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Kingdom Hearts: Re:Vising the Cosmology

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Can somebody remind me of the evidence and arguments for infinite speed please? Also, which staff members agree or disagree with, or are neutral regarding it?
 
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Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
This isn’t exactly the case. The point of him saying this is because you start at Cinderella’s area. When you simply enter the Realm of Darkness, at some random part, you end up like Riku, walking through this endless black.



Considering the fact that, again, in the same quote, it states that it houses Cinderella’s Castle (again, an entire space-time with independent timeflows), infinite has to be the case here.


Improbable, really. I don’t see how you could feasibly justify “parallel” not being equal in response to a 5-D space. That would have to make the RoD infinitely smaller, which isn’t ever substantiated. It’s actually the opposite, since, again, Xehanort describes each world as small in response to the infinite Ocean, and how Nomura says how you don’t have to wander in endless darkness because you’re starting in Cinderella’s area.

There’s also this statement, from Nomura:




Not to pull a whataboutism, but this is common in fiction. Take BlazBlue characters reaching the center of the Boundary, despite it being infinite in size. Or D, from Vampire Hunter D, crossing an infinite space. Or Helios, from God of War, in which his light reached an infinite sized Underworld. Or, even more so, Persona & SMT, where Seth/Kuzuryu and many more threaten to below up the infinite space. By this logic, their attacks shouldn’t have worked, because there would always be more space.


It’s called The Dark Margin, the place where the World of Darkness “ends” and links with the Realm Between (that being Light & Dark realms respectively).


No issue. It was translated by Gale, in our server. You can ask him if you want.
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This is the argument. For now, Maverick agrees, and DDM agrees.
 
It is a bit confusing to read fragmented responses. Can somebody write a more coherent explanation text please?
 
Antvasima said:
It is a bit confusing to read fragmented responses. Can somebody write a more coherent explanation text please?
Click to expand...
Tl;dr, the Realm of Light is infinite. The Realm of Darkness is parallel. It contains Cinderella’s Castle, an entire space-time, in and of itself. Nomura says being in there would be wandering endlessly in darkness. Aqua reached the furthest end of it, on foot.
 
But wandering endlessly in darkness could more likely just mean being lost due to not finding one's way since it is completely dark. What other evidence for being able to travel infinite distances is there?
 
Antvasima said:
But wandering endlessly in darkness could more likely just mean being lost due to not finding one's way since it is completely dark.
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Not possible, it’s directly cited as a parallel to the Realm of Light. You can’t parallel to a higher-dimensional structure. It’s also called the reverse side.
 
Okay, but I still don't see how that most people there end up being endlessly lost translates to reliable evidence for infinite speed taken entirely on its own. That is a common concept in fiction about realities with strange geometry, unusual physics, and complete darkness, that makes it near impossible to find one's way. We require much better evidence than that.

@Bobsican

Are you willing to try to explain this in a better way please?

Also, can you list all of the staff members who have responded here please?
 
Antvasima said:
Okay, but I still don't see how that most people there end up being endlessly lost translates to reliable evidence for infinite speed taken entirely on its own. That is a common concept in fiction about realities with strange geometry, unusual physics, and complete darkness, that makes it near impossible to find one's way. We require much better evidence than that.
Click to expand...
I already elaborated that the Realm of Darkness encompasses Cinderella’s Castle, which is a Spacetime, which is defaulted as infinite here.
 
That is not a sufficiently good explanation. My apologies.
 
I have tried to explain that our standard conventions require very explicit and self-evident evidence for such extreme statistics, not simply a statement that can be interpreted as being eternally lost in darkness and nothing else, but if I have misunderstood, Bobsican should feel free to try to explain the full context in a better manner.
 
Antvasima said:
I have tried to explain that our standard conventions require very explicit and self-evident evidence for such extreme statistics, not simply a statement that can be interpreted as being eternally lost in darkness and nothing else
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You refused to read the in-depth I gave to Grath, asked for a concise tl;dr which requires me to slice the context, and are confused why you’re misunderstanding. I don’t understand what you want me to do. I didn’t explain it wrongly, you just don’t feel like reading what I said.
 
All that I saw was a fragmented response, and I have very limited time available.

The standard practice in this community is to write easy to understand coherent explanation posts for our staff members to evaluate when asked for it, as we cknstantly have many many tasks to do, and cannot be forced thoroughly read through the entireties of every thread in order to understand.

Are you or Bobsican willing to collaborate, or are you going to continue to waste time and energy being obstinate and uncollaborative?
 
Antvasima said:
All that I saw was a fragmented response, and I have very limited time available.

The standard practice in this community is to write easy to understand coherent explanation posts for our staff members to evaluate when asked for it, as we cknstantly have many many tasks to do, and cannot be forced thoroughly read through the entireties of every thread in order to understand.
Click to expand...
I did. You chose not to read it. I quoted it, it doesn’t take much time to click the quote. It was made on the same page.


Antvasima said:
Are you or Bobsican willing to collaborate, or are you going to continue to waste time and energy being obstinate and uncollaborative?
Click to expand...
I could ask the same thing of you. Are you going to ban me off the thread like last time under the guise I’m attacking you, or just ban me outright? Because where I’m standing, DDM & Maverick already agree. The issue is you.
 
This is far from the only time that you turn unreasonably aggressive and self-righteous over trivial issues.

Anyway:

@DarkDragonMedeus @Maverick_Zero_X

Are you willing to help explain here, since Milly is being an unreasonable problem once again.
 
That would require research time that I do not have available, and it is much better if you just make an ongoing effort to stop being toxic and aggressive in general after some self-critical observation.

Persecution complexes are usually unwarranted and lead to that whoever is exhibiting them ends up being continuously problematic to other people. Nurturing personal hurt and grudges is not a badge of virtue and does not make somebody automatically right.
 
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I’m not arguing with you anymore. I do not like you, and I do not like what you stand for. I’ll take the others evaluations and trust them to explain, and if that doesn’t convince you, it is what it is. I want this thread done with, nothing more.
 
Well, I have been very clear with exactly what I currently stand for, as I have written it quite extensively on my wiki user page, but if those values make you consider me disagreeable, that is your democratic right. Just do not play straw man shadow boxing with imaginary severe distortions or misconceptions of me.
 
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I can summarize to the best of my ability, for what it's worth, though you may gleam more from Bobscian, if he decides to make a response.

- The Realm of Darkness is confirmed to exist in equal Parallel to the Realm of Light, a 5-D space.

- To further elaborate, much like the Realm of Light, The Realm of Dark is shown as holding entire Timespaces at times- Such as Cinderella's Castle and Destiny Islands, for examples.

- Unless you start off in one of these specific timespaces, you end up wandering endlessly in Darkness. This could thus be considered how the "space" between these Timespaces and anything else linking them may be perceived (Though that's simply what I think is trying to be implied here).

- There's this statement from Nomura that supports the idea of it being parallel:

"As for the structure of the worlds, first, the so-to-speak normal worlds—the ones that Sora, the Disney characters and we live on—are situated in the Realm of Light. If you picture those worlds as existing on the same level on top of a giant plane, then on a separate level, in other words on the reverse side, exists the Realm of Darkness."

Aka, The Realm of Darkness would be like a Plane below the RoL which serves as a reverse and parallel to the RoL.

- Aqua is shown, on foot, reaching The Dark Margin, which is explicitly the place where the RoD ends, and that which links to the Realm Between.

- Counterpoint:

'Again, this runs into issues with literalness and translation. How can you reach the "furthest end" of an infinite space?'

Other verses have already gotten Passed as Infinite using this same sort of Logic. By denying the verse in question here, this would implicate numerous different Verses as being subject to close revision in regards to speed.

This is, of course, unfortunately leaving out a few smaller details that, personally at least, made the argument more compelling, but for the sake of being concise I trimmed it down as much as possible.

If there's anything I left out, I sincerely apologize, and (not to put pressure on him or anything) I'm sure Bob would be more than willing to help.
 
Antvasima said:
Okay, but I still don't see how that most people there end up being endlessly lost translates to reliable evidence for infinite speed taken entirely on its own. That is a common concept in fiction about realities with strange geometry, unusual physics, and complete darkness, that makes it near impossible to find one's way. We require much better evidence than that.

@Bobsican

Are you willing to try to explain this in a better way please?

Also, can you list all of the staff members who have responded here please?
Click to expand...

Oh sorry for not coming earlier, I got busy, but anyways...

Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
As mentioned, I’ve given up on quantifying speed feats from the Ocean Between, instead, I opt to use this feat from KH 0.2.

To start off, Nomura cites the Realm of Darkness to contain Cinderella’s Castle (as we already elaborated, worlds are space-times), and yet, still considers being in there “endlessly in darkness”. This is further substantiated by the passage that states the Realm of Darkness is a parallel to the Realm of Light, which includes the Ocean Between.

Aqua, after being trapped in the Realm of Darkness, reaches the furthest shore on foot. Ultima is neutral on the feat, so, I’ll leave it to you all to discuss.
Click to expand...

Just quoting this does the job better on summarizing the argument, it isn't too long anyways, so this may be fine as is for the purposes of asking other staff to evaluate it.

Antvasima said:
I have tried to explain that our standard conventions require very explicit and self-evident evidence for such extreme statistics, not simply a statement that can be interpreted as being eternally lost in darkness and nothing else, but if I have misunderstood, Bobsican should feel free to try to explain the full context in a better manner.
Click to expand...

As for this, as said before, the Realm of Darkness is stated to parallel the Realm of Light (with the Realm of Light being the main portion of the Ocean Between given the same overall definition), and so it'd be a infinite 5-D structure like it by definition.

That said, IDK what are our exact standards on infinite speed by reaching the "border" of an infinite structure.

As for the staff that have commented on this thread and would be willing to comment (thus notably excluding @Mr._Bambu)...

@Executor_N0 , @DarkDragonMedeus , @DarkGrath , @Everything12 , @Ultima_Reality , @Nehz_XZX , and @Maverick_Zero_X (agrees with infinite)
 
Thank you for the detailed response, Milly. My apologies for my late response on this thread; the past few days have been incredibly busy.

Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
This isn’t exactly the case. The point of him saying this is because you start at Cinderella’s area. When you simply enter the Realm of Darkness, at some random part, you end up like Riku, walking through this endless black.

Considering the fact that, again, in the same quote, it states that it houses Cinderella’s Castle (again, an entire space-time with independent timeflows), infinite has to be the case here.
Click to expand...
So, I still think "wandering endlessly" is a bit too vague by itself to give such a definitive interpretation of; there is nothing I see wrong with interpreting that statement as a figure of speech, not a reference to the size of the Realm of Darkness. However, you are correct on the point about Cinderella's Castle (to my knowledge) - if Cinderella's Castle is indeed a space-time in itself, and it is only a section of the total Realm of Darkness, that is a good reason to say the Realm of Darkness is infinite in size. At least, I believe that would meet the site standards to be considered as such. So the statement of "wandering endlessly" isn't too important one way or the other; this should be fine.
Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
Improbable, really. I don’t see how you could feasibly justify “parallel” not being equal in response to a 5-D space. That would have to make the RoD infinitely smaller, which isn’t ever substantiated. It’s actually the opposite, since, again, Xehanort describes each world as small in response to the infinite Ocean, and how Nomura says how you don’t have to wander in endless darkness because you’re starting in Cinderella’s area.

There’s also this statement, from Nomura:

"As for the structure of the worlds, first, the so-to-speak normal worlds—the ones that Sora, the Disney characters and we live on—are situated in the Realm of Light. If you picture those worlds as existing on the same level on top of a giant plane, then on a separate level, in other words on the reverse side, exists the Realm of Darkness."
Click to expand...
I still have the aforementioned issue with taking "wandering endlessly" literally, but that statement attached there does give a lot of important context. I don't think this conclusion is outright deducible from the statement alone, but it seems like more than enough of a reasonable induction - I'm alright with saying the Realm of Light and Realm of Darkness are the same size with this addition.
Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
Not to pull a whataboutism, but this is common in fiction. Take BlazBlue characters reaching the center of the Boundary, despite it being infinite in size. Or D, from Vampire Hunter D, crossing an infinite space. Or Helios, from God of War, in which his light reached an infinite sized Underworld. Or, even more so, Persona & SMT, where Seth/Kuzuryu and many more threaten to below up the infinite space. By this logic, their attacks shouldn’t have worked, because there would always be more space.
Click to expand...
Ehh, alright. It is true that fiction does tend to treat "infinity" in ways that seem weird when scrutinised, especially to this extent. It doesn't change how odd it is, but you are correct that Kingdom Hearts isn't the only verse to do this. For the sake of consistency in how verses are treated, this can probably slide.
Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
It’s called The Dark Margin, the place where the World of Darkness “ends” and links with the Realm Between (that being Light & Dark realms respectively).
Click to expand...
Gotcha. This harkens back to the aforementioned issue about infinity (i.e.: "How does an infinite space have a border?"). The same reasoning that you've already given applies, of course - fiction does tend to treat infinity in odd ways, and we're typically okay with indexing those feats. If The Dark Margin is indeed the "furthest shore" of the World of Darkness, I'm okay with taking this literally despite the oddity of it.
Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
No issue. It was translated by Gale, in our server. You can ask him if you want.
Click to expand...
No worries, then. I'll trust his translation.

I appreciate the elaboration you've given, and I believe the case for this change is much stronger as a result. As mentioned, even if I don't consider every premise outright proven or deductive, I think this is reasonable enough to pass our standards for Infinite Speed.
 
Bobsican said:
Oh sorry for not coming earlier, I got busy, but anyways...

Just quoting this does the job better on summarizing the argument, it isn't too long anyways, so this may be fine as is for the purposes of asking other staff to evaluate it.

As for this, as said before, the Realm of Darkness is stated to parallel the Realm of Light (with the Realm of Light being the main portion of the Ocean Between given the same overall definition), and so it'd be a infinite 5-D structure like it by definition.

That said, IDK what are our exact standards on infinite speed by reaching the "border" of an infinite structure.

As for the staff that have commented on this thread and would be willing to comment (thus notably excluding @Mr._Bambu)...

@Executor_N0 , @DarkDragonMedeus , @DarkGrath , @Everything12 , @Ultima_Reality , @Nehz_XZX , and @Maverick_Zero_X (agrees with infinite)
Click to expand...
Okay. I think that if the Realm of Darkness is explicitly infinite in size, and Aqua also explicitly travelled through an infinitely long part of it, that is probably fine to use.
 
DarkGrath said:
Thank you for the detailed response, Milly. My apologies for my late response on this thread; the past few days have been incredibly busy.


So, I still think "wandering endlessly" is a bit too vague by itself to give such a definitive interpretation of; there is nothing I see wrong with interpreting that statement as a figure of speech, not a reference to the size of the Realm of Darkness. However, you are correct on the point about Cinderella's Castle (to my knowledge) - if Cinderella's Castle is indeed a space-time in itself, and it is only a section of the total Realm of Darkness, that is a good reason to say the Realm of Darkness is infinite in size. At least, I believe that would meet the site standards to be considered as such. So the statement of "wandering endlessly" isn't too important one way or the other; this should be fine.

I still have the aforementioned issue with taking "wandering endlessly" literally, but that statement attached there does give a lot of important context. I don't think this conclusion is outright deducible from the statement alone, but it seems like more than enough of a reasonable induction - I'm alright with saying the Realm of Light and Realm of Darkness are the same size with this addition.

Ehh, alright. It is true that fiction does tend to treat "infinity" in ways that seem weird when scrutinised, especially to this extent. It doesn't change how odd it is, but you are correct that Kingdom Hearts isn't the only verse to do this. For the sake of consistency in how verses are treated, this can probably slide.

Gotcha. This harkens back to the aforementioned issue about infinity (i.e.: "How does an infinite space have a border?"). The same reasoning that you've already given applies, of course - fiction does tend to treat infinity in odd ways, and we're typically okay with indexing those feats. If The Dark Margin is indeed the "furthest shore" of the World of Darkness, I'm okay with taking this literally despite the oddity of it.

No worries, then. I'll trust his translation.

I appreciate the elaboration you've given, and I believe the case for this change is much stronger as a result. As mentioned, even if I don't consider every premise outright proven or deductive, I think this is reasonable enough to pass our standards for Infinite Speed.
Click to expand...
Thank you, Grath. And I appreciate your evaluation, take as long as you need.
 
The accepted revisions need to be applied first.
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. I think that if the Realm of Darkness is explicitly infinite in size, and Aqua also explicitly travelled through an infinitely long part of it, that is probably fine to use.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's more or less what I thought, and vaguely recall it being implied they at least stepped foot within an infinite number of timelines.
 
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