KH Low 1-C 6-D Upgrade: Mickey Mouse Clubhouse

[Bobsican]

Here's the arguments and justifications, but in summary, the argument is based on that the Ocean Between (aka, what's currently accepted as a qualitative Low 1-C 5-D structure) has its own time axis from several implications, some which the plot overall relies on to work in the first place and would be rather assumptive to extrapolate otherwise, and so by definition it'd qualify for 6-D as a whole per this part in the Tiering System FAQ:

The relationship between the spatial dimensions of a universe and the additional temporal dimension(s) may be visualized as something akin to the frames of a movie placed side-by-side. Basically, the time-like direction may be thought of as a line comprised of uncountably infinite points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the whole universe at any given moment, with the set of all such events comprising the totality of spacetime.

This structure can then be generalized to any amounts of dimensions, and is also the reason destroying a spacetime continuum is a greater feat than destroying only the contents of the physical universe (Low 2-C, rather than 3-A or High 3-A). So, for example, a spacetime continuum comprising two temporal dimensions (Instead of just one) would have an additional time direction whose "snapshots" correspond to the whole of a 4-dimensional spacetime, and so on and so forth.

And so it's reasonable to claim per the site's standards that a cosmology with a 5-D structure that's bound to an overall explicit time axis in total qualifies for 6-D within Low 1-C.

Agree: 14 (@ImmortalDread , @Zencha9 , @TheKingStrategist13 , @Rakih_Elyan , @Ikelaggan , @Eseseso , @Strife304 , @Vasco, @Lynieryz, @Nehz_XZX, @ThanatosX, @LordGriffin1000, @DarkGrath, @Lonkitt)

Neutral: 2 (@Milly_Rocking_Bandit , @DarkDragonMedeus (Leans into agreeing))

Disagree: 2 (@PrinceofPein (Yet to update their stance on the matter regarding replies on their concerns, @Ultima_Reality (Hiatus for months, check the discussion for more information)))

 

[The_Emperor4th]

Low 1-C Mickey Mouse

 

[Bobsican]

 

[ImmortalDread]

W thread.

 

[Zencha9]

makes sense i agree

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Neutral.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I have to say it is 5D in the first place cause it contains multiple 3D + 1D time structures (4D), so it in itself is simply 4D + 1D space, not the way you explained.
That said I did not read the blog, just going off what you have in the summary, and the fact that I was part of those who agreed to the low 1-C

 

[Bobsican]

TBH it's a bit difficult to talk about dimensions semantically correctly, but it's appreciated that you still get the idea on that regard.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Yeah, so it is not 5D with 1D time, but rather large 4D space that contains lots of other 4D structures and also 1D time

 

[Bobsican]

Oh no, it's accepted as a 5-D space, as it is an infinite structure that encompasses the "smaller" 4-D structures (universes) and is even considered as an hyperspace in relation to them. The premise of this thread is to claim the cosmology as a whole is 6-D out of this 5-D space also having its own time axis, and so it fits per the stuff quoted in the OP, otherwise it wouldn't be tier 1 to begin with.

Now if you disagree with that I'd suggest to go make a CRT as going against that detail would require going against stuff that was explicitly accepted by the staff and so on.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Oh no, it's accepted as a 5-D space, as it is an infinite structure that encompasses the "smaller" 4-D structures (universes) and is even considered as an hyperspace in relation to them. The premise of this thread is to claim the cosmology as a whole is 6-D out of this 5-D space also having its own time axis, and so it fits per the stuff quoted in the OP.

Otherwise it wouldn't be tier 1 to begin with.

Again accepted as a 5D space would be wrong, since it is 5D to begin with due to it being a large 4D space that contains lots of other smaller 4-D structures and its own dimension of time making it all 5D.
The argument was that the ocean was the thing that encompasses all the timelines (3D+1D), hence it cannot be just (3D+1D) also, so it is a higher dimensioned structure (4D+1D) 5D hence the low 1-C. So trying to get an upgrade again here is weird

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Again accepted as a 5D space would be wrong, since it is 5D to begin with due to it being a large 4D space that contains lots of other smaller 4-D structures and its own dimension of time making it all 5D.

This literally makes no sense. You can’t be a large 4-D space and be 5-D. The Ocean Between is explicitly bigger than every timeline, infinitely so.

 

[Bobsican]

Gotta just quote Ultima:

Low 1-C is fine by me. We already assume that the space in which spacetimes are displaced is 5-D, at present. Add that to the space in question here being explicitly described as infinite and the worlds as "small" compared to it, and you have a fairly straightforward case.

I don't think the 2-A option is terribly logical either, after mulling it over: 2-A would imply that universes in KH are displaced over 4-D space, which doesn't work when parallelism of any two objects by definition requires an extra axis: For two line segments to be parallel, you'd have to set it so they wouldn't touch regardless of how far they are extended, which wouldn't be possible if they stood side-by-side in 1-D space as in here, meaning you would need them to be displaced over a plane. Same thing happens with planes: For them to be parallel, they shouldn't ever be able to meet, so you'd need them to be displaced over 3-D space. Generalizing that to the 4-D case, spacetimes would obviously have to be displaced over a 5-D region (This works by definition, too: If they're different spacetime continuums then obviously they can't share the same space, in the way 3-D objects exist around us for instance)

 

[PrinceofPein]

This literally makes no sense.

You can be a large 4-D space and be 5-D.

I do not get this parrt

The Ocean Between is explicitly bigger than every timeline, infinitely so.

Yes timelines are 4D structures (3+1D) so to contain them or if you are infinitely bigger than one, it is still 4+1D
the only exception is if the number of timelines you contain are infinite in number, and in this regard, the numbers are not infinite.
Do not get me wrong I am not saying his scenario cannot be correct, I am saying the reason why we have 4-D to begin with is cause we assumed the ocean in between to be a 5D structure and not space per say, but here he mentions it to be space.

Gotta just quote Ultima:

And he is correct here, also. I do not really see how that affects my argument that what I thought the ocean inbetween was in upgrade thread was a 5D structure and not space

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I do not get this parrt

Typo. I meant you can’t.

Yes timelines are 4D structures (3+1D) so to contain them or if you are infinitely bigger than one, it is still 4+1D
the only exception is if the number of timelines you contain are infinite in number, and in this regard, the numbers are not infinite.
Do not get me wrong I am not saying his scenario cannot be correct, I am saying the reason why we have 4-D to begin with is cause we assumed the ocean in between to be a 5D structure and not space per say, but here he mentions it to be space.

The Ocean Between is space, it’s the hyperspace between the space-times.

 

[Bobsican]

It being a 5-D structure, with the "extra" axis being a temporal one would require that there's only a single universe in the cosmology at a time, which isn't the case as there's multiple ones at once, and for that a 5th spatial axis would be required as I've quoted from Ultima's explanation.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

This thread makes sense enough to me, Each of the KH Worlds are 4D, it was accepted that the Ocean Between transcends that by a spatial Dimension due to it's size in previous thread's, and it has a separate Time Axis altogether.

So if I read correctly

4 Spatial Dimensions, 2 Temporal?

3 Spatial from each "world", along with 1 Temporal

And then the ocean between having 1 Spatial above those worlds in addition to 1 Temporal

Correct me if I said something wrong there, but, sounds 6D to me.

 

[Bobsican]

That's the premise, yes.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Can you relink the previous thread?

 

[Kingofwolves999]

low 1-C Mouskatool

 

[Bobsican]

Can you relink the previous thread?

Here

 

[RandomGuy2345]

 

[RandomGuy2345]

 

[Kingofwolves999]

The last thing Goku sees

 

[Axl233]

I'm think in order to be 6D it needs to transcend the Ocean Between(like the Quadratum world for example) instead of just nuking the time/space axis and reseting.

 

[Axl233]

On the other hand i do find hilarious the ideia of goofy or donald duck soloing 90% of fiction.

 

[Bobsican]

I'm think in order to be 6D it needs to transcend the Ocean Between(like the Quadratum world for example) instead of just nuking the time/space axis and reseting.

That'd be more for being physically qualitatively 6-D over merely having tier 1 stats like AP and Durability, think like how many tier 2 characters have tier 2 stats but don't have the AoE or physiology of a universe or above.

If you instead mean on the reasoning for 6-D being outside your expectations to qualify, I've already quoted the OP on this method being valid within the current standards, some verses even currently are tier 1 by this kind of semantics.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Low 1-C Goofy, let's gooo!
I agree.

 

[Sniper670]

Gross

 

[Ikelaggan]

It's pretty simple temporal axis encompassment, I've done smaller scale stuff like this Off site so I see where this is going with 6D.

 

[Eseseso]

The last thing Goku sees

I spit out my drink at this.

Agree with OP.

 

[Strife304]

I agree with what's been presented so far.

 

[Robo432343]

goofy ahh 6d

 

[Vasco]

Agree with the OP.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Neutral for now, Tier 1 isn't exactly my strong point. But for now I will lean towards thinking it looks alright.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Lynieryz]

Agree FRA

 

[Nehz_XZX]

The number of dimensions that is being suggested makes sense to me though I can't say that I'm very knowledgeable regarding dimensionality standards.

 

[DarkGrath]

Assuming that the starting premises are correct (i.e.: that the Ocean Between has been accepted as a 5-D structure, and that it possesses it's own space-time continuum), I believe this does indeed fit what the tiering system FAQ describes and should therefore be 6-D. However, I would like someone knowledgeable on tier 1 standards to verify that we are not misinterpreting the tiering system FAQ's statements.

What I'm admittedly struggling to understand is the case for the Ocean Between having a timeline in the first place. I imagine it's primarily due to a lack of knowledge on the verse itself, but I don't quite get what the premises in the linked blog are trying to say. For one example:

"The mere fact Mickey and company time traveled from the "present" to quite far in the past requires a time axis to begin with, and per the above we do know that the times of the "worlds" they'd be on would have been established way after the timeline of the "world" of the age of fairytales ceased to be, this combined with how they'd have to have been in the Ocean Between at the time (Mickey, Chip and Dale appear with a Star Shard, a device to travel across the "worlds", and Donald and Goofy appear with a Gummi Ship, another device to travel across the "worlds" too), leads to the considerable implication that the Ocean Between has its own time axis, especially considering that they also went back into the Ocean Between to seemingly go back into the future."

This seems like one of the crux paragraphs, but despite re-reading it multiple times, I don't know what exactly it proves. In regards to the fact that "Mickey and company time travelled from the present to quite far off in the past", couldn't they have done so while in one of the worlds with an established time axis rather than the Ocean Between? You do address that they appear with a Star Shard, a device to "travel across the worlds", but I don't see how this shows they time travelled while in the Ocean Between rather than in one of the worlds. We know that they went into the Ocean Between at some point, and we also know that they time travelled at some point, but it's not clear whether they did both at the same point - these could have been independent events, for what I can tell. What shows that they had to have been in the Ocean Between rather than another world when they time travelled?

For another thing:

"As further proof, there's also how the Realm of Darkness is stated to parallel the Realm of Light (with the Realm of Light being the main portion of the Ocean Between given the same overall definition), yet the Realm of Darkness is stated to specifically lack time, implying that this is different from the Realm of Light (and thus the Ocean Between by definition), with the Realm of Light being the main area for most main characters, including Aqua (the one stating it)."

The Realm of Darkness is stated to be the parallel for the Realm of Light, and the Realm of Darkness is stated to have no time. This much appears to be true, but I'm not sure I understand the implication here - the two realms being "parallels" of one another can mean many things, many possibilities of which don't inherently mean their approach to time in particular is mirrored. If they are "parallel" (just for one example, not necessarily the correct example) in the sense that the physical world in the Realm of Light is mirrored in the Realm of Darkness, this doesn't really have any implications on how the two realms treat time. The fact that the Realm of Darkness doesn't possess time doesn't inherently mean the Realm of Light does (or, more specifically, that all of it possesses time).

And another thing:

"Finally, the Master of Masters does a monologue about how they will end the world and discard time (explicitly including beyond the "world" of the age of fairytales, thus the Ocean Between), all to defeat the darkness."

The quote in question linked states "That's why we need to leave this world - to bring it to an end, to abandon the notion of time and what separates our worlds. All so we can defeat the darkness.". Even if "what separates our worlds" is the Ocean Between, this doesn't conflate the two concepts together - in fact, it refers to abandoning the "notion of time" and "what separates our worlds" independently. This doesn't suggest time is a part of "what separates our worlds".

I know this post has already gone on obnoxiously long, but my point is that every interpretation I've seen in the blog seems to leave some room for doubt - I've not seen anything give a very strong case for the Ocean Between possessing it's own time axis, just a few things that might suggest it. I'd like elaboration on the points I've brought up, because most of what I've seen seems speculative and open to doubt.