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Kingdom Hearts Low 2-C Upgrade

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Bobsican

Bobsican

He/Him
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The multiplier thread started to die and wasn't that much of a priority anyways, so we may as well proceed on this in the meantime.

Okay, multiple feats were found that make Low 2-C a surprisingly consistent tier for the main cast, the arguments are here, now please go explicit in terms of thoughts and so on for the changes, and make sure to keep an open mind.

However, please note that the Sora's Heartless Ultimania statements is still pending a proper translation (Edit: Nevermind) and if this gets accepted, the blog may also be linked in the verse page for posterity purposes.
 
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Very interesting, ofc (hypothetically speaking) I agree any and all major upgrades should only apply to the main cast/god tiers. That said I'll remain neutral (Abelit leaning on agree) for the time being since I can already see some folks having issues with the tier 2 feats scaling to physicals (substating realms, creating dimensions and all that jazz) plus tier Low 2-C standards/arguments are just one big headache after another these days, I can barely keep up with it tbh.

I will say that the blog was well put together tho, good job @Bobsican.
 
The_Axiom_of_Virgo said:
Very interesting, ofc (hypothetically speaking) I agree any and all major upgrades should only apply to the main cast/god tiers. That said I'll remain neutral (Abelit leaning on agree) for the time being since I can already see some folks having issues with the tier 2 feats scaling to physicals (substating realms, creating dimensions and all that jazz) plus tier Low 2-C standards/arguments are just one big headache after another these days, I can barely keep up with it tbh.

I will say that the blog was well put together tho, good job @Bobsican.
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TBH I shouldn't be the only one taking credit, the KH group really helped get this together, namely @Nehz_XZX , @The_2nd_Existential_Seed , @KingPin0422 , @Cyberblader90, @Xehanort1307, @ThatBoiRick, @Neon2hu and @Milly_Rocking_Bandit
 
The blog is really well made and there are a lot of evidences that makes the Low 2-C Tier consistent. I agree with the upgrade.
 
I'm kind of annoyed that there is another thread when this one still needs to be concluded and Bobsican still has to do his share of the editing for this thread but I do agree with the upgrade. I just don't like the timing.
 
Bump.
Perhaps more staff should be contacted? IIRC Dragon and Bambu aren't particularly interested in this series.
@The_real_cal_howard may be someone to consider too, even if he hasn't been into the series too much from what I'm aware.
 
Are there any other staff members that you would recommend? Cal is not interested in staff duties anymore as far as I am aware.
 
Well, perhaps @ElixirBlue given that he did appear aware over the Toy Story stuff last time, and while not staff, @ProfessorKukui4Life is also considerable given that he's the one that did the sustenance standards (for which several feats in here are based on).

By the way, some more changes were done on the blog to make it clearer in terms of evidence, namely over Pete being sent indeed to the Ocean Between, and the Datascape being a universe, also thanks to Le Onion in Discord while on that.
I could also quote something for the canonicity of the novels if required.
 
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another dreadful thread

I'm just going to list off any statements I disagree with. It may not be structured well.

I agree each world has its own time. That much makes sense. I disagree, however, that each world is operating on their own spatial axis. You pass through a physical barrier and reach another physical barrier. The other mitigating factors you try to argue against are excessively relevant in this regard- you explain the fact that said worlds are visible as "the light of their heart"- I find this flimsy. So I reject this particular bit of info. Given they share spatial axes, I think it may also be relevant to say that time being different on different worlds is like... standard. In real space.

Not disagreeing with this, since I think this is all ultimately pointless and the worlds share spatial dimensions anyways- but I would like to know what the English version says, since you keep referring exclusively to the Japanese version where the English one is absolutely relevant.

Again, reiterating, I don't feel this is a valid Low 2-C feat. The universes seem to share 3/4 similar axes, along with other questionable bits.

I can try to look into this more later. The second part of the blog seems to be an attempt to undo an old CRT, which is... iffy, to me.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
another dreadful thread

I'm just going to list off any statements I disagree with. It may not be structured well.

I agree each world has its own time. That much makes sense. I disagree, however, that each world is operating on their own spatial axis. You pass through a physical barrier and reach another physical barrier. The other mitigating factors you try to argue against are excessively relevant in this regard- you explain the fact that said worlds are visible as "the light of their heart"- I find this flimsy. So I reject this particular bit of info. Given they share spatial axes, I think it may also be relevant to say that time being different on different worlds is like... standard. In real space.

Not disagreeing with this, since I think this is all ultimately pointless and the worlds share spatial dimensions anyways- but I would like to know what the English version says, since you keep referring exclusively to the Japanese version where the English one is absolutely relevant.

Again, reiterating, I don't feel this is a valid Low 2-C feat. The universes seem to share 3/4 similar axes, along with other questionable bits.

I can try to look into this more later. The second part of the blog seems to be an attempt to undo an old CRT, which is... iffy, to me.
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The KH3D novel is even more explicit on the time axis stuff...

“So time flows differently here and there? So what? That’s true of any two worlds. Their home world would be running on a different time axis, too,” Riku replied.

Narrator: "Each world had its own unique passage of time. For instance, it was possible that when Shiki and the other girl went back to their home worlds, no time at all had passed there, meaning they had returned right after the moment they were erased. That was simply how it worked"

Judging by the wording of the narrator, it's clear the time axis portrayed for each world is indeed meant to be one innate to the "world" and not the one any planet normally would, this is consistent with Young Xehanort's statement over this.

Actually, the Japanese version appears to say "different space", which is even more explicit in terms of this space between worlds being spatially separate from the one a world has, and the BbS novel does reinforce that the "light of their hearts" is what's seen, even if that may sound a bit flowery at first.

Terra: “Yep, hard to believe there are so many worlds out there besides our own. The light is their hearts, and it’s shining down on us like a million lanterns.”
Narrator: "Aqua, too, gazed up at the sky as she listened to Terra’s words.
Yes, the light was the radiance of the world’s heart. The hope of the people living within that world."

"So we made a copy of the world, and then pulled those hearts apart"
Please also note that the plot recap in Jiminy's Journal instead says that "he" did it, and KH is written first in Japanese anyways, so I'd consider giving more priority to the contextuality of the JP version instead.

And no, the second part tries to use the KH of Worlds differently in terms of scaling, if anything it should be evaluated as a brand new argument given how it's based on new details that weren't brought up before, and it really wouldn't undo the CRT that downgraded them as they still wouldn't scale to true KH or Zeus.
 
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Thank you for helping out Mr. Bambu. It is appreciated.
 
Oh, the Sora's Heartless statements in the Re:coded Ultimania finally got a translation, thanks @Milly_Rocking_Bandit and @Qliphoth_Bacikal
2021-09-12_5.png


-Sora's Heartless
The source of the bug that was preventing Jiminy's diary from returning to its original form.
Initially, the data of Sora's Heartless was born in "KH1", but it grew with the "Heartless Will" that Data Sora unleashed during his adventure, and the Heartless's instinct to return everything to darkness led it to erase all of the data in Jiminy's diary.

(Second section)

First one: Riku, who fought Sora, was knocked unconscious after being affected by the bug. Sora enters the data in order to save Riku, neutralizes the bug, and defeats Maleficent, he regains the path to the real world. But just as everything seems to have settled, a powerful bug hiding in the roots of the data sets out to erase the data world.

Arrow (Left side page): When the debugging is completed and the diary is fixed, memories of the trip are erased from the data, Sora, and Riku.

Arrows (Right side page): "The mighty bug--Sora's Heartless data--it seeks to devour/swallow not only the Data World but also the Real World into Darkness."

Overall it does back up the Datascape (And the Real World) being threatened, which fits for Low 2-C out of the reasons outlined in the blog.
 
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Neutral atm

When it comes to "Stars equalling universes'world'", how would that translate to Zeus' feat?
 
ElixirBlue said:
Neutral atm

When it comes to "Stars equalling universes'world'", how would that translate to Zeus' feat?
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Based on what I know and what others tell me we are assuming in that particular case that the stars are the stars of that particular world on the basis of not all instances of stars necessarily being worlds like in the Pride Lands or with Yen Sid in The Mysterious Tower and how there were apparently no problems with the world order.
 
I'm just going to notify that all the contents (new evidence) that has been brought up in here have been added to the blog post, to ease reading of what is being used to support Low 2-C and all.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
Bob's points only really address a single issue I had with Low 2-C (e.g., the time axis thing).
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I'm sure I also sent the English version of YX's statement over the Toy Story timeline being copied, but just in case, here's also the Jiminy's Journal plot recap where it's stated that he did it. As said before, I'd rather stick to the Japanese version here given the contextuality, in face of this inconsistency.

There's also the 5th Xehanort's Report stating that normally only those with a Keyblade or that have given themselves to darkness may travel between worlds.
This is most notable with "worlds" with explicit intergalactic travel (And in the same game where the above is stated) such as Deep Space[8], after all, the Grand Councilwoman, who "oversees the universe" (See Journal entry), isn't even aware of what Aqua, Terra and Ventus are doing in terms of erradicating Unversed beyond her own spaceship and the planet Turo, nor is concerned about them beyond their invasion to the spaceship and so on.

It would also normally go without saying, but just in case, the light of the world's hearts being visible on the sky of each world doesn't mean that the worlds themselves are within the space of the respective world, this would be an unfounded claim given that for all we know from the details in the cosmology as the blog has explained, and so it would require more assumptions than such light simply being visible and not extending to about anything whatsoever.

Everything else does appear to clarify your issues, and if anything I'd like if you were more specific on what of what I've brought up doesn't satisfy your point of view on the matter.
 
Bobsican said:
I'm sure I also sent the English version of YX's statement over the Toy Story timeline being copied, but just in case, here's also the Jiminy's Journal plot recap where it's stated that he did it. As said before, I'd rather stick to the Japanese version here given the contextuality, in face of this inconsistency.

There's also the 5th Xehanort's Report stating that normally only those with a Keyblade or that have given themselves to darkness may travel between worlds.
This is most notable with "worlds" with explicit intergalactic travel (And in the same game where the above is stated) such as Deep Space[8], after all, the Grand Councilwoman, who "oversees the universe" (See Journal entry), isn't even aware of what Aqua, Terra and Ventus are doing in terms of erradicating Unversed beyond her own spaceship and the planet Turo, nor is concerned about them beyond their invasion to the spaceship and so on.

It would also normally go without saying, but just in case, the light of the world's hearts being visible on the sky of each world doesn't mean that the worlds themselves are within the space of the respective world, this would be an unfounded claim given that for all we know from the details in the cosmology as the blog has explained, and so it would require more assumptions than such light simply being visible and not extending to about anything whatsoever.

Everything else does appear to clarify your issues, and if anything I'd like if you were more specific on what of what I've brought up doesn't satisfy your point of view on the matter.
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That doesn't really mean anything when I'm not convinced these worlds aren't just... planets. The logistics of traveling between worlds means little to me.

Your Grand Councilwoman is the character from Lilo and Stitch. She was never portrayed as omniscient there, Bob. This isn't evidence.

I'm against each world being considered a universe. They're represented as planets, and the evidence in favor of universal size is lacking.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
That doesn't really mean anything when I'm not convinced these worlds aren't just... planets. The logistics of traveling between worlds means little to me.

Your Grand Councilwoman is the character from Lilo and Stitch. She was never portrayed as omniscient there, Bob. This isn't evidence.

I'm against each world being considered a universe. They're represented as planets, and the evidence in favor of universal size is lacking.
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While each "world" may have a planet within itself and all (or even larger contents), the argument is that they're pocket realities, for which they fit the criteria for, and so I'll remind the definition just in case:

"Pocket realities, in this case, refers to realms that are spatially separate from other realms (including universes) and either are of less than universal size on the inside or appear as less than universe sized objects when observed from the outside."

Goofy's statement covers the former combined with the lore over Pete's whereabouts being the Ocean Between, which is the space between all the "worlds" as stated before, and we do know their contents aren't limited to a planet for the latter, as seen with some examples the blog post brings.

Logistics over traveling from a world to another not being as simple as just having a way to reach "space" is more than clear, dimensional travel is stated to be involved:

"Right before Ven’s eyes, Terra’s Keyblade glider soared into a rift in space—the entrance to the dimensional corridor." BbS novel, page 45

"Also, sometimes spatial instability causes Corridors of Darkness to form spontaneously" Memorial Ultimania, Page 6

Notice something? Those are also the same ways stated to travel between worlds normally, not only in-universe, but also in the Memorial Ultimania:

"The Lanes Between are roads used to travel between worlds, and a Keyblade wielder can open them with the power of a Keyblade. Also, those from the Realm of Darkness can use the power of darkness to open the way, but the resulting paths are classified as "Corridors of Darkness" (Page 6)

The Director's Secret Report XIII also backs this up:

"There are two ways to travel, one of which is to use a Gummi Ship like Sora and his friends do to move through the "Ocean Between", the space studded with all the worlds. Worlds are encased in an invisible shell which keeps the individual world from being breached by other worlds, but when the door to the heart that exists in each world is opened, the shell covering that world is broken, and it rains down as a meteor shower. The meteors, fragments of that shell, result in Gummi Blocks for Gummi Ships. Gummi Blocks have the ability to breach any world as they were originally part of the world-covering shells.

The other way is to use a "corridor of darkness". These routes are like a loophole of sorts and not pathways that should rightfully be used."

As it's confirmed from the Memorial Ultimania, the Lanes Between are no different from the Corridors of Darkness, therefore, it's more than clear that spatial tricks are a must for one to travel from a world to another normally.

Also, please explain how Deep Space is just a "planet" when the setting isn't even bound to the planet Turo, but rather on a spaceship, in fact, the BbS novel even explains that Stitch did intergalactic travel in it as said before, and from the before-mentioned lore in the same game, we do know that an assumption is required to claim that having an spaceship is enought to leave a world when this is clearly shown to not work like that with this.

And the argument isn't over all "worlds" being a universe, but rather them being pocket realities.

If you simply think there's something odd, please just ask instead of jumping to conclusions, that's all.
 
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I still don't think they're pocket realities, though. There's space between them covered by the ship used by Chip and Dale. Even if they're locked off from one another somehow (the Crystal Spheres of D&D come to mind), this doesn't mean they are entirely different realities or what have you.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
I still don't think they're pocket realities, though. There's space between them covered by the ship used by Chip and Dale. Even if they're locked off from one another somehow (the Crystal Spheres of D&D come to mind), this doesn't mean they are entirely different realities or what have you.
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You mean the Gummi ship? That's because the Gummi ship is able to bypass the dimensional barriers that separate the worlds, or in this case, the pocket realities. This is because the Gummi Ship is made out of the same material the barriers are made of. The space they enter isn't "space" in the way we understand it, which is why its called the Lanes Between and has a bunch of strange beings within it. "Space" is seen in the Lilo & Stitch reality/world, and is demonstrably not the same as the Lanes Between.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
You mean the Gummi ship? That's because the Gummi ship is able to bypass the dimensional barriers that separate the worlds, or in this case, the pocket realities. This is because the Gummi Ship is made out of the same material the barriers are made of. The space they enter isn't "space" in the way we understand it, which is why its called the Lanes Between and has a bunch of strange beings within it. "Space" is seen in the Lilo & Stitch reality/world, and is demonstrably not the same as the Lanes Between.
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I hate to continue harkening back to another verse, I dislike "what about"-isms, but I really must show a case I feel is comparable. So, again, the Crystal Spheres from D&D.

Entire solar systems are contained within spheres (sometimes larger spaces). This is called Wildspace and works fundamentally like our own. Outside of these spheres, as in physically outside, is a different sort of space known as The Flow or Phlogiston or a number of other names, that functions entirely differently. The barrier between these isn't any sort of "oh god we're entering an alt universe because its different outside!". It's just two areas separated by a boundary. Here, there is no evidence of it being any different, outside of perfectly explainable things.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
I hate to continue harkening back to another verse, I dislike "what about"-isms, but I really must show a case I feel is comparable. So, again, the Crystal Spheres from D&D.

Entire solar systems are contained within spheres (sometimes larger spaces). This is called Wildspace and works fundamentally like our own. Outside of these spheres, as in physically outside, is a different sort of space known as The Flow or Phlogiston or a number of other names, that functions entirely differently. The barrier between these isn't any sort of "oh god we're entering an alt universe because its different outside!". It's just two areas separated by a boundary. Here, there is no evidence of it being any different, outside of perfectly explainable things.
Click to expand...
Oh, now I understand, let's see...

The KH3D novel consistently calls the worlds Sora and Riku travel "realms" and the like:

"Just then, the Keyhole leading to the next world rose up before Riku. He held up his Keyblade, opened the door, and proceeded to the realm that lay beyond."
(Page 47, and right after this, the chapter for the next "world" (The Grid) was introduced)

"With a nod at each other across the divide between their realms, the two friends held up their Keyblades to the Keyhole. Light shot from their weapons into the opening, and the Keyhole of the second world yawned wide.
Sora took one more look at Riku beside him, and Riku did the same. With another nod, Riku vanished.
“All right, let’s keep at it!”
With that, Sora departed for the third world."

(Page 14)

And so does the Birth by Sleep novel:

"Something had been wrong with Terra during the exam, no question, but when she ran into him in Cinderella’s realm he was the Terra she knew so well. She had the feeling a day would soon come when she could report to Master Eraqus that his misgivings were baseless. So why was she still anxious?"

(Page 52, in context it's talking about Aqua)

My previous reply also points out that Atlantica is also called a realm too in the KHI official strategy guide.

Anything else that may be required to qualify them as pocket realities?
 
Mr._Bambu said:
I hate to continue harkening back to another verse, I dislike "what about"-isms, but I really must show a case I feel is comparable. So, again, the Crystal Spheres from D&D.

Entire solar systems are contained within spheres (sometimes larger spaces). This is called Wildspace and works fundamentally like our own. Outside of these spheres, as in physically outside, is a different sort of space known as The Flow or Phlogiston or a number of other names, that functions entirely differently. The barrier between these isn't any sort of "oh god we're entering an alt universe because its different outside!". It's just two areas separated by a boundary. Here, there is no evidence of it being any different, outside of perfectly explainable things.
Click to expand...
I mean, the case there seems to be that they are "Physically" separate. Like, there's a physical barrier between those solar systems and the outside.

In KH, there is no "physical" barrier. Or at least, the existence of one is never implied or shown or even hinted towards. Any mention of the barriers that separate worlds is always in reference to the dimensional ones; the ones that keep them disconnected from the Lanes Between and provide Gummi ship parts.

Also, the fact that space travel that allows governance of the entire universe, ergo the Councilwoman from Lilo & Stitch, does exist and is used, yet the knowledge of other worlds is still not known to the people that practice space travel, leans that there is more to the Lanes Between than simply "there's a physical bubble around a large area." Heck, Stitch performed intergalactic travel on screen and didn't leave his world. So bare minimum, the worlds would all have to be at least as large as a galaxy. If regular space travel allowed the reaching of the physical "bubble" around a world, it would have been mentioned long ago.

And what about the worlds different time axis? As in, the method of time they keep itself is different, not just a time zone? Does that not warrant a deeper look into the potential of a non physical barrier?
 
Show me where they are called "dimensional" barriers, then. I feel much of your point hinges on this word being used.

As I said, what the Councilwoman does or does not know is not indicative of anything. She's not some mighty cosmically aware intelligence. In addition, I am not trying to say Kingdom Hearts is exactly like D&D (such a fact would be a nightmare of mine, were it true). Instead, I merely provided an example in which space is not simply "space" but is still spatial in nature, rather than "dimensional".

Is this not already a deeper look? How deep do you need?
 
Sora Smash reveal confirmed
KH verse 2-C upgrade on the cards
Click to expand...

kronk-oh-yeah-its-all-coming-together.gif


Regardless of what may be said, I've always found it sus how characters only peaked at Multi-continental.

Following, at the very least.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
Show me where they are called "dimensional" barriers, then. I feel much of your point hinges on this word being used.

As I said, what the Councilwoman does or does not know is not indicative of anything. She's not some mighty cosmically aware intelligence. In addition, I am not trying to say Kingdom Hearts is exactly like D&D (such a fact would be a nightmare of mine, were it true). Instead, I merely provided an example in which space is not simply "space" but is still spatial in nature, rather than "dimensional".

Is this not already a deeper look? How deep do you need?
Click to expand...
Thank you for the reply.

I will have to apologize however, as the “dimensional wall” statement isn’t right. I appear to have misspoke and gotten information mixed up. The walls themselves are never actually referred to as dimensional, my apologies for the incorrect argument.

However, there is a dimensional statement that directly helps my cause regardless. So while I apologize for not being able to provide that specific statement, I do have other evidence that supports my point in its place.

To begin, when Mickey (or Minnie really) banished Pete, he was sent to the Ocean Between. This was to ensure that he could not ever interfere in their world again. The specific wording meant for the Ocean in this instance was “another dimension,” which directly implies that something more than just “far away” is at work here.

Another factor lending to the walls not being purely physical is what the World began as. Initially, the World was a giant, infinite, flat landmass. There was no end to it and the worlds just kinda blended into one another. After the Keyblade War, that infinite world broke, and the worlds got locked away by barriers of light to protect them from the darkness that is present in the Ocean Between.

However, as we see very clearly with the worlds, they are not just planets that seem to have been broken from a bigger piece. They are complete places with their own “space,” their own suns and rules. The worlds have hearts, and just like people, they grow, which is why a world can drastically change as time passes.

When the Worlds broke apart, the rift between them was dubbed the Ocean Between, and the connections that lingered between them became the Lanes Between. Note that Master Eraqus was capable of blocking all of these lanes by himself.

Several times, this “Ocean” has been referred to as something different, and definitely not the same as the normal “space” that exists in other worlds. We know that “space” exists in worlds beyond just the Lilo and Stitch one as well, such as the position of Neverland in reference to London and Deep Jungle showing tools of astronomy. So if we can establish that “space” exists in other worlds, that leads to the question of what makes the “Ocean” different from space.

The Ocean, by Cid, who works on Gummi Ships and has traveled worlds, is called “interspace.” It is distinctly different from normal space. It is “a space between space.” It is an alternate dimension where the rules of a world do not apply.

This also calls into question what the barriers are made of in the first place to reject this alternate dimension entirely. The barriers, as stated by Nomura, are invisible shells that surround a world and are made of light. This is to protect the world from the Darkness, and when the shell is shattered, Gummi blocks are formed from the remains of the shell. However, the Gummi blocks, despite being physical, ARE NOT immediately formed.

When a barrier breaks, the light that made it up becomes flies across the sky of the world, often being dubbed “shooting stars.” After those shooting stars “settle,” they become Gummi blocks. This means that a process has to happen before the light of a barrier becomes a physical object.

If these barriers of light were purely physical, and had no other properties that distort them to keep them separate from the Ocean, why would you not start at the edge of a world and have to find the Heart world within the contained space?

If you were to enter at the edge of the barrier, on a planet that contains the Heart of the world, then look back, you will see an entire physical universe/bare minimum Galaxy behind you. But sora never crosses these. He enters the barrier and appears at the Heart of the world. The same is possibly true for Gummi blocks.

There is no logical explanation for Sora bypassing an entire portion of space to wind up at the Heart of a world, if there wasn’t something non-physical occurring here. Even when he and Donald bumble their way onto Deep Jungle, tumbling and fighting their way past the barrier of the world, they find themselves specifically on the planet that the Heart is located. Despite becoming separated from the Gummi ship crashing long before reaching the planet itself.

When you combine that with the statements of the Ocean being a different dimension, of being “space between space,” then I feel it’s clear to see that the barriers themselves are operating on a “pocket reality” system, where their space and rules and laws of reality are very different from the Ocean or any other worlds.
 
Before I go about possibly arguing against all of this, can you provide video sources for these claims? A few of them are notable, but you provide no evidence.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Of course, it will take a while to link all of them but absolutely
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This is fine. If I don't see the thread, do feel free to send a message to my wall after you've compiled everything you need. I have been rather busy lately though so I may not respond immediately, and may forget- my apologies.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
This is fine. If I don't see the thread, do feel free to send a message to my wall after you've compiled everything you need. I have been rather busy lately though so I may not respond immediately, and may forget- my apologies.
Click to expand...
That’s completely fine. It is definitely going to take me a while, but when I have gathered and composed the evidence I will post it here and send a message to your wall.
 
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