Jujutsu Kaisen revision - Part 1: Speed

[LIFE_OF_KING]

More importantly we can calculate the distance between frames (i.e. the distance is not as unknown as you claim). For example in these three instances:

And we don't know if that is the limiting distance. If the characters (Itadori and Choso for exemple, characters that are much slower than Naoya and Naobito) are supersonic, hypersonic, MSH, MHS+ or even Subsonic, it shows that 10 meters is not a limited distance. The point will only be useful if the high hypersonic and massively hypersonic feats or above are discarded, if this does not happen the 1/24 is not an anti-feat, but only a cursed technique that increases speed in a simple interpretation.

The user cannot vary the timeframe

Naoya's speed is 100% based on the cursed technique. If he can increase the speed means that he can change the timeframe, since time is the necessary thing for speed. But nothing indicates that the time limit is 1/24 seconds, or if Naoya was using more than 1/24 seconds against Choso and Itadori, it is really undeniably vague. The technique has been explored, but is still vague for calculation patterns and powerscale

While there is a shot of the bullet being very close to Maki's forehead, this appears to be Mai's imagination while the ability is being explained. This is apparent in the actual bullet-catch scene where Maki's arm is stretched forward significantly further than the supposed distance between the bullet and Maki's forehead:

Or Maki just moved her arm forward when she caught the rubber bullet, or even a inconsistency in the art. It wouldn't make sense to be Mai's imagination, if it was imagination and thoughts, she would have imagined when she and Maki were children (Since at the moment she was thinking more about sisterhood relations than the fight itself). Also, it makes no sense to assume that Mai would imagine the bullet getting close to Maki, but would not imagine it hitting her. That really seems a bit biased man

Also, Hanami was absolutely trying to kill people

No intent to kill = Want to kill?

if the Cursed Buds took more than 0.01 seconds to reach Aoi, then this means that Hanami's projectiles that apparently neither Yuji nor Aoi can dodge are subsonic.

We assume an extremely low speed X for character Y to make a Low-End of he attacking character W. You can take as an example a character that has attacks considered transonic, but for a calculation is assumed to move at 12 meters per second. Or even for a calculation of yours, where you assume that a character only perceives (1/220) seconds, even though the demon is obviously faster than sound; If you are going to use this logic, then you have a lot of verses to debunk honestly.

While it is confirmed that Aoi made the decision to shut down his reinforcement within 0.01 seconds, he is known to create delusional memories. I don't see how this scales to his perception, let alone reaction speed since there is zero physical movement.

He can react and think in the time of the imagination, and even use the decision he thought of at the exact moment the imagination is finished. Also, he can communicate within his thoughts, so he is able to react; I see no problem here

Gojo tanked the explosion of the Ember Insects, not dodged it. So I don't see how a calc about him dodging the explosions is in anyway valid.

When Jogo's fire hits Gojo the infinite gets signs of fire. This does not happen in the scene, so he simply dodges it. And if Gojo wanted to took the attack he would not have jumped

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Btw, don't forget that there are random characters that use sound as an attack

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

And we don't know if that is the limiting distance. If the characters (Itadori and Choso for exemple, characters that are much slower than Naoya and Naobito) are supersonic, hypersonic, MSH, MHS+ or even Subsonic, it shows that 10 meters is not a limited distance. The point will only be useful if the high hypersonic and massively hypersonic feats or above are discarded, if this does not happen the 1/24 is not an anti-feat, but only a cursed technique that increases speed in a simple interpretation.

That 'limited' distance is enough to blitz people, hence anti-feat.
Saying that this character is calculated at such speed, therefore we need to assume that a massively larger distance is somehow travelled sounds like calc stacking.

We can calculate the distance, and we have a timeframe. It is as simple as you get.

Naoya's speed is 100% based on the cursed technique. If he can increase the speed means that he can change the timeframe, since time is the necessary thing for speed. But nothing indicates that the time limit is 1/24 seconds, or if Naoya was using more than 1/24 seconds against Choso and Itadori, it is really undeniably vague. The technique has been explored, but is still vague for calculation patterns and powerscale

Even Maki at the end of the fight, when Naoya is using the Technique to its maximum limit (thus surpassing subsonic speed... scary and bad news for Maki), says that Naoya moves at 24 frames per second.

The ability has been explained multiple times so it should be clear.

Maybe if Naoya is resurrected as a Cursed Spirit he'll upgrade his technique to 60 frames per second .

Or Maki just moved her arm forward when she caught the rubber bullet, or even a inconsistency in the art. It wouldn't make sense to be Mai's imagination, if it was imagination and thoughts she would have imagined when she and Maki were children (Since at the moment she was thinking more about sisterhood relations than the fight itself). Also, it makes no sense to assume that Mai would imagine the bullet getting close to Maki, but would not imagine it hitting her. That really seems a bit biased man

We see her hand stretching out to catch the bullet, so there is no room to argue that she caught the bullet differently and then moved her arm forward off-screen.
The bullet catch scene is too important to dismiss as an art inconsistency. Mai's was having an exposition monologue about how her ability works, so her predicting what would happen is consistent with what she would imagine.

No intent to kill = Want to kill?

It is not uncommon for stealthy characters to be able to suppress their killing intent while attempting to kill people.

We assume an extremely low speed X for character Y to make a Low-End of he attacking character W. You can take as an example a character that has attacks considered transonic, but for a calculation is assumed to move at 12 meters per second. Or even for a calculation of yours, where you assume that a character only perceives (1/220) seconds, even though the demon is obviously faster than sound; If you are going to use this logic, then you have a lot of verses to debunk honestly.

We have an explicit timeframe (0.01 s) for Aoi's situation though, so we don't need to assume anything on that regard. You are pretty much saying that we should ignore the 0.01 s statement here (the time the buds took to reach Aoi) and use it there (how much time it took for Aoi to decide to shut down his reinforcement).

He can react and think in the time of the imagination, and even use the decision he thought of at the exact moment the imagination is finished. Also, he can communicate within his thoughts, so he is able to react; I see no problem here

Reaction speed requires movement per the wiki's definition.

Reaction speed is defined as a single movement in a defined timeframe, which a character has been shown capable of.

Unless you are arguing that Todo can walk around a class room within 0.01 second, then this is not reaction speed. The most you can argue for is perception speed, which is questionable since the delusion happened inside his mind.

When Jogo's fire hits Gojo the infinite gets signs of fire. This does not happen in the scene, so he simply dodges it. And if Gojo wanted to took the attack he would not have jumped

Gojo casually dismissed the flame and soot from his barrier, so we shouldn't expect any semi-permanent marking from an explosion. The anime explicitly has him jumping away from the smoke after tanking the attack; I don't see where the problem is.

 

[Arkenis]

characters

if they have no intent to kill then they dont want to kill. And in Hanami's case we see he held back against them for a reason.

 

[Arkenis]

So we are ignoring the maki feat completely and now we're staying on the Naoya thing...
This isn't gonna go far if we can't agree on Naoya's ability. I feel like @LIFE_OF_KING is making good points but this seems pretty absurd to go with the high tiers just now breaking subsonic speeds.

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

My issue personally with the 1/24 being 1/24
Is that

Wouldn’t it make Todo’s perception an outlier even if we only took it as 0.01s
Since 1/24 is 0.042 seconds
Aka decently longer yet people are gettting blitzed in that timeframe.
And 0.042 seconds is like Superhuman reactions while 0.01 is subsonic perception.
So the 1/24 ain’t looking consistent with the subsonic claim to me.

 

[Rocker1189]

Wouldn’t it make Todo’s perception an outlier even if we only took it as 0.01s

yeah it would which is why Todo's perception feat is not a feat in the first place. That would be like giving Itachi MFTL+ perception because he created a genjutsu where someone lived their full life and died in a billionth of a second except it is an actual feat.

 

[PowerToScale]

In the scan it says Naoya had already "surpassed subsonic speeds" as hes about to go top speed. Meaning earlier in his fight he had surpassed subsonic speeds not in the moment of the statement, basically going "all out >> earlier speeds >> subsonic speeds"

I also thing LIFE_OF_KING is argument makes more sense.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

That would be like giving Itachi MFTL+ perception because he created a genjutsu where someone lived their full life and died in a billionth of a second except it is an actual feat.

But that is a techinique. What Todo did was just a feat without any outside help.

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

But that is a techinique. What Todo did was just a feat without any outside help.

Yeah he was just thinking
It’s how how fast he can make a decision which imo counts for perception.

 

[Arkenis]

Feel like it directly ties into reaction as well. Fighters decide on how they wanna counter, block, what angle to jump, punch and kick. So his thought process should somewhat correlate

 

[FrenchStephy]

The correct sentence is the one I used

That's not true. "その先で爆ぜる1/1000000の火花" = "Beyond that the one millioneth of a spark ignites" which is very close to the (official) one I linked.

This was never said. If the damage was relevant to anything in the fight it would obviously have a picture showing this.

But it is said tho (by the narrator on the Shiranui-gata page)

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

But it is said tho (by the narrator on the Shiranui-gata page)

This is what happens when you go 1 month without reading Jujutsu

Anyway, it makes sense. Although apparently the MSH+ reaction was rejected, then not much will change

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Why do we use the anime timeframe again? Is it because the scenes look similar across both versions, or is it because Gege said he reviews the storyboards?

oh, that reminds me

 

[USklaverei]

The statements are pretty consistent, Itadori had a lot of trouble avoiding Piercing Blood, he even had to make Choso shoot where he wanted to, with the statement about Naoya then...

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

oh, that reminds me

both

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

The statements are pretty consistent, Itadori had a lot of trouble avoiding Piercing Blood, he even had to make Choso shoot where he wanted to, with the statement about Naoya then...

We're going with Zoro 9-C because he said he can't cut steel, which is consistent with the fight against Mr.1

 

[Arkenis]

So subsonic high tiers and maybe supersonic god tiers? hopefully the hax revision is more interesting

 

[USklaverei]

why are you wrapping other verses in a Jjk review?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

both

Oh wow! That makes total sense!
Except, I don't know how the timeframes are suddenly valid because Gege reviews the storyboards. Last time I checked, storyboards serve as a reference point for choreography, and are not 1:1 with the final product or its timeframes.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Because it is the same logic

 

[USklaverei]

If you think it is, open a thread to demote, no need to cry here

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Oh wow! That makes total sense!
Except, I don't know how the timeframes are suddenly valid because Gege reviews the storyboards. Last time I checked, storyboards serve as a reference point for choreography, and are not 1:1 with the final product or its timeframes.

She checks the choreography, to evaluate and be consistent with the manga or even better. We use anime as a reference when the scene is confusing in many cases, I don't see why it is different here

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Itadori had a lot of trouble avoiding Piercing Blood, he even had to make Choso shoot where he wanted to,

That reminds me
Gotta recalc that piercing blood dodge from Yuji

 

[Rocker1189]

But that is a techinique. What Todo did was just a feat without any outside help.

That is a technique in which he controls everything in it. It is even better than Todo's where he is just having a made up memory.

 

[Arkenis]

That reminds me
Gotta recalc that piercing blood dodge from Yuji

yuji gets hit by it on the cheek or nose iirc. I doubt it’s worth a recalc.

 

[Arkenis]

Also honestly recalcing that and getting a speed less than what’s being pushed for with Naoya is just gonna make Naoya look shit for being scared by it .

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

yuji gets hit by it on the cheek or nose iirc. I doubt it’s worth a recalc.

All it means is that it’s his max reaction speed or he’d be slightly below whatever results the Calc will get

 

[Nullflowerblush]

She checks the choreography, to evaluate and be consistent with the manga or even better. We use anime as a reference when the scene is confusing in many cases, I don't see why it is different here

Except the manga version isn't confusing, and the anime version inflates the results from Supersonic+ to High Hypersonic+.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

In the anime we can figure out the distance of the bullet accurately. In the manga on the other hand we just calculate distance X between Maki and the bullet, and define that the timeframe is equal to the speed of the bullet divided by the distance between the two. The anime helps with the precision

 

[Nullflowerblush]

we just calculate distance X between Maki and the bullet

is that not what you are supposed to?

 

[Cropfist]

Why do we use the anime timeframe again? Is it because the scenes look similar across both versions, or is it because Gege said he reviews the storyboards?

Anime timeframes are acceptable by general rules.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

is that not what you are supposed to?

I mean, we originally assumed that the timeframe is equal to the distance between the bullet and Maki's forehead, so we assumed that she caught the bullet at the exact moment It touched her, which is not technically correct, it's just a common Low-End on the site, but contextually it's wrong

EDIT: I'm leaving now. I'll be back in about 5 to 6 hours.

 

[KingTempest]

We're going with Zoro 9-C because he said he can't cut steel, which is consistent with the fight against Mr.1

Shhhhh chill out

Someone gimme a tldr

 

[Arkenis]

Shhhhh chill out

Someone gimme a tldr

Yea basically the arguments we're going over are Todo's weird imaginary pop star girl during the hanami fight as a means to scale reaction and perception and thought process. And we're on Naoya's infamous subsonic statement and if it lowers and discredits the characters scaling to anything above hhs pretty much.

 

[Nierre]

following

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Someone gimme a tldr

.

.

.

These comments sum it all up.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Shhhhh chill out

Someone gimme a tldr

THE OP and then arguments against
basically no one agrees with OP reasons for MHS+, then other arguments against the OP

Toji wasn't weakened, Dagon is talking about Megumi's Domain Expansion. Also Naobito only had trouble with Dagon because of the endless flow of shikigami with guaranteed-hit blocking his vision, which allowed Dagon to hit him.

Maki was weakened due to blood loss against Ougi and her fight against the Hei. Naoya also tried to take advantage of the 1 frame stun forced on her by Projection Sorcery.
So saying that Naoya is faster than Toji, Gojo or even Naobito is wrong.

I think he is just shocked because he just used it for the first time + the whole stuff about gaining a new understanding of the essence of his cursed energy post-Black Flash.

I.. don't see what makes Piercing Blood MSH+ (but maybe I'm just dumb lmao)

And about the "and she reached that spark of 1/1000000" line, the official translation is more accurate with what the narrator says in the raw (her extreme focus ignites the millionth of a spark). Don't really see anything about her reacting to the Black Flash. So yeah disagree with the Black Flash/MSH+ stuff FRA.

I disagree with Black Flash scaling as stated above.

Or you know, you can just use this official statement that says Naoya surpassed subsonic speed with the Projection Sorcery which makes him very dangerous and faster than Maki.

So, uh, she gets to be 30830 m/s for catching a 60 m/s bullet? Cool.

Didn't I explicitly say tha general discussions are not CRTs? Sorry but having a "conclusion" there counts towards nothing. I explicitly said this in the general discussion thread.

I'll comment on the points, and I have some major disagreements.

Spoiler: Black Flash

There was a CRT to reject Black Flash as a speed feat previously, though it wasn't evaluated by staff. So it isn't that the Black Flash has been accepted, it is more that the profiles had little to no update or revision by a CRT.

If I understand correctly, if you apply Cursed Energy within 0.000001 seconds, a distortion is created. Though nothing says that the distortion itself is only visible for 0.000001 seconds. So being able to see black sparks and such isn't really a perception or attack speed feat.

A stronger argument is that Black Flash is more likely to happen with concentration/skill, and that Yuji at one point learned to do it at will, so it can be applicable for perception speed (though probably not reaction speed since physical movement is not required). Though it appears to be something upnormal/instinctive, and not something casually done.

Don't see how the explicit statement that Gojo > Naobito (while healthy and using his technique) in speed is invalid. We can say that an injured Naobito is slower than Toji, but a healthy Naobito is faster than Toji. It is stated that Naobito's speed was reduced due to injury (missing his right arm), which allowed Jogo to tag him:

Domain Expansions has a guaranteed hit effect, and Dagon's version has the fish and their bite teleported onto you, so you need to block the attack since dodging is useless. Don't see how this is somehow an anti-feat for Naobito's speed. When Toji fought Dagon, Megumi cancelled out Dagon's guaranteed hit since both him and Dagon were in a Domain Expansion clash. In fact Dagon will properly beats Toji with Domain Expansion, unless Toji had a tool that protects him from the guaranteed hits.

I don't see how Projection Sorcery and Piercing Blood scales since at most Black Flash is based on irregular enhanced perception.

Spoiler: Projection Sorcery

The explanation about Projection Sorcery is nice and all, but if you are claiming that it is MHS+, then this requires a movement of +14 km per frame. Needless to say, there are too many obstacles and too little space to project frames that absurdly apart.

More importantly we can calculate the distance between frames (i.e. the distance is not as unknown as you claim). For example in these three instances:

This ability is not vague, and it is is a big can of subsonic anti-feats, and an obstacle for speed upgrades.

The user cannot vary the timeframe; it is 24 movements each occurring within 1/24 s till the very end (Otherwise Maki's deduction about how his ability works at the end is wrong). It is explained that the user can gradually increase the acceleration between frames, meaning that he increases the distance between frames, and this is what Naoya meant by upping his speed.

Spoiler: High Hypersonic+ scale

I actually argue that both Maki's bullet catch calculations for the manga and anime versions are invalid, which would collapse the entire scale.

While there is a shot of the bullet being very close to Maki's forehead, this appears to be Mai's imagination while the ability is being explained. This is apparent in the actual bullet-catch scene where Maki's arm is stretched forward significantly further than the supposed distance between the bullet and Maki's forehead:

In the manga Maki's head is off-screen even though it is supposedly one (1) cm away from the bullet.

So the scale is unreliable.

Also, Hanami was absolutely trying to kill people. Though hiding his killing intent was important for stealth.

Spoiler: Mid-Tier scale

First of all, if the Cursed Buds took more than 0.01 seconds to reach Aoi, then this means that Hanami's projectiles that apparently neither Yuji nor Aoi can dodge are subsonic.

While it is confirmed that Aoi made the decision to shut down his reinforcement within 0.01 seconds, he is known to create delusional memories. I don't see how this scales to his perception, let alone reaction speed since there is zero physical movement.

Gojo tanked the explosion of the Ember Insects, not dodged it. So I don't see how a calc about him dodging the explosions is in anyway valid.

Simple Thing​

A minor point that doesn't warrant debate, but the scene plays a bit differently in the manga in a manner that contradicts the anime, but it is more vague in the manga.

This man/lady point is solid actually and i agree with it (just my personal opinion tho)

Btw, don't forget that there are random characters that use sound as an attack

That 'limited' distance is enough to blitz people, hence anti-feat.
Saying that this character is calculated at such speed, therefore we need to assume that a massively larger distance is somehow travelled sounds like calc stacking.

We can calculate the distance, and we have a timeframe. It is as simple as you get.


Even Maki at the end of the fight, when Naoya is using the Technique to its maximum limit (thus surpassing subsonic speed... scary and bad news for Maki), says that Naoya moves at 24 frames per second.

The ability has been explained multiple times so it should be clear.

Maybe if Naoya is resurrected as a Cursed Spirit he'll upgrade his technique to 60 frames per second .


We see her hand stretching out to catch the bullet, so there is no room to argue that she caught the bullet differently and then moved her arm forward off-screen.
The bullet catch scene is too important to dismiss as an art inconsistency. Mai's was having an exposition monologue about how her ability works, so her predicting what would happen is consistent with what she would imagine.


It is not uncommon for stealthy characters to be able to suppress their killing intent while attempting to kill people.


We have an explicit timeframe (0.01 s) for Aoi's situation though, so we don't need to assume anything on that regard. You are pretty much saying that we should ignore the 0.01 s statement here (the time the buds took to reach Aoi) and use it there (how much time it took for Aoi to decide to shut down his reinforcement).


Reaction speed requires movement per the wiki's definition.

Reaction speed is defined as a single movement in a defined timeframe, which a character has been shown capable of.

Unless you are arguing that Todo can walk around a class room within 0.01 second, then this is not reaction speed. The most you can argue for is perception speed, which is questionable since the delusion happened inside his mind.


Gojo casually dismissed the flame and soot from his barrier, so we shouldn't expect any semi-permanent marking from an explosion. The anime explicitly has him jumping away from the smoke after tanking the attack; I don't see where the problem is.

So we are ignoring the maki feat completely and now we're staying on the Naoya thing...
This isn't gonna go far if we can't agree on Naoya's ability. I feel like @LIFE_OF_KING is making good points but this seems pretty absurd to go with the high tiers just now breaking subsonic speeds.

yeah it would which is why Todo's perception feat is not a feat in the first place. That would be like giving Itachi MFTL+ perception because he created a genjutsu where someone lived their full life and died in a billionth of a second except it is an actual feat.

That's not true. "その先で爆ぜる1/1000000の火花" = "Beyond that the one millioneth of a spark ignites" which is very close to the (official) one I linked.

But it is said tho (by the narrator on the Shiranui-gata page)

THE OP CAME STRONG BUT OPPOSITIONS ARE TOUGH

 

[Arkenis]

It’s not looking good for jjk speed rn . Cant we all just agree on god tiers being supersonic like gojo and sukuna and getou and yuuta? Then high and mid tiers just **** around in subsonic? Like it’s a shit compromise but I really can’t see us coming to agree on mhs+ or hhs

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

The MSH+ was rejected, but for now the majority still agrees with hypersonic and above. So mhe