Kingdom Hearts: Re:Vising the Cosmology

[AxisPowerRanger]

The concept of hyperspace has various definitions in scientific literature and popular culture. It is important to note that in order to fully understand the context of this concept as it is presented in the series in question (canonically as it should be introduced in the series), it is necessary to determine which specific definition of hyperspace is being utilized.

I acknowledge that the individual identified as @Everything12 may have a valid perspective on this issue, and it would be beneficial to consider their thoughts and arguments in relation to this matter.

Beep boop

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I express a high degree of neutrality regarding the question of whether the specific terms in question are explained in more depth within any established canon

It’s pretty blatant. An interspace is defined as the space between things. The Ocean Between is described as:

There are two ways to travel, one of which is to use a Gummi Ship like Sora and his friends do to move through the "Ocean Between", the space studded with all the worlds.

— Director’s Secret Report

And once more, by Xehanort:

The World is vast—and the worlds within the greater World, uncountable. Like little islands, they dot a great Ocean Between which keeps them ignorant of each other, uncorrupted.

— Xehanort’s Report II

Not much to argue there.

Disagree, this is high 3-A

No, it isn’t. It’s an infinite space that distances and embeds other worlds, confirmed to have their own differentiated space-time. Space-time is already defined as infinite by conception, that’s the difference between 3-A, High 3-A, and Low 2-C. In order to have another infinity compass another, the smallest infinity is uncountable, substantiated by the fact it is directly called a hyperspace.

The concept of a separate flow of time, while distinct from the idea of multiple timelines, does not inherently confer any benefit. The distinction between the two concepts should be clearly understood, as they have fundamentally different implications for understanding temporal phenomena. The notion of a separate flow of time implies a distinct and independent progression of events, whereas the concept of multiple timelines suggests the possibility of a parallel or alternate reality.

Therefore, it is important to be precise in the usage of these terms, and to consider their implications in any analysis or discussion of temporal phenomena.

All of this is easily debunked when you, once again, take a look at the established tiering system:

Characters or objects that are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums (the entire past, present and future of 3-dimensional space) of a universal scale. However, it can be more generally fulfilled by any 4-dimensional space that is either:

And as Riku, Joshua, and Xehanort mention, each world has a differentiated time flow from each other.

It is asserted with a high degree of conviction that the term in question is not adequately explained within the context of its canonicity. It is essential to have a clear and accurate understanding of the terms used within the canon of this verse. The failure to provide a clear explanation of a term within the context of canonicity raises significant concerns regarding the validity and usefulness of the term in the analysis of the fictional universe in question. As such, it is imperative that any claims or arguments made in relation to the term are supported by an understanding of the canonicity of the works in question, to ensure the credibility of the analysis.

You provided effectively no reason to substantiate why my evidence doesn’t fit the bill, meanwhile I already enforced my point, which I’ll restate:

The actual definition of hyperspace is as such:

In science fiction, hyperspace (also known as nulspace, subspace, overspace, jumpspace and similar terms) is a concept relating to higher dimensions as well as parallel universes and a faster-than-light (FTL) method of interstellar travel.

And as I’ve shown here, it fulfills the interstellar travel portion:

There are two ways to travel, one of which is to use a Gummi Ship like Sora and his friends do to move through the "Ocean Between", the space studded with all the worlds.

— Director’s Secret Report

Space-time is inherently accepted as 4-D, and infinitely superior to a 3-D dimensional space on this site, the tiering system says as much.

Characters or objects that are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space.

Joshua and Riku in KH3D prove that every world operates under a different space-time, stating each world has separate flows of time, and again, by Xehanort, in Dark Road, with Ansem undeniably calling the space “infinite”, in comparison to the “small worlds”, which are entire space-times. There is no way to hand wave this, he objectively refers to the worlds embedded in the Ocean as infinitesimal compared to the greater bulk.

I express with the utmost conviction that I completely disagree with the assertion that the current concept under examination is indicative of infinite speed.

And for what reason.

Lastly, I think I can confidently say for the onlookers and those I’m currently discussing with in relation to this thread: Stop talking like a IT desk manager.

I have no issue responding to counterarguments, but every single other person who has disagreed, or even agreed with my premise, has kept it concise, and simple. I spent way longer than I needed to respond to this because of your excessive need to grab the longest word instead of the most colloquially accepted one, and string it together into a frankly, pretentious word salad. You didn’t talk like this before, so I don’t know what gives.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I will still maintain my position that the concept of a separate flow of time is not equivalent to the idea of multiple timelines.

I need to note that you are using scientific terms, which is not in accordance with the guidelines set forth by the vsbattle wiki.

The utilization of scientific terms in this context may lead to confusion or inaccuracies, and therefore I consider it important to consider the appropriateness of such language within the given context. Therefore, it is respectfully suggested that in order to maintain a high degree of accuracy and precision in the discourse, the terms that have been officially explained and established within the canon of this verse in question should be applied.

No, it isn’t. It’s an infinite space that distances and embeds other worlds, confirmed to have their own differentiated space-time.

I respectfully request that further evidence be obtained, as the information currently provided does not contain the requested premise.

Also, thanks for your compliment. In order to ensure that my perspective on the matter under discussion in this thread is clearly understood, I would like to state that I am in disagreement with the proposal of immeasurable speed, however, I maintain a neutral stance on the question of tier classification.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I would like to extend my best wishes for a pleasant evening and a restful night to all those participating in this thread. Good Night!

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I will still maintain my position that the concept of a separate flow of time is not equivalent to the idea of multiple timelines.

Prove it, then. I’ve given my evidence, substantiated my claim, now you debunk it.

I need to note that you are using scientific terms, which is not in accordance with the guidelines set forth by the vsbattle wiki.

The entire tiering system is utilizing scientific terms.

The utilization of scientific terms in this context may lead to confusion or inaccuracies, and therefore I consider it important to consider the appropriateness of such language within the given context.

Prove it, I’ve given evidence to the contrary that supports my stance.

I respectfully request that further evidence be obtained, as the information currently provided does not contain the requested premise.

No, you disprove the evidence that I’ve used to substantiate my claim, instead of requesting I fill your arbitrary bar. I don’t have to grab more evidence if you’ve failed to debunk mine.

Also, thanks for your compliment.

It wasn’t.

In order to ensure that my perspective on the matter under discussion in this thread is clearly understood, I would like to state that I am in disagreement with the proposal of immeasurable speed, however, I maintain a neutral stance on the question of tier classification.

You assert that the Ocean Between is only H3-A, and not a hyperspace, you can’t exactly be neutral with those two points.

 

[ThanatosX]

I will still maintain my position that the concept of a separate flow of time is not equivalent to the idea of multiple timelines.

If you are claiming that the Worlds are not Universes, than I suggest you to read the blog linked by Bob some comments ago. The notion that Worlds are Universes is already accepted by our wiki and is the reason the characters are 2-A in the first place. The evidences of that are already in the CRT in which the proposal was accepted.
This revision is for another completely different thing, so if you disagree with the Worlds being Universes than this is not the place for discussing that.
Also, the Ocean Between is already accepted to be at the very least 2-A, claiming that it's only High 3-A means that you are ignoring the previously accepted CRT for some reason.

 

[ImmortalDread]

If you are claiming that the Worlds are not Universes, than I suggest you to read the blog linked by Bob some comments ago. The notion that Worlds are Universes is already accepted by our wiki and is the reason the characters are 2-A in the first place. The evidences of that are already in the CRT in which the proposal was accepted.
This revision is for another completely different thing, so if you disagree with the Worlds being Universes than this is not the place for discussing that.

Universes as in space-time continuum? Then infinite space can be qualified for 2-A.

I respectfully question how it can be classified as low 1-C.

I observe that the original definition of terms used in this discussion has not been officially explained within the context of the story, unless there is evidence to the contrary, which is currently not readily apparent to me.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

To be entirely honest, I find this to be less complicated than what some people seem to perceive this as (This is not me attempting to bash on anyone, for the record).
I would like to quote the Low 1-C section of our Tiering System Page

"Characters or objects that can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)"

So, we can surmise that a space that is a Higher Level of Infinity than a Low 2-C structure would coincide with Low 1-C's definition according to our Wiki. At the present moment, the KH Verse is 2-A, with according to Bob's presently accepted Blog, at least two instances of Low 2-C structure's existing within the Ocean Between. And as there are statements of these structure's being Infinitesimally Small compared to the spaces between the world, these Spaces should qualify as being a Higher Level of infinite than those structure's, which as I have outlined before, should qualify for textbook Low 1-C according to the Tiering System Page.

If there is any inherently faulty logic in my statement, then I would like to have some feedback on why exactly my statement of this Space being the same as what we have outlined as Qualifying for Low 1-C.

 

[ThanatosX]

I will explain a bit better my point of view since I think I expressed my opinion a bit quickly.
Using our Tiering System FAQ, "When are higher dimensions valid, then?":

"One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc."

As you can see, it talks about "four-dimensional spacetime continuum", this spacetime continuum just needs to be four dimensional, and a Low 2-C structure is 4D too by definition. So the notion that a 5-D space need to infinitely bigger than a 2-A structure is false, it needs to be infinitely bigger than a 4-D structure, which is different. And this is also further supported by the comment of TheKingStrategist13, which points out how even in our Tiering system Low 2-C is used as an example rather than 2-A.
So, destroying an infinite amount of Universe is a 2-A feat, but when there is a Infinite space connecting those Universes, that's when the feat becomes more impressive, since it will add an additional dimensional axis (in the form of the infinite space) to the already 4-D Universes. Obviously, the additional dimensional axis needs to be infitely bigger than the lower one, but in this case we have a clear statement that confirms it.
In KH we have the Ocean Between, which is infinite in size and contains entire 4-D structures structures inside of it, which appears as infinitesimal compared to it. The Ocean Between is the dimensional axis that contains the 4-D Universes. It being called an hyperspace is just the cherry on the top.
Overall, I will restate my agreement with the Low 1-C rating.

 

[Quantu]

I mean, Low 1-C looks pretty clear. An infinite sized location containing 4-D structures as infinitesimal parts of it should definitely qualify, as per the part of the Tiering System FAQ quoted above me.

 

[Delta333]

Agree with low 1-C as 4-D structure being embedded within infinite higher dimension (which is same as hyperspace) should be enough according to our standard, plus it sounds like this space functions as a connection between worlds so that makes it fifth coordinates which defines the position of timelines relative to each other.

Neutral with immeasurable speed because I have no idea what's the point here.

 

[DarkGrath]

I commented on this matter a bit before this CRT was released on Discord, so for posterities sake, I'll reiterate what I've stated.

I think Low 1-C is perfectly fine, within my understanding of the Low 1-C standards. The premises, when boiled down to the important and relevant information, are surprisingly straightforward for a tier 1 justification:

• The "Ocean Between" is stated to have all the worlds in it.
• The "Ocean Between" is stated to be infinite in size.
• Each world is stated to be a separate space-time.
• Ergo, the "Ocean Between" is an infinite space that contains every space-time in the cosmology.
• Ergo, the "Ocean Between" is a tier 1 structure.

Unless there is something, somewhere I drastically misunderstand, I think this is a valid argument where every premise is adequately justified by the game's sources. Even with a lack of knowledge on the verse as a whole, and my general sceptical approach to these revisions, I really can't nitpick any issues with this.

The infinite/immeasurable speed matter is a bit trickier to discern. I've talked briefly about it over Discord, but I need more time to analyse it in-depth before I can give a clear opinion. From what I can see, though, I don't believe this fits our immeasurable speed standards, and it might fit our infinite speed standards, so consider me in disagreement of the former and neutral on the latter for now.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

All we await now is Ultima. Thank you for all the help.

 

[Abu2411]

Agree with Low 1-C, it's very straightforward.

As for traversing the Ocean Between, this seems to be Infinite speed at first glance. Doesn't seem like Immeasurable speed but I'm still open on that.

 

[Comicgyal]

Disagree FRA.

But seriously, I’m fine with the proposed tier upgrades. Neutral on immeasurable, but infinite seems fine as a bare minimum.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

I'm not knowledgeable on the verse, but I think the evidence presented for Low 1-C is relatively cut-and-dry. I'm neutral on immeasurable, though I agree with infinite speed as an alternative.

 

[Tarang123]

Staying neutral here, but leaning towards agreeing. Actually, I'll agree with the Low 1C stuff. Seems to make sense based on what I can see. I'm neutral towards the speed stuff.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I personally think that Everything12 seems to make sense here.

Can you explain to me what personally makes sense to you?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

If anyone has any doubts about different worlds having different timelines, then they can look up the KH3D link in the OP where Riku outright states that different time axises are involved. He also speaks of different worlds having different flows of time as something obvious which in my opinion would make the most sense with different universes especially as Joshua mentions parallel worlds in the same conversation like it is nothing special. The worlds having their own separate time axises would imply that the Ocean Between itself wouldn't share its own time axis that it runs on with the worlds contained within it unless it has similar properties to the Realm of Darkness which has been stated to not have time. The terms Other Sky, Interspace and Hyperspace can be considered to support the idea of the Ocean Between space being on some level fundamentally different from the space contained in a world and the Ocean Between is visually distinct compared to outer space though the terms alone do indeed not mean much without an elaboration.

I don't have a particularly strong position regarding Low 1-C since I'm not entirely sure about the standards but I don't dislike the idea of an upgrade based on the cosmology and wouldn't oppose it either. The Ocean Between being that much bigger than the worlds it contains is an idea that crossed my mind multiple times in the past and makes sense for me but an upgrade using that would need to fulfill the requirements. I'm not sure regarding Immeasurable or Infinite for speed since I don't think that we have a confirmation regarding the temporal properties of the Ocean Between but any travel that happens inside of it does technically occur outside of the temporal axises of the individual worlds and we also have characters being able to move in the Realm of Darkness which is stated to lack time on top of that and movement in the Realm of Darkness is already part of the justification for the Time Stop Resistance many Kingdom Hearts characters have on their profiles.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you explain to me what personally makes sense to you?

I do not remember anymore. I read it yesterday, and have had many tasks since then. However, although DarkGrath also seemed to make sense above, I thought that a space containing an infinite number of worlds is 2-A without further specifications.

 

[Antvasima]

Then I disagree. Being infinitely bigger than Low 2-C structures is at best 2-A, not Low 1-C.

Does it ever detail what a hyperspace means in the series. Because we do not use scientific and mathematical concepts that the series in question does not give descriptions that match it's proper meaning.

This is not sufficient evidence to prove that they are equivalent to actual hyperspaces. You would need an actual description that matches how it's described in science.

As far as this is concerned this is simple a fancy name to describe the space between universes and not grounds for Tier 1.

As far as the wiki is concerned. If you (that being the series in questions) want to use scientific terms then you have got to put in the effort to prove you know what your talking about and aren't just using them as a fancy name for a different concept.

I rechecked, and these do seem to be valid concerns, unless other members have provided valid clarifications regarding these issues afterwards.

 

[Abu2411]

I do not remember anymore. I read it yesterday, and have had many tasks since then. However, although DarkGrath also seemed to make sense above, I thought that a space containing an infinite number of worlds is 2-A without further specifications.

The way in which the Ocean Between encompasses the worlds offers it a degree of qualitative superiority. It is infinite, even in comparison to an "uncountable" amount of worlds each with their own space-time. it is Xehanort's details on this that give us this information explicitly.

Because of this, the Ocean Between would be on a level of infinity greater than the uncountable worlds (which is a tier 2 structure).

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. If that is correct, I personally do not mind a Low 1-C rating for the cosmology then.

 

[ImmortalDread]

After receiving additional clarification from @Nehz_XZX, I have altered my position to concur with the assessment of low 1-C. However, I still disagree with the categorization of immeasurable speed. The original post failed to mention that the flow's time factor includes the time axis, which has resolved my previous concern.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Low 1-C is fine by me. We already assume that the space in which spacetimes are displaced is 5-D, at present. Add that to the space in question here being explicitly described as infinite and the worlds as "small" compared to it, and you have a fairly straightforward case.

I don't think the 2-A option is terribly logical either, after mulling it over: 2-A would imply that universes in KH are displaced over 4-D space, which doesn't work when parallelism of any two objects by definition requires an extra axis: For two line segments to be parallel, you'd have to set it so they wouldn't touch regardless of how far they are extended, which wouldn't be possible if they stood side-by-side in 1-D space as in here, meaning you would need them to be displaced over a plane. Same thing happens with planes: For them to be parallel, they shouldn't ever be able to meet, so you'd need them to be displaced over 3-D space. Generalizing that to the 4-D case, spacetimes would obviously have to be displaced over a 5-D region (This works by definition, too: If they're different spacetime continuums then obviously they can't share the same space, in the way 3-D objects exist around us for instance)

Although I'd say that it being called a "hyperspace" obviously isn't particularly strong evidence for Low 1-C. Hyperspace is one of those terms that was coopted into other contexts to the point that it's not really a strictly technical term anymore, like what happened with "laser," so discretion is obviously needed when looking at a statement that uses the term.

No opinion on Immeasurable. Not too sure how universe-crossing feats are treated in this context.

 

[Vietthai96]

I do not remember anymore. I read it yesterday, and have had many tasks since then. However, although DarkGrath also seemed to make sense above, I thought that a space containing an infinite number of worlds is 2-A without further specifications.

Depend, for a cosmology, sure a space contain 2-A is already 2-A, however if there is sufficient evidences to prove said space in question is superior space, then it is enough for Low 1-C, since like what Ultima said, you can't some how have something superior to a 2-A yet still being 2-A. Which in this case there is sufficient evidences for Low 1-C such as Hyperspace statement

Although I'd say that it being called a "hyperspace" obviously isn't particularly strong evidence for Low 1-A

Wut, typo bro??

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Wut, typo bro??

Woke up like 2 hours ago. Lay off me.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

No opinion on Immeasurable. Not too sure how universe-crossing feats are treated in this context.

Don’t care to fight for immeasurable, but infinite speed is fairly unshakable here. The Ocean Between is infinite in size in comparison to the other worlds that inhabit it, and multiple characters are shown capable of crossing, reacting, and fighting whilst in it.

Examples of this include Ventus, from Birth by Sleep, actively fighting one of Vanitas’ weaker Unversed, whilst traveling between worlds. Terra replicates this feat, too, and utilizing that exact same glider in combat, against Sora.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Why would this be immeasurable speed? Enlighten me. The Vsbattle itself said that crossing between worlds is no argument for it.

 

[Abu2411]

Why would this be immeasurable speed? Enlighten me. The Vsbattle itself said that crossing between worlds is no argument for it.

He's arguing it's Infinite speed, not Immeasurable because they are fighting while crossing an infinite distance, in a finite amount of time.

 

[ImmortalDread]

No? OP suggests immeasurable speed.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Don’t care to fight for immeasurable, but infinite speed is fairly unshakable here.

You can very clearly see I switched my goal here.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Don’t care to fight for immeasurable, but infinite speed is fairly unshakable here. The Ocean Between is infinite in size in comparison to the other worlds that inhabit it, and multiple characters are shown capable of crossing, reacting, and fighting whilst in it.

Do you have an example? The distance between two worlds in the Ocean Between doesn't necessarily have to be infinite.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Do you have an example? The distance between two worlds in the Ocean Between doesn't necessarily have to be infinite.

The Ocean is what keeps them apart.

The World is vast—and the worlds within the greater World, uncountable. Like little islands, they dot a great Ocean Between which keeps them ignorant of each other, uncorrupted.

— Xehanort’s Report II

And again, when he asserts the space is not only infinite, but it surrounds the small world. I find it hard to believe there’s just this… small, literal infinitesimal gap that they use to bypass the infinity that is the Ocean Between. It just doesn’t seem substantiated by anything in or out of context.

 

[ImmortalDread]

You can very clearly see I switched my goal here.

I concur with the concept of infinite speed in the context of this discussion, provided that the distance between the two words in question is infinite.

 

[Eseseso]

What have you done?

I agree with the OP

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

I would like to quickly clarify that from what I've seen, it seems most people Agree with Low 1-C given the clarification that has been provided, Most are either Neutral on or don't agree with Immeasurable, and that a Number of People who don't agree with Immesurable Seem fine or in agreeance with Infinite (Though not all). This is correct, yes?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Correct

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

The argument for Infinite Speed seems to be this:
Using evidence directly taken from the OP, from Translated Japanese Material: "Is there a myriad of these substances floating in the infinite space that surrounds this small world?”
Indicating that surrounding the Worlds is a Infinite Space, wherein the Infinite space's of each world are contained, as we had already discussed and mostly concluded. While one could make the argument that as per the Map's in each game, there is a displayed distance between each world that can vary, that seems more made for player convenience/gameplay than anything else, and the lore implication seems to be that even surrounding a single world is a infinite space. If you divide infinite by half, it's still infinite- The idea of a arbitrary distance within infinite between two infinitely sized worlds within a infinitely sized plane, rather than a infinite distance, doesn't exactly rub me right, either.

As for Immeasurable, I'm not sure if we have as strong a case there at all. The idea seems to rely on Time and what not, but even the last time we attempted to use a similar argument (Back with the Realm Of Darkness Lacking Time inherently, and having people move in it anyways), that was extrapolated, or if you wish a different term, concluded, to be simply Time Stop Resistance. To quote the Speed page,

"Immeasurable (Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see the "Further Explanations"-section below.)"

If you need more information, I would recommend checking the page's Further Explanation Section, and the various FAQ's and other resources linked. In essence, one must move beyond Time in a Linear Fashion, as in, move in a manner unhinged by time, weather it be moving side by side through time or some other Non-Linear movement, from what I can understand. I will admit I am not a expert on Immeasurable speed, but from what I can see, we don't necessarily fulfill the conditions laid out here with the given feats at hand. Ignoring my gripes with the implication that the Realm of Darkness isn't valid for application for this speed, I have nothing pointing me towards the conclusion that immeasurable is valid if I look at this with as much objectivity as possible.

So, I would like to change my perspective to Neutral on Immeasurable, agree with Infinite until further evidence may be brought forward for Immeasurable. My stand on Low 1-C, of course, won't change for obvious reasons.

Once again, if I hold any fallacies or faults in my logic, I would appreciate it if they were pointed out so that I can adjust accordingly.

 

[Bobsican]

Oh, if the argument for infinite speed is based on there being a infinite space around all the "Worlds", I'd have to disagree, an High 3-A structure has infinite space within it, but stuff inside it doesn't necessarily has infinite distance between each point, this is further emphatized by how traveling around the "Worlds" is a common gameplay detail and clearly no infinities are involved to go from one to another.

Note that I'm not disagreeing with the Low 1-C stuff, but rather just pointing out that there being a infinite space doesn't mean that any travel in it for any of its contents inherently involve a infinite distance to begin with.