief explanation of the power of waking for me?
 
@ Antvasima: I'm not sure this page is entirely accurate, but any inaccuracies could be corrected by other members. https://www.khwiki.com/Power_of_waking (I can't recall what the Ultimania says about it. If anyone has good sources for what the Ultimania says, please do tell me.)

I hope that helps. If you have other questions, I'm sure someone can answer them.
 
Yen Sid describes the Power of Waking as "the power to free a heart from its sleep".

The Power of Waking is used to awaken sleeping hearts (for example, Ventus). Riku and Mickey also use it to try and save Aqua from the Realm of Darkness. It can also be used to restore hearts (apparently this involves time travel or time reversal), but according to Young Xehanort and later Mickey, it's not supposed to be used for that and continuously using it in that way comes at a heavy price. Such price is becoming lost yourself, hence why Sora disappeared from his world and winded up in Shibuya (in the Yozora world).
 
Okay. Thank you for the explanation.
 
Sera EX said:
"Conceptually killing" someone is not Concept Manipulation, it's conceptual destruction. Killing a spiritual being isn't Soul Manipulation either for example. So before you try and clown Medeus, understand he's in the right here
Click to expand...
Okay fair enough. But I wasn't trying to clown DDM and made sure to specifically mention that wasn't my intention in my comment.
 
Sera is msking sense to me. By this I agree that this isn'g Coneptual Destruction.

However, what The Great Nort did was a bit special compared to other Keyblade attacks. Would was he did to Kairi be a type of DN?
 
Sera EX said:
"Conceptually killing" someone is not Concept Manipulation, it's conceptual destruction. Killing a spiritual being isn't Soul Manipulation either for example. So before you try and clown Medeus, understand he's in the right here.
Click to expand...
Conceptual destruction is a form of conceptual manipulation, it even says it on the page for it.

Killing a spiritual being is non-physical interaction but destroying someone's soul is soul manipulation.

Since I don't know or care about Kingdom Hearts you can settle it amongst yourselves whether or not conceptual manipulation is legit for the series but that one particular comment DDM made is incorrect.
 
Conceptual Destruction is a subset of CM, but still technically different as you aren't manipulating a concept, but flat out destroying it. Yes I am being a semantic asshole right now.
 
I mean, I feel like you're definitely manipulating something if you're destroying it. This is kinda pointless

I've already established why the self concept stuff doesn't fly though, why would concept manip on regular attacks be back?
 
Yes you are manipulating the concept's demise or destruction. What Sera and DDM probably meant was concept alteration, which is another subset of concept manipulation to begin with. But like Wokistan said it's kinda pointless, so it's best we drop before it goes any further.
 
I guess destroying someone's existence isn't existence erasure or manipulating the laws and physics of your surroundings isn't reality warping. But what do I know? I'm just a regular member with a blue colored name.
 
You would need to have the ability to interact with a concept to destroy it, so it would count as a form of conceptual manipulation.

You're just bound by the forms of conceptual manipulation you've shown. Being able to destroy a concept doesn't mean you can create one or vice-versa.
 
Nowhere does anyone provide a source for Xehanort leaving Kairi conceptually in pieces/killing Kairi on a conceptual level, they just bring it up like it's something we already know as a fact

What happens is that Xehanort hits Kairi, her body disintegrates. That's it, we're not given any further dialogue or scenes to imply that he conceptually erased her.
 
Wokistan said:
I've already established why the self concept stuff doesn't fly though, why would concept manip on regular attacks be back?
Click to expand...
Because it seems there was not enought agreement to your idea, which then leaded to this via scaling to Xehanort who conceptually killed Kairi respectively, in very simple terms.
 
Again, this is a really pointless argument since concept stuff has other more pressing issues that count against its inclusion.
 
Guys we already proved our point. Let's move on and stop the derail for rn, it can lead us into trouble.
 
@matt It's this. If the timestamp doesn't work, 08:04:56 Wait no I'm dumb that's something else idk where the kairi stuff is from

@bob what are the issues people have with my comment though? The self concept thing doesn't seem to have been addressed.
 
Don't SMT and Archie Sonic comics have conceptual manipulation for doing what's that: destroying the concepts? And I guess Ghostfreak aka Za'Skayr shouldn't have soul manipulation for destroying King Xarion's soul when trying to possess Viktor.
 
Bobsican said:
I´m fine with some of the points, as they rely more on the others I will try to debunk:
Well, Chirithy actually says that normally only hearts can get in the Final World, meaning that he wasn´t "actually" destroyed as otherwise he would just have straight up died, as he said that it (death) comes as the natural end for those which body and heart perish together, and Sora still kept his body somehow (Which Chirithy even points out as something weird), so chances are he was a Nobody in there, but he managed to just repair his own heart in there, so when coming back, he could conventionally exist, unlike Nobodies.

As for the Light and Darkness, unlike everything else interestingly, hearts are different, they are stated to have another thing in them that´s neither light or darkness, which supports into them being actually abstract in the way the wiki calls Abstract Existence.

There´s probably more, but I would prefer your reply first.
Click to expand...
Yes, it was addressed already, but no one replied, so everyone just moved on.
 
Okay but I'm not disputing abstract existence. I don't think that what they are falls under our definitions of Concept manip, because of what a psychological self concept is.
 
Wokistan said:
Okay but I'm not disputing abstract existence. I don't think that what they are falls under our definitions of Concept manip, because of what a psychological self concept is.
Click to expand...
Well, Sora was still thinking properly, so thinking it´s the psychological one requires way more assumptions than it just being Conceptual instead.
 
The thing is, a "concept of the self" is an idea that stems from psychology as opposed to the sort of reality governing concepts we take as actual concept manip. Having the concept of sora that governs the existence of sora shattered should do bad things to his body, yet you yourself said his body was just fine, which points to this not being the same as that sort of thing.
 
Because his body and soul were still fine, the "heart", on the other hand... he simply needed it repaired to be able to come back without being a Nobody
 
But that's the thing. If it was the type of concept that governed his existence, his body wouldn't be fine. People probably aren't gonna do very well without any sense of self, so needing that to come back properly doesn't exactly preclude the psychology version/
 
Wokistan said:
But that's the thing. If it was the type of concept that governed his existence, his body wouldn't be fine. People probably aren't gonna do very well without any sense of self, so needing that to come back properly doesn't exactly preclude the psychology version/
Click to expand...
Well, it´s more like of a verse mechanic as he got in a place that explicitly is between death and sleep, so it can´t really take that one reasoning, especially considering Sora isn´t wondering who is he when he got there either, in fact he even says his name and still seems to remember everything before then.
 
@Wokistan

Thank you for helping out.
 
Ok fine. Concept destruction can be listed as manipulation for some reason. That doesn't change anything. I just debunked Xehanort killing Kairi in any way, especially "on a conceptual level". The Keyblade is all about hearts. What Xehanort did was expel Kairi's heart from her body to provoke Sora. Xion outright tells Sora she can still feel Kairi's heart. Kairi was not killed in any way. Death in Kingdom Hearts requires the body and heart perish at the same time. We know Kairi's body disappeared but her heart was still around. She became a wandering heart, thus why Sora used the Power of Waking to restore her body.

Xehanort did not kill Kairi, especially not on a "conceptual level".
 
Wokistan said:
But that's the thing. If it was the type of concept that governed his existence, his body wouldn't be fine. People probably aren't gonna do very well without any sense of self, so needing that to come back properly doesn't exactly preclude the psychology version/
Click to expand...
^^^^^^^^^
 
I suspected as much TBH, I actually somewhat agree with Sera in this regard.
 
Bobsican said:
Well, it´s more like of a verse mechanic as he got in a place that explicitly is between death and sleep, so it can´t really take that one reasoning, especially considering Sora isn´t wondering who is he when he got there either, in fact he even says his name and still seems to remember everything before then.
Click to expand...
This basically removes the potential of it being the "psychological" one, if that wasn´t clear.
 
Sera EX said:
Ok fine. Concept destruction can be listed as manipulation for some reason. That doesn't change anything. I just debunked Xehanort killing Kairi in any way, especially "on a conceptual level". The Keyblade is all about hearts. What Xehanort did was expel Kairi's heart from her body to provoke Sora. Xion outright tells Sora she can still feel Kairi's heart. Kairi was not killed in any way. Death in Kingdom Hearts requires the body and heart perish at the same time. We know Kairi's body disappeared but her heart was still around. She became a wandering heart, thus why Sora used the Power of Waking to restore her body.
Xehanort did not kill Kairi, especially not on a "conceptual level".
Click to expand...
Her body was destroyed on a conceptual level, just like Sora's. Yeah, her heart survived. It doesn't change her having the sametranslucent appearance Sora had in the Final World when he was in conceptual pieces. Also I'm just putting out there that if Kairi is capable of extending protection to Sora's heart, stopping it from being destroyed, then it's a logical conclusion to assume that she can protect her own heart.The Ultimania already states how strong her light is .

@Wokistan His body was not fine. We literally see that it was completely in pieces, and Jiminy's Journal entry of the worlds state his physical body was in literal pieces. Chirithy himself says that Sora was hanging own by a thread, close to being utterly destroyed. Kairi was the only thing keeping his heart from being destroyed, so no, it's not just a psychological thing. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/597197555721437288/628009316116463616/20190929_162002.jpg https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/597197555721437288/628009317169102876/20190929_162056.jpg https://youtu.be/XgtJ3E5-I_A?t=1808
 
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