- 3,904
- 684
I agree with it not being conceptual yeah, too much of a stretch.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Kingdom Hearts: Re:Minder of the Conceptual CRTs
- Thread starter Bobsican
- Start date
- 33,408
- 8,430
Reading this over, I trust GotP's judgment here and agree with his point on this.
- 906
- 42
Bob said that they will be 2C after revisions but it will be discussed in a different thread
- 32,359
- 20,298
That's even worse.
- 33,408
- 8,430
Pretty sure whatever AP revisions that Bob has planned will be posted like, right after this thread is finished.
- 906
- 42
bruh. You haven’t even seen the thread yet
- 32,359
- 20,298
I know why he wants 2-C he's brought it up for years. It's wrong.
- 33,408
- 8,430
Let's try and stay on topic here. Let's focus on this stuff and discuss AP when Bob makes his thread.
- 9,140
- 13,730
Hum no, the body is the vessel then. The soul is what gives life to it and the heart is what create someone's personnality and identity.It's what's identified as a vessel:
Definition of VESSEL
a container (such as a cask, bottle, kettle, cup, or bowl) for holding something; a person into whom some quality (such as grace) is infused; a watercraft bigger than a rowboat; especially : ship… See the full definitionwww.merriam-webster.com
Vessel =/= Life Force vessel is merely a container.
- 9,140
- 13,730
Just to say, I don't agree with 2-C either. Even if we go by 3-A, it's established KH will allow Xehanort to create a new universe but nothing suggessts KH was gonna affect the RoD, wich is something entirely different, or other realms than the RoL for that matter. Though I still want to see the thread Bob will probably post here anyway, just to see what he will say.
- 906
- 42
yeah I mean at least hear what he has to say
- 9,140
- 13,730
Yep.
- 3,904
- 684
I'm fine with that set up just saying that nothing in Ansem's report is saying the soul is what gives life it actually calls the soul the vessel in its case. Irregardless, this doesn't make the heart conceptual.
- 5,122
- 2,627
Read that report again. The words "its vessel" comes directly after "the body" and refers to it.
- 5,122
- 2,627
Well, if someone comes back as a Nobody, they are obviously not dead. The discovery of Nobodies coming later is kind of part of my point since his wondering about what happens when the heart leaves the body and the soul behind is a rather obvious allusion to Nobodies as a speculative possibility from his point of view. What is the soul supposedly serving as a vessel for anyway?
Last edited:
- 3,904
- 684
"Read that report again. The words "its vessel" comes directly after "the body" and refers to it."
The way it's listed says when it leaves the body and then goes into it's vessel talking about life after death, again though this entire part is irrelevant since this doesn't prove the heart is conceptual, if anything it further shows it isn't.
"Well, if someone comes back as a Nobody, they are obviously not dead."
>But in your very post you guys are trying to argue them beings that don't exist, thus they would fall under the dead category, if not then it goes back to my original point that them losing their heart doesn't erase every memory and existence of them.
"The discovery of Nobodies coming later is kind of part of my point since his wondering about what happens when the heart leaves the body and the soul behind is a rather obvious allusion to Nobodies as a speculative possibility from his point of view. For what is the soul supposedly serving as vessel for anyway?"
>I don't see how that's an obvious allusion when the discussion of nobodies is brought up later. You'd have a point if it was brought up prior to this report but it's not.
Also idk why we're using Ansem as an end all be all source for hearts when he directly says this here:
"I've spent years studying the workings of the heart. Yet it seems I still haven't learned a single thing!"
"You have surpassed nothing- only proved how little we both know. We may profess to know the heart, but its essence is beyond our reach."
He basically confirms he's learned truly nothing about the hearts. Mind you I'm not saying he can't be used as a source but he's clearly admitted his research taught him nothing about the nature of the heart.
The way it's listed says when it leaves the body and then goes into it's vessel talking about life after death, again though this entire part is irrelevant since this doesn't prove the heart is conceptual, if anything it further shows it isn't.
"Well, if someone comes back as a Nobody, they are obviously not dead."
>But in your very post you guys are trying to argue them beings that don't exist, thus they would fall under the dead category, if not then it goes back to my original point that them losing their heart doesn't erase every memory and existence of them.
"The discovery of Nobodies coming later is kind of part of my point since his wondering about what happens when the heart leaves the body and the soul behind is a rather obvious allusion to Nobodies as a speculative possibility from his point of view. For what is the soul supposedly serving as vessel for anyway?"
>I don't see how that's an obvious allusion when the discussion of nobodies is brought up later. You'd have a point if it was brought up prior to this report but it's not.
Also idk why we're using Ansem as an end all be all source for hearts when he directly says this here:
"I've spent years studying the workings of the heart. Yet it seems I still haven't learned a single thing!"
"You have surpassed nothing- only proved how little we both know. We may profess to know the heart, but its essence is beyond our reach."
He basically confirms he's learned truly nothing about the hearts. Mind you I'm not saying he can't be used as a source but he's clearly admitted his research taught him nothing about the nature of the heart.
Last edited:
- 5,122
- 2,627
The report talks about how life gives way to death. That means that the body which the soul left dies. There is absolutely no mention about life after death in that report.
Being nonexistent is not the same as being dead. At least that's my opinion. Nonexistent Physiology and having a body that is biologically alive isn't mutually exclusive as far as I'm concerned.
The allusion is supposed to be to a theoretical possibility that Ansem didn't know about yet at that point but was pretty much speculating about which I believe you would probably know if you had read my comment more carefully. It's an obvious allusion in my opinion because it talks about the possibility of a body and a soul without a heart which is basically how Nobodies were defined in KHII.
Also, it's not like as if Ansem knows absolutely nothing about the heart. What he is saying is that he hasn't truly learned anything about what he considers to be its true essence during his research but that doesn't mean that he doesn't have at least some basic understanding of what he was researching in the first place. If Ansem and his pupils truly knew absolutely nothing about the heart, they wouldn't have been able to conduct research about it and Emblem Heartless would have never come into existence.
Last edited:
- 3,904
- 684
Life after death was me wording life gives way to death so that was just moreso weird wording from me. Even then what you described isn't even the soul being life force just that one dies upon it leaving.
www.merriam-webster.com
"still in existence, force, or operation"
"knowing or realizing the existence of something"
There's also various scenes of the cast or the scene itself treating something as a death when one loses their heart:
That's not what he says or is saying at all in that context what he's saying is he's truly a fool cause he was trying to study something he can't hope to comprehend. At best he understands the 3 separate pieces but not enough about them. Your "if Ansem truly knew nothing" argument ignores the fact that you can actually very well conduct research about something you don't understand, scientist unironically do that irl a lot. Emblem Heartless was done by Ansem by use of the hearts they had in vats and it's stated in the same line of dialogue describing Emblem heartless that he cast aside his body and soul in order to become one:
"Not only did they generate "pureblood" Heartless from living hearts, but they then used those Heartless to synthesize artificial versions of the creatures as well.These synthetic Heartless bore insignias and were called "Emblems."Pureblood or Emblem, these Heartless act only to fulfill their instinctive needs. They single-mindedly detect hearts and swarm around them.A human's commands would be ineffective: the Heartless would easily steal the human's heart and use it to increase their own ranks.But what if an even stronger Heartless was giving the orders?If he cast aside his own soul and body and became a Heartless, wouldn't he be able to control the otherwise intractable Heartless?"
Again they're not an end all be all source to hearts nor should they be treated as such.
Also once again, this is irrelevant to the subject matter cause even accepting this argument as correct still does not prove hearts are conceptual.
Definition of ALIVE
having life : not dead or inanimate; still in existence, force, or operation : active; still active in competition with a chance of victory… See the full definition
www.merriam-webster.com
"knowing or realizing the existence of something"
There's also various scenes of the cast or the scene itself treating something as a death when one loses their heart:
That's not what he says or is saying at all in that context what he's saying is he's truly a fool cause he was trying to study something he can't hope to comprehend. At best he understands the 3 separate pieces but not enough about them. Your "if Ansem truly knew nothing" argument ignores the fact that you can actually very well conduct research about something you don't understand, scientist unironically do that irl a lot. Emblem Heartless was done by Ansem by use of the hearts they had in vats and it's stated in the same line of dialogue describing Emblem heartless that he cast aside his body and soul in order to become one:
"Not only did they generate "pureblood" Heartless from living hearts, but they then used those Heartless to synthesize artificial versions of the creatures as well.These synthetic Heartless bore insignias and were called "Emblems."Pureblood or Emblem, these Heartless act only to fulfill their instinctive needs. They single-mindedly detect hearts and swarm around them.A human's commands would be ineffective: the Heartless would easily steal the human's heart and use it to increase their own ranks.But what if an even stronger Heartless was giving the orders?If he cast aside his own soul and body and became a Heartless, wouldn't he be able to control the otherwise intractable Heartless?"
Again they're not an end all be all source to hearts nor should they be treated as such.
Also once again, this is irrelevant to the subject matter cause even accepting this argument as correct still does not prove hearts are conceptual.
- 3,904
- 684
"It's an obvious allusion in my opinion because it talks about the possibility of a body and a soul without a heart which is basically how Nobodies were defined in KHII."
>So the very thing that got revealed to be a lie in DDD, making the report even less trustworthy.
>So the very thing that got revealed to be a lie in DDD, making the report even less trustworthy.
- 5,122
- 2,627
Life after death was me wording life gives way to death so that was just moreso weird wording from me. Even then what you described isn't even the soul being life force just that one dies upon it leaving.
"still in existence, force, or operation"Definition of ALIVE
having life : not dead or inanimate; still in existence, force, or operation : active; still active in competition with a chance of victory… See the full definition
"knowing or realizing the existence of something"
There's also various scenes of the cast or the scene itself treating something as a death when one loses their heart:
That's not what he says or is saying at all in that context what he's saying is he's truly a fool cause he was trying to study something he can't hope to comprehend. At best he understands the 3 separate pieces but not enough about them. Your "if Ansem truly knew nothing" argument ignores the fact that you can actually very well conduct research about something you don't understand, scientist unironically do that irl a lot. Emblem Heartless was done by Ansem by use of the hearts they had in vats and it's stated in the same line of dialogue describing Emblem heartless that he cast aside his body and soul in order to become one:
"Not only did they generate "pureblood" Heartless from living hearts, but they then used those Heartless to synthesize artificial versions of the creatures as well.These synthetic Heartless bore insignias and were called "Emblems."Pureblood or Emblem, these Heartless act only to fulfill their instinctive needs. They single-mindedly detect hearts and swarm around them.A human's commands would be ineffective: the Heartless would easily steal the human's heart and use it to increase their own ranks.But what if an even stronger Heartless was giving the orders?If he cast aside his own soul and body and became a Heartless, wouldn't he be able to control the otherwise intractable Heartless?"
Again they're not an end all be all source to hearts nor should they be treated as such.
Also once again, this is irrelevant to the subject matter cause even accepting this argument as correct still does not prove hearts are conceptual.
If "life after death" was simply you having a weird wording, then you've got the order wrong. What Ansem is talking about is life giving way to death which by definition means that death comes after life in that case.
The definitions you're referring to are the second and third ones given by the dictionary with the first being very well something that can be applied to characters with Nonexistent Physiology. Take note that the synonym given for the second definition is active and the example for it is about something that isn't a biological lifeform. The synonym for the third definition is sensitive which is something that characters with Nonexistent Physiology can very well be. At the very least I can't imagine that Nonexistent Physiology means that a character can't know or realize the existence of something. The example for the third definition is also not one of a biological lifeform.
These scenes you are referring to are from KHI where nobody except Ansem, Seeker of Darkness, knew about Nobodies yet. Even then, people who don't have a strong enough heart don't turn into Nobodies and turning into a Heartless, which means turning into a mindless creature devouring hearts, is hardly anything better than dying.
A scientist wouldn't be able to research something if they didn't have at least some vague idea of what said something is in the first place. They wouldn't be able to recognize the object of their research when presented with it and Ansem is quite certainly not that level of clueless when it comes to hearts and if he was, he wouldn't have been able to get hearts in vats in the first place.
Last edited:
- 5,122
- 2,627
This is something they didn't know about yet in KHII and Nobodies are formed by someone losing their heart which in this case was strong enough for their body and soul to remain, as such the allusion still aplies since it was Ansem specifically wondering about what happens when the heart leaves.
- 3,904
- 684
I'm only going to respond to two specific parts because the rest is irrelevant as I've explained above and pointless derail.
"A scientist wouldn't be able to research something if they didn't have at least some vague idea what said something is in the first place. They wouldn't be able to recognize the object of their research when presented with it and Ansem is quite certainly not that level of clueless when it comes to hearts and if he was, he wouldn't have been able to get hearts in vats in the first place."
>Ok that's neat, quote where in my argument I said he knows absolutely nothing, I specifically fixed my comment into saying Ansem is not an end all be all source for the hearts. Also he views himself as such since he directly says he hasn't learned a single thing during his studies.
"This is something they didn't know about yet in KHII and Nobodies are formed by someone losing their heart which in this case was strong enough for their body and soul to remain, as such the allusion still aplies since it was Ansem specifically wondering about what happens when the heart leaves."
>Ok, and? Why is it relevant if they didn't know about it yet in KH 2, the fact of the matter is it's a direct lie as revealed in DDD, so again the report should not be used as an end all be all when it's very contents are revealed to be a lie in a later game, them not knowing about that yet is the same as saying we can use older scientific theories because at that specific time they didn't know about certain concepts that later theories come in and debunk, and this is something you're greatly not understanding about the reports. The reports are theories, not facts.
"A scientist wouldn't be able to research something if they didn't have at least some vague idea what said something is in the first place. They wouldn't be able to recognize the object of their research when presented with it and Ansem is quite certainly not that level of clueless when it comes to hearts and if he was, he wouldn't have been able to get hearts in vats in the first place."
>Ok that's neat, quote where in my argument I said he knows absolutely nothing, I specifically fixed my comment into saying Ansem is not an end all be all source for the hearts. Also he views himself as such since he directly says he hasn't learned a single thing during his studies.
"This is something they didn't know about yet in KHII and Nobodies are formed by someone losing their heart which in this case was strong enough for their body and soul to remain, as such the allusion still aplies since it was Ansem specifically wondering about what happens when the heart leaves."
>Ok, and? Why is it relevant if they didn't know about it yet in KH 2, the fact of the matter is it's a direct lie as revealed in DDD, so again the report should not be used as an end all be all when it's very contents are revealed to be a lie in a later game, them not knowing about that yet is the same as saying we can use older scientific theories because at that specific time they didn't know about certain concepts that later theories come in and debunk, and this is something you're greatly not understanding about the reports. The reports are theories, not facts.
- 5,122
- 2,627
I don't think that the rest that you decided not to respond to is pointless derail since I was directly responding to points you've made but it is alright to me if you don't want to respond to it.
I'm not saying that Ansem knows everything about hearts or is absolutely right whenever he is talking about them. I also wasn't of the opinion that you thought that he had no knowledge of hearts whatsoever. What I'm saying is that he isn't completely clueless and that therefore what he is saying about the topic has at least some credence regardless of however limited it might be.
Ansem alluding to Nobodies as a hypothetical possibility remains a fact as long as Nobodies are formed by hearts leaving a body and a soul behind since he was wondering what would happen in that scenario. That isn't even a theory, it's simply him wondering what would happen in a certain scenario without coming to a conclusion and Xemnas having lied to his organization doesn't change that. I do in fact understand that the reports are written from the perspective of the character writing them and that they aren't necessarily right all the time.
- 3,904
- 684
It responded to the part of my argument that loosely came into the rest of it, and even then it went into pointless derail as everyone in the thread thusfar agreed that even it correct does not prove conceptual, so no it is irrelevant and pointless derail.
If you're saying he isn't completely clueless you are thus implying I'm saying that or you're bringing up a useless point since that wasn't even what I was arguing. Sure he can have some credence, cool, I said he shouldn't be an end all be all.
A hypothetical possibility is irrelevant to the fact that it's revealed that the entire idea of nobodies in KH 2 was a lie fabricated by Xemnas. It does change that since what Xemnas said about nobodies to the organization is the theories Ansem and others followed.
If you're saying he isn't completely clueless you are thus implying I'm saying that or you're bringing up a useless point since that wasn't even what I was arguing. Sure he can have some credence, cool, I said he shouldn't be an end all be all.
A hypothetical possibility is irrelevant to the fact that it's revealed that the entire idea of nobodies in KH 2 was a lie fabricated by Xemnas. It does change that since what Xemnas said about nobodies to the organization is the theories Ansem and others followed.
- 3,904
- 684
It'd be better for you right now to comment on the main point of this thread which is hearts being conceptual or not then one of the few side arguments that already got confirmed it doesn't help support conceptual hearts.
- 5,122
- 2,627
I was simply responding to points that you've made. For now I'm preferring to leave the debating about hearts being conceptual or not to others. If someone writes something about the topic that piques my interest, I'll respond to that.
- 5,122
- 2,627
There weren't exactly many people that explicitly agreed and I'm pretty sure that Bobsican isn't agreeing so saying that everyone agrees is an incorrect generalisation.
Me saying that Ansem has at least some credence isn't pointless since I was the one who linked his reports. At least that's how I'm seeing it.
Ansem having alluded to the idea of a body and soul left behind by a heart which is how Nobodies are formed isn't changed by Xemnas' lie. Xemnas' lie also doesn't change the way Nobodies are created which is at least part of the idea of Nobodies in KHII which means that not the entirety of it was a lie.
- 15,920
- 2,693
Yeah, Matthew and GiverOfThePeace seem to be making the most sense, so I agree with them.
- 3,904
- 684
I'm talking about people that fall under knowledgeable members of KH agreeing with the core point and your refutes didn't really show any backing into going against their statement.
I legit don't see how just because you linked a source makes it so it's relevant.
Yes it is since Xemnas literally lied and said that's how it is they lack a heart, and it's revealed that they have a heart.
- 5,122
- 2,627
Okay, if that's how it is, then it's alright for you to say that. That being said whether other people agreed with you or not was never a relevant part of what I was telling you.
Well, me having linked a source means that its credence is relevant to me which is independent from whether or not it is relevant to you. It was important to me to highlight that you cannot completely dismiss what Ansem is saying unless he was proven wrong. I'm not claiming that me linking a source makes it automatically relevant for everyone.
It isn't relevant to Ansem's allusion because he was wondering about the scenario of a heart leaving a soul and a body behind, a scenario which applies to the Nobodies because that is how they are created. He didn't claim that in such a case they are now forever without hearts. I do admit that he would have thought that after he found out about Nobodies but such thoughts didn't cross his mind before that as far as we know.
Last edited:
- 3,904
- 684
It not being a relevant part of what you're telling me is exactly why it's derailing.
Idk why something being relevant to you matters frankly, it's legitimately irrelevant to the discussion matter of the thread. I never said either you can completely dismiss but Ansem's saying and even then I can alternatively say you can't completely agree with what Ansem is saying either. Also if you're admitting it's not relevant for everyone then that's irrelevant to the thread in question.
He was wondering about the scenario from false information he and the rest have been under the impression of from Xemnas. Which got confirmed to all be a lie. Idk why we're grasping at straws and trying to find to say he didn't claim an absolute when I can again, say the alternative that he didn't claim it wasn't that case either.
Idk why something being relevant to you matters frankly, it's legitimately irrelevant to the discussion matter of the thread. I never said either you can completely dismiss but Ansem's saying and even then I can alternatively say you can't completely agree with what Ansem is saying either. Also if you're admitting it's not relevant for everyone then that's irrelevant to the thread in question.
He was wondering about the scenario from false information he and the rest have been under the impression of from Xemnas. Which got confirmed to all be a lie. Idk why we're grasping at straws and trying to find to say he didn't claim an absolute when I can again, say the alternative that he didn't claim it wasn't that case either.
- 5,122
- 2,627
I simply responded to points you've made. It's not like as if I've brought up random topics from out of nowhere.
Well, obviously something being relevant to me matters to me. Ansem's fourth secret report shows that he believes that the soul leaving the body will result in death whereas he believes that the heart leaving the body and the soul could result into something else that he doesn't know of yet. If we were to consider this line of thought to have any credence, then this would be relevant as evidence against your idea of the heart being the same as lifeforce since Ansem quite clearly doesn't equate the lack of a heart with a lack of lifeforce in this report. I don't need to explain that a lack of lifeforce would be the same as death by definition now, do I? Also, me saying that me linking something doesn't make it relevant for everyone doesn't mean that it has no relevance for anyone besides myself. Whether it matters to other people doesn't depend on the person linking it or whether or not it got linked by someone, it depends on the credibility of the source and the arguments accompanying it.
It seems as if you've got the chronology wrong. Ansem's wondering about what happens when the heart leaves the soul and the body happens before he found out about Nobodies, and therefore long before he heard of Xemnas and his lie which means that he didn't get any false information from Xemnas at that point yet. The scenario of someone losing their heart while their soul and body is left behind is not a part of the lie Xemnas fabricated. He lied to the organization member about whether or not they have hearts. He didn't lie about how Nobodies are created which would be hard to do to someone who experienced and remembers said creation process without any degree of Memory Manipulation.
- 3,904
- 684
The point you responded to was one of the supporting points of what the heart is described as that doesn't prove conceptual which again, got accepted on this thread as not being enough evidence. Thus this is derail.
It mattering to you does not matter to the discussion at hand, so again, I don't see why you viewing it as relevant matters. Which as shown by how they treat the heart leaving your body in KH is wrong and again it's coming from a man that admits he truly doesn't know much about the heart. I don't know why we'd consider this line to have credence when nothing backs it up since it's a belief followed by someone who only supported something revealed to be a lie and a lack of lifeforce by definition would be the lack of a soul. Even then there's no reason to even argue this roundabout since Xehanort confirms the heart is his essence which is attributed to such things. What? Yes it does depend on the person linking it if you're going into a thread debating on a topic required to be relevant to the thread. This topic is not relevant to the thread.
Ok let me remove the Xemnas' lie part, this still doesn't support your point since his theory was only supported by something that got revealed to be a lie. And yes that is a part Xemnas fabricated since he directly said that it was all a reason to see if they were willing to be Xehanort copies. Him lying to them about them having hearts is a direct contributor to him lying to them about how nobodies are made since the entire explanation of how they're made is due to the removal of the heart and one with a strong will.
It mattering to you does not matter to the discussion at hand, so again, I don't see why you viewing it as relevant matters. Which as shown by how they treat the heart leaving your body in KH is wrong and again it's coming from a man that admits he truly doesn't know much about the heart. I don't know why we'd consider this line to have credence when nothing backs it up since it's a belief followed by someone who only supported something revealed to be a lie and a lack of lifeforce by definition would be the lack of a soul. Even then there's no reason to even argue this roundabout since Xehanort confirms the heart is his essence which is attributed to such things. What? Yes it does depend on the person linking it if you're going into a thread debating on a topic required to be relevant to the thread. This topic is not relevant to the thread.
Ok let me remove the Xemnas' lie part, this still doesn't support your point since his theory was only supported by something that got revealed to be a lie. And yes that is a part Xemnas fabricated since he directly said that it was all a reason to see if they were willing to be Xehanort copies. Him lying to them about them having hearts is a direct contributor to him lying to them about how nobodies are made since the entire explanation of how they're made is due to the removal of the heart and one with a strong will.
- 5,122
- 2,627
The point I responded to was indeed one of the arguments you used for your position of hearts not being conceptual but If I remember right, there were people in this thread that agreed with hearts not being conceptual but not people that specifically agreed to the one point I adressed.
If what you're referring to are the scenes from KHI you've linked in one of your earlier comments, then I can only say to that what I already told you in an earlier comment of mine. They didn't know about Nobodies yet at that point and turning into a Heartless is hardly a thing someone would be nonchalant about so them being upset about it happening makes sense. We've already agreed that Ansem has an idea of what a heart is which is what enables him to research it in the first place and that he isn't clueless to the point of not being able to recognise a heart when presented with it. All of this means that he has a limited amount of credence when it comes to the topic of what a heart exactly is. He did have hearts in vats that needed to have come from somewhere and found out about the experiments his pupils conducted which produced Heartless after all. Also, if a lack of lifeforce is by definition the same as the lack of a soul, then how is a heart the same as lifeforce? The series made it multiple times clear that a heart is not the same as a soul so how can the heart be the same as lifeforce and that by definition the same as a soul? Xehanort calling his heart his essence doesn't necessarily support your point about the heart being lifeforce since there are multiple definitions for the word like on this site that you've used twice in this thread to support your arguments. Take note of the fact that none of the definitions given by that site have anything specifically to do with life. Who one is doesn't make up for a lack of credibility for a source or a lack of arguments. Since the topic is about one of the points you've used to support your stance on the matter there indeed is a certain relevance to the thread if you ask me.
My point was that Ansem alluded in his fourth secret report to Nobodies as a theoretical possibility that he didn't know of yet and this not being fueled by a lie from Xemnas because he didn't know of Nobodies or Xemnas at the time yet supports that. I've already told you in an earlier comment that him wondering about a hypothetical scenario doesn't qualify for a theory since he didn't come to any conclusions. Him simply wondering about a hypothetical scenario without coming to a conclusion doesn't rely on anything Xemnas said especially since he didn't know of Xemnas yet at the time the report was written. Xemnas didn't lie about how Nobodies are made. Fact is that the Nobodies did indeed lose their hearts but their bodies were in the process of replacing what they lost according to Xemnas. The creation of Roxas and Namine as a result of Sora turning into a Heartless is a very important part of the plot and we were even shown a glimpse of Xehanort as Ansem's apprentice turning the other pupils into Heartless.
Last edited:
- 9,140
- 13,730
Seems the abstract part is not gonna be accepted ultimately.
- 3,904
- 684
Not gonna reply to this cause this is just a blatant repetition of an argument with unnecessarily longer text.
I said replace the lie point and it changes nothing in my statement.
"It's not a theory since he didn't come to any conclusions"
www.merriam-webster.com
Theories are based on coming to a hypothetical scenario, you come to a conclusion once you test out a theory.
What in context Xemnas is saying is that the way they're formed, which is lack of hearts is incorrect because they do indeed have hearts that's what I'm talking about, yes they are formed from hearts leaving them but they are not formed from body and soul like Ansem assumed, they're formed from one's heart, look at Roxas and Namine as the core examples of that.
I said replace the lie point and it changes nothing in my statement.
"It's not a theory since he didn't come to any conclusions"
Definition of THEORY
a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena; a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action… See the full definition
www.merriam-webster.com
What in context Xemnas is saying is that the way they're formed, which is lack of hearts is incorrect because they do indeed have hearts that's what I'm talking about, yes they are formed from hearts leaving them but they are not formed from body and soul like Ansem assumed, they're formed from one's heart, look at Roxas and Namine as the core examples of that.
- 5,122
- 2,627
I'm referring to arguments that I've made earlier since you've replied with points that you've made earlier so I'm not the only one who is repeating himself.Not gonna reply to this cause this is just a blatant repetition of an argument with unnecessarily longer text.
I said replace the lie point and it changes nothing in my statement.
"It's not a theory since he didn't come to any conclusions"
Theories are based on coming to a hypothetical scenario, you come to a conclusion once you test out a theory.Definition of THEORY
a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena; a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action… See the full definition
What in context Xemnas is saying is that the way they're formed, which is lack of hearts is incorrect because they do indeed have hearts that's what I'm talking about, yes they are formed from hearts leaving them but they are not formed from body and soul like Ansem assumed, they're formed from one's heart, look at Roxas and Namine as the core examples of that.
Theories come with suppositions of which Ansem didn't make any. He simply wondered over a hypothetical scenario that he knew could happen and didn't do anything more with it. Therefore, there is no theory to test since Ansem didn't come up with a possible result of the scenario he was writing about that he could falsify with a test.
What I was talking about was that Xemnas didn't lie about how Nobodies are made and with that I mean the heart leaving a body and soul. I didn't say that they didn't have hearts which I should have already made clear in my earlier comments if I'm not wrong. What suggests that Nobodies are formed from hearts? The ones that are formed from hearts are the Heartless not the Nobodies. Nobodies are formed from body and soul, otherwise their bodies wouldn't have made replacements for the hearts they've lost.
- 3,904
- 684
He has an uncertain belief of his thing being completely correct hence why he's theorizing how it works. If he's going over a hypothetical scenario he's forming a theory out of it or else why would he randomly just do a hypothetical scenario for no reason especially when it's related to his study of the heart if he's not trying to gain an answer from it, and thus a theory. So no, there is a theory.
The fact that Roxas takes the appearance of Ventus due to his heart within Sora and Namine being birthed from Kairi's heart within Sora. Heartless are not formed from the hearts whatsoever.
"Ansem's Report 2
It is my duty to expose what this darkness really is. I shall conduct the following experiments:
"Ansem's Report 3
The shadows that crawl beneath the castle... Are they the people who lost their hearts, or incarnations of darkness? Or something entirely beyond my imagination?
All my knowledge has provided no answer. One thing I am sure of is that they are entirely devoid of emotion. Perhaps further study will unlock the mysteries of the heart.
Fortunately, there is no shortage of test samples. They are multiplying underground even as I write this report. They still need a name. Those who lack hearts... I will call them the Heartless."
The only time this is implied is from one of Ansem SoD's reports:
"I believe the Heartless are taking hearts. They are born from those who've lost their hearts, and thrive on hearts seized from others. The hearts taken by the Heartless become Heartless themselves.Though I lack proof, I am confident in this hypothesis. I must also study their behavioral principles. Though they lack emotions, they do seem to have some intelligence. How to communicate with them?It's just occurred to me: Could they be the darkness in people's hearts?"
But it's given more context on what he means when he further's his hypothesis here:
"A massive core of energy lay beyond the door sought by the Heartless. It may be the ultimate goal of the Heartless. But what is that energy? I have devised a hypothesis, based upon my observations of the Heartless.The Heartless feed on other's hearts, and they yearn for that energy core. That thing beyond the door must be a heart, too--the heart of this world. There is no proof, but, having felt that immense energy, I am certain. That was the heart of the world.The Heartless are trying to take hearts not only from all living creatures, but from the planet itself. But what do they mean to do with the heart of the world?"
The heart does not form the heartless, it's the darkness in them that forms them. That's the entire reason Princesses of Light cannot be turned into heartless. Because they have no inch of darkness on them.
Further backed up by Yen Sid here:
Nobodies formed from the body and soul is incorrect also since what's directly explained in their creation is that they're formed from someone with a strong heart allowing their empty shell to have a "will of it's own" which is further elaborated on by Xemnas' reveal that it's them re-creating their own heart allowing them to act, feel, have emotions, etc.
The "replacements" in context are also their own hearts, the only true exemptions are Roxas, Xion, and Namine since they're under a special group.
The fact that Roxas takes the appearance of Ventus due to his heart within Sora and Namine being birthed from Kairi's heart within Sora. Heartless are not formed from the hearts whatsoever.
"Ansem's Report 2
It is my duty to expose what this darkness really is. I shall conduct the following experiments:
- Extract the darkness from a person's heart.
- Cultivate darkness in a pure heart.
- Both suppress and amplify the darkness within.
"Ansem's Report 3
The shadows that crawl beneath the castle... Are they the people who lost their hearts, or incarnations of darkness? Or something entirely beyond my imagination?
All my knowledge has provided no answer. One thing I am sure of is that they are entirely devoid of emotion. Perhaps further study will unlock the mysteries of the heart.
Fortunately, there is no shortage of test samples. They are multiplying underground even as I write this report. They still need a name. Those who lack hearts... I will call them the Heartless."
The only time this is implied is from one of Ansem SoD's reports:
"I believe the Heartless are taking hearts. They are born from those who've lost their hearts, and thrive on hearts seized from others. The hearts taken by the Heartless become Heartless themselves.Though I lack proof, I am confident in this hypothesis. I must also study their behavioral principles. Though they lack emotions, they do seem to have some intelligence. How to communicate with them?It's just occurred to me: Could they be the darkness in people's hearts?"
But it's given more context on what he means when he further's his hypothesis here:
"A massive core of energy lay beyond the door sought by the Heartless. It may be the ultimate goal of the Heartless. But what is that energy? I have devised a hypothesis, based upon my observations of the Heartless.The Heartless feed on other's hearts, and they yearn for that energy core. That thing beyond the door must be a heart, too--the heart of this world. There is no proof, but, having felt that immense energy, I am certain. That was the heart of the world.The Heartless are trying to take hearts not only from all living creatures, but from the planet itself. But what do they mean to do with the heart of the world?"
The heart does not form the heartless, it's the darkness in them that forms them. That's the entire reason Princesses of Light cannot be turned into heartless. Because they have no inch of darkness on them.
Further backed up by Yen Sid here:
Nobodies formed from the body and soul is incorrect also since what's directly explained in their creation is that they're formed from someone with a strong heart allowing their empty shell to have a "will of it's own" which is further elaborated on by Xemnas' reveal that it's them re-creating their own heart allowing them to act, feel, have emotions, etc.
The "replacements" in context are also their own hearts, the only true exemptions are Roxas, Xion, and Namine since they're under a special group.
- 5,122
- 2,627
"I believe the Heartless are taking hearts. They are born from those who've lost their hearts, and thrive on hearts seized from others. The hearts taken by the Heartless become Heartless themselves. Though I lack proof, I am confident in this hypothesis. I must also study their behavioral principles. Though they lack emotions, they do seem to have some intelligence. How to communicate with them? It's just occurred to me: Could they be the darkness in people's hearts?"
Isn't Ansem SoD outright saying that he believes that Heartless are formed from hearts instead of just implying it?
Isn't Ansem SoD outright saying that he believes that Heartless are formed from hearts instead of just implying it?
- 3,904
- 684
I literally just explained later down my comment what he meant. What he meant was the darkness from the hearts forms them. He even starts by saying it's a hypothesis and later on starts seeing they go based off darkness, which is even backed up by what Yen Sid said.
Similar threads
