-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Jujutsu Kaisen revision - Part 1: Speed
- Thread starter LIFE_OF_KING
- Start date
-
- Tags
- jujutsu kaisen sua mãe
- Status
- 2,336
- 1,442
I don't think Therefir understood my calc correctly, as both calcs assume she reacts to the bullet just inches away from impacting her face, and my calc does not assume she started moving her hand the moment the bullet was fired. So no valid reason was provided to prefer one calc over an other.
The design of the calc does not address any of the issues the previously accepted calc was rejected for in this thread.
Do we all agree that:
The design of the calc does not address any of the issues the previously accepted calc was rejected for in this thread.
Do we all agree that:
- Maki successfully moved her head away from the trajectory of the bullet before the panel where she clasps her hand on the bullet
- It is possible Maki's head and arm moved at different speeds and distances (even if they started moving at the same time)
- 2,338
- 1,833
@LIFE_OF_KING would you be willing to apply the new calc rating to the relevant profiles?
- 2,336
- 1,442
Application is better left when we figured out the scaling which we have yet to do, unless we are going to give everyone the same speed.
So @Dr._whiteee does your calc work on those assumptions?
So @Dr._whiteee does your calc work on those assumptions?
- Maki successfully moved her head away from the trajectory of the bullet before the panel where she clasps her hand on the bullet
- It is possible Maki's head and arm moved at different speeds and distances (even if they started moving at the same time)
- 4,432
- 4,481
I feel like this feat is being overcomplicated but what exactly does your calc assume vs whites?
- 2,336
- 1,442
The timeframe should only apply to her head moving away from the bullet.
Afterwards there is no need for her hand to catch the bullet before it travels 4.7 cm. she could catch it after the bullet travels 10 cm or 15 cm for example with no issue.
Dr. White assumes that Maki moved her head away, and then uses the timeframe it would've taken the bullet to hit Maki's head if it stood still to calculate the speed of Maki's arm catching the bullet.
My calc was based on a proposal to solve the discrepancy (Maki's head being much further than the bullet when she caught it) by having Maki bend backwards while catching the bullet. Though a simpler proposal would be to simply have Maki's head move to the side.
Afterwards there is no need for her hand to catch the bullet before it travels 4.7 cm. she could catch it after the bullet travels 10 cm or 15 cm for example with no issue.
Dr. White assumes that Maki moved her head away, and then uses the timeframe it would've taken the bullet to hit Maki's head if it stood still to calculate the speed of Maki's arm catching the bullet.
My calc was based on a proposal to solve the discrepancy (Maki's head being much further than the bullet when she caught it) by having Maki bend backwards while catching the bullet. Though a simpler proposal would be to simply have Maki's head move to the side.
Last edited:
- 4,432
- 4,481
Hmm, the way Maki is posed when she catches the bullet though doesn't really point to her ever leaning back. Not to mention she was actually running towards Mai before the bullet was shot and seems to still be mid step by the time she catches the bullet. There isn't really time for Maki to haved leaned back a meaningful degree by the looks of it. And since her arm has to come out in front of her, I feel like it makes more sense to place the bullet where White's calc points to instead of where yours does.
- 2,427
- 1,158
If we got really technical, the body/head movement would take place after the arm, but that's beside the point. The arm movement and the body/head movement did travel different distances, however, they are not separate movements, the movement of body/head are a result of her momentum moving them. Maki isn't moving as in "Moves her arm and moves her body", its "Its moves her arm, which causes the body/head to move". Any example would be stretching your arm forward "You stretching your arms causes your body/torso to turn". I mean, if its bullet catching or just simple everyday movements, different speeds.
The 220 was based off the arguments made by Dr._whiteee, if there is a better reason to use the 73-120 range in your example, I would like to hear it.Why 220 m/s specifically when we can cherrypick all sort of speeds from cartridges that wouldn't fit into a Colt Python?
- 2,427
- 1,158
As explained earlier, her head movement isn't consciously moving her head, its the shift of momentum that her arm moving a to catch the bullet at great speeds, cause her to shift her body/head to the side. Using the same example "stretching your arm forward", stretching it forward, causes the body/torso to shift/turn as a result, not out of complete conscious effort, stretching your arm out faster or hard will cause the turn to bigger and faster, because of the momentum. That's what is happening with Maki.
Dr._Whiteee's calc takes into account the feat for what it is, Maki catching the bullet as it is inches away from her face. The body/head movement is inconsequential to the calc, as it has no bearing. Its merely a by product of Maki's shift of momentum of moving to catch the bullet at high speeds.
Theendzero13
He/Him- 2,786
- 1,328
There are other feats of maki dodging/blocking bullets above, can you please calc those as well , so maybe we get some support evidence?
- 4,432
- 4,481
I do think it does make more sense to use a normal bullet for the gun's speed, since the bullet we're shown that Mai shoots doesn't look like a rubber one. And due to Maki's unique nature in the Jujutsu World, Mai has less reason to use a rubber to try and hit her sister than she would anyone else. It's not as big for her as it is for most other sorcerers.
Theendzero13
He/Him- 2,786
- 1,328
Adding to that the whole bullet shot thing happened while mai was having a monologue on how she hates maki, homever the databooks do claim mai used rubber bullets against the students because otherwise she would get in trouble, homever that can aply only to her regular bullets not the jujutsu made one, so is very ifft ether or not that was a rubber bullet
- 2,427
- 1,158
I feel based on what is currently known, it is best to use rubber bullet speeds.
Theendzero13
He/Him- 2,786
- 1,328
It is saffer i guess
- 4,432
- 4,481
I think more proof for that bullet being a real one is the damage suffered by both Nobaru and Maki from the two separate bullets. Nobaru shows no sign of bleeding or anything of that nature from a surpise shot to her head, however Maki's hand is shown bleeding after catching the bullet. It really does seem like Mai used a real bullet against Maki.
However, if people still think we should go with a rubber I'll concede. Do we have a speed for rubber bullets fired from the revolver we see or a gun comparable to it?
However, if people still think we should go with a rubber I'll concede. Do we have a speed for rubber bullets fired from the revolver we see or a gun comparable to it?
- 2,338
- 1,833
I was under the impression that the forum had come together and ruled the instance to be a rubber bullet.
Because when I first read the chapter it seemed pretty blatant she wanted to kill her sister and did indeed create a real bullet.
- 2,338
- 1,833
Pretty sure most agree with 220m/s given the justification outlined in my blog which has gotten two mod agreements barring you changing your mind.
Theendzero13
He/Him- 2,786
- 1,328
Can you calc the other instances maki catched bullets though, it may serve as supporting evidence
- 2,338
- 1,833
I don't calc (speed feats at least) lol. I can't imagine they wouldn't be in the same range or better though so may not need to be calced unless trying to squeeze everything from them.
Theendzero13
He/Him- 2,786
- 1,328
- 2,336
- 1,442
Even Dr. White and PowerToScale previously stated that Maki moved her head to the side.
Maki's head was no longer close to the bullet nearly to the same extent (19.7 cm of empty space from the bullet to the right side of the panel); assuming continuity and that the bullet moved in a straight line this means that Maki's head moved away.
Update the calc to use the head for movement as a second method:
Jujutsu Kaisen: Mai's Bullet Catch - Super Hyper Enhanced Ultra Cursed Edition
vsbattles.fandom.com
| Height from bullet to top of head: (1.7 x 73)/(963) = 0.12887 m Width of half of Maki's head: (1.7 x 42)/(963) = 0.074143 m Timeframe: 0.047/60 = 0.00078333 s Moving head down speed: 0.12887/0.00078333 = 164.52 m/s [Subsonic] Moving head to the side speed: 0.074143/0.00078333 = 94.651 m/s [Subsonic] |
So why not use the head's movement to get the speed of her body/head?
Maki needs to move her head away before the bullet travels 4.7 cm.
She doesn't need to finish catching the bullet before it travels 4.7 cm.
She was previously shooting with rubber bullets just fine, and from Momo's reaction using regular bullets on humans is a no-no, and Mai isn't the type to go against authority.
- 4,432
- 4,481
I'm not saying Mai was trying to kill Maki. More that Maki is tougher than most others but Todo and Yuji (who she tried to shoot earlier with real bullets so its not like Mai wouldn't have them on her) so rubber bullets are unlikely to be much of a threat like they would be for the others. What more, we're shown a clear difference in the actual danger of these bullets by how Maki's hand is hurt by just catching Mai's while Nobara gets headshotted with no sign of blood and is just knocked out.
That is a clear indication that the bullets in this situations are not the same. Not to mention the bullet we see doesn't like a rubber bullet from what I can find so we have even more reason to believe its a real one.
- 2,427
- 1,158
The answer is already in my statement. Because the body/head movement is inconsequential. Her head movement isn't intentionally moving her head; it's the shift in momentum caused by her arm moving at high speeds to catch the bullet, which causes her body/head to shift to the side. Furthermore the feat is highlighted as her catching the bullet.
Just because Maki needs to move 4cm doesn't mean she does. It doesn't matter how far she needs to move, only how far she DOES move, which we can see is greater.
Firstly, The calc focuses on the head movement, which is wrong. As I've stated, The movement of the body and head is minimal. Her head movement is produced by a change of momentum induced by her arm moving at high speeds to catch the bullet, which causes her body and head to shift to the side. Her catching the bullet is also cited in the manga as the feat, not the head movement.Even Dr. White and PowerToScale previously stated that Maki moved her head to the side.
Maki's head was no longer close to the bullet nearly to the same extent (19.7 cm of empty space from the bullet to the right side of the panel); assuming continuity and that the bullet moved in a straight line this means that Maki's head moved away.
Update the calc to use the head for movement as a second method:
Jujutsu Kaisen: Mai's Bullet Catch - Super Hyper Enhanced Ultra Cursed Edition
Height from bullet to top of head: (1.7 x 73)/(963) = 0.12887 m
Width of half of Maki's head: (1.7 x 42)/(963) = 0.074143 m
Timeframe: 0.047/60 = 0.00078333 s
Moving head down speed: 0.12887/0.00078333 = 164.52 m/s [Subsonic]
Moving head to the side speed: 0.074143/0.00078333 = 94.651 m/s [Subsonic]
Secondly, assuming the head movement is accepted, properly calc it by using what is shown, not your own bare minimum assumption, to downplay the feat. Assuming Maki only moved half her face width, when we have visual evidence of her moving far greater.
@Therefir
Theendzero13
He/Him- 2,786
- 1,328
Bump
- 167,669
- 76,245
- 2,338
- 1,833
The rubber bullet end is fine, I think me and duedate are waiting to see what therefor feels about real bullet speed.
- 9,629
- 8,663
I actually think using a real bullet should be fine, her hand is bleeding and the injuries caused by rubber bullets are different (don't look at it), not to mention that rubber bullets are usually way bigger than that.
- 2,338
- 1,833
I have updated the blog using real bullet speed and got hypersonic results.
- 2,336
- 1,442
How do we quantify the shape of injury from catching a bullet, and what role does the material play?
Just moments ago she was using rubber bullets of equal size, so I am not sure how it follows that the size is evidence of real bullets, especially when she is not supposed to use them.
Lots of assumptions. How do you know her first reaction wasn't "I need to get my head away from the bullet", or that she reflexively both tried to dodge the bullet and catch it?
The timeframe is based on the feat being completed before the bullet moves a certain distance, not how far Maki needs to move.
We can prove that Maki moved her head away before that timeframe.
We can't prove that Maki finished catching the bullet before that timeframe.
So you are using a speculative high-end.
So the other topic awaiting discussion and evaluation is the implication of Projection Sorcery on the verse's speed and scaling.
Just moments ago she was using rubber bullets of equal size, so I am not sure how it follows that the size is evidence of real bullets, especially when she is not supposed to use them.
If the timeframe is based on the position of the head, and she is no longer constrained by said timeframe because her head moved much further away than the distance the timeframe is based on, then head movement sounds very consequential to me. And this is not a minor detail; this is something that can massively inflate the result.
Lots of assumptions. How do you know her first reaction wasn't "I need to get my head away from the bullet", or that she reflexively both tried to dodge the bullet and catch it?
The timeframe is based on the feat being completed before the bullet moves a certain distance, not how far Maki needs to move.
We can prove that Maki moved her head away before that timeframe.
We can't prove that Maki finished catching the bullet before that timeframe.
So you are using a speculative high-end.
She needs to move half the width of her face within that timeframe. After that timeframe she can do whatever she wants; such as catching the bullet, moving her head further, swinging her body a far greater distance, etc.
So the other topic awaiting discussion and evaluation is the implication of Projection Sorcery on the verse's speed and scaling.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,053
- 5,983
This is what's on my mind
- 2,427
- 1,158
I am not understanding what you’re getting at here with the constrained timeframe/movement. Can you reword your sentence?
The same can be said for you, how do you know her first reaction wasn’t “Catch the bullet”? The difference is that mine is backed by the contextual evidence, the whole feat being her catching the bullet and stating it to be catching the bullet, and the visual evidence, the visuals prioritizing the bullet catching and for it being the main focus and not her head.
Her reflexively both catching and dodging literally falls under Dr._whiteee’s calc. That is essentially the feat is…
The first line: The timeframe is based on the distance between the bullet and Maki, the feat is completed within the timeframe. (I feel like that’s what you’re trying to say, but just worded badly).
Second line: Yes, this is true. We see Maki’s head being moved from in front of the bullet far off to the side. Yes, the momentum had moved Maki heaD as she caught the bullet.
Third line: False, we can prove that Maki did catch the bullet, as we have both visual and contextual evidence, visually showing us that Maki performed the feat within the timeframe and prioritizing it, as well as stating that Maki caught the bullet.
This is not how that works. It doesn’t matter how much she NEEDS to move but how much she DOES move. We don’t cut the movement down to whatever they need, we use their shown movement.
If a character is going to get hit by a normal rock, and they move 2m to the side. The feat would be them dodging the rock by moving 2m to the side, despite them only having to move 20cm. We don’t shorten their movement down to the need(20cm), we use the distance they are shown to move(2m). That's how calcing works, we use what's given.
That is the same with Maki’s feat, we don’t use the face width Maki NEEDS to move, we use the far greater distance that Maki DOES move. What you are doing ignoring what is happening in the feat, and using your own assumptions, heavily downplaying the feat.
There’s nothing to it really. Naobito and Naoyo using their projection sorcery at its top/best are faster than everyone but Gojo, as stated by the manga. It has no bearing on other character speeds. It’s just that simple.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,053
- 5,983
Uh? This is BS an actual BS
Why won't in verse statements about the characters actual speed have no bearing on their speed? Does that even make any sense to you?
- 2,427
- 1,158
Because the statement has nothing to do with any other character. Nothing in the statement affects other characters, it literally only refers to a very weakened Maki.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,053
- 5,983
A very weakened maki that is more powerful than any other version of maki and those who scaled to the previous maki?
- 4,432
- 4,481
The simple thing about Projection Sorcery is that we're given no hard limits for the speed that can be reached with it. We understand that the old head of the Zenin clan was supposed to be the fastest sorcerer around while Naoya was said to surpass subsonic speed. Without further elaboration, Projection Sorcery does little to change how we should treat speed in the series.
- Status
