Infinitely above baseline 2-A Ben 10 cosmology and Alien X

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So what if its their personal account? You'd be surprised by how many famous people as a whole let interns or people they trust run their accounts for them.

It doesnt matter if its their personal account or some fan page. Its very easily possible that they do not run those accounts themselves, like is the case for many authors and celebrities. And at that point, it becomes your burden of proof to prove they actually use those accounts themselves. Especially in the topic of using what they say to try and judge a verse's statistics.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

Ok then, Transform verse gets downgraded to 2-A then, because it relies on social media comments to infalte their verse.

@Dragomer we dont just assume because 1 social media account isnt run by just 1 person, that it applies to everyone, that's a proof by example fallacy. Unless you have proof that the writers for Ben 10 arent the ones using their social media account, your point is moot.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

Ok, so all WOG from social medias and forums gets disregarded, because there is a miniscule chance that they werent the ones using their account when making those statements?

 

[The_Causality]

It doesnt matter if its their personal account or some fan page. Its very easily possible that they do not run those accounts themselves, like is the case for many authors and celebrities. And at that point, it becomes your burden of proof to prove they actually use those accounts themselves. Especially in the topic of using what they say to try and judge a verse's statistics.

Not really? Personal account by definition is runned by one person, usually they aren't be used by many people, that's the basic assumption, so this is the opposition that need to prove that many people used this account despite it being personal and official.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Considering that Demonbane was a very huge offender for using social media comments as evidence, and they got the biggest downgrade ever seen on this wikia just a few days ago, I wouldnt be surprised if another verse was an offender of it.

But yeah, downgrade Transformers if thats the case and let fans try and make a case for them.

 

[Dragomer]

It apply to every pro at least and no, using your brain isn't a fallacy, I use Stan Lee because it's the most obvious case unless you want argue he's tweeting from beyond the grave.

No, you're the one who has to prove it's them and not an intern or a community manager, we know it's an industry standard to have community managers and intern take care of that or even their agent.

 

[Planck69]

Considering that Demonbane was a very huge offender for using social media comments as evidence, and they got the biggest downgrade ever seen on this wikia just a few days ago, I wouldnt be surprised if another verse was an offender of it.
But yeah, downgrade Transformers if thats the case and let fans try and make a case for them.

Small nitpick but the downgrade had nothing to do with WoG. Actually, the WoG was surprisingly accurate but we kept a standard of not using it to downgrade the verse. The downgrade was mostly due to the justification just being cross-scaling with the OG verse and vague exaggerated statements by characters.

Regardless, I do agree with you on this. Using one-word Twitter replies for scaling and adding in abilities is a pretty bad idea, especially if they're not substantiated by the canon of the work.

 

[AwkguyDB]

Honestly

Any WoG statement outside of the show, guidebooks or professional interviews should always be disregarded to be honest. Usually on a Twitter account when a fan is reaching for questions to be answered, the author is going to give that fan the answer THEY want to hear to not cause conflict between their fans or lose sales or viewership. More than not unless its an obvious question, the author would never want to disagree with their fan base's interpretation.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Small nitpick but the downgrade had nothing to do with WoG. Actually, the WoG was surprisingly accurate but we kept a standard of not using it to downgrade the verse.

Ah my bad here. Still, there are plenty of verses who are offenders of doing this besides Ben 10 in this thread. Godzilla used to (and IIRC still continues to) go off such evidence. And everyone knows DMC's story in regards to this.

@Awkguy

100% agree. Hell, guidebooks and things like databooks here are already not a gold standard. We only accept them as long as they dont conflict with the main canon of their verse. To me at least, interviews should be where we try and pivot towards overall because not only is the author giving serious answers there, but they are discussing with people whos job it is to extract answers like that out of them.

 

[AwkguyDB]

^Amen

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

It apply to every pro at least and no, using your brain isn't a fallacy, I use Stan Lee because it's the most obvious case unless you want argue he's tweeting from beyond the grave.
No, you're the one who has to prove it's them and not an intern or a community manager, we know it's an industry standard to have community managers and intern take care of that or even their agent.

Perhaps you should use your brain a little more. Stan Lee's account has millions of followers on Twitter, he has a huge brand, the account was and still is mostly used to promote his brand.

He didnt use his account to express his opinion about anything that wasnt related to his brand or other's brand. Whereas, the account of the Ben 10 writers are incredibly small in comparison, averaging less than 5 likes and retweets pr tweet, they dont promote anything, they use personal pronounce like " I " and "me" all the time and express their opinion about lots of stuff that has nothing to do with Ben 10 or Cartoons in general etc.

No one is hiring people to tweet on a personal account that averages less than 5 likes and retweets. You are out of your mind if you believe that, and again, they dont promote anything, so what would even be the purpose of hiring interns? You are just grasping at straws at this point. Do you think the Ben 10 writers hires interns to tweet at Donald Trump? Because that is something 1 of them do frequently.

 

[Planck69]

@Kukui

It's fine. Though there are verses with Twitter WoG being accurate and consistent with what's shown in the verse like GoW, people should remember that these are tthe exceptions rather than the rule. Hell, the only reason it even uses Twitter isn't because there isn't canon proof but because people can't wrap their heads around 3-A Kratos.

Here though, we get one-off answers that are never substantiated or even brought up in the canon of a work which is rather shaky for scaling an entire cosmology.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

Honestly
Any WoG statement outside of the show, guidebooks or professional interviews should always be disregarded to be honest. Usually on a Twitter account when a fan is reaching for questions to be answered, the author is going to give that fan the answer THEY want to hear to not cause conflict between their fans or lose sales or viewership. More than not unless its an obvious question, the author would never want to disagree with their fan base's interpretation.

Again, what about cases where a fan is NOT making a leading question, such as the cases above? How exactly is an author supposed to know what answer a fan want, if he isnt making a leading question? Are authors omniscient?

 

[Dragomer]

And yet it was verified as his account, almost as if verification doesn't mean the actual person is using it but just that it's a representent, almost like everything i said was accurate.

Except 'he' did, multiple time, about stuff like the gay movement and how it related to stuff or the civil right movement.

The size of it doesn't matter, the industry standard still apply to him unless proven otherwise, even a small author's account can ruin your entier brand if they go off the rail on social media after all.

No one......except litteraly everyone, that's litteraly what everyone does, do you really think they wouldn't keep a chokehold on their authors's account when all it take is one anti-gay rant or anti-christian rant to ******* ruin their brand and make them loss millions ?

If anything, being bigger is an indication it's less likely to be totaly controled since the author would have more leverage to have more freedom.

Yes, most blue checkmark do tweet at Trump, that's just partisan stuff, i don't see why an intern or social media manager / community manager wouldn't do it when even Stan Lee's was tweeting about the civil rights movement, the gay movement and even talked about US wars a few time.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

Civil Rights and LGBT movement is already part of Stan Lee's brand, hence why plenty of character are LGBT or reference the civil rights movement. The civil rights movement has been part of Stan Lee's brand since the 1960's, and they have had openly gay characters since 1992. It is part of his brand, so obviously he would tweet about them in support.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and are still just grasping at straws, him talking about those movements means he is supporting his brand. the bigger the account is the less likely it is to be controlled? What are you talking about? Do you think every small accoutn on Twitter is run by 1 person????? US wars has also been mentioned in Marvel plenty of times, they even referenced it several times in some of their most popular movies for christ sake. Stan Lee's brand covers US Wars, civil Rights and LGBT movement, of course he talks about them, you are only proving my point.

 

[AwkguyDB]

Honestly
Any WoG statement outside of the show, guidebooks or professional interviews should always be disregarded to be honest. Usually on a Twitter account when a fan is reaching for questions to be answered, the author is going to give that fan the answer THEY want to hear to not cause conflict between their fans or lose sales or viewership. More than not unless its an obvious question, the author would never want to disagree with their fan base's interpretation.

Again, what about cases where a fan is NOT making a leading question, such as the cases above? How exactly is an author supposed to know what answer a fan want, if he isnt making a leading question? Are authors omniscient?

I mean a great example is Derrick's "Six thought Omniversal Destruction" vs the Man of Action Q&A that completely contradicts the two stating that "If the Celetialsapiens were aware that either was coming and formed a group that could agree in advance to bond their power, they would survive. If they were not aware of the impending threat of destruction, they would not be able to agree in advance, and would be undone by either phenomenon."

Both WoG statements given due to fan questions and they completely contradict. In a professional setting they would more than certaintly come to some compromise or agreement on what should be accepted as law of the universe regardless of beliefs.

 

[Dragomer]

No, it's part of Stan Lee's person, a community manager just decided to use it for the tweeter account, debunking your 'personal thing' defense.

'y-y-y-y-y-you don't know !!!!! t-t-t-t-the straw !!!!!!!!!' Keep trying to pretend Nickelodeon would have no issue with an author saying Alien X erased all the gays, reality will stay there with actual industry standard and controled social media account and you'll still have to prove you didn't just talk to a random intern.

By that logic, if Stan Lee's account started talking about his shit, it would be on-brand because people take ***** in marvel comics ? you're reaching so hard.

Your bulshit prodding is still against the rules and still not evidence of any kind, it's not even WOG, it's 'random intern's word' until you can prove it's not a Stan Lee situation.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

Serious question, can we stop talking about WOG for now, because I'm fine with not using Derrick's statement anyway since he never was a writer for Ben 10. Instead, can someone adress any of the stuff in this reply?

To paraphrase what I wrote:

We know paralel timelines in Ben 10 exist simultaneously, because right before Gwen creates a new timeline in UA episode "Time Heals", Paradox warned her about what would happen if she did and informed her about the changes after she did eventually do it. Paradox wouldnt have any way of knowing anything about the timeline Gwen created unless he had already been there, which should be impossible since she had not created it when he warned her. Unless it already existed before she changed the future.

Paradox also knew about another possible timeline where he didnt stop the trans-dimensional beast, 200 years before the timeline would even exist.

Paradox doesnt know about all timelines tho, only the ones he has been to. He didnt know anything about No Watch Ben's timeline, or Eons' & his minions. He didnt know about the timeline where Hugo didnt turn into a trans-dimensional beast, which was the entire plot of episode "Paradox".

Futhermore Paradox links Quantum Mechanics with the Ben 10 cosmos , the fundemental principle of Quantum Mechanics' many world interpretation is that all possible universes are in quantum superpositions, meaning they all exist simultaneously. Paradox also said that all the "Ad infinitum" amount of timelines are " every bit as real as their own", which wouldnt make sense if they didnt all exist when he said it ( Paradox never actually implies that the number of timelines will eventually reach infinite, he says the number of universes IS "ad infinitum", as in it currently is)

A possible universe isnt real until it actually exist, a possible quantum outcome isnt real before it actually happens. And finally, Maltruant described the Time-stream as infinite, the Timestream being all timelines.

Edit: Diagon conquered 100 universes 1000 years before Ben prime found the Omnitrix, even though all universes branches off from the main timeline after Ben pirme finds the omnitrix.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Honestly this has allowed people to wank verses to hell and back. Very few authors are consistent enough in their WoG for twitter posts to be anything reliable. Exempting maybe GoW and a few other verses and even they use what's in the actual work as proof and the posts as supporting evidence as most.

Are you just saying this that because without twitter GoW crumbles?

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

You cant even prove that any of those WOG-statements from GoW arent just random intern's words, so you cant use them. Same with Transformers having an uncountable amount of universes, which isnt even mentioned ever in the series only through Facebook, meaning True form Unicron and others his tier gets downgraded from Tier Low 1-C to 2-A.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I feel like a thread should be made about Twitter posts and highlight it.

 

[Dragomer]

If social media is the only source for all those verse, i 200% agree on all those downgrades, Facebook is barely better than twitter due to the lower restriction on words per post but it ain't much credibility wise.

We already rejected statements from actualy licensed and sold guides, i see no reason to accept social media, interview and guides rank way above social media in term of credibility IMO.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

GoW doesn't really have any individual people who are WoG, only the whole company put together. Which they don't really care about Vs debates.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

On the account of Transformers and Unicorn, im gonna add in this.

Even if those social media posts had some kind of backing to them, we absolutely shouldnt accept any of them for such ludicriously high tiers like 2-A and higher.....like seriously?

Tiers like those shouldnt be so ******* easy to reach just because of small social media comments instead of in-canon material. An interview? Completely fine. Databook? Fine too. A guidebook? I can live with that. But social media??? It should be harder and harder to reach those tiers with actual concrete evidence. For us to sit here and casually accept such low-tier evidence like this to upgrade verses to tiers that other verses would normally need FAR bigger evidence to reach is just.......no.

 

[AwkguyDB]

On the account of Transformers and Unicorn, im gonna add in this.
Even if those social media posts had some kind of backing to them, we absolutely shouldnt accept any of them for such ludicriously high tiers like 2-A and higher.....like seriously?

Tiers like those shouldnt be so ******* easy to reach just because of small social media comments instead of in-canon material. An interview? Completely fine. Databook? Fine too. A guidebook? I can live with that. But social media??? It should be harder and harder to reach those tiers with actual concrete evidence. For us to sit here and casually accept such low-tier evidence like this to upgrade verses to tiers that other verses would normally need FAR bigger evidence to reach is just.......no.

This needs to be plastered on the policies page XD

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

I feel like a thread should be made about Twitter posts and highlight it.

I made it

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

So does anyone have any rebuttals to my post about all timelines existing simultaneously in Ben 10, and thus proving it is 2-A? Which is also why Tangram and Chronos are 2-A, and DBH isnt because there is no proof all timelines exist simultaneously.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

bump

 

[Crabwhale]

@ Kukui

Alright, first of all, calm down.

Second of all, you're making so many erroneous and completely unbacked statements here just to enhance a narrative that it's not funny.

Let me emphasize the sheer size and involvement of Ask Vector Prime: it was originally hosted on Hasbro's own website and afterwards hosted on Facebook by the guys that made BotCon, the official Transformers convention supported by Hasbro. It feature the return of Richard Newman, the original voice of Vector Prime himself, and introduced Jon Bailey as Optimus Prime, a role he would go on to reprise in Combiner Wars.

My point here is, like it or not, this is as official an outlet as you can get, with about as much backing from the parent company as there can be. If there is anyone, ANYONE qualified enough to give the downlow on the Transformers franchise, it's these guys.

Also, your statements are blatantly false. Transformers 2-A and Low 1-C are not at all based on Ask Vector Prime alone. Transformers universal clusters have infinite universes in them, as shown and stated in several comics. Unicron devouring the multiverse sure as Hell isn't from Ask Vector Prime, and neither are the idea of there being a potentially infinite number of universal streams or multiversal singularities, which existed ever since the Aligned continuity and the Binder of Revelation, if not sooner.

And even before that you have the 11-dimensional Alternity and Hytherion, who are 2-A as a collective at the same time.

Basically, we use Ask Vector Prime because it is an official source and because it's reliable, and doesn't clash, but in fact supports information we largely already have. Tl;dr don't talk about a situation without understanding it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Crabwhale

You do know I made that comment about Transformers before you clarified Transformer's case in the Author Statement staff thread right? Theres was no need for you to make that reply when Transformer's support was already pointed out and explained after Door made his thread. That, and I was told on this thread earlier that Transformers had nothing beyond social media statements to prove its 2-A/Low 1-C rating, which is what my comment was tackling into.

"But if we were to go with what they are proposing, then Vector Prime isn't 1-C, because Transform-verse being a low complex multiverse comes from a WOG Facebook statement where the author said to " a random schmuck" that Transformer-verse has uncountable amount of universes. The author wasnt answering "someone whos job it is to ask those kind of questions"."

"Ok then, Transform verse gets downgraded to 2-A then, because it relies on social media comments to infalte their verse."

^This is what was said to me, Dragomer and others earlier. And by Door himself. If we're wrong, thats perfectly fine. But don't pin this on me. If anything, blame the one who's giving misinformation about the verse your defending.

 

[AwkguyDB]

This is getting good

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

The only reference for why True form Unicron and The One's profiles are low 1-C is Ask Vector Prime, nothing else is referenced on their profile or any other Transformer page. And I never said that Transformers being 2-A is entirely dependant on Ask Vector Prime, only that them being low 1-C was.

 

[Crabwhale]

I'd rather not have you do that, thank you. I'm not trying to insinuate anything.

@ Kukui

I lost track of this thread when it got past a point where the messages became walls of texts that vaguely all sounded the same. Forgive me if I suddenly see a seemingly completely unrelated message and decide to argue against it. But if Transformers was being used as an example to just take any social media account as legitimate, yes that is completely incorrect.

 

[DemonicDude]

Ask Vector Prime same being who said Ben 10 lives somewhere in the Multiverse ?

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

...what?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Ask Vector Prime same being who said Ben 10 lives somewhere in the Multiverse ?

??

 

[AwkguyDB]

Ask Vector Prime same being who said Ben 10 lives somewhere in the Multiverse ?

 

[DemonicDude]

https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Ben_10 from

 

[Starbrand_Fan]

https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Ben_10 from

According to the Ben 10 wiki, that information is canon to TF but not to Ben 10...however that works.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah thats definitely not getting accepted here. Not only do we have very strict crossover rules in place here, but this isnt the first time where we rejected something like this.

IIRC, Dragon Ball was mentioned somewhere in the Marvel verse in some manner. Im 98% positive anyway. But we dont make the verses canon to each other at all.