Kid Icarus 6-C feat Downgrade

[SamanPatou]

I mean, what does make the idol more reliable than Palutena?

The idols also just talk of the pantheon in general, and if Hades is really immeasurably stronger than all the others, neither Medusa nor Pit would have been able to wound and defeat him.

From my point of view, we don't have enough to clearly scale Hades, and then everyone else, to Dyntos.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean, what does make the idol more reliable than Palutena?

The idols also just talk of the pantheon in general, and if Hades is really immeasurably stronger than all the others, neither Medusa nor Pit would have been able to wound and defeat him.

From my point of view, we don't have enough to clearly scale Hades, and then everyone else, to Dyntos.

A character speaking of someone's power, especially with a statement like "powerful beyond imagination," is more subject to hyperbole than the idol descriptions basically being direct statements since it's not a character speaking.

Also, Medusa's attack was a surprise attack, which is why it was so effective. It's well-established that she's far below Hades normally. As for Pit, he needed the Great Sacred Treasure to even fight him, and only won with the cannon after Medusa's attack (and after Hades regenerated his legs, which was stated to have made him more vulnerable due to the sheer amount of souls he had to use).

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

You would have to prove that Palutena's statement is Hyperbole. She has no reason to overplay Dyntos. Also, descriptions from an idol are just as open to Hyperbole as a person talking. In truth this likely just puts Hades above most of the other Gods, but that doesn't mean he scales to Dyntos.

 

[SamanPatou]

I agree with Dragon, I also can say that a direct statement from a character comes before the description of a collectible item, which is also unclear and does not make a direct comparison.

After Palutena's statement, Pit questions if Dyntos is even more powerful than Hades. I know it's not a real comparison, as the question isn't answered, but that statements isn't there for nothing.

And honestly, a surprise attacks means little if your enemy is immeasurably stronger than you, it doesn't suddenly becomes immeasurably weaker because he got distracted, unless it's directly stated.

Medusa and Pit are indeed weaker than Hades, but still powerful enough to hurt him, something that wouldn't be possible if he was immeasurably stronger than them.

And placing Hades even above Dyntos makes several other characters comparable to the latter.

 

[CloverDragon03]

And honestly, a surprise attacks means little if your enemy is immeasurably stronger than you, it doesn't suddenly becomes immeasurably weaker because he got distracted, unless it's directly stated.

Medusa and Pit are indeed weaker than Hades, but still powerful enough to hurt him, something that wouldn't be possible if he was immeasurably stronger than them.

And placing Hades even above Dyntos makes several other characters comparable to the latter.

Again, it was stated that Hades is no longer "invincible" after regenerating his legs, basically indicating that he's more vulnerable now. So yes, there is a reason why he could be harmed by Medusa.

In truth this likely just puts Hades above most of the other Gods, but that doesn't mean he scales to Dyntos.

Given their descriptions, it likely indicates that Hades and Dyntos are among the strongest in the pantheon.

 

[SamanPatou]

Remember that Hades kept becoming stronger throughout the game, as he absorbed thousands of souls of the people that perished during the many conflicts that happened, like the war for the Wish Seed, the battles that went on while Pit was a ring and all the rest.

We don't know if the idol refers to this "Amped Hades" or his normal state. If it was the former, which we still can't know, there might be room to possibly scale him and the Sacred Treasure to Dyntos (even though I'd still be iffy), but if the idol talks about his normal state, then it just doesn't make sense.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Remember that Hades kept becoming stronger throughout the game, as he absorbed thousands of souls of the people that perished during the many conflicts that happened, like the war for the Wish Seed, the battles that went on while Pit was a ring and all the rest.

We don't know if the idol refers to this "Amped Hades" or his normal state. If it was the former, which we still can't know, there might be room to possibly scale him and the Sacred Treasure to Dyntos (even though I'd still be iffy), but if the idol talks about his normal state, then it just doesn't make sense.

For his battle state (his "Rainbow Apocalypse" by Viridi) it's said that he's not going all-out against Pit due to his "selfish protection of the Underworld's bottom line," so a held-back Hades fought and matched the Great Sacred Treasure. Since it's his battle state, which only shows up in the final chapter, it would be reasonable to assume it's this "Amped Hades."

 

[SamanPatou]

Hades has to idols, one of which, the one you mentioned, being the "Battle state" and most likely his amped version.

This seems to hint that the "base idol" is for his normal state, and that's the one talking about him being immeasurably strong.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Hades has to idols, one of which, the one you mentioned, being the "Battle state" and most likely his amped version.

This seems to hint that the "base idol" is for his normal state, and that's the one talking about him being immeasurably strong.

No, his battle state seems to be just that: a state he enters specifically for battle. He says he uses it for "special occasions" so that implies he could use it this whole time.

 

[SamanPatou]

Then we don't know if the idol refers to "base" or "amped" Hades, and the possibly scaling would make at least a bit of sense only on his amped form, as he's specifically almost invulnerable and above all others but the Great Sacred Treasure.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm leaning more towards Amped Hades because that's when the battle form debuted despite him seemingly being able to use it for a while.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, nobody downscales from Dyntos; his ability to create anything or make improvements over all existing things makes him surpass Hades. The only reason he hasn't faced Hades himself is simply because he's not interested in making an Empire.

But yeah, Saman explained why the Hades' belly stuff is vague.

 

[CloverDragon03]

So everyone becomes High 6-B except for Dyntos who is 4-A?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Can anyone be scaled above the High 6-B calc in any way? Like the Great Sacred Treasure and Hades after absorbing an immense number of souls? Not saying 4-A, but maybe like, Large Country level+?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to everybody who are helping out here.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Can anyone be scaled above the High 6-B calc in any way? Like the Great Sacred Treasure and Hades after absorbing an immense number of souls? Not saying 4-A, but maybe like, Large Country level+?

I'm not sure, the Attack Potency page does say "The "+" symbol can also be used if there exists a calculation extremely close to the arithmetic mean, and characters scale above the calculated feat by a wide margin, for example being able to defeat enemies on such levels with a single casual attack."

And while characters like Hades and Pit with the Great Sacred Treasures meet the requirement of scaling above the calculated feat by a wide margin, I don't think the calc itself is close enough to what's needed for a + (It's 35% lower than the 430 teratons needed for Large Country level+, which is decently close but not extremely close) for us to give it to those characters. They should definitely get an "At least" added to their ratings but I don't think we can slap a + onto them.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm not sure, the Attack Potency page does say "The "+" symbol can also be used if there exists a calculation extremely close to the arithmetic mean, and characters scale above the calculated feat by a wide margin, for example being able to defeat enemies on such levels with a single casual attack."

And while characters like Hades and Pit with the Great Sacred Treasures meet the requirement of scaling above the calculated feat by a wide margin, I don't think the calc itself is close enough to what's needed for a + (It's 35% lower than the 430 teratons needed for Large Country level+, which is decently close but not extremely close) for us to give it to those characters. They should definitely get an "At least" added to their ratings but I don't think we can slap a + onto them.

Going by the upscaling guidelines, I think those characters specifically could qualify.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Maybe but I'm still not entirely certain.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I’m for upscaling those two to High 6-B+, but in the event that this doesn’t happen, I’m okay with “At least High 6-B”

 

[Antvasima]

We have kept our standards open to case by case interpretation in this area to be able to remain flexible, but I am not sure whether or not this case qualifies. Can somebody explain how close to the border the calculation is, and why other characters should scale far above it please?

 

[CloverDragon03]

It's a difference between 317.9 teratons (the calc) and 430 teratons (baseline High 6-B+). This is roughly a 1.35x difference. My reason for believing that the Great Sacred Treasure and Hades should scale far above the calc is for a few reasons.

1. The Great Sacred Treasure was stated to be made as the "ultimate weapon" to combat Hades, which is further reinforced by the fact that Pit with the Three Sacred Treasures could only slightly damage Hades while the Great Sacred Treasure fought and kept up with him. In addition, the Three Sacred Treasures were broken in one casual attack, while the Great Sacred Treasure could withstand numerous hits.
2. By the time Pit fights Hades with the Great Sacred Treasure, Hades is far stronger than before due to having consumed an immense number of souls, with consuming souls being something that makes Hades grow stronger. Thus, consuming a vast number of souls would make him far stronger than his casual self, which could destroy the Three Sacred Treasures in one hit, which are above normal Pit, who scales to the calc.

 

[CloverDragon03]

It's a difference between 317.9 teratons (the calc) and 430 teratons (baseline High 6-B+). This is roughly a 1.35x difference. My reason for believing that the Great Sacred Treasure and Hades should scale far above the calc is for a few reasons.

1. The Great Sacred Treasure was stated to be made as the "ultimate weapon" to combat Hades, which is further reinforced by the fact that Pit with the Three Sacred Treasures could only slightly damage Hades while the Great Sacred Treasure fought and kept up with him. In addition, the Three Sacred Treasures were broken in one casual attack, while the Great Sacred Treasure could withstand numerous hits.
2. By the time Pit fights Hades with the Great Sacred Treasure, Hades is far stronger than before due to having consumed an immense number of souls, with consuming souls being something that makes Hades grow stronger. Thus, consuming a vast number of souls would make him far stronger than his casual self, which could destroy the Three Sacred Treasures in one hit, which are above normal Pit, who scales to the calc.

My proposition is that Hades be split into two keys, something like this:

At least Large Country level (Casually destroyed the Three Sacred Treasures, which are above Base Pit) | Large Country level+ (Far stronger his casual self due to consuming a massive number of souls)

Key: Base | After consuming an immense number of souls

 

[Antvasima]

It's a difference between 317.9 teratons (the calc) and 430 teratons (baseline High 6-B+). This is roughly a 1.35x difference. My reason for believing that the Great Sacred Treasure and Hades should scale far above the calc is for a few reasons.

1. The Great Sacred Treasure was stated to be made as the "ultimate weapon" to combat Hades, which is further reinforced by the fact that Pit with the Three Sacred Treasures could only slightly damage Hades while the Great Sacred Treasure fought and kept up with him. In addition, the Three Sacred Treasures were broken in one casual attack, while the Great Sacred Treasure could withstand numerous hits.
2. By the time Pit fights Hades with the Great Sacred Treasure, Hades is far stronger than before due to having consumed an immense number of souls, with consuming souls being something that makes Hades grow stronger. Thus, consuming a vast number of souls would make him far stronger than his casual self, which could destroy the Three Sacred Treasures in one hit, which are above normal Pit, who scales to the calc.

@AKM sama @Damage3245 @Elizhaa

What do you think about this?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Bump

Also worth noting, in the final battle, Hades says that he's been training since last time, so that's another point toward him being much stronger than before along with the soul consumption.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @Damage3245 @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus

We basically need to know if it is acceptable to upscale to use a "+" sign in this situation.

 

[Damage3245]

I thought we avoided upscaling to the + sign and used it at most for tier boundaries themselves?

Seems a bit arbitrary to me to boost it up to the halfway point between two tiers.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we currently allow a certain amount of upscaling in both cases.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

If it's extremely close and there's a scaling chain, I do not mind Hades or GST being likely Large Country level+. Especially the GST's final attack that vaporized Hades. GST's super laser > Hades > GST physically >>>>>>>> Three Sacred Treasures => Medusa >>>>> Everyone else including base Pit.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[CloverDragon03]

If it's extremely close and there's a scaling chain, I do not mind Hades or GST being likely Large Country level+. Especially the GST's final attack that vaporized Hades. GST's super laser > Hades > GST physically >>>>>>>> Three Sacred Treasures => Medusa >>>>> Everyone else including base Pit.

I think it’s able to warrant something like “At least Large Country level, likely Large Country level+”

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Here is a summary of the changes that I believe should happen:

• Every character that is "At least 6-C, likely 4-A" will become High 6-B
• Characters that are 4-A (besides Dyntos) such as Aurum-fused Pyrrhon and Hades should be "At least High 6-B"
• Hades should get a second key called "After consuming an immense number of souls." That key and Pit's Great Sacred Treasure key should be rated as "At least High 6-B, likely higher" (I believe the higher portion should be made as Large Country level+ on the Attack Potency, Durability, Striking Strength, etc.)

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the summary.

What do the rest of you think about those suggestions?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Seems fine to me.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks solid to me.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Thanks for the input. Since there's an agreement here, is this safe to apply?

 

[SamanPatou]

Same, looks good.

I think you can apply the changes.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Thanks for the help. I'll begin applying the changes.

 

[CloverDragon03]

These changes have been applied to all profiles. This thread can be closed.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Man...I forgot that I was the one who made this thread lol