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Kaguya Houraisan vs Yhwach

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Nah, it's different, Saik. To put it in simple terms, most skills usually are on off mode, by default. It just so happens that the Almighty is in On, by default, UNLESS it's base Yhwach. Soul King Form would start in it's default mode. Rather than "activating" almighty by will, he would rather have to "deactivate" it by will, if he wanted.
 
Really now? Huh....than Yhwach's Almighty over powers Kaguya's ability then if it's like that? I read all of the chapters of that but i just presume he can turn it on and off....hmmm.....
 
These kinds of skills aren't even discussed in the Standard Battle Assumption IIRC. Like I said we should wait for OP to react.
 
I agree on the OP opinion being crucial to the point. The point I was making is that if he indeed wants Yhwach at his strongest form, he would start with almighty activated simply because the form itself works like that - like a permanent "passive" ability or stat.

If he says, however, that Yhwach starts in this form but with Almighty deactivated, take note that it's not his moustach... I mean, it's not Yhwach at his strongest anymore.
 
To be fair neither is Kaguya here, with speed equalized.

I honestly question weather or not Yhwach becoming immune to anything ever is legit or an NLF at this point. But I'm guessing it's not something I'm allowed to talk about in a VS Thread.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
I honestly question weather or not Yhwach becoming immune to anything ever is legit or an NLF at this point.
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This would only applied if Kaguya is stronger than him. Before Aizen re-caught him in illusions, in the other dimension he was immune to every attack with the almighty on. Except for physical strenght, Hax aren't excluded when it comes to this, since she is weaker than him.
 
I don't exactly get what you're saying.

Him no selling hax is a thing, but if he doesn't no sell hax similar to Kaguya's, it means nothing really. What about her being weaker than him though?
 
Yup. It's pretty much "who prevents the other from using their own hax first"?

Hence, my vote will be as follows: Yhwach starts with Almighty? Yhwach wins.

Starts without Almighty? Kaguya most likely wins via eternally stopping him, unless she messes around long enough for him to activate his hax, which I don't know if she would do in character.

And yes, Saikou, I'm with you there. Some of the final powers showcased in Bleach are... Hard to gauge, to say the least. *cough*I'm looking at you, Gerard*cough* Guess we all know the reasons why, but let's not get into that, lest the thread goes off the rails. I'll just wait for the OP input on this one.
 
Well weather or not Yhwach could no sells Kaguya's ability is kinda relevant to this thread. Not sure if it was discussed elsewhere but I feel it would need to be.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
I don't exactly get what you're saying.
Him no selling hax is a thing, but if he doesn't no sell hax similar to Kaguya's, it means nothing really. What about her being weaker than him though?
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Yhwach became inmune to a low-conceptual manipulation attack, from Ichibei's attack that won't allowed the victim to reincarnate and destroy them completly. Can Kaguya hax be considered in this ranks ? Ichibei controlls all the darkness in the world/universe. (depending on the japanase kanji, for the translation.), You can't take from him, and he can remove your existence and create a new one for you with his ink, by removing your name he basically makes you powerless and can re-name you into anything by giving you the abilities of which he names you. Yhwach was named and had the powers of an Ant, and his Almighty was still able to make him inmune after he was struke with the power, and he remove his effects. (But surprisely, he can't do the same with illusions, such as Aizen's. Since they won't allowed him to do what he wants, and what he would do will not be real.) < Does Kaguya has something like this in her arsenal?
 
He's not no selling the hax, Saikou, he's rewritting it so it doesn't even happen in the first place. Like, imagine some point in the future, an attack which could result in his defeat was coming. He sees that and rewrites so that disappears from the future and turns into an entirely different situation altogether.
 
It's what he did with Tensa Zangetsu, and the reason we don't even know what is Ichigo's bankai. As soon as Ichigo tried to use the sword's power, it was already broken. And how he rewrote the future where he was dead.
 
FateAlbane said:
He's not no selling the hax, Saikou, he's rewritting it so it doesn't even happen in the first place. Like, imagine some point in the future, an attack which could result in his defeat was coming. He sees that and rewrites so that disappears from the future and turns into an entirely different situation altogether.
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More or less, an nutshell explination.
 
Are we not gonna talk about the fight? I mean this pretty much just went to how Yhwach is and his powers.....
 
No it's not just that, Fate. It's like we just went from "Kaguya blitzs and freezes Yhwach in place/Yhwach one shots and absorbs Kaguya or whatever" to just going over his hax.

At this point, i just don't know to let this continue on anymore.....
 
In that case, I think it would be best if we all just dropped the "powers" subject and waited for the OP to come back so he can review the conditions of the match, allowing the actual debate at hand to continue properly.
 
Both are honestly inconclusive.

Yhwach isn't killing her any time soon, but his dura is too much for Kaguya to do anything against.

Round 2 is also inconclusive, it's nigh-impossible to tell which ability will act first (Assuming you mean "Using" as in Yhwach using his Future Manipulation at the same time as Kaguya using her Eternity manipulation)
 
Oh yeah, Kaguya manipulation of the instant isn't just making thing happen in literal instant. Here's how it's explain in the wiki:

"With "instantaneous", it's namely the gaps, the instant that's impossible to recognise the existence of anything else. Kaguya, in being able to manipulate the instantaneous, is able to mish-mash the needed "instants" and make them her own time. However, whatever she gathers together, since the fact that they're the "unrecognisable instant" can't be changed, she has no means of knowing what's within the instant. For this reason, in manipulating the instantaneous, Kaguya's able to spend "time the same as others'" and "time different from others'" simultaneously."

That mean because it's the time no one else could figured it out, she could just do her freeze in that without Yhwach being able to regconize, and thus manipulated.
 
Round 1: Yhwach can use Sankt Altar to steal her power and absorb her

Round 2 : When Yhwach activates Almighty , he can see future and immune to HAX of the enemy . Then Yhwach rewrite the future to one where he beat her or absorb her ... again
 
^Her power came most from her gear in that round though, and her soul is literally unchangable, due to Kaguya Elixir (Zun's way to said Hourai Elixir) is infused with her power to reject change.

Round 2: Unless Kaguya also activate her eternity manipulation to make her future unchangable, and then using that to make him unchangable, aka unable to change his future, or his very self and frozen in eternity. We're talking about the type of manipulation that managed to hide from the eyes of the lunar capital, where we got monster that have the entire universe to jinx her here.
 
Well, these new rules kinda change my analysis on the matter.

Round 1: Yhwach. He still got a fair share of hax even without the Almighty, and that coupled with his overall superior stats should give him the win (again, the pain of the damage will acumulate until the point she doesn't die and gets incapacitated, even if he doesn't necessarily absorb her powers).

Round 2: Again, Yhwach's power works before the power of the enemy happens. Like, Future Rewritting. If they use it at the same time, Yhwach will do the same thing he did to Tensa Zangetsu. Kaguya tries to use her power, the power doesn't happen/work as it should because Yhwach went and rewrote that. See his match against Ichigo and Orihime for that matter.

And you're assuming too much with that last part, Andy. Kaguya doing something like that not only comes from the assumption that she would know how Yhwach's power works from the get go and try to avoid it in such a way that he gets countered but also that she can do that in battle, which frankly speaking, there's nothing suggesting she really could.

And the main problem is that Yhwach's power may seem like it works on the present when you look at it, but it works in advance. When Yhwach activates his hax at the same time as the opponent, then it's assuming at the same time the opponent is activating it, he is rewritting the future - aka the result of his opponents's action. Like I said before, that's why Kaguya's power working in an instant will not be enough in this situation.
 
^That's if he know all about the opponent. There's still the realm of the unregconizable instant, precisely because of the fact that no one could have enough sense to know what's in there. Yhwach got a fatal weakness in being unable to change the thing that he couldn't see, so if he couldn't see that realm from the start, then Kaguya could still have the freedom to do whatever she pleased.
 
The almighty literally allows him to see every possible future like grains of sand at the same time, and rewrite it as he desires. He states these exact words and proceeds to prove it time and again. Yhwach wasn't caught by surprise that one time because he couldn't see a certain future, he was caught by surprise because waaaaay back in the past, tons of chapters ago, while the Almighty was not even activated yet and he didn't have the Soul King Powers, Aizen had got him with Kyouka Suigetsu and that was still working. He can see every possible future, what he can't be looking at and warping is the past.

However, as soon as he rewrote the future, even Aizen's power stopped working.

You need to get him with the hax before he's using his own, unless your hax is something even more broken. If this wasn't speed equalized, Kaguya would win easily. But with the same speed and he starting with Almighty at the same time, she's not getting around it.

Whatever Kaguya intends on doing, it's still "going to happen". And whatever is going to happen is still the future, no matter the name you give to it.

Edit: Also, this is the last time I'll be speaking about his powers. My opinion on the matter is pretty much settled by now. If we keep going in this direction of "his powers work or don't work like that", we'll be running in circles forever.
 
Kaguya is still Country lvl tier, exact like Ichibei. Yhwach with the Almighty, became immune to his powers after been under their effects, and one-shot him. Kaguya is Country lvl so she's getting one-shot as well. Saying her powers will work on him, is nlf at this point.
 
@FateAlbane: What about the time where he couldn't see the arrow coming and pierce his heart? If he could see it, he could have avoid it from hitting altogether then?

And yeah ,but that only applied when Kaguya think after the activation, since the event "think" happen in the future that he could change. If she think in advance what she's going to anti-change, then go into the instant the same time he activate Almighty, then we got ourself a reverse case of the Grandfather paradox.

@Hokage: Hax is unrelated to attack potency, most of the case. Just like how a character could still be speed blizt by someone with island tier,despite being country tier.
 
Andykhang said:
@FateAlbane: What about the time where he couldn't see the arrow coming and pierce his heart? If he could see it, he could have avoid it from hitting altogether then?
And yeah ,but that only applied when Kaguya think after the activation, since the event think happen in the future that he could change. If she think in advance what she's going to anti-change, then go into the instant the same time he activate Almighty, then we got ourself a reverse case of the Grandfather paradox.
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PIS. Because Bleach needed a happy ending, Yhwach had to lose somehow. The entire way he lost was god lvl PIS. Also, he probably wouldn't be able to mess with that arrow even if he wanted, as it was the one thing that could nullify his powers, but that's speculation.

What? Unless you're saying Yhwach enters the match at 0.0 seconds already paralyzed, then whatever Kaguya intends to do is still the future. There's no paradox. Also, now you're not only assuming Kaguya literally knows the Almighty and what it does from the get go, but that she also stops it in the most improbable way ever before Yhwach makes the most likely scenario happen.
 
Andykhang said:
@FateAlbane: What about the time where he couldn't see the arrow coming and pierce his heart? If he could see it, he could have avoid it from hitting altogether then?
And yeah ,but that only applied when Kaguya think after the activation, since the event "think" happen in the future that he could change. If she think in advance what she's going to anti-change, then go into the instant the same time he activate Almighty, then we got ourself a reverse case of the Grandfather paradox.

@Hokage: Hax is unrelated to attack potency, most of the case. Just like how a character could still be speed blizt by someone with island tier,despite being country tier.
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Ichibei Country lvl + Hax similar to Kaguya if not better. Got one-shot when Yhwach activated the Almighty. She get's the same threatment, since speed is equalized.
 

What? Unless you're saying Yhwach enters the match at 0.0 seconds already paralyzed, then whatever Kaguya intends to do is still the future. There's no paradox. Also, now you're not only assuming Kaguya literally knows the Almighty and what it does from the get go, but that she also stops it in the most improbable way ever before Yhwach makes the most likely scenario happen.

Because the instant is the smallest unit of time, meaning that when you goes there, time won't move forward. Meaning whatever she done there, it's not in the future, but literally in the present. Yhwach can't manipulate that. Also she doesn't need to know that to know that he's dangerous, and put a stop to his action by literally stopping him in eternity.
 
 
^Again, that because he changed the result that's happen in the future, and because the hax itself isn't affecting his ability.

But Kaguya could, and more over would know something would have happen in the future because she then would feel the force that tried to change her, who reject change. Arguing about whether she could do it is pointless though, since this is a hax vs hax.

Edit: and lol, you comment so fast, the notification isn't even appear. It's like it happen in the instant
 
Andykhang said:
Because the instant is the smallest unit of time, meaning that when you goes there, time won't move forward. Meaning whatever she done there, it's not in the future, but literally in the present. Yhwach can't manipulate that. Also she doesn't need to know that to know that he's dangerous, and put a stop to his action by literally stopping him in eternity.
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You really want Kaguya to win this, huh?

Sadly, what you said just now would imply infinite speed Kaguya because she would take her action without the smallest fraction of a second happening. Kaguya needs some fraction of time to activate her powers and Yhwach needs the same ammount of time with speed equalized. Where Kaguya loses this is because Yhwach's power despite being activated at the same time, actually happens in advance to the moment they use it. The results of Kaguya's action of activating her power will be in failure because Yhwach rewrites it to an entirely different situation.
 
Andykhang said:
^Again, that because he changed the result that's happen in the future, and because the hax itself isn't affecting his ability.
But Kaguya could, and more over would know something would have happen in the future because she then would feel the force that tried to change her, who reject change. Arguing about whether she could do it is pointless though, since this is a hax vs hax.
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No, the hax was supposed to affect him so he should have the powers of an ant. Yhwach no selled it. What? How would Kaguya know what's going to happen? She has no precognition nor anything of the sort. The power is not only directly changing Kaguya, it's changing what will happen in the future itself and Kaguya, like it or not, will be taking actions in the future, unless you persist in a claim that would be the same thing as giving her infinite speed from 0.0 seconds of the match.
 
Ichibei denied all power ( include HAX ) of Yhwach but he will regain it and immune to all other HAX . I don't see why kaguya has a difference . And " Both of them use it as the same time " she don't use ability faster than Yhwach .
 
Well ,who wouldn't want their favourite franchise to not win though.

And I said that Instant is the smallest unit of time, not that it's infinitely small. The instant here is more like the framerate of the video, where you manipulate the single frame to affect what happen in the next. It's not that Kaguya have infinite speed, but rather the universe isn't dividing itself infinitely
 
Raito Utopia said:
Ichibei denied all power ( include HAX ) of Yhwach but he will regain it and immune to all other HAX . I don't see why kaguya has a difference . And " Both of them use it as the same time " she don't use ability faster than Yhwach .
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Speed equalize, remember. Not to mention they could activate it with just a thought.

And this is where you when to the problem of Immovable mass and unstoppable force, or hax vs hax. This isn't going to be known unless both of them face each other for real, or face similar opponent in-verse.

Edit: And about the precog thing... kinda? I mean if she want for something to not change, she must first regconize that something must be changing before she froze it. Manipulating the eternity mean recognizing change that happen to everything, so it isn't that weird to said she felt the "force" to change.
 
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