Kaguya Houraisan vs Yhwach

[FateAlbane]

Well ,who wouldn't want their favourite franchise to not win though.
And I said that Instant is the smallest unit of time, not that it's infinitely small. The instant here is more like the framerate of the video, where you manipulate the single frame to affect what happen in the next. It's not that Kaguya have infinite speed, but rather the universe isn't dividing itself infinitely

Again... Speed is equalized... It doesn't matter how fast Kaguya is activating her power. Yhwach is activating it at the exact same time. And her power is not getting trough because it doesn't matter how small the fraction is, BEFORE she can use it, before its effect has a chance to happen, before she activates it, somewhere, in the future, when Yhwach activates his power alongside her, he will change that. Rewrite it to whatever outcome he desires.

It's precisely what he did to Ichigo when he assumed Tensa Zangetsu was a menace. He went into the future and destroyed it before Ichigo could pull it off or use any of its powers.

And since I've been explaining Yhwach's powers time and again here, I'll have to say that I am familiar with Kaguya and Touhou for that matter. You're putting a lot of speculation on how Kaguya's powers work. If this keeps up, we'll end up entering NLF territory here.

 

[FateAlbane]

Saying Kaguya can manipulate eternity the way you're implying sounds almost the same as saying that Yukari's Boundary manipulation has no limits.

 

[Raito_Utopia]

this is why I'm tired with NLF . I know he looking for more victories for Touhou verse . But Yhwach's HAX has more feat than kaguya to win

 

[Andykhang]

^You're still assuming that there's still the different in time even when I said they activate it as the same time. There's no telling what's going to happen since they all can activate it with a thought, and the speed is equalize. And again, I said the instant is the smallest unit of time, meaning that when you're in the instant, you won't move into the future because there's literally no amount of time smaller than that...Unless you said Yhwach is a being that could escape the constrain of time then?

 

[Scarletmoon56]

Gracious, I haven't seen a Touhou thread this long since the Reimu vs Dante thread. Anyway, I'm actually going to side with Yhwach for reasons above. He seems to have much more hax and outclasses Kaguya in every other category minus speed but it's equalized. From my point, Kaguya only has her Eternity Manipulation and Godly-Regenerationn going on for her. If only she had the same AP and dura as Yhwach would she have a chance?

 

[FateAlbane]

Andy, how many times do I have to explain that whatever Kaguya intends to do is going to be changed before it actually happens?

You are insisting on the claim that would only be possible if Kaguya had infinite speed. You're implying that, as soon as the match starts, Yhwach doesn't even use the Almighty properly because Kaguya literally uses her power at 0.0 seconds, it takes 0.0 seconds for her to activate it, it takes 0.0 for Yhwach to be eternally frozen and the match starts and finishes without 0.00 (insert a billion zeros here) of a second passing.

You just said it yourself. An instant may be the smallest unit of time, but it's still a unit. And as long as the smallest unit changes, we're entering future territory here. And for the last time - I hope - with speed equalized, no matter how small of a fraction of time Kaguya needs to take to use her ability, Yhwach needs just the same. Her power will have to happen in the future. What you're claiming is that as soon as the match starts, 0.0, Yhwach is already frozen for eternity.

That's absurd.

 

[FateAlbane]

@Scarletmoon Reimu vs Dante?

I was there. And I lost. But now I'm back... With a vengeance! LOL, jk, that debate was neat! Kaguya is very haxxed, I admit, and if the thread was asking who I like better, I'd choose her any day of the week. But Yhwach's main ability is just too broken. Being impartial pains my heart.

Now on topic...

Yeah, the problem with Kaguya's regen is that different from most Low-Godly out there, she can still be incapacitated if her opponnent manages to damage/hit her enough. And it just so happens that Yhwach also has tons of problematic hax like the aforementioned Soul Absorption and, most important, the almighty.

 

[Andykhang]

@FateAlbane: Yes, I did want to said that... which, now that I think about it, it's completely absurd. Then again, she probably does use that ability for insane thing, like collecting object in the span of times that would make it impossible (like the apollo flag ), or not even in the right series (like the Red stone of Aja). Her power could work like Present Manipulation, in my opinion.

The instants is the realm of quantum and probability...

 

[LobsterFiend]

Andy, how many times do I have to explain that whatever Kaguya intends to do is going to be changed before it actually happens?
You are insisting on the claim that would only be possible if Kaguya had infinite speed. You're implying that, as soon as the match starts, Yhwach doesn't even use the Almighty properly because Kaguya literally uses her power at 0.0 seconds, it takes 0.0 seconds for her to activate it, it takes 0.0 for Yhwach to be eternally frozen and the match starts and finishes without 0.00 (insert a billion zeros here) of a second passing.

That's absurd.

If I'm reading her powers correctly, I think that's entirely plausible because even 0.0x10^-1000000000 seconds can be considered an "instant" and the concept of instants should extend to the infinity. The thing about instants is that it is inconceivable to those who cannot perceive it. According to SSiB, to those who cannot perceive it, time appears to be continuous and therefore, an infinite amount of instants exist. I don't think there is any reason to believe that Yhwach is able to perceive the instantaneous to the same degree that Kaguya can because he should only have a normal sense of it. In other words, if Yhwach activates his Almighty in a single "instant," all Kaguya needs to do is activate her powers an infinite number of instants before his. This is all based on the idea that Kaguya's perception of "instant" transcends Yhwach's perception of "instant."

But let's say I'm wrong and they actually do it at the "same time" for all intents and purposes, I don't see how Yhwach is suppose to have an advantage over her since he can't see and rewrite the future before he activates Almighty, right?. If the condition "using it at the same time" means that they use it in the literal same "instant," then my vote goes for inconclusive. If the fight starts while taking their perception of the instantaneous into account, then my vote goes for Kaguya.

 

[HokageMangaVox]

Yhwach only needs a thought, which is also in an instant. She dies in the same way Ichibei did.

 

[LobsterFiend]

Yhwach only needs a thought, which is also in an instant. She dies in the same way Ichibei did.

They both only need a thought. But my premise is that Kaguya's perception of an instant should transcend Yhwach's perception of an instant. It's a unique concept in Touhou that the Lunarians use to fight against impurity because the impure cannot comprehend the instantaneous to same degree.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Are you saying Yhwach has like infinite speed kek? Because the "Instants" in Touhou are literally instant. As in, in the timeframe of an instant, time doesn't flow at all. Yhwach's "Instant" is far different from Kaguya's.

Also Kaguya's not dying any time soon. But she may be incapacited.

 

[FateAlbane]

No, he has the exact same speed as Kaguya. Good lord, it doesn't matter how fast Kaguya's ability ITSELF is, Kaguya, the character, HERSELF, the person, still needs to activate it by her own will. The ability is not automatic, the ability doesn't have some sentience that will make it happen by itself at 0.000 (insert infinity zeros then a number one here).

The ability won't be "lol, I activate by myself at 0 point whatever trillion zeros I want."

It will take Kaguya to have the thought of activating it THEN the ability will take effect in the span of that time. Yhwach will think at once and when said result of Kaguya's ability was supposed to happen (all within the infinity zeroes or infinity x infinity zeroes you're implying it will work at, which again, there's no feat proving she can do stuff like that except going from speculation...), it won't. Then it won't matter anymore because it will be rewritten again and again before she uses it properly. Simple as that.

 

[FateAlbane]

It's like saying a character that shoots a laser is instantly SoL or FTL because the laser he shoots moves at that speed.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I'm saying that because Hokage claimed Yhwach could act in the same "Instant" as Kaguya's "Instant", which is just false. Haven't followed what the thread was about now, just saying that.

 

[FateAlbane]

Right. So we'll just outright ignore the fact that they activate it at once here? And technically yes, an instant may extend itself, divide itself to infinitely small units, but here's where Kaguya's limitation comes in.

I'll answer you the exact same thing I did to Andy: She would be able to do that if she had infinite speed and full absolute control of Eternity, but saying that right now is NLF, unless there's some feat of Kaguya using her powers in said infinitely small scale. Like, she activates it and it takes effect in the span of 0. 0 (infinity zeroes) 1.

Yhwach's advantage comes from the fact that his powers influence every possible future that is to come. He will prevent Kaguya's power from happening. Kaguya's power should happen after she activates it. Yhwach's power works on what this very after is going to be, and can rewrite it.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

No. If both of their power activate at the same time, the "Eternal" thing should apply instantly to Yhwach, but so should Yhwach's Future Manipulation. There is no way to know what will happen then imo.

 

[FateAlbane]

Yes, there is, because Yhwach's power textbook definition is that it works ahead of the present time. Putting things into perspective:

(the very present)

Yhwach has the thought to activate the almighty

Kaguya has the thought to activate Eternity manip.

(whatever ammount of time they'll be needing to think and activate it).

>> The result of Kaguya's thought is that her power will activate.

/\ Yhwach's power sees THIS coming, and rewrites this line to whatever outcome he desires.

(Aftermath)

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I question how this works. Would the process be automatic, or would Yhwach need to actively think to change the future?

 

[FateAlbane]

Fairly sure I showed you the scans in our chat conversation, Saik. I could explain that again, but If I keep talking about how his powers work here, I'll be doing exactly what I told Cross I'd stop doing. Feel free to ask me in the chat again.

 

[FateAlbane]

Also of note is that Yhwach got seven votes already.

Yhwach: FateAlbane, Cropfist, KillitwithC4, HokageMangaVox, Raito Utopia, Kawaru Shotomata and Scarletmoon56.

Inconclusive or Kaguya: Saikou, possibly CoreOfimBalance (COB)

Didn't give a vote yet: SilverRain, CrossverseCrisis, LobsterFiend

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Prom voted for Kaguya, and considering both Lobster and Andy argues for Kaguya they would probably count.

 

[Promestein]

I'm leaning more towards inconclusive, now (or Kaguya)

 

[FateAlbane]

According to what I got from the rules and SomebodyData, debunked arguments don't count for votes. Promestein's vote came from the assumption that Kaguya had superior Speed when speed is equal. Andy is the OP and the Op can argue, but doesn't vote. Lobster has yet to reply, lest his reasoning for Kaguya's instant is debunked as well.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

So is Crop's reasoning, and some others reasoning also comes from Almighty's, which is debated weather or not it apply.

 

[FateAlbane]

What? I haven't seen any reasoning for the Almighty being debunked here. Just me being questioned and explaining Yhwach's powers at least ten times, not to mention the near NLF we're getting for Kaguya here.

Edit: Indeed, Crop said it was a stomp, which is wrong. But by now, with that much discussion, I particularly wanted to see what Cross view on the matter would be. I'll see if I can find Crop later so that he may provide an acceptable reasoning.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Neither is Kaguya's abilities. They are being debated, not outright debunked.

 

[FateAlbane]

Andy himself eventually admitted that that reasoning was absurd. We have yet to hear from Lobster, who was saying exactly the same thing that would imply infinite speed Kaguya. Core did not give a clear answer after it was said that Kaguya could still be absorbed, nor after the rules where changed.

Unless you debunk what I said about her powers, all these points are pretty much empty.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

I am confused about this so I will not vote for this match. I find this off from a wikia: Eternity is namely immutability, and it can be said that eternity rejects all change. Things that possess eternity indefinitely don't change, and also cannot be interfered by things outside of it. Counting from when Kaguya came to Gensokyo, she has lived hidden away definitely for hundreds of years, but until the eternal night incident, she continued having an existence in the interior of the Bamboo Forest of the Lost without anybody knowing about them. Also, the pure Japanese-style building Eientei can be seen not to have worn out at all, which can be said to (have been) due to this ability of eternity. At least as of now, since for Eientei, the change of "others coming to visit" so to speak, has become an ordinary daily occurrence, it has already become non-eternal.[1]

Incidentally, as the Hourai Elixir made by Kaguya's ability of eternity is something that makes the consumer have a "body that rejects all change", it can't simply be said to be a kind of maximised, self-healing ability (due to this, it's said that a the whole-body can recover from a single hair, as for Fujiwara no Mokou). In the last spell card "End of Imperishable Night" which used this ability, it destroyed Reimu Hakurei and the others' spell of eternity, and forcibly called for dawn (End of Imperishable Night -Rising World-, where "Rising World" was a homophone to "dawn" as "yoake" (Õñ£µÿÄÒüæ)).

With "instantaneous", it's namely the gaps, the instant that's impossible to recognise the existence of anything else. Kaguya, in being able to manipulate the instantaneous, is able to mish-mash the needed "instants" and make them her own time. However, whatever she gathers together, since the fact that they're the "unrecognisable instant" can't be changed, she has no means of knowing what's within the instant. For this reason, in manipulating the instantaneous, Kaguya's able to spend "time the same as others'" and "time different from others'" simultaneously. Hieda no Akyuu presented this as "having parallel timelines at the same time." In the nineteenth chapter of Silent Sinner in Blue, as the instantaneous is the smallest unit of time, time is able to accumulate countless instants. Watatsuki no Toyohime explained that to see time as continuous is due to the inability to recognise the instant.

Since her ability can be said to be the ability to manipulate "complete stop = eternity" and "extreme speed-up = instant", Akyuu also summarised it as an "ability to manipulate time". This seems very similar to Sakuya Izayoi's "ability to manipulating time".

 

[Andykhang]

@Fateoesn't mean I'm not agreeing with my own point though. Just that since there's no instance of her using her other manipulation, I can't actually prove it even if I agree with it.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Kaguya's speed is not infinite but she can makes them be, although considering it's a point of who attacks first here.

The point still being that their ability activates at the very same time + speed equalized. I don't see how you could imply that Yhwach would still attack first in this situation. Both doesn't require contact and just happens. Unless you want to imply that Yhwach can attack in the past somehow.

Although I'm still unsure if "using Almighty" implies he activates it or change the future here.

 

[Andykhang]

^If I remember correctly though, using Almighty == Future manipulation itself, so Almighty is pretty much just a pretty name for it.

 

[FateAlbane]

1. Won't be making a difference when Yhwach can see every possible future and change it before Kaguya activates her own power. What she intends to do will be changed. Even if she thinks "I will activate my power"... See replies above.

2. Hourai Elixir: Everything said about this is what supports her low-godly regen. Read the replies above to see the reasons why that won't save her in this situation.

3. Again, this goes into the territory of how fast the ability itself is, not how fast Kaguya is in activating it. Yhwach will prevent her from using it via Almighty, trough Kaguya's own limitation.

 

[FateAlbane]

You're saying you agree with a point that is clearly absurd in and of itself?

 

[Andykhang]

^Duh.

Also, Almighty isn't the see+alter set though, but rather alter only, then he use it to "see" the future. Kinda like the admin ask to see the history log.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Fate I am so confused here as I will not vote for either characters until things are cleared up on both side.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

What? The whole point is that they activate their powers at the same time. By the very defintion of the Battle Conditions Yhwach cannot Almighty before she uses her attack.

About the absorbtion thing again? Not sure how absortion would relate to getting your soul forcibly sent to hell so I cannot say how it would work here.

 

[FateAlbane]

Although I'm still unsure if "using Almighty" implies he activates it or change the future here.

Yhwach's power won't work at the same time. It will be activated in the same time and work in advance. It will influence precisely what should happen (see reply above). His power doesn't influence the very 0.0 second they're at, it will influence everything that is coming from this point onwards. Kaguya's power will have to come sometime in the future, after she thinks. The problem is Yhwach's power works directly against Kaguya's own activation that is STILL going to happen, sometime in the future.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Yhwach's power won't work at the same time. It will be activated in the same time and work in advance. It will influence precisely what should happen (see reply above). His power doesn't influence the very 0.0 second they're at, it will influence everything that is coming from this point onwards. Kaguya's power will have to come sometime in the future, after she thinks. The problem is Yhwach's power works directly against Kaguya's own activation that is STILL going to happen, sometime in the future.

Hmmmm perhaps so, but I suppose that could be a excellent argument or a assumption. I will be remaining neutral for the time being until then.

 

[FateAlbane]

About the absorbtion thing again? Not sure how absortion would relate to getting your soul forcibly sent to hell so I cannot say how it would work here.

Absorbs the being, strips said being of all their powers and makes them become his own.