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Kingdom Hearts: The "Heart" is actually abstract

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I also COMPLETELY side with Matt's arguments here (even if there was animosity). Even if hearts are abstract, having a heart doesn't make you an abstract in the same way having a soul doesn't.
 
Well, I don't know what to do here, but a lot of edits were carried out to the Kingdom Hearts profiles. If this ends up being rejected, these would all have to be reversed or modified.

Also, if any characters should be downgraded from 3-A, it seems best to first start a separate content revision thread.
 
Imaginym said:
I see all these people claiming Sora was in The Final World with only his Heart left, because his Body and Soul were destroyed, but....

https://youtu.be/XgtJ3E5-I_A?t=955

Chirithy brings up that Sora has died. Sora asks, "Wait, "death"?"

Chirithy: "Yes, the natural end for those whose hearts and bodies perish together."

Sora: "My heart and body perished? Um, does that mean..."

Chirithy: "Something is holding you here-refusing to let you go. You're hanging by a thread." (Namine, in TFW later informs Sora that this is Kairi.)

Sora asks about his friends, & Chirithy says no one else arrived with him, as well as "And if they're not here, they're either gone forever, or clinging to the world you came from."

Chirithy: "To become your old self again and return to the real world, you'll have to piece yourself together in this world, first."

Chirithy: "Usually, only a heart can reach The Final World. But since you've clearly managed to retain some kind of form, that can only mean your body was cast into this world as well."

Sora: "Okay, so if I can find my body, that means I'll be able to go back?"

Chirithy: "Precisely. But there's a lot of you to find. You're going to be busy."

Later, Chirithy asks Sora if Sora hasn't already learned how to restore someone's Heart after it's been lost. Sora asks if it's the same as the Power of Waking, & Chirithy says "I'm not sure. Give it a shot?". Sora says it'll take all his heart.


So. Sora did NOT bring his Heart into The Final World, because Chirithy explains death is Heart and Body perishing, & clarifies that's what happened to Sora.

Chirithy even further clarifies it's not his Heart by saying usually (Implying this isn't the case here.) only a Heart can reach The Final World, but since Sora's retained "some kind of form" (Implying how he is before Chirithy then is not as a Heart, nor a body.), that Sora's body was cast into this world as well.

Sora DOESN'T have a form because he has a Heart, but because Kairi is holding onto him, & with all her strength at that.

So it's pretty likely Sora's Heart was never in pieces, & rather, it was what he & Chirithy specifically discuss finding, that was in pieces: His Body.

And their dialogue implies restoring someone's heart is something a Keyblade Wielder learns to do, Sora implies it's difficult for him, & this kinda goes against automatic self-Heart restoration, IMHO.
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When did anyone say solely his heart was left? The closest thing that was said was me saying that only his heart had remained at the time, one in a fractured state with his body in pieces as well.

Chirithy's statement does not go against the idea of his heart being in the Final World, which you claim it wasn't The "some kind of form" he was in was referring to the metaphysical state he was in at that point. Strelitzia even says that he had retained some sort of form as a heart, and questions if that was because he's special. https://youtu.be/yTGoKBw12Tk?t=7m8s

"You look like a person. How is it that you retain your appearance? Are you special?"

The summary of what has happened in Jiminy's journal outright states that his heart had survived destruction and that his body was in pieces as well.

https://www.khinsider.com/kingdom-hearts-3/worlds/keyblade-graveyard "He encountered a strange creature named Chirithy, who told him he was in The Final World. While Sora's heart had survived utter destruction, his physical form had been fragmented, and so he set about piecing himself back together."

If that's not enough, and since you didn't read the OP (I'm guessing), the counter that indicates how many "phantoms" are left shows his heart, meaning it too was clearly damaged. Riku, Mickey, Aqua, etc ALL had the same damaged appearance of Sora in the Final World, and we see the Lich Heartless taking their hearts. This entirely lines up with Chirithy saying he was hanging by a thread. https://youtu.be/0ShQFf2i_vA?t=3m40s

Yes, Kairi was the reason why he could pull himself back together, no one even denied that here.

@Dark @Cal Matt hasn't at all refuted the context behind Sora being in conceptual pieces other than "it's a metaphorical reasoning", or the other reasoning for the heart being conceptual. And not that I'm with in agreement with everyone getting abstract existence because of the heart, but it has been shown characters regen because of their own heart still existing due to it being the embodiment of their own self, which qualifies for Type 2 Abstract Existence. This would apply to very few people though, and it's not combat applicable.
 
Whether it's combat applicable or not, that's not the point. And it being metaphorical reasoning is a big deal. Matt had a point with us having trigger words when in actuality, something being proven to be an actual concept is very different. KH may treat the heart and the soul as something different, but the heart acts very similar to the latter, not an actual concept like characters such as Dialga, Darkseid, or Lucemon.

Also Sora's "Conceptual Manipulation in every blow" is absolute bullcrap. At best he's getting NPI from it.
 
The heart does not act similar to the soul in KH I don't know where this headcanon even got started.

https://www.khwiki.com/Heart

"As of yet, it has been determined by the various characters that the heart is primarily made up of light and darkness, the latter of which formed due to people's greed."

So unless the soul is made up of conceptual elements (despite there already being an existing soul in the verse) this is completely wrong.

Then debunk it being "absolute bullcrap" instead of calling it that. None of you have brought forth any good counter-arguments beyond "It's being metaphorical" or "It's wrong", and this is exactly why people have been getting fed up and tired in this thread. If you cannot give out your full reasoning due to time constraints or irl problems, then at least do what triforce did in my thread and state you'll expand upon later instead of giving these lackluster refutes.
 
"Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it."

This is the definition of Abstract Existence Type 2. They embody their own heart which is made up of light and darkness, both being absolute concepts. Matt ignored the entire context behind what was happening, and other sources I linked state he was in pieces on a conceptual level. Literally every existence has a heart in it, and it functions entirely different than a soul. This thread has given a ton of information to separate the two.

Heartless are the literal embodiment of darkness, and are hearts, which have been shown as conceptual. Literally all of Sora's magic and attacks can kill/effect them.
 
The issue is that "metaphorical reasoning" isn't an applicable debunk here. We understood what matt meant with those analogies, there just not good considering those two examples he gave have an actual context behind them to refute them actually referring to concepts, he didn't provide any for this one. That's what we're attacking him on.

It's been elaborated that they already have conceptual elements to them, idk why they would be interchangeable with one another.

"Also Sora's "Conceptual Manipulation in every blow" is absolute bullcrap. At best he's getting NPI from it."

Kind of a baseless claim, why is it bullcrap exactly?
 
Light and darkness being conceptual at all is incredibly up to debate. What proves light and darkness being concepts? And mind re-linking or quoting the link about conceptual shattering? Sounds so specific that you can understand why I'm taking it with a grain of salt.

All you guys are specifying is that the heart isn't the soul. Which I admitted. What you're not disputing is that they don't act the same. Heck, the first sentence of the KH wiki implies that it's not conceptual. If anything, the heart replaces the normal "mind" that goes with the three parts that make up a person. Instead of body mind and soul, it's body heart and soul.

@Giver. I don't have to prove a negative. You have to prove that it's not metaphorical and that it's a literal concept, instead of being like what Touhou does with the mind.
 
Conceptual manipulation in every blow being bull

For the same reason each of the Creation Trio don't have the ability for being able to beat each other down, the Royal Knights in Digimon don't have it for being able to beat up the Demon Lords, and etc.
 
What makes them concepts is that they make up the entirety of existence, and everything is made up of both of them. The OP has the info, but I'll link them here:

Sora in the Final World was conceptually in pieces. During when you collect the phantoms, the heart is in the upper right screen along with a number counter, implying that Sora was collecting pieces of his heart. https://imgur.com/a/zGdt9q5 https://youtu.be/zgBaWRjCnCs

Sora literally states that hearts are all around us. https://youtu.be/LbXiZdKUo4s?t=4m45

The Kingdom Hearts Memorial Ultimania further backs this up. https://imgur.com/a/uajMYOt

The heart is made up of light and darkness, both making up existence. https://kingdomhearts.fandom.com/wiki/Ansem's_Reports https://youtu.be/XYKtJUdqgfA?t=24m26s
 
No that's not debatable, it's very clearly conceptual and it's explaned above why that's the case.

They don't act the same at all and we've disputed this, you just ignored us I can even quote where I disputed it: "So unless the soul is made up of conceptual elements (despite there already being an existing soul in the verse) this is completely wrong." Cal exuse me? Quote: "The soul (Ú¡é tamashii?), also known as the spirit or the mind, along with the body and heart, is a part vital to the complete existence of any living thing. The soul literally gives the body life, and is the difference between being alive or dead. It is the force that wills the body to live, and drives it to survive."

The soul in KH acts as both the soul and the mind.

"You have to prove it's not metaphorical"

"I don't have to prove a negative"

Tfw. Anyways we've proven abovev and refute the claim of it being metaphorical, so now the burden is shifted to you. Plain and simple.
 
@Speedster. I thank you for providing info. While I'm still not sold, I appreciate both the effort and the cordiality you've shown.
 
The real cal howard said:
Conceptual manipulation in every blow being bull
For the same reason each of the Creation Trio don't have the ability for being able to beat each other down, the Royal Knights in Digimon don't have it for being able to beat up the Demon Lords, and etc.
Click to expand...
Except the reasoning isn't because the heartless can "beat each other up" but because keyblade users can permenantly kill a heartless. So already you've shown to me you have not been read the premise of this thread and have thrown out pointless false equivalences.
 
Anyways since the context is actually provided that hearts are conceptual can we stop focusing on the analogies matt brought up now.
 
Tell me, do people who are able to kill ghosts have soul manipulation? No. They have NPI. This has zero difference except the fact that Sora has more of it (assuming it stays).
 
Cal. Negating a conceptual beings ability to come back and harming a ghost are two completely different fronts. This is yet another false equivalence. Even then killing ghost should be at least minor soul manipulation but that can be saved for another thread.
 
Also characters on this wiki literally have soul manipulation for attacking souls, every UT characters, the belmonts, etc.
 
False equivalence is becoming a buzzword to just dismiss examples that are slightly different to the matter at hand
 
Not what a buzzword is and it's a logical fallacy, if you have a problem with it, use an example that actually applies. I already refuted the argument apart from false equivalence irregardless.
 
I understand the standard for attacking souls =/= soul manipulation even though I'm sorta indifferent to it But what actually makes it a similar case to destroying conceptual beings?. If they are an abstract idea and they get destroyed or erased completely by someone why cant we assume that they can erase other concepts of other beings.
 
@Dragon We've been saying his "casual attacks" are conceptual because all his powers throughout the Kingdom Hearts games have shown to be able to kill Heartless, not the other way around.
 
I wont carry on with this discussion for long since abstract existence is going through. Even if I disagree with the answer I'd still like someone's perspective on it
 
I think Cal should have explained his point better as the way he stated it does not work.

What I think Cal is trying to say is that (mind reader dragon here) and I can flesh out one of his examples better.

When he brings up Soul Manipulation, I believe he's bringing up being able to attack a soul outside it's body not being Soul Manipulation, but NPI (even though it should be limited Soul Manipulation but I digress) as this doesn't mean said person always attacks souls directly.

While not completely equivalcal, I see the logic. If a person can kill a conceptual or abstract entity directly without having a physical body in from of the concept, then it doesn't mean that everytime they fight a person, they are attacking their concepts with every hit. Just that any of their attacks could destroy the conceptual self if it were to appear.

And example Cal brings up is Digimon in which fighting Conceptual Entities is extremely common. However, said characters who manage to actually permanently kill these beings don't get "Conceptual attacks with every hit", but "Can kill Abstract Entities (Type X) and beings with X Regenerationn". Or Susanoomon who killed Lucemon with one of his basic attacks doesn't get Conceptual Manipulation with every hit, but, well, what I said above. I am also pretty sure we never gave characters constant conceptual attacks for this reason. I can always make a thread to double check this however.

I hope I explained myself properly. Also, keep this thread civil people...
 
TheSpeedster96 said:
@Dragon We've been saying his "casual attacks" are conceptual because all his powers throughout the Kingdom Hearts games have shown to be able to kill Heartless, not the other way around.
Click to expand...
How is that any different from what I said?
 
I'm still indifferent towards the semantics of it, but this thread would drag on too much if I get into deeper detail about it, I'll accept the standards for NPI and conceptual manipulation for now.

Can we get a count for the individuals who agree with abstract existence though
 
Because "casual attacks" would imply that since his basic attacks can kill conceptual beings, then all his powers are upscaled from that despite never shown that. All of Sora's attacks work on Heartless, but I'll drop it being conceptual manip with every attack. At the very least though, Keyblade Wielders should have conceptual destruction since the Keyblade itself has a specific statement of being able to destroy darkness, Xehanort has conceptual Manipulation over light and darkness since he was going to make a balance of a world between the two and stole the light from Sora's heart, and Heartless should have conceptual manipulation for being able ti steal hearts.
 
Okay, I think we are confusing the meaning of "Conceptual Attacks" with "Casual Attacks" here.

We aren't arguing that Sora can kill conceptual beings with any hit. We are arguing that Sora and other Keyblade Wielders shouldn't be hitting everyone's concept with every attack, i.e constantly ignoring the durability of non-conceptual beings.
 
Alright lets drop the whole "conceptual attack" topic for now. Speedster brought up an interesting point about keyblade wielders being able to destroy darkness. If darkness has already been accepted as conceptual wouldn't that count for the conceptual destruction ability?
 
I worded that wrong. I meant that's what "causal attacks" would mean in the context you gave, but I'll drop Sora getting conceptual manipulation so that this discussion can go somewhere. Conceptual manipulation should be applied to the people I gave reasons for though.
 
TheSpeedster96 said:
When did anyone say solely his heart was left? The closest thing that was said was me saying that only his heart had remained at the time, one in a fractured state with his body in pieces as well.

Chirithy's statement does not go against the idea of his heart being in the Final World, which you claim it wasn't The "some kind of form" he was in was referring to the metaphysical state he was in at that point. Strelitzia even says that he had retained some sort of form as a heart, and questions if that was because he's special. https://youtu.be/yTGoKBw12Tk?t=7m8s

"You look like a person. How is it that you retain your appearance? Are you special?"

The summary of what has happened in Jiminy's journal outright states that his heart had survived destruction and that his body was in pieces as well.

https://www.khinsider.com/kingdom-hearts-3/worlds/keyblade-graveyard "He encountered a strange creature named Chirithy, who told him he was in The Final World. While Sora's heart had survived utter destruction, his physical form had been fragmented, and so he set about piecing himself back together."

If that's not enough, and since you didn't read the OP (I'm guessing), the counter that indicates how many "phantoms" are left shows his heart, meaning it too was clearly damaged. Riku, Mickey, Aqua, etc ALL had the same damaged appearance of Sora in the Final World, and we see the Lich Heartless taking their hearts. This entirely lines up with Chirithy saying he was hanging by a thread. https://youtu.be/0ShQFf2i_vA?t=3m40s

Yes, Kairi was the reason why he could pull himself back together, no one even denied that here.

@Dark @Cal Matt hasn't at all refuted the context behind Sora being in conceptual pieces other than "it's a metaphorical reasoning", or the other reasoning for the heart being conceptual. And not that I'm with in agreement with everyone getting abstract existence because of the heart, but it has been shown characters regen because of their own heart still existing due to it being the embodiment of their own self, which qualifies for Type 2 Abstract Existence. This would apply to very few people though, and it's not combat applicable.
Click to expand...
My point was the form Sora arrived in in The Final World ISN'T his Heart, given how Chirithy & Sora confirm what death is & that he experienced it. That said, I would like scans of that excerpt of Jiminy's Journal, please.

What makes that KH Insider's article you quoted objectively canon/accurate dialogue, as opposed to another fanmade summary?

And if you're quoting it says his physical form was destroyed, & then why are you asserting the pieces of himself were his Heart? Chirithy & Sora discuss his shattered self as if it's about getting his BODY back. I'd take that over an icon/symbol.

Not to mention, a lot of the phantoms are doing things a body would do, moving about in athletic ways, rather than say, emoting like a Heart might.

Yes, the Ultimania says:

"In the world of Kingdom Hearts, not restricted to just people and animals, but every existence contains a heart. The collection of all kinds of Hearts would become the great heart - Kingdom Hearts."

And Sora tells Young Xehanort that Baymax might be a robot, because YX has been experimenting to see what has Hearts (Toys, robots, etc.), that "There are Hearts all around us.", which, given the context, more likely refers to the Hearts of living beings.


Worlds do have Hearts, & automatons & toys & people & animals may have Hearts, but that's a far cry from "governing all reality" & "shaping everything"?

Does Gravity have a Heart? Does Stitch's spaceship have a Heart? Does water have a Heart? And so on & so forth.

And I'm pretty sure there've been characters on the Wiki where they exist conceptually, but can still be interacted with & destroyed on some level without NPI/Conceptual Manipulation. (Isn't that the case for some Outsiders in D&D?)

Just because they exist in a conceptual way doesn't mean they are entirely so. Their Heart might be, but their Body seems less so, for one.

And giving abilities like this to summons & world-exclusive partner Disney characters, based on KH original lore to the Disney characters has issues with crossover scaling.

When Sora talks with Strelitzia, he has a more clear form than he does when he entered TFW, presumably because he's gotten his body back. And Sora asks her "Who's Heart are you"? He doesn't look at all like a Heart like she does. I think it makes more sense that it's his body there.

The Somebody of a Nobody requires the Heart be free, too, which often requires the Heartless be destroyed, & a Heartless & Nobody tend to be created simeultaneously. That Type 8 is very conditional, if it can be accepted at all.


And beings being able to harm Heartless or Nobodies without a Keyblade or NPI more likely means the authors neglected an explanation because of game mechanics, like wanting guest star party members to be able to hurt them, rather than because, say, Mulan or Jack Sparrow have innately similar abilities to the Keyblade's.
 
Gonna mention this part:

"Does Gravity have a Heart? Does Stitch's spaceship have a Heart? Does water have a Heart? And so on & so forth."

Since planets are shown to have hearts in KH lore and literal data can gain hearts of their own, that wouldn't be out of left field to assume even those have hearts.
 
It might be difficult to prove, & that still leaves everything that isn't a world, an animate being (toy, robot, animal, person, etc.) & such. Temperatures, radiation, etc.

I don't think we've seen enough proven to assume EVERYTHING is governed by a Heart, let alone all of reality.

Heck, there are beings & forces that can exist WITHOUT Hearts, aren't there?
 
It's not really difficult cause the world itself is an inanimate existence yet it has a heart. Yes and guess what those beings without hearts are addressed as? Non-existent.
 
Darkness exists, yet does the whole Realm of Darkness have a Heart? Do Pureblood Heartless have a Heart? Does the Dark Ocean have a Heart?

Heck, what about the Unversed? They're just emotions, & born from Vanitas, who is the Darkness of a Heart.

And there are things that exist outside of worlds. There's the barriers that divide worlds, & the Gummi they're made of, the lanes between, & all the space you fly to between worlds. They aren't part of the Worlds.
 
"My point was the form Sora arrived in in The Final World ISN'T his Heart, given how Chirithy & Sora confirm what death is & that he experienced it. That said, I would like scans of that excerpt of Jiminy's Journal, please."

Your own point doesn't even fit with Chirithy's context since he gives what happeeds to Sora, he never implies that Sora's heart didn't make it to the Final World either.

"What makes that KH Insider's article you quoted objectively canon/accurate dialogue, as opposed to another fanmade summary?" It's a direct summary from the game under "The Story So Far" for a world. The only reason why I linked it was because there isn't a YouTube video that goes over the summary of the world, and I couldn't find a way to directly screenshot it, but I'll use a camera to show that it actually states it. "And if you're quoting it says his physical form was destroyed, & then why are you asserting the pieces of himself were his Heart? Chirithy & Sora discuss his shattered self as if it's about getting his BODY back. I'd take that over an icon/symbol." Because my point was that both his heart and body were damaged, which you clearly missed me saying. His fractured selves clearly go with restoring his heart as well, that's the entire point of his heart being used as the counter.

"Not to mention, a lot of the phantoms are doing things a body would do, moving about in athletic ways, rather than say, emoting like a Heart might"

This is now just a huge hasty generalization. You're implying that the phantoms have their own hearts when literally everything points to them being fractured versions of Sora.

"And Sora tells Young Xehanort that Baymax might be a robot, because YX has been experimenting to see what has Hearts (Toys, robots, etc.), that "There are Hearts all around us.", which, given the context, more likely refers to the Hearts of living beings." So how does this remotely prove your point? That just further proves literally everything having a heart. Robots, toys, machines, etc aren't living things yet they're proven to have a heart.

"Worlds do have Hearts, & automatons & toys & people & animals may have Hearts, but that's a far cry from "governing all reality" & "shaping everything"?" Hearts literally contain the concepts of light and darkness, which what makes up reality. A world's heart contains everything possible idea inside of it, so they do govern reality.

"Does Gravity have a Heart? Does Stitch's spaceship have a Heart? Does water have a Heart? And so on & so forth."

Actually yeah they would given all the statements, and how is this relevant to your point? Xemnas himself states that Nobodies, non existent beings who lack hearts are capable of growing them.

"And I'm pretty sure there've been characters on the Wiki where they exist conceptually, but can still be interacted with & destroyed on some level without NPI/Conceptual Manipulation. (Isn't that the case for some Outsiders in D&D?)"

If they can be destroyed without NPI or conceptual manipulation, then they're a type 3 abstract. We've already established Heartless are just the hearts themselves.

"Just because they exist in a conceptual way doesn't mean they are entirely so. Their Heart might be, but their Body seems less so, for one." When did I ever say their body exists in a conceptual way?

"And giving abilities like this to summons & world-exclusive partner Disney characters, based on KH original lore to the Disney characters has issues with crossover scaling." I never agreed to adding those towards the characters, but Disney characters clearly exist as a separate lore then their original counterparts. I'm not defending them scaling or whatever though. "When Sora talks with Strelitzia, he has a more clear form than he does when he entered TFW, presumably because he's gotten his body back. And Sora asks her "Who's Heart are you"? He doesn't look at all like a Heart like she does. I think it makes more sense that it's his body there." Barely the upper half of his body is complete, and you can still see that he lacks a complete form. Sora being partially completed doesn't make this point any less relevant. And he probably doesn't look like a heart because he's literally stated to have kept some form of himself. "The Somebody of a Nobody requires the Heart be free, too, which often requires the Heartless be destroyed, & a Heartless & Nobody tend to be created simeultaneously. That Type 8 is very conditional, if it can be accepted at all." Once again, it has been stated multiple times this wouldn't be combat applicable if accepted.

"And beings being able to harm Heartless or Nobodies without a Keyblade or NPI more likely means the authors neglected an explanation because of game mechanics, like wanting guest star party members to be able to hurt them, rather than because, say, Mulan or Jack Sparrow have innately similar abilities to the Keyblade's."

I'm not going to bring up/defend Disney characters who are bound to just a world on this thread, but there are non Keyblade Wielders such as Donald and Goofy who can harm Nobodies and Heartless without a Keyblade. Magic has literally been shown inverse to do this.
 
Imaginym said:
Darkness exists, yet does the whole Realm of Darkness have a Heart? Do Pureblood Heartless have a Heart? Does the Dark Ocean have a Heart?

Heck, what about the Unversed? They're just emotions, & born from Vanitas, who is the Darkness of a Heart.

And there are things that exist outside of worlds. There's the barriers that divide worlds, & the Gummi they're made of, the lanes between, & all the space you fly to between worlds. They aren't part of the Worlds.
Click to expand...
You're literally just nitpicking plot holes at this point, which KH is already known for. This doesn't debunk actual canon lore. Also, Pureblood Heartless are just the hearts of people who were naturally corrupted by darkness. It's made clear in the Ansem Reports.
 
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