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Jujutsu Kaisen revision - Part 1: Speed

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LIFE_OF_KING said:
The MSH+ was rejected, but for now the majority still agrees with hypersonic and above. So mhe
Click to expand...
but maki hypersonic feat should be recalc based on this reason
ShadowWhoWalks said:
I actually argue that both Maki's bullet catch calculations for the manga and anime versions are invalid, which would collapse the entire scale.

While there is a shot of the bullet being very close to Maki's forehead, this appears to be Mai's imagination while the ability is being explained. This is apparent in the actual bullet-catch scene where Maki's arm is stretched forward significantly further than the supposed distance between the bullet and Maki's forehead:
34bb7dab3ad9e40caa5692daa7776c9bdd9b1a2b.gifv


In the manga Maki's head is off-screen even though it is supposedly one (1) cm away from the bullet.
0042-014.png


So the scale is unreliable.

Also, Hanami was absolutely trying to kill people. Though hiding his killing intent was important for s
Click to expand...
 
I have already argued for 2 pages with Shadow in the general discussion. His mind on the subject will not change, just like mine, it is literally a circular argumentation
 
Honestly,

The statement as explained earlier, the statement was about naoya surpassing subsonic speed earlier in the fight, not in the moment. The characters have man feats that surpass subsonic speed. Its clearly a case of feats >>> statements here and the statement should be disregarded. and not only do they have feats but characters like Todo are able to think and perceive at 0.01 speeds, random jobber characters can react and block to sound, Itadori can perceive and react to faster than sound attacks. This statement is clearly just using subsonic to sound cool.

TL;dr
-statement was about Naoya who surpassed subsonic sped earlier
-multitude of feats above subsonic speeds
-random jobber character can react and block to sound attacks and use sound attacks
-Todo able to perceive at 0.01 seconds
-Itadori able to perceive and react faster than sound attacks

-One statement that says subsonic to sound cool which is misrepresented.

kinda disappointing see people use this to downgrade, but oh well.
 
PowerToScale said:
Honestly,

The statement as explained earlier, the statement was about naoya surpassing subsonic speed earlier in the fight, not in the moment. The characters have man feats that surpass subsonic speed. Its clearly a case of feats >>> statements here and the statement should be disregarded. and not only do they have feats but characters like Todo are able to think and perceive at 0.01 speeds, random jobber characters can react and block to sound, Itadori can perceive and react to faster than sound attacks. This statement is clearly just using subsonic to sound cool.

TL;dr
-statement was about Naoya who surpassed subsonic sped earlier
-multitude of feats above subsonic speeds
-random jobber character can react and block to sound attacks and use sound attacks
-Todo able to perceive at 0.01 seconds
-Itadori able to perceive and react faster than sound attacks

-One statement that says subsonic to sound cool which is misrepresented.

kinda disappointing see people use this to downgrade, but oh well.
Click to expand...
oh u mean vs wiki feat calcs? as far as that is concerned it is head canon and in verse statements will take more weight than those calcs, also todo 0.01 perception speed is nothing as i can also perceive a bullet train but i cannot dodge it or react
 
Pain_to12 said:
oh u mean vs wiki feat calcs? as far as that is concerned it is head canon and in verse statements will take more weight than those calcs, also todo 0.01 perception speed is nothing as i can also perceive a bullet train but i cannot dodge it or react
Click to expand...
Cause you aren’t Todo. Also vsb uses calcs as evidence for ones ap and speed. So if a good amount of calcs are in contradiction with a single statement, I can’t see why we wouldn’t disregard the statement. The statement would also mean that people like Inumaki with cursed speech, the Kyoto principle with his guitar and Juzo who reacted to sound, would scale above Naoya in his base or be somewhat relative. We know this is clearly not the case.
 
Pain_to12 said:
oh u mean vs wiki feat calcs? as far as that is concerned it is head canon and in verse statements will take more weight than those calcs, also todo 0.01 perception speed is nothing as i can also perceive a bullet train but i cannot dodge it or react
Click to expand...
Actually it isn't nothing as Naoya can basically FTE Blitz post-Shibuya Yuji

Yuji is superior to Todo at that point so Naoya only being Subsonic would be a contradiction given the timeframe he can move in.
Nelliels said:
Cause you aren’t Todo. Also vsb uses calcs as evidence for ones ap and speed. So if a good amount of calcs are in contradiction with a single statement, I can’t see why we wouldn’t disregard the statement. The statement would also mean that people like Inumaki with cursed speech, the Kyoto principle with his guitar and Juzo who reacted to sound, would scale above Naoya in his base or be somewhat relative. We know this is clearly not the case.
Click to expand...
Inumaki blitzes Naoya with Cursed Speech confirmed.
 
This is a list of all accepted feats. For those who say statements over feats. Statement can be disregarded enough evidence from feats exists.
Accepted Feat list:
Maki blitz Ogi (Hypersonic)
Maki catches bullet (Assuming she is further back than point blank (Supersonic+))
Itadori (Beginning of series) blitz curse (Subsonic+)
Stone hand speed (Hypersonic, assuming 0.08 (benefit of doubt) Supersonic)
Maki catching bullet point blank as she did High Hypersonic+)
Speed of tree appearing (Supersonic)
Speed of jobber people who can't perceive Maki's movements (Subsonic+)
Geto casual speed(Supersonic)
Sukuna (3 fingers and 15 fingers) speed (Supersonic+(3) and Hypersonic+(15)) 3 fingers scales to Shibuya Toji and Megumi (who would scale to other like Itadori and Nobara) as Shibuya Toji was compared to be as fast as this Sukuna (3 fingers) and Megumi kept up with that Toji)

Calcs waiting evaluation:
Itadori dodge PB (Subsonic to Supersonic)

General feats and not calced yet feats:
Itadori perceiving faster than sounds Choso's PB (Chapter 101)
Maki reacting and cutting Maki's bullet in half from only a human and half to slightly less two Mai lengths away) (Chapter 42)
Coat rack dude reactsand blocks sound attack (Chapter 52)
Young Geto blocking bullets (Chapter 73)
Finger bearer(FB) in prison blitzing Itadori and Megumi (megumi and itadori were in the middle of the room so FB travlled room radius before they could perceive (Megumi fights a stronger and faster one later)) (Chapter 6)
Itadori gets blitz by FB who was in the middle of the room (Same room ^) while Itadori was in the middle of the room. (Chapter 7)
Sukuna (two fingers) blitz FB (Same FB blitz Megumi and Itadori, who is Subsonic+ via feats) (Chapter 8)
Itadori punches faster than Grasshopper as its spike is at point blank range (Chapter 87)

People with sound attacks:
Principle of Kyoto (Sound attacks from guitar)
Urahime (Cursed technique involves singing)
Inumaki cursed speech (Speaks)
 
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PowerToScale said:
This is a list of all accepted feats. For those who say statements over feats. Statement can be disregarded enough evidence from feats exists.
Accepted Feat list:
Maki blitz Ogi (Hypersonic)
Maki catches bullet (Assuming she is further back than point blank (Supersonic+))
Itadori (Beginning of series) blitz curse (Subsonic+)
Stone hand speed (Hypersonic, assuming 0.08 (benefit of doubt) Supersonic)
Maki catching bullet point blank as she did High Hypersonic+)
Speed of tree appearing (Supersonic)
Speed of jobber people who can't perceive Maki's movements (Subsonic+)
Geto casual speed(Supersonic)

Calcs waiting evaluation:
Sukuna (3 fingers) speed (Supersonic+ to High Hypersonic+) Scales to Shibuya Toji and Megumi as Shibuya (who would scale to other like Itadori and Nobara) Toji was compared to be as fast as this Sukuna and Megumi kept up with that Toji)

general feats and not calced yet feats:
Itadori perceiving faster than sounds Choso's PB
Maki reacting and cutting Maki's bullet in half from only a human and half to slightly less two Mai lengths away)
Coat rack dude reactsand blocks sound attack
Young Geto blocking bullets
Finger bearer in prison blitzing Itadori and Megumi (Megumi fights a stronger and faster one later)

People with sound attacks:
Principle of Kyoto (Sound attacks from guitar)
Urahime (Cursed technique involves singing)
Inumaki cursed speech (Speaks)
Click to expand...
Another Calc awaiting Eval
Objective Piercing Blood recalc
Mach 0.38 - Mach 1.5
or
Mach 0.82
 
PowerToScale said:
This is a list of all accepted feats. For those who say statements over feats. Statement can be disregarded enough evidence from feats exists.
Accepted Feat list:
Maki blitz Ogi (Hypersonic)
Maki catches bullet (Assuming she is further back than point blank (Supersonic+))
Itadori (Beginning of series) blitz curse (Subsonic+)
Stone hand speed (Hypersonic, assuming 0.08 (benefit of doubt) Supersonic)
Maki catching bullet point blank as she did High Hypersonic+)
Speed of tree appearing (Supersonic)
Speed of jobber people who can't perceive Maki's movements (Subsonic+)
Geto casual speed(Supersonic)

Calcs waiting evaluation:
Sukuna (3 fingers) speed (Supersonic+ to High Hypersonic+) Scales to Shibuya Toji and Megumi as Shibuya (who would scale to other like Itadori and Nobara) Toji was compared to be as fast as this Sukuna and Megumi kept up with that Toji)
Itadori dodge PB (Subsonic to Supersonic)

General feats and not calced yet feats:
Itadori perceiving faster than sounds Choso's PB (Chapter 101)
Maki reacting and cutting Maki's bullet in half from only a human and half to slightly less two Mai lengths away) (Chapter 42)
Coat rack dude reactsand blocks sound attack (Chapter 52)
Young Geto blocking bullets (Chapter 73)
Finger bearer(FB) in prison blitzing Itadori and Megumi (megumi and itadori were in the middle of the room so FB travlled room radius before they could perceive (Megumi fights a stronger and faster one later)) (Chapter 6)
Itadori gets blitz by FB who was in the middle of the room (Same room ^) while Itadori was in the middle of the room. (Chapter 7)
Sukuna (two fingers) blitz FB (Same FB blitz Megumi and Itadori, who is Subsonic+ via feats) (Chapter 8)
Itadori punches faster than Grasshopper as its spike is at point blank range (Chapter 87)

People with sound attacks:
Principle of Kyoto (Sound attacks from guitar)
Urahime (Cursed technique involves singing)
Inumaki cursed speech (Speaks)
Click to expand...
Updated "General feats and not calced yet feats" with more feats and the chapters if anyone wants to calc them.
 
Would like to mention that when Naoya is called the fastest sorcerer Toji isn't included in that list at all. He was never a sorcerer in the first place. I'll try to give this thread a proper read through later to share my points on it, but that's something that should be noted.
 
Duedate8898 said:
Would like to mention that when Naoya is called the fastest sorcerer Toji isn't included in that list at all. He was never a sorcerer in the first place. I'll try to give this thread a proper read through later to share my points on it, but that's something that should be noted.
Click to expand...
SMART! listen to this man! I hope i dont see Naoy>Megumi~Toji
 
I don't really recall at the moment, I just noticed that it was brought up that the statement about Naoya should be dismissed because of Toji and that the idea appeared a few times so I wanted to try and correct that sentiment.
 
What I said is that Toji > Naobito (Speed), if Naoya is faster than Toji, it means that he is faster than Naobito
 
PowerToScale said:
General feats and not calced yet feats:
Itadori perceiving faster than sounds Choso's PB (Chapter 101)
Maki reacting and cutting Maki's bullet in half from only a human and half to slightly less two Mai lengths away) (Chapter 42)
Coat rack dude reactsand blocks sound attack (Chapter 52)
Young Geto blocking bullets (Chapter 73)
Finger bearer(FB) in prison blitzing Itadori and Megumi (megumi and itadori were in the middle of the room so FB travlled room radius before they could perceive (Megumi fights a stronger and faster one later)) (Chapter 6)
Itadori gets blitz by FB who was in the middle of the room (Same room ^) while Itadori was in the middle of the room. (Chapter 7)
Sukuna (two fingers) blitz FB (Same FB blitz Megumi and Itadori, who is Subsonic+ via feats) (Chapter 8)
Itadori punches faster than Grasshopper as its spike is at point blank range (Chapter 87)
Click to expand...
In addition, there is this feat, where a random curse is FTE
This creature of Mahito's is also shown to be faster than FTE, as we readers cannot see the movement, which is normally considered FTE
 
LIFE_OF_KING said:
In addition, there is this feat, where a random curse is FTE
This creature of Mahito's is also shown to be faster than FTE, as we readers cannot see the movement, which is normally considered FTE
Click to expand...
How do you manage to find to bad examples...like I am not saying there are no fte curses but you chose the literal worst examples. Now I am not too sure of the first one but it looks to me and I could be remembering wrong that the curse could just attack from that range using those blades rather than actually just dashing to him and slicing him. And the second one is definitely worse. It is just action in between panels there is no sign of FTE there. There are two panels one were the curse is in front of the dude and another where the curse is biting him(heck you can still see it's hand on his top). I dont know why I have to explain to you why that is not FTE movement. If someone is standing on the left in one panel and then we see them standing on the right in another, is that meant to be FTE movement?
 
The movement is considered FTE because it is impossible for the reader to see the movement of the attacks. Being able to see the creature hand is not helpful, they are different movements. In fact, the movement of the hand is probably just the creature falling, not attacking, since before the subway door opened the creatures were unable to move a muscle, so when the door opened the creatures simply fell on the humans. What I said about FTE is literally a default
 
FTE is no longer rated subsonic on this wiki, the thread was concluded already the changes should be applied soon
 
LIFE_OF_KING said:
The movement is considered FTE because it is impossible for the reader to see the movement of the attacks. Being able to see the creature hand is not helpful, they are different movements. In fact, the movement of the hand is probably just the creature falling, not attacking, since before the subway door opened the creatures were unable to move a muscle, so when the door opened the creatures simply fell on the humans. What I said about FTE is literally a default
Click to expand...
????You are genuinely making less and less sense as you go on. You showed me a picture of two panel one in which we see a creature in front of this dude and another where we see said creature taking a big bite out of his cranium and then you told me that the creature moved FTE to us. That makes 0 sense. This is not an example of a creature moving FTE. This is an example of two panels where we see the before and the after.
 
PowerToScale said:
Honestly,

The statement as explained earlier, the statement was about naoya surpassing subsonic speed earlier in the fight, not in the moment. The characters have man feats that surpass subsonic speed. Its clearly a case of feats >>> statements here and the statement should be disregarded. and not only do they have feats but characters like Todo are able to think and perceive at 0.01 speeds, random jobber characters can react and block to sound, Itadori can perceive and react to faster than sound attacks. This statement is clearly just using subsonic to sound cool.

TL;dr
-statement was about Naoya who surpassed subsonic sped earlier
-multitude of feats above subsonic speeds
-random jobber character can react and block to sound attacks and use sound attacks
-Todo able to perceive at 0.01 seconds
-Itadori able to perceive and react faster than sound attacks

-One statement that says subsonic to sound cool which is misrepresented.

kinda disappointing see people use this to downgrade, but oh well.
Click to expand...
The statement that got cited is Maki being in trouble because Naoya surpassed subsonic speed. Arguing whether subsonic speed was surpassed in that panel or a couple of panels before is not relevant to the point. Furthermore the ability itself gives us plenty of subsonic anti-feats we can easily calc.

I disagree that there are 'many' feats surpassing subsonic speed. I'd say there is a lack of solid feats which can't supresede the anti-feats.

-statement was about Naoya who surpassed subsonic sped earlier
Click to expand...
Saying that one of the fastest characters in the entire verse managed to surpass subsonic speed with effort and amps is not an invitation to upgrade the entire verse.

-random jobber character can react and block to sound attacks and use sound attacks
Click to expand...
Not persuasive; it is not like the character dodged the attack; he just tanked/blocked it when it was visibly launched a cosiderable distance away. Yoshinobu appeared to stall Juzo and keep him at a distance the entire fight.
You are better off arguing about Geto reacting to a bullet.

-Todo able to perceive at 0.01 seconds
Click to expand...
That is subsonic perception.

-Itadori able to perceive and react faster than sound attacks
Click to expand...
Piercing Blood is specifically too fast for Yuji to dodge, even though it was launched from a considerable distance away, and Yuji needs to guess whether he should dodge left or right knowing that he'll get hit if he guesses wrong.

Going through the list:

PowerToScale said:
Maki blitz Ogi (Hypersonic)
Click to expand...
I'd say this is the only solid feat, though a subsonic low-end is possible and the feat by itself can't couter all the anti-feats.

PowerToScale said:
Maki catches bullet (Assuming she is further back than point blank (Supersonic+))
Click to expand...
It was generally agreed that Maki Mai was most likely using a rubber bullet just like she did moments before, as she'll get in trouble if she uses real bullets against someone other than Yuji.

PowerToScale said:
Stone hand speed (Hypersonic, assuming 0.08 (benefit of doubt) Supersonic)
Click to expand...
Extremely questionable even with the 'benefit of doubt'.
Maki reacts to the stone hands and dodges -> stone hand user reacts to Maki's reaction and makes the stone hand follow Maki while she is mid-air and unable to dodge -> Calculate the final length of the stone hand and assume that it finished fully expanding before someone can react.

PowerToScale said:
Maki catching bullet point blank as she did High Hypersonic+)
Click to expand...
Already explained why the feat is extremely questionable.

PowerToScale said:
Speed of tree appearing (Supersonic)
Click to expand...
Questionable as it is 'counting the frames' of a still-image with special effects (like shaking and zooming out). It is better off to assume that the tree appeared in the blink of an eye, which still allows subsonic speed.

PowerToScale said:
Speed of jobber people who can't perceive Maki's movements (Subsonic+)
Click to expand...
Uses a high end perception for the audience (maximum recorded human perception in a study, which acknowledges that the results are influenced by the participants practicing), when it is possible for human perception to be much lower when they are not concentrating/skilled.

PowerToScale said:
Geto casual speed(Supersonic)
Click to expand...
The context is wrong though. They notice Geto before he started speaking.
 
Last edited:
Rocker1189 said:
????You are genuinely making less and less sense as you go on. You showed me a picture of two panel one in which we see a creature in front of this dude and another where we see said creature taking a big bite out of his cranium and then you told me that the creature moved FTE to us. That makes 0 sense. This is not an example of a creature moving FTE. This is an example of two panels where we see the before and the after.
Click to expand...
I really want to understand your point here. Are you assuming that one frame to the next has a small timeskip even though nothing indicates this?
 
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