Kingdom Hearts: Re:Vising the Cosmology

[Abu2411]

Oh, if the argument for infinite speed is based on there being a infinite space around all the "Worlds", I'd have to disagree, an High 3-A structure has infinite space within it, but stuff inside it doesn't necessarily has infinite distance between each point, this is further emphatized by how traveling around the "Worlds" is a common gameplay detail and clearly no infinities are involved to go from one to another.

Note that I'm not disagreeing with the Low 1-C stuff, but rather just pointing out that there being a infinite space doesn't mean that any travel in it for any of its contents inherently involve a infinite distance to begin with.

Milly brought more evidence in regards to Infinite speed. I'll let him explain it when he comes back.

 

[Tarang123]

I don’t know if I said this before, but I’m not so knowledgeable on this subject. However, from what I’m seeing, I’m okay with infinite speed, and you already have my prior agreement to Low 1C

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

If I'm understanding this..

It's infinite universes with infinite distance in between each universe?

If so I can agree with Low 1-C.

The immeasurable speed feat looks like infinite speed to me, or dimensional travel. I disagree with immeasurable speed.

I will say I haven't read the whole thread so it's possible I missed anything new presented.

 

[Bobsican]

Okay, it seems the Low 1-C stuff is basically accepted now, we have about 5 mods in agreement with that, with only one staff member against it (and they haven't updated their opinion on the matter). Ultima is also known as being very reliable when it comes to this kind of stuff.

Anyways, all that'd be left here is to probably discuss the speed proposals from this further, including waiting for Milly to post more arguments for it.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Oh, if the argument for infinite speed is based on there being a infinite space around all the "Worlds", I'd have to disagree, an High 3-A structure has infinite space within it, but stuff inside it doesn't necessarily has infinite distance between each point, this is further emphatized by how traveling around the "Worlds" is a common gameplay detail and clearly no infinities are involved to go from one to another.

Note that I'm not disagreeing with the Low 1-C stuff, but rather just pointing out that there being a infinite space doesn't mean that any travel in it for any of its contents inherently involve a infinite distance to begin with.

Your point about infinite speed makes sense for me.

 

[ThanatosX]

So, the Low 1-C part has been accepted, while the speed part seems to be a bit more complicate since only one staff member agreed with Infinite and the rest are neutral, so I will give my opinion on the matter.
For me, Infinite speed is fine. The Kingdom Hearts erasing everything has been potrayed, if I remember correctly, as a light that start from him and expands onwards towards everything else, meaning that it's light would be able to reach everything in the Ocean Between. The Kingdom Hearts is also in general able to affect the entirety of the cosmology, and can reach any point in it at the very least with it's powers and attacks. During the fight between Sora and Xehanort, the latter used the Kingdom Hearts to shot attacks against Sora, and he seemed to be able to react and dodge them. So by logic, their speed should scale to the Kingdom Hearts' attack speed, which is infinite because of being able to reach any point in the Ocean Between.
Another point is that the Gummiship mini-games and in general the traveling in the Ocean Between part of the game in my opinion should be considered as game mechanic, at least in some game considering that in Birth by Sleep we see in many cutscenes that Ventus, Terra and Aqua travel to other worlds throught the Lanes Between, interdimensional pathways that are able to reach any world in the Ocean Between, and as such should be Infinite in speed. And all three of them are able to fight inside this pathways, so their speed should scale to those.
And, as a last point, I want to add that technically we give Infinite speed to characters able to travel in a infinite space, like Blazblue or Doom characters. But that's just a thing that I wanted to note and nothing more.
Overall, I personally agree with Infinite Speed, while I am neutral for Immeasurable since I still struggle to understand how that works.

 

[Bobsican]

We don't rate characters as having infinite speed even if the AoE for AP feats that'd be High 3-A or above would inherently require that speed, it's just left implied in the AP section, as far this thread concluded anyways, as infinite speed just has very high standards, merely having a feat on that level for attack speed just isn't sufficient as contradictions very often arise when it comes to characters being that fast in general, and I think it'd be assumptive to claim that any attack whatsoever from true KH has infinite speed, as the thread explains, an infinite speed feat at minimal is required by definition for any High 3-A or above feat, yet we don't rate most characters in such tiers at that speed.

See this change in the Speed page for more information on what was concluded.

 

[ThanatosX]

We don't rate characters as having infinite speed even if the AoE for AP feats that'd be High 3-A or above would inherently require that speed, it's just left implied in the AP section, as far this thread concluded anyways, as infinite speed just has very high standards, merely having a feat on that level for attack speed just isn't sufficient as contradictions very often arise when it comes to characters being that fast in general, and I think it'd be assumptive to claim that any attack whatsoever from true KH has infinite speed, as the thread explains, an infinite speed feat at minimal is required by definition for any High 3-A or above feat.

See this change in the Speed page for more information on what was concluded.

Well, I took that point taking as an example Pokemon, which according to this thread have Infinite speed for similiar reasons, but I guess that the value is outdated or the actual reasons where others.
Than that point can be discarded, I guess.

 

[Bobsican]

It seems all that'd be left before applying this CRT would be to see what Milly has to add regarding the speed, so far it seems Infinite/Immeasurable speed is basically declined.

 

[Tarang123]

It seems all that'd be left before applying this CRT would be to see what Milly has to add regarding the speed, so far it seems Infinite/Immeasurable speed is basically declined.

Most people have agreed with Infinite speed from what I've seen, and Milly has already changed his/her argument away from Immeasurable speed anyway.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Currently arguing infinite speed with Ultima off-site right now.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

If (I'm unsure but it seems we have plenty of both supporter and moderator support) we have enough support to approve Low 1-C, shouldn't that be applied and then we deal with Infinite / Immeasurable Speed before closing this thread ? Because it seems like relatively a unanimous agree.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

As mentioned, I’ve given up on quantifying speed feats from the Ocean Between, instead, I opt to use this feat from KH 0.2.

To start off, Nomura cites the Realm of Darkness to contain Cinderella’s Castle (as we already elaborated, worlds are space-times), and yet, still considers being in there “endlessly in darkness”. This is further substantiated by the passage that states the Realm of Darkness is a parallel to the Realm of Light, which includes the Ocean Between.

Aqua, after being trapped in the Realm of Darkness, reaches the furthest shore on foot. Ultima is neutral on the feat, so, I’ll leave it to you all to discuss.

 

[Delta333]

As mentioned, I’ve given up on quantifying speed feats from the Ocean Between, instead, I opt to use this feat from KH 0.2.

To start off, Nomura cites the Realm of Darkness to contain Cinderella’s Castle (as we already elaborated, worlds are space-times), and yet, still considers being in there “endlessly in darkness”. This is further substantiated by the passage that states the Realm of Darkness is a parallel to the Realm of Light, which includes the Ocean Between.

Aqua, after being trapped in the Realm of Darkness, reaches the furthest shore on foot. Ultima is neutral on the feat, so, I’ll leave it to you all to discuss.

Reaching the end of infinite space should be infinite speed.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Great. I’m going to assume this can be accepted now, with a total of 2 people on opposition, and we’re approaching 30 agreements.

 

[Bobsican]

Only a single staff member (DDM) was fine with infinite speed, and the reasoning for that agreement is now outdated, I'd rather wait for some staff agreement on such a big change.

Also, I'm still not a fan of infinite speed, it seems a bit outlierish, as unlike other speed tiers, cinematic timing for the sake of the audience can't really save infinite speed or above, as it has inherent implications that are constantly contradicted here, IMO.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That still sounds like Infinite speed to me.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

That still sounds like Infinite speed to me.

That’s fine, that’s what I was going for.

 

[GrathOfLux]

As mentioned, I’ve given up on quantifying speed feats from the Ocean Between, instead, I opt to use this feat from KH 0.2.

To start off, Nomura cites the Realm of Darkness to contain Cinderella’s Castle (as we already elaborated, worlds are space-times), and yet, still considers being in there “endlessly in darkness”. This is further substantiated by the passage that states the Realm of Darkness is a parallel to the Realm of Light, which includes the Ocean Between.

Aqua, after being trapped in the Realm of Darkness, reaches the furthest shore on foot. Ultima is neutral on the feat, so, I’ll leave it to you all to discuss.

There's a few issues I see here that need to be rectified. I'm not solidly against this conclusion, but it needs a lot more backing than it has in its current state.

Nomura cites the Realm of Darkness to contain Cinderella’s Castle (as we already elaborated, worlds are space-times), and yet, still considers being in there “endlessly in darkness”.: What you've linked seems to actually directly contradict this; Nomura states "you won't wander endlessly in darkness" in reference to the Realm of Darkness. The source is stating the exact opposite of what your premise is based on. Furthermore, even if this wasn't the case, "wandering endlessly" and variants of it are common phrases - people say that about exploring decidedly non-infinite areas rather often. If this transcript was translated from another language, it's possible these artefacts are a result of translation issues, but in such a case I'd need verification on the validity of the translation and the usage of the terms used. This isn't enough.

This is further substantiated by the passage that states the Realm of Darkness is a parallel to the Realm of Light, which includes the Ocean Between.: This point is a bit better, but still warrants more context. The Realm of Darkness is a parallel to the Realm of Light, and the Ocean Between is in the Realm of Light. I'm largely okay with the implied conclusion made here (i.e.: the Realm of Darkness has an equivalent to the Ocean Between), but it's not deducible from this alone. Depending on how the word "parallel" is used, it is possible for the Realm of Darkness to be a parallel of the Realm of Light without being the same size or having an equivalent to the Ocean Between; is there more evidence to suggest either of these are the case?

Aqua, after being trapped in the Realm of Darkness, reaches the furthest shore on foot.: Again, this runs into issues with literalness and translation. How can you reach the "furthest end" of an infinite space? Does "furthest end" here mean actually being at the edge of the Realm of Darkness, or simply being at the point where there is nothing of note left? What context is given about their journey there other than the fact they arrived on foot? Is the "sea of darkness" mentioned just another name for the Realm of Darkness, or is the sea of darkness just a part of it? Is this an accurate translation, and how do we know? I know that these questions may come off as nitpicky, and I don't like coming off as someone who "always finds something wrong", but there's too much to scrutinise here to ignore - a halfway sceptical approach doesn't lead to thinking this tells me anything by itself.

From what's given, there's too big of a hole in each of the premises established for me to pass this argument in its current state.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Responding tomorrow.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, DarkGrath.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Aachintya31]

Being infinitely bigger than Low 2-C structures is at best 2-A, not Low 1-C.

Tier Low 1-C (Low Complex Multiverse level):
Characters who can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.)

 

[Everything12]

Higher levels of infinity refers to uncountable infinity. Their still exists countable infinity between that and Low 2-C.

 

[Aachintya31]

Higher levels of infinity refers to uncountable infinity. Their still exists countable infinity between that and Low 2-C.

I see.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There is a difference between countable infinity and uncountable infinity yes, and each upper dimensional hierarchy requires being uncountable infinity in degree of power to reach the next tier.

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here exactly?

 

[Bobsican]

We're still waiting for @Milly_Rocking_Bandit to reply regarding the speed.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Scottycj256]

I'm guessing as soon as Milly gives final thoughts on infinite/immeasurable we can apply the CRT.

 

[Bobsican]

That happening and we get some staff agreement/disagreement on Milly's comment, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

We're still waiting for @Milly_Rocking_Bandit to reply regarding the speed.

@Milly_Rocking_Bandit

 

[Bobsican]

I may as well bring up a potential feat I found over infinite speed in the meantime at this point.

Data-Sora has an ability that allows him to do physical blows on a target regardless of distance
https://www.khwiki.com/Targeting_Scope

And there's an enemy that can block these attacks with a non-omnidirectional shield

https://www.khwiki.com/Defender

Thoughts on it?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Will be responding later today, but I’m having trouble seeing where you got that interpretation.

 

[Bobsican]

Honestly I'm iffy with it myself as it's a bit vague the more I think about it, so don't worry about if if you can formulate a infinite speed argument that addresses the points mentioned in the thread against it.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I'm still genuinely unsure why we can't just apply the tier changes, then keep the profiles unlocked until the Speed gets finalized. I understand the speed, and I apologize for how impatient I seem, but we have conclusively concluded that the tiering has more than enough approval to be applied so it doesn't really make too much sense to wait for the speed to apply the statistics.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

What you've linked seems to actually directly contradict this; Nomura states "you won't wander endlessly in darkness" in reference to the Realm of Darkness. The source is stating the exact opposite of what your premise is based on.

This isn’t exactly the case. The point of him saying this is because you start at Cinderella’s area. When you simply enter the Realm of Darkness, at some random part, you end up like Riku, walking through this endless black.

Furthermore, even if this wasn't the case, "wandering endlessly" and variants of it are common phrases - people say that about exploring decidedly non-infinite areas rather often. If this transcript was translated from another language, it's possible these artefacts are a result of translation issues, but in such a case I'd need verification on the validity of the translation and the usage of the terms used. This isn't enough.

Considering the fact that, again, in the same quote, it states that it houses Cinderella’s Castle (again, an entire space-time with independent timeflows), infinite has to be the case here.

Depending on how the word "parallel" is used, it is possible for the Realm of Darkness to be a parallel of the Realm of Light without being the same size or having an equivalent to the Ocean Between; is there more evidence to suggest either of these are the case?

Improbable, really. I don’t see how you could feasibly justify “parallel” not being equal in response to a 5-D space. That would have to make the RoD infinitely smaller, which isn’t ever substantiated. It’s actually the opposite, since, again, Xehanort describes each world as small in response to the infinite Ocean, and how Nomura says how you don’t have to wander in endless darkness because you’re starting in Cinderella’s area.

There’s also this statement, from Nomura:

As for the structure of the worlds, first, the so-to-speak normal worlds—the ones that Sora, the Disney characters and we live on—are situated in the Realm of Light. If you picture those worlds as existing on the same level on top of a giant plane, then on a separate level, in other words on the reverse side, exists the Realm of Darkness.

Again, this runs into issues with literalness and translation. How can you reach the "furthest end" of an infinite space?

Not to pull a whataboutism, but this is common in fiction. Take BlazBlue characters reaching the center of the Boundary, despite it being infinite in size. Or D, from Vampire Hunter D, crossing an infinite space. Or Helios, from God of War, in which his light reached an infinite sized Underworld. Or, even more so, Persona & SMT, where Seth/Kuzuryu and many more threaten to below up the infinite space. By this logic, their attacks shouldn’t have worked, because there would always be more space.

Does "furthest end" here mean actually being at the edge of the Realm of Darkness, or simply being at the point where there is nothing of note left? What context is given about their journey there other than the fact they arrived on foot? Is the "sea of darkness" mentioned just another name for the Realm of Darkness, or is the sea of darkness just a part of it?

It’s called The Dark Margin, the place where the World of Darkness “ends” and links with the Realm Between (that being Light & Dark realms respectively).

Is this an accurate translation, and how do we know? I know that these questions may come off as nitpicky, and I don't like coming off as someone who "always finds something wrong", but there's too much to scrutinise here to ignore - a halfway sceptical approach doesn't lead to thinking this tells me anything by itself.

No issue. It was translated by Gale, in our server. You can ask him if you want.

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here currently?

 

[Bobsican]

Probably wait for staff input to see if they agree or disagree with infinite speed.

On that note, I also have something of note to drop directly related to this CRT, but that'll take a few more days from the look of things.