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Kingdom Hearts: The "Heart" is actually abstract
- Thread starter Bobsican
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- 423
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Abstract Existence Type 2, Immortality Types 3 and 8, Mid Godly Regen, and immunity to Soul Manipulation should be added to all current Heartless profiles as well.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,625
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- Thread starter
- #324
Thankfully there are only a few for that as of now, Demon Tide, Lich (Kingdom Hearts) and Ansem, and I´m sure those were already accepted, so you can go ahead and add the edits for that. The Concept Manip resistance scaling thing still needs input, however.
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Since NPI was accepted through characters being able to interact with Heartless, shouldn't they get Non-Corporeality?
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We brought it back up again and there hasn't been a rebuttal yet.Mr. Bambu said:
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Ctrl F conceptual, that's what was brought back up. Mid-Godly would just be an effect of hearts being conceptual.
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That was supporting info, did you read the rest?
>Sora was in conceptual pieces, and I provided an in-game statement frkn the journal of it being legit
>He survived due to Kairi purely protecting his heart
>Hearts govern existence
>The heart is the most fundamental part of your existence
>Anything lacking a heart is non existent in a literal sense
>Sora was in conceptual pieces, and I provided an in-game statement frkn the journal of it being legit
>He survived due to Kairi purely protecting his heart
>Hearts govern existence
>The heart is the most fundamental part of your existence
>Anything lacking a heart is non existent in a literal sense
Mr. Bambu
Suffer-Not-Injustice Bambu
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1. The conceptually in pieces thing was like the first couple of responses and, based on what we now know about the Heart (that is to say, it is the concept of self), then... this is moot? Literally referring to the same thing that's been debunked, you can't just see the word Concept and scream Mid-Godly and Conceptual hax.
2. Excellent, but again, that supporting info is still the thing this hinges on.
3. Hearts govern existence is based on this, which is once again entirely moot since, quoting you, this is conceptual because you claim the Heart holds the concepts of Light and Darkness, which isn't true as it doesn't state this. Merely having light/darkness in one's concept of self can mean oh so many things.
4. The concept of oneself does not actually imply losing that is equatable to Mid-Godly, my friend.
5. The only explanation for giving them NEP is "It is generally agreed upon" and the idea that the Heartless don't have that sense of self. In fact that Ansem note thing even states Heartless have a physical form.
He then goes on to say that if there are two forms and only one Heart, one must not exist- but this doesn't change the fact that they do indeed possess a physicality, so they aren't NEP. They just don't have the Heart, the concept of self. Again and again the lore (as painful as it is to read it) refers to nonexistence as a state where your heart is not present, in which you have lost your sense of self and seemingly just run on Hate because this is Disney. At no point does it contradict the whole "you actually have a body lmao".
2. Excellent, but again, that supporting info is still the thing this hinges on.
3. Hearts govern existence is based on this, which is once again entirely moot since, quoting you, this is conceptual because you claim the Heart holds the concepts of Light and Darkness, which isn't true as it doesn't state this. Merely having light/darkness in one's concept of self can mean oh so many things.
4. The concept of oneself does not actually imply losing that is equatable to Mid-Godly, my friend.
5. The only explanation for giving them NEP is "It is generally agreed upon" and the idea that the Heartless don't have that sense of self. In fact that Ansem note thing even states Heartless have a physical form.
| 'Where does the body go when it separates from the heart? If the soul remains within the body, is it still considered to be deceased? When the heart returns to the Heartless, the physical form disappears. But that is merely true in this world. Perhaps the body exists in another form in another world.' | ||
~ Ansem's Report 13 |
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I already said no to Mid-Godly because even without their heart, they'd still have their souls. Mid-Godly can only work when there's no soul or other abstract concept left whatsoever, yet Regenerationn is still possible. It's what separates Low Godly from Mid Godly.
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"1. The conceptually in pieces thing was like the first couple of responses and, based on what we now know about the Heart (that is to say, it is the concept of self), then... this is moot? Literally referring to the same thing that's been debunked, you can't just see the word Concept and scream Mid-Godly and Conceptual hax."
Point out how the conceptual in pieces scan was debunked, because the same refute of "lol it's metaphorical" has been said without addressing the other scans I posted relating to the conceptual pieces. And no, literally no one has argued that on the thread. The entire point of the conceptual pieces was to justify the heart being conceptual, NOT seeing the word 'concept and immediately assuming nothing else. Sora's physical body was in conceptual pieces, and he held on purely because of his heart surviving.
"3. Hearts govern existence is based on this, which is once again entirely moot since, quoting you, this is conceptual because you claim the Heart holds the concepts of Light and Darkness, which isn't true as it doesn't state this. Merely having light/darkness in one's concept of self can mean oh so many things."
The memorial Ultimania states every that has an existence contains a heart, literally everything. Those same hearts contain light and darkness which is stated to be true so many times.
Nomura himself states that everything contains a heart. https://www.khwiki.com/Director's_Secret_Report_XIII#Part_1_-_ABOUT_THE_WORLD_OF_KINGDOM_HEARTS
The Memorial Ultimania states this too. https://m.imgur.com/a/uajMYOt
Yensid talks about light and darkness in the heart. https://youtu.be/XKW6ylmmWvo
Xehanort outright states that Kingdom Hearts created the light within people's hearts, and darkness grew within them. https://youtu.be/AoAb_Scz-FM?t=1m20s
Heartless are the literal embodiment of darkness in people's hearts. https://imgur.com/a/ihV3XWO
You can read the entirety of the Xehanort reports and see that Xehanort himself talks about light and darkness being in hearts, and he states everything is fundamental to them existing. No light without darkness and vice versa. https://www.khwiki.com/Xehanort's_Report
I can quite literally list dozens of other examples of light and darkness being in the heart.
"4. The concept of oneself does not actually imply losing that is equatable to Mid-Godly, my friend."
Uh you realize that the Mid-Godly would come from Heartless regenerating from their heart, right? We've literally seen them reform from them before.
"5. The only explanation for giving them NEP is "It is generally agreed upon" and the idea that the Heartless don't have that sense of self. In fact that Ansem note thing even states Heartless have a physical form."
Legitimately don't know what you're even trying to argue here. Nobodies are the non existent ones because they lack a heart, and they're repeatedly stated to not exist. The entire plot of KH2 was for them to recreate KH so that they could exist again.
"He then goes on to say that if there are two forms and only one Heart, one must not exist- but this doesn't change the fact that they do indeed possess a physicality, so they aren't NEP. They just don't have the Heart, the concept of self. Again and again the lore (as painful as it is to read it) refers to nonexistence as a state where your heart is not present, in which you have lost your sense of self and seemingly just run on Hate because this is Disney. At no point does it contradict the whole "you actually have a body lmao"."
Seriously, not to be rude, but did you even bother reading the secret reports of further into report 13? Because Ansem literally goes onto say that the physical body left is shell of its former self and doesn't exist. He literally referring to what Nobodies are in that. The entire plot of KH2 talks about Nobodies being existence.
Yensid states Nobodies don't exist. https://youtu.be/N5Nn9hSXCOc
Diz states Nobodies don't exist. https://youtu.be/ZZuRSS4pW9k
Point out how the conceptual in pieces scan was debunked, because the same refute of "lol it's metaphorical" has been said without addressing the other scans I posted relating to the conceptual pieces. And no, literally no one has argued that on the thread. The entire point of the conceptual pieces was to justify the heart being conceptual, NOT seeing the word 'concept and immediately assuming nothing else. Sora's physical body was in conceptual pieces, and he held on purely because of his heart surviving.
"3. Hearts govern existence is based on this, which is once again entirely moot since, quoting you, this is conceptual because you claim the Heart holds the concepts of Light and Darkness, which isn't true as it doesn't state this. Merely having light/darkness in one's concept of self can mean oh so many things."
The memorial Ultimania states every that has an existence contains a heart, literally everything. Those same hearts contain light and darkness which is stated to be true so many times.
Nomura himself states that everything contains a heart. https://www.khwiki.com/Director's_Secret_Report_XIII#Part_1_-_ABOUT_THE_WORLD_OF_KINGDOM_HEARTS
The Memorial Ultimania states this too. https://m.imgur.com/a/uajMYOt
Yensid talks about light and darkness in the heart. https://youtu.be/XKW6ylmmWvo
Xehanort outright states that Kingdom Hearts created the light within people's hearts, and darkness grew within them. https://youtu.be/AoAb_Scz-FM?t=1m20s
Heartless are the literal embodiment of darkness in people's hearts. https://imgur.com/a/ihV3XWO
You can read the entirety of the Xehanort reports and see that Xehanort himself talks about light and darkness being in hearts, and he states everything is fundamental to them existing. No light without darkness and vice versa. https://www.khwiki.com/Xehanort's_Report
I can quite literally list dozens of other examples of light and darkness being in the heart.
"4. The concept of oneself does not actually imply losing that is equatable to Mid-Godly, my friend."
Uh you realize that the Mid-Godly would come from Heartless regenerating from their heart, right? We've literally seen them reform from them before.
"5. The only explanation for giving them NEP is "It is generally agreed upon" and the idea that the Heartless don't have that sense of self. In fact that Ansem note thing even states Heartless have a physical form."
Legitimately don't know what you're even trying to argue here. Nobodies are the non existent ones because they lack a heart, and they're repeatedly stated to not exist. The entire plot of KH2 was for them to recreate KH so that they could exist again.
"He then goes on to say that if there are two forms and only one Heart, one must not exist- but this doesn't change the fact that they do indeed possess a physicality, so they aren't NEP. They just don't have the Heart, the concept of self. Again and again the lore (as painful as it is to read it) refers to nonexistence as a state where your heart is not present, in which you have lost your sense of self and seemingly just run on Hate because this is Disney. At no point does it contradict the whole "you actually have a body lmao"."
Seriously, not to be rude, but did you even bother reading the secret reports of further into report 13? Because Ansem literally goes onto say that the physical body left is shell of its former self and doesn't exist. He literally referring to what Nobodies are in that. The entire plot of KH2 talks about Nobodies being existence.
Yensid states Nobodies don't exist. https://youtu.be/N5Nn9hSXCOc
Diz states Nobodies don't exist. https://youtu.be/ZZuRSS4pW9k
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@Sera Heartless are the only ones getting Mid-Godly as they lack souls.
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Seriously though, this thread has been going on way too long with back and forth on conceptual stuff. Can we just find a middle ground and conclude this thread already?
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I haven't looked at the pages in forever, and don't have the time to go check them all to see what powers they should/shouldn't have.
I can collab with The Everlasting off site after we're finished with FFXIII revisions to review the KH stuff.
I will say Xehanort with the X-Blade should probably be 3-A via hax (concept rewrite) and Kingdom Hearts rather than outright 3-A, as I don't think he has 3-A energy since Sora with no power boost was able to beat him (with only an attack from KH itself one-shotting him) but that can be discussed some other time.
I can collab with The Everlasting off site after we're finished with FFXIII revisions to review the KH stuff.
I will say Xehanort with the X-Blade should probably be 3-A via hax (concept rewrite) and Kingdom Hearts rather than outright 3-A, as I don't think he has 3-A energy since Sora with no power boost was able to beat him (with only an attack from KH itself one-shotting him) but that can be discussed some other time.
Mr. Bambu
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I just got back but I agree, this has gone on for too long. A new thread should be made with the current active suggested revisions. Don't go for the middle ground that doesn't find any ounce of accuracy.
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