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Kaguya Houraisan vs Yhwach

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But by the time Kaguya "activated" her power it's too late tho. It's not "Yhwach activates his power at the same time Kaguya thinks to activate it", it's they both activate at the same time.

Also not sure if that counts but Kaguya's Eternity ability also influences the future. Since it's eternal it will also stop changes in the future too. Not sure if that would counter any future manipulation.
 
@Fate: Problem is that you assume she think in the future, or that her power have to happen in the future as well, instead of the literal instant that she enter. The speed won't matter since in the instant, the concept of time that we know of seize to exist. In a dimensional sense, she would be entering into a 3D space without the present of time, since this is the gap between.

...Which would lean back into the hamster wheel. I'm going to sleep.
 
Activation at the same time...

What it should normally be:

(Somewhere in the future that is coming...)

>> Kaguya eternally freezes something. >> Almighty does its thing against Kaguya, but Yhwach gets frozen so gg.

What actually happens:

(Somewhere in the future that is coming...)

>> Kaguya eternally f- Never! I think I'll rewrite this to "Kaguya's power will fail in its activation because I consider it too much of a threat to let her use it." Yeah. Sounds good. - By Yhwach.

They may activate at the same time, but Yhwach's power decides what Kaguya's activation will result in.
 
^Except the result require Yhwach to alter the previous future, which, surprise, mean that the Kaguya result's already happen.

See why I said it a paradox?
 
@Fate Is this downplaying or just a plain old assumption? The more this kept on, the more I really need to ask a admin for this or maybe reach a verdict as this is getting more worse than it was in the start.
 
Again, here we are at the infinite speed Kaguya thing...Yet again... *sigh*

You're putting words in my mouth. When did I assume she thinks anything in the future? I'm saying her power has to come after she thinks to activate it in the present moment. If you deny this, you go straight back to infinite speed Kaguya. And that's even more speculation on your part for Kaguya's power, Andy. If this keeps up, I'll have to start asking for feats.
 
Starkiller215 said:
@Fate Is this downplaying or just a plain old assumption? The more this kept on, the more I really need to ask a admin for this or maybe reach a verdict as this is getting more worse than it was in the start.
Click to expand...
No, it's actually feats of what he did against Tensa Zangetsu activation, against Orihime's power activation and pretty much everyone who fought him, whenever he wanted.
 
Yet Kaguya's power could also just prevent the future and the present to bend to Yhwach's will.

The question being, will Yhwach be able to change the future that Kaguya has made eternally the same? Or will Yhwach manage to change the future and present that Kaguya made to be forever this way.

the fact that we don't know is why I think this is Inconclusive.
 
Again, here we are at the infinite speed Kaguya thing...Yet again... *sigh*

You're putting words in my mouth. When did I assume she thinks anything in the future? I'm saying her power has to come after she thinks to activate it in the present moment. If you deny this, you go straight back to infinite speed Kaguya. And that's even more speculation on your part for Kaguya's power, Andy. If this keeps up, I'll have to start asking for feats.

...And Yhwach power don't? He also have to think to activate it before it happen. And if their speed is equalize, so is their thought. So they end up thinking about it as the same time and end up activate it as the same time.
 
And right. We'll die down the thread after Yhwach got enough votes to win and after a prolonged discussion. Veeeeeeeeeeery fair.
 
No, it's actually feats of what he did against Tensa Zangetsu activation, against Orihime's power activation and pretty much everyone who fought him, whenever he wanted.

I see. That was countered by Tsukishima with his Fullbringer abilities, but it was a nice feat nonetheless.
 
A prolonged discussion that isn't even over. Yes people agreed with you but your point is still being debated.
 
Indeed. Tsukishima warps the past, Yhwach warps the future. His ability is the perfect counter against the Almighty... Alongside PIS.

And Saikou, I didn't say the thread should be outright closed on Yhwach's. I'm just saying that closing it with no results after this much debating would leave a bitter taste in my mouth, whatever the result... I'd feel less thrilled to discuss in other matches related to said verses, if this is how it ends.
 
I agree that closing it right now shouldn't be done, unless the debate gets too hostile, which it isn't. I just don't want for the debate to be cut and addedd to Yhwach's victory.
 
You got it. Yhwach's power works in advance. It warps the future that is to come. He may think at the same time as Kaguya, but I keep telling you, what his power will influence is the result of Kaguya's own activation that is going to happen. Because Kaguya's power didn't happen yet, it will be altered. The activation won't happen in the way she wills it to happen. It might not even happen, like how Ichigo pulled Tensa Zangetsu and it was already broken before he could use it.
 
@Fate I really see this thread with no results as this has been confusing and I for one said this thread should have closed with no result or possible Yhwach's Vic, but I find that has been vague details on what his powers exactly do there or I could be wrong there.
 
Yet Kaguya could also influence if Almighty will work or not. they both affect the future in their own way.
 
You got it. Yhwach's power works in advance. It warps the future that is to come. He may think at the same time as Kaguya, but I keep telling you, what his power will influence is the result of Kaguya's own activation that is going to happen. Because Kaguya's power didn't happen yet, it will be altered. The activation won't happen in the way she wills it to happen. It might not even happen, like how Ichigo pulled Tensa Zangetsu and it was already broken before he could use it.

But that mean you're saying that when he think before he activate his power, he would have already altered the future. Which would go contraly to what his feat said about his power.
 
Andykhang said:
But that mean you're saying that when he think before he activate his power, he would have already altered the future. Which would go contraly to what his feat said about his power.
Click to expand...
No, he activates it at the same time as Kaguya, but here's where it gets complicated. While Kaguya's activation results should be happening right next to her thought, Yhwach's own activation will change either what her manipulation results in OR what her action of thinking that she wants to use her ability will result in. They are activated at the same time, no doubt, but the future of what this results in gets rewritten. It's influencing what is yet to happen.
 
@Starkiller It's a possibility. Which probably could be good for me, as it would mean I'd never go near another Bleach or Touhou thread, if all this talk from both sides ends up being waste of breath.
 
Again, Kaguya's ability could also theorically affect not only the present but the future as well.

Let's say she puts the "Eternity" aspect on all of the planet. It will mean the planet will stay as it is, forever. Thus Yhwach couldn't change the future of the whole planet.

But again it's a question of whose hax is more "powerful" than the others.
 
Alright since I am neutral on this match, I will vote for inconclusive as even Yhwach could influence the future, but it is possible that Kaguya may use that influence to her advantage, but to what extent I have no clue.
 
Cause I've never seen Kaguya's power altering the future before it actually happened nor anything of planetary scale yet (though proof of this one is less important than proof of the first).
 
Depends what you mean.

Kaguya managed to Instantly causes the morning to happen in IN's ending, which means planetary range.

Her Etenrity manipulation has been compared to time stop. She can also change which aspect to put into "eternity", as shown with Perfect Momento in Strict Sense.
 
Here is what it said about her immorality as well: However she got selfish, and managed to get Eirin Yagokoro to create the Hourai Elixir out of self-interest and consumed it. This was illegal, and she was executed. She was immortal, so therefore she was executed many times; this was impossible, so she instead was exiled to Earth and forced to live among filthy humans as punishment. Are we gonna forget about Kaguya's immorality as well?
 
Immortality would only make her survive, but Incapacitation is part of the Win condition, so it won't help for long.
 
Planetary in Range doesn't mean planetary in power, though. Compared to time stop, yes it was... If she uses it, it may be even better than time stop, freezing something eternally in a state of imutability. Hence I'm not even questioning Yhwach should be frozen if she actually used it.

The feat I'm asking for is to see her using her Eternity powers to influence the future before it even happens, like the Almighty does. I've never seen Kaguya use her power and, before it even happens, the future itself is already affected. That's the feat I'm asking for, because you're saying she can "influence the future" as well.
 
@Fate When I check her abilities regarding that matter, it did mentioned having parallel timelines at the same time, but I not so sure if that will count as a influence on the future.
 
Moot point. Still no sign of altering the future before it happens as it's being implied/suggested time and again here. I gave solid proof as to why Yhwach has these powers as many times as people asked, it's only fair that I ask for some from Kaguya in return - I know Touhou and Kaguya's limits very well, but hey, maybe I missed something, right? You never know.
 
...I feel like we are going to get into another "How does Yhwach's powers works" debate.

Just that by sheer causality, if she puts an object or being into pure imutability, it will obviously also be "frozen" in the future.

If Yhwach can just warp reality of the future, then the future will already be "frozen" when he attempts to modify it unless I'm wrong.
 
...Except that she never demonstrated anything of the sort and saying she can by speculation falls into NLF territory. See above when I said the way Kaguya's powers are being put into perspective here is the same as giving Yukari unlimited Boundary Manipulation.

An naaaah, if someone asks me about Yhwach again, I'll say, "Yeah, read those two hundred replies above for the answer." Muahahahahahaha-*cough* *cough*
 
..Yeah but the sheer fact that she makes it happen in the present makes it happen in the future because that's how causality works.
 
Sadly for her, if she can't influence the future in advance, her ability won't be even happening.

EDIT: Also, Scarlet, there's KillitwithC4 vote for Yhwach as well.
 
Not sure if we have the same vision of causality.

The future already exists, so if you do something now, it will affect the future. It won't "wait" until the time flows to it to happen. Especially if it's part of the normal causality like Kaguya doing it.

All I see Yhwach doing is reality warping the future, but it's not like Kaguya's effect will only happen once time flows to this point in time.
 
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