Bobsican
He/Him- 21,177
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Okay, CRTs are allowed, so time to start the whole archived deal I had saved for this...
(Original thread for reference)
We are here because it seems the stuff that ended up here didn't get evaluated properly, while I actually thought that it was fine because no one objected it in the second thread (I'm sorry for expecting that just adding a link to continue to the next thread would inform everyone of the next thread, especially the overworked staff). With that being said, let's begin by remaking the CRT for all the subjects, but this time everything will be taken on at once in a single thread, as it seems that dividing the stuff into multiple CRTs only turned the staff more tired, which was the exact opposite of the intention, but anyways...
Please be as explicit on arguments as possible and don't just use "But this never got accepted", explain why you disagree on detail and so on, this is a CRT remake after all.
Now, we can see from the links that a "body" is just the physical thing and the soul is what the verse page calls the "Mind" (aka, simply a sort of life essense/will).
The "heart" actually is a type 2 Concept, with type 2 Abstract Existence (I know it sounds crazy, this will be elaborated with the next paragraphs)
"My brother pupil Eraqus thinks only in absolutes. He has persuaded himself that light is the only way, but forgets that light cannot exist without shadow. I believe a balance of light and darkness is what sustains our World, but too much of the darkness has been stamped out, disrupting that balance. Someone must tear down this tyranny of light and reorganize the World around the darkness which then creeps back in." -Xehanort Report 8
Xehanort states again that light and darkness need each other to exist:
"Light and darkness are two sides of the same coin; without darkness, there is no light. The Keyblade wielders' great war over Kingdom Hearts was fought by defenders of the light, servants of darkness, those who sought to reconcile the two, and those motivated by nothing more than lust for power. A whole spectrum of thought was swept into the conflict, and the worlds that did not go to war found the war brought to them. In the end, the whole World was cast into darkness." -Xehanort Report 4
There's also the fact that all hearts in existence make up KH, the literal embodiment of light, and there's also Mickey directly stating stuff supporting this.
And beings who don't have light/darkness at all are literally nonexistent as stated before multiple times.
There´s also even more regarding what @TheSpeedster96 (Thanks you) pointed out, aka, the following:
- Sora in the Final World was conceptually in pieces. During when you collect the phantoms, the heart is in the upper right screen along with a number counter, implying that Sora was collecting pieces of his heart.
- Sora literally states that hearts are all around us.
- The Kingdom Hearts Memorial Ultimania further backs this up.
- The heart is made up of light and darkness, both making up existence. https://kingdomhearts.fandom.com/wiki/Ansem's_Reports
- Nomura himself (aka, Word of God) states that everything in KH has a heart
- Xehanort calls his "heart" his essence
- Kairi's "heart" is literally referred as her essence
- Chirithy states that the hearts being destroyed makes one fade out of existence entirely
Now when we define "essence" under multiple different times, but it is most obviously not the soul. The soul and the heart are described as being two different things in their entirety, as Xemnas makes this clear yet again when he says destroying the soul would not affect Lea's heart. This is from Kingdom Hearts III base game but supports the point
If we define essence, it can have a few different interpretations between like soul and concepts.
"es·sence /ˈesəns/ the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character."
Even if you use other dictionaries, they quite closely make similar remarks on essence being an indispensable quality of something such as Oxford and Cambridge.
Given how this is, the heart's existence has already been established as being qualitatively superior to the body, the mind, and the soul.
Having heart destroyed means you, as an entirety, cease to exist as Chirithy has made clear.
This ties into the Nobodies still have Nonexistent Physiology Type 2 as well
But overall, it being called the essence of people means that it is the most important quality. Most important quality would obviously mean it's a greater value, as we had mentioned multiple times beforehand.
None of this "the heart is only 1/3 of your being" headcanons.
And given how statements of gaining hearts allow you to exist as referenced on the previous thread with Saix saying that the Organization members could become existent with them, this only conclusively shows that they are Type 2 Nonexistent Physiology beings.
This also supports the fact that the Conceptual Manipulation via strikes should stay because in that instance, the fact the heart is the essence of someone from Xehanort's own words and the game says it was essence being destroyed is enough to show it's literally the heart.
And before this gets brought up because I've seen it be asked "Why don't nobodies immediately vanish then if they have that?" We've already established why, they don't have hearts, meaning it wouldn't remotely affect them like that to begin with. Type 2 NEP details it.
As we can see, the nature of the "heart" fits nicely with such (for example, "destroying the heart (concept) of someone" and thus "destroying someone" fits for such perfectly, as it is downright from existence, as we can see with Nobodies already being agreed on to have Nonexistent Physiology, which is due to a lack of a "heart")
For the Abstract part:
"Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it."
This is consistent as we all know that when a Nobody is destroyed and its heart is free, the being will come back to a whole whenever it happens where the latter happened (not combat applicable, this is an actual mechanic in-verse) Light and darkness were accepted as being concepts as they make up all of existence by the above in Kingdom Hearts, which makes it a type 3 concept, but there is evidence that makes it a type 2 concept.
For Kingdom Hearts itself to be brought forth, it needs to be summoned by a higher dimensional clash forged from the X-Blade. Xehanort, space-time was used as a portal to push him and the X-Blade out of the world for a time due to him 'transcending space and time'. The result is Scala Ad Caelum, the place where Kingdom Hearts resides. This shows that the thing that created all light, and is the embodiment of all light, exists above and isn’t bound by the universe.
"2. False Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed above. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown."
The current definition of a False Platonic falls under what can make light and darkness type 2 concepts. Bringing up another thread, Chaos in Castlevania was accepted as being a type 2 concept for predating the universe, which Kingdom Hearts, light, and darkness were stated to have existed before.
From this, everyone that holds a "heart" holds type 2 Abstract Existence by being reliant in a type 2 concept, while Nobodies are type 2 Nonexistent Physiology beings.
Let's not discuss about potential conceptual manipulation stuff, however, first let's tackle the above before moving into potential applications and other CRT stuff that there's planned.
(Original thread for reference)
We are here because it seems the stuff that ended up here didn't get evaluated properly, while I actually thought that it was fine because no one objected it in the second thread (I'm sorry for expecting that just adding a link to continue to the next thread would inform everyone of the next thread, especially the overworked staff). With that being said, let's begin by remaking the CRT for all the subjects, but this time everything will be taken on at once in a single thread, as it seems that dividing the stuff into multiple CRTs only turned the staff more tired, which was the exact opposite of the intention, but anyways...
Please be as explicit on arguments as possible and don't just use "But this never got accepted", explain why you disagree on detail and so on, this is a CRT remake after all.
Summary of the "Normal" physiology in KH
In KH we know that a Body AND a Soul are what Nobodies are made of, while Heartless are made of a "heart" after being consumed by darkness (yes, I know the irony).Now, we can see from the links that a "body" is just the physical thing and the soul is what the verse page calls the "Mind" (aka, simply a sort of life essense/will).
What could the "heart" be?
Obviously the series isn´t talking about the organ everytime they mention "heart", anyways...The "heart" actually is a type 2 Concept, with type 2 Abstract Existence (I know it sounds crazy, this will be elaborated with the next paragraphs)
What supports this?
(Credit to TheSpeedster (Thread:3798741) and my old blog I did to explain this stuff) Well, as we can see in Ever´s blog, Heartless are tied to the "concept of darkness", which is also tied to the concept of light. And there´s the general agreement of Nobodies (which lack a heart) having already Nonexistent Physiology. I'´ll go ahead and first explain how "Light" and "Darkness" are the abstract concepts that make up existence, then how the "heart" is of abstract nature too:"My brother pupil Eraqus thinks only in absolutes. He has persuaded himself that light is the only way, but forgets that light cannot exist without shadow. I believe a balance of light and darkness is what sustains our World, but too much of the darkness has been stamped out, disrupting that balance. Someone must tear down this tyranny of light and reorganize the World around the darkness which then creeps back in." -Xehanort Report 8
Xehanort states again that light and darkness need each other to exist:
"Light and darkness are two sides of the same coin; without darkness, there is no light. The Keyblade wielders' great war over Kingdom Hearts was fought by defenders of the light, servants of darkness, those who sought to reconcile the two, and those motivated by nothing more than lust for power. A whole spectrum of thought was swept into the conflict, and the worlds that did not go to war found the war brought to them. In the end, the whole World was cast into darkness." -Xehanort Report 4
There's also the fact that all hearts in existence make up KH, the literal embodiment of light, and there's also Mickey directly stating stuff supporting this.
And beings who don't have light/darkness at all are literally nonexistent as stated before multiple times.
There´s also even more regarding what @TheSpeedster96 (Thanks you) pointed out, aka, the following:
- Sora in the Final World was conceptually in pieces. During when you collect the phantoms, the heart is in the upper right screen along with a number counter, implying that Sora was collecting pieces of his heart.
- Sora literally states that hearts are all around us.
- The Kingdom Hearts Memorial Ultimania further backs this up.
- The heart is made up of light and darkness, both making up existence. https://kingdomhearts.fandom.com/wiki/Ansem's_Reports
- Nomura himself (aka, Word of God) states that everything in KH has a heart
- Extra stuff from Re:Mind:
- Xehanort calls his "heart" his essence
- Kairi's "heart" is literally referred as her essence
- Chirithy states that the hearts being destroyed makes one fade out of existence entirely
Now when we define "essence" under multiple different times, but it is most obviously not the soul. The soul and the heart are described as being two different things in their entirety, as Xemnas makes this clear yet again when he says destroying the soul would not affect Lea's heart. This is from Kingdom Hearts III base game but supports the point
If we define essence, it can have a few different interpretations between like soul and concepts.
"es·sence /ˈesəns/ the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character."
Even if you use other dictionaries, they quite closely make similar remarks on essence being an indispensable quality of something such as Oxford and Cambridge.
Given how this is, the heart's existence has already been established as being qualitatively superior to the body, the mind, and the soul.
Having heart destroyed means you, as an entirety, cease to exist as Chirithy has made clear.
This ties into the Nobodies still have Nonexistent Physiology Type 2 as well
But overall, it being called the essence of people means that it is the most important quality. Most important quality would obviously mean it's a greater value, as we had mentioned multiple times beforehand.
None of this "the heart is only 1/3 of your being" headcanons.
And given how statements of gaining hearts allow you to exist as referenced on the previous thread with Saix saying that the Organization members could become existent with them, this only conclusively shows that they are Type 2 Nonexistent Physiology beings.
This also supports the fact that the Conceptual Manipulation via strikes should stay because in that instance, the fact the heart is the essence of someone from Xehanort's own words and the game says it was essence being destroyed is enough to show it's literally the heart.
And before this gets brought up because I've seen it be asked "Why don't nobodies immediately vanish then if they have that?" We've already established why, they don't have hearts, meaning it wouldn't remotely affect them like that to begin with. Type 2 NEP details it.
As we can see, the nature of the "heart" fits nicely with such (for example, "destroying the heart (concept) of someone" and thus "destroying someone" fits for such perfectly, as it is downright from existence, as we can see with Nobodies already being agreed on to have Nonexistent Physiology, which is due to a lack of a "heart")
For the Abstract part:
"Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it."
This is consistent as we all know that when a Nobody is destroyed and its heart is free, the being will come back to a whole whenever it happens where the latter happened (not combat applicable, this is an actual mechanic in-verse) Light and darkness were accepted as being concepts as they make up all of existence by the above in Kingdom Hearts, which makes it a type 3 concept, but there is evidence that makes it a type 2 concept.
For Kingdom Hearts itself to be brought forth, it needs to be summoned by a higher dimensional clash forged from the X-Blade. Xehanort, space-time was used as a portal to push him and the X-Blade out of the world for a time due to him 'transcending space and time'. The result is Scala Ad Caelum, the place where Kingdom Hearts resides. This shows that the thing that created all light, and is the embodiment of all light, exists above and isn’t bound by the universe.
"2. False Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed above. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown."
The current definition of a False Platonic falls under what can make light and darkness type 2 concepts. Bringing up another thread, Chaos in Castlevania was accepted as being a type 2 concept for predating the universe, which Kingdom Hearts, light, and darkness were stated to have existed before.
From this, everyone that holds a "heart" holds type 2 Abstract Existence by being reliant in a type 2 concept, while Nobodies are type 2 Nonexistent Physiology beings.
Let's not discuss about potential conceptual manipulation stuff, however, first let's tackle the above before moving into potential applications and other CRT stuff that there's planned.
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